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Re: [dsg] Lodewijk's story, was: Morality Dilema

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  • Kumara Bhikkhu
    ... I think the truth is somewhere in between. We can certainly endeavour (vayamati) to do something. If there s nothing we can do to make a difference, then
    Message 1 of 41 , Jul 1, 2011
      upasaka@... wrote thus at 20:19 30/06/2011:

      >Hi, Nina (and Kevin and Sarah) -
      >
      >In a message dated 6/30/2011 4:17:08 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
      >vangorko@... writes:
      >
      >Dear Kevin and Sarah,
      >yes, this is very helpful for us all. We never know the next moment,
      >it is conditioned. beyond control.
      >------------------------------------------------
      >H:
      > It seems me that there often IS a knowing of what "the next moment"
      >will bring.
      > Also, what is meant exactly by 'control'? Do not the 4 right efforts
      >constitute an instance of control? The fact that whatever happens does so
      >due to conditions and doesn't involve any agent of action, i.e., an actor,
      >does not, as I understand the matter, refute control. For me, willing that
      >results in physical or mental events is exactly what control is all about.
      >----------------------------------------------

      I think the truth is somewhere in between. We can certainly endeavour (vayamati) to do something. If there's nothing we can do to make a difference, then the practice is meaningless. Yet, the endeavour (vayama) is not the only factor that decides what actually happens, the result. Other factors have a say too. :-) These do not refer to only "external" factors. Our past conditioning can also be stronger then our present will.

      This is somewhat related to free will. Here's a very edifying video on that
      Neuroscience and Free Will http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N6S9OidmNZM

      kb
    • upasaka@aol.com
      Dear Bhante (and Nina, Kevin, and Sarah) - In a message dated 7/1/2011 4:21:55 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, kumara.bhikkhu@gmail.com writes: ... so ... actor,
      Message 41 of 41 , Jul 1, 2011
        Dear Bhante (and Nina, Kevin, and Sarah) -

        In a message dated 7/1/2011 4:21:55 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
        kumara.bhikkhu@... writes:

        upasaka@... wrote thus at 20:19 30/06/2011:

        >Hi, Nina (and Kevin and Sarah) -
        >
        >In a message dated 6/30/2011 4:17:08 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
        >vangorko@... writes:
        >
        >Dear Kevin and Sarah,
        >yes, this is very helpful for us all. We never know the next moment,
        >it is conditioned. beyond control.
        >------------------------------------------------
        >H:
        > It seems me that there often IS a knowing of what "the next moment"
        >will bring.
        > Also, what is meant exactly by 'control'? Do not the 4 right efforts
        >constitute an instance of control? The fact that whatever happens does
        so
        >due to conditions and doesn't involve any agent of action, i.e., an
        actor,
        >does not, as I understand the matter, refute control. For me, willing
        that
        >results in physical or mental events is exactly what control is all
        about.
        >----------------------------------------------

        I think the truth is somewhere in between. We can certainly endeavour
        (vayamati) to do something. If there's nothing we can do to make a difference,
        then the practice is meaningless. Yet, the endeavour (vayama) is not the
        only factor that decides what actually happens, the result. Other factors
        have a say too. :-) These do not refer to only "external" factors. Our past
        conditioning can also be stronger then our present will.
        ------------------------------------------------
        H:
        All correct, certainly. In writing 'control' I was following along,
        not wanting to get overly precise at the time. In the past I have used
        'influence' rather than 'control', which is clearer.
        For SURE "we" are not in control in the sense of entirely determining
        results, but it is also the case that our intentions and actions have
        important effect. When some folks write that there is no control and that
        whatever happens does so entirely due to conditions, it is misleading in that it
        suggests the idea that intention and intentional actions are not among
        conditions. They ARE conditions, and very IMORTANT ones at that.
        -------------------------------------------------



        This is somewhat related to free will. Here's a very edifying video on that
        Neuroscience and Free Will http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N6S9OidmNZM
        --------------------------------------------------
        H:
        It seems to me that there certainly are frequent instances of willing,
        but there is no FREE will if that means "unconditioned willing".
        -------------------------------------------------



        kb
        ================================
        With metta,
        Howard


        Seamless Interdependence

        /A change in anything is a change in everything/

        (Anonymous)





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