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Re: [dsg] Re: A Sotapanna- Bon-sin-san

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  • sarah abbott
    Dear Dieter, Shalini & Han, ... http://www.buddhanet.net/budsas/uni/u-37bd/37bd-e03.htm ... ... S: Many thx for your assistance, Dieter & Han. In short,
    Message 1 of 22 , May 31, 2011
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      Dear Dieter, Shalini & Han,

      --- On Sat, 28/5/11, Dieter Moeller <moellerdieter@...> wrote:
      >Han may provide more details, esp. the literal translation.. useful perhaps following footnote from 'Requisites..' Ven.L.S. :

      http://www.buddhanet.net/budsas/uni/u-37bd/37bd-e03.htm

      >[7] Bon-sin-san is a term in the Burmese language, signifying a type of Stream-Winner (sotàpanna) that will reach final deliverance in Arahatship after numerous rebirths in successively higher stages of existences.
      ...
      S: Many thx for your assistance, Dieter & Han.

      In short, "Bon-sin-san" is a Burmese term referring to sotapannas.

      Shalini's original question was:

      "Abhidhammata Sangaha commentary mentions about "cula sotapanna" and Ledi
      Sayadaw's 'Requisites of Enlightenment' mentions "bon-sin-san" Sotapanna. Both of which I am not really able to understand of how this is achieved, what are its characteristics similar to what is mentioned about the Magga phala for a Sotapanna and the characteristics like 'a Sotapanna is free of the first three fetters among ten'. Has anybody read of these in any other commentaries and understood more about this? "

      S: So in summary, from the discussions, a cula-sotapanna refers to the 2nd stage of insight, the "lesser sotapanna". The "Bon-sin-san" on the other hand is a non-Pali expression referring in Burmese to a sotapanna.

      It is the sotapatti-magga citta (at the moment of enlightenment) that the first three fetters are eradicated. This citta is followed by the phala cittas (fruition consciousness) of the sotapanna.

      I hope it's all cleared up now, Shalini.

      Metta

      Sarah
      ======
    • han tun
      Dear Sarah, Dieter, & Shalini, Just one small addition. The literal meaning of Bon-sin-san. Bon comes from the Pali word bhuumi, the realm. Sin (Burmese word)
      Message 2 of 22 , Jun 1, 2011
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        Dear Sarah, Dieter, & Shalini,

        Just one small addition.

        The literal meaning of Bon-sin-san.

        Bon comes from the Pali word bhuumi, the realm.
        Sin (Burmese word) = sequentially one after the other.
        San (Burmese word) = to abide, to enjoy.

        That is how [Note 7] in Ledi Sayadaw's Bodhipakkhiya Dipanii comes to be:
        "Beings who are bound to attain higher and higher stages of sanctity."

        And also Sarah's remark: "The "Bon-sin-san" on the other hand is a non-Pali expression referring in Burmese to a sotaapanna."

        Kind regards,
        Han

        --- On Wed, 6/1/11, sarah abbott <sarahprocterabbott@...> wrote:
        Dear Dieter, Shalini & Han,

        >[7] Bon-sin-san is a term in the Burmese language, signifying a type of Stream-Winner (sotàpanna) that will reach final deliverance in Arahatship after numerous rebirths in successively higher stages of existences.
        ...
      • Shalini S
        Dear All, Thanks for the detailed replies to my question. It was very gladenning to read such profusely shared knowledge about the Sotapanna.   Only one
        Message 3 of 22 , Jun 1, 2011
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          Dear All,
          Thanks for the detailed replies to my question. It was very gladenning to read such profusely shared knowledge about the Sotapanna.
           
          Only one confusion then remains:
          Nina van Gorkham's detailed email on the Sotapanna, there is a repeated emphasis that any kind of Sotapanna is reborn only at the most 7 lifetimes.

          In other mails by Han, Dieter and others, although cula-sotapanna is mentioned as a person who is not really a sotapanna, the bon-sin-san sotapanna however is mentioned as one who has already attained the magga-phala and is indeed a Stream-winner who is an Ariyan sure to attain to Arahatship, if I understand correctly.
           
          However,  there is still some confusion in my mind in understanding the Bon-sin-san Sotapanna as just a Burmese term for Sotapanna:
           
          Ledi Sayadaw's book states this in a paragraph 
          "The task of extinguishing the unwholesome acts, arisen and not-arisen (akusala kammas of uppanna and anuppanna) consists of ridding oneself of Personality Belief (sakkàya-ditthi) and no more. If sakkàya-ditthi is uprooted, the two akusala kammas (unwholesome volitional actions) are entirely extinguished. "Bon-sin-san" Sotàpannas [7] like Visàkhà and Anàthapindika, who are infinitely numerous among humans, devas, and brahmàs, are beings who have obtained release from the state of sinking and drifting in the great whirlpool of samsàra (round of rebirths) from the moment Personality Belief (sakkàya-ditthi) was uprooted. They are beings who have attained the first stage of Nibbàna called sa-upàdisesa nibbàna (Nibbàna with the five constituent groups of existence remaining). Although they are liable to wander in the round of rebirths for many more lives and many more world-cycles, they are no longer worldly beings. Having become "Bon-sin-san"
          Ariyas (Noble Ones), they are beings of the lokuttara (Supramundane) sphere. Here ends the part showing uppanna and anuppanna akusala kammas from which Sotàpannas have obtained their release."
           
          There is another statement by L.S, which perhaps led me to this confusion:
          "If at any time Personality Belief disappears, all the new anuppanna akusala kammas also disappear, even at that instant, from the personality of the beings concerned, leaving no residue. Here, "disappear" means that there will be no occasion, starting from the next instant, in future succession of lives and future succession of world-cycles, when new akusala kammas are perpetrated. Throughout future anamatagga samsàra (beginningless round of rebirths), those beings will not commit, even in their dreams, any akusala kamma (unwholesome volitional action) such as pànàtipàta (killing any living being)."

          I referred to the above words from this link:
          http://www.buddhanet.net/budsas/uni/u-37bd/37bd-e03.htm
           
          So my question is: Does the highlighted words mean that bon-sin-sans are to be born any number of rebirths or world-cycles or just the seven?? Does Bon-sin-san Sotapannas have removed only one fetter that is Sakkaya ditthi and not the other two, which is vichikiccha and the attachment to rites and rituals??
           
          thanks and much metta,
          Shalini
           
           
          --- On Wed, 6/1/11, han tun <hantun1@...> wrote:
          >Just one small addition.

          The literal meaning of Bon-sin-san.

          Bon comes from the Pali word bhuumi, the realm.
          Sin (Burmese word) = sequentially one after the other.
          San (Burmese word) = to abide, to enjoy.

          That is how [Note 7] in Ledi Sayadaw's Bodhipakkhiya Dipanii comes to be:
          "Beings who are bound to attain higher and higher stages of sanctity."

          And also Sarah's remark: "The "Bon-sin-san" on the other hand is a non-Pali expression referring in Burmese to a sotaapanna."
          <...>
        • Nina van Gorkom
          Dear Shalini, ... N: The sotaapanna (no matter one calls him or her bon-sin-san or not) will be reborn not more than seven times, thus, seven or less. Always
          Message 4 of 22 , Jun 1, 2011
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            Dear Shalini,
            Op 1-jun-2011, om 13:18 heeft Shalini S het volgende geschreven:

            > So my question is: Does the highlighted words mean that bon-sin-
            > sans are to be born any number of rebirths or world-cycles or just
            > the seven?? Does Bon-sin-san Sotapannas have removed only one
            > fetter that is Sakkaya ditthi and not the other two, which is
            > vichikiccha and the attachment to rites and rituals??
            ------
            N: The sotaapanna (no matter one calls him or her bon-sin-san or not)
            will be reborn not more than seven times, thus, seven or less. Always
            three fetters are removed: personality belief, doubt and attachment
            to rites and rituals. The last one is wrong practice, stemming from
            wrong view. As to doubt: realities are seen as they are, no more
            doubt about naama and ruupa. Thus, you can see the connection between
            these three fetters.

            Nina.


            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Shalini S
            Dear All, Just after my previous email I noticed a few words in Ledi Sayadaw s book, which partially answered my question but the confusion is now
            Message 5 of 22 , Jun 1, 2011
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              Dear All,
              Just after my previous email I noticed a few words in Ledi Sayadaw's book, which partially answered my question but the confusion is now solidified... .
               
              Because of noticing the following contradiction:
               
              From Nina's email:
              “Pañcappakaraùatthakathå”, Commentary to the 
              “Puggalapaññatti”  says:
              "Some sotåpannas are inclined to life in the cycle, they enjoy the 
              process of existence and they traverse different lives. The following 
              people had this inclination:
              Anåthapiùèika
              the layfollower Visåkhå
              Cúlaratha deva
              Mahåratha deva
              Anekavaùùa deva
              Sakka, King of the devas
              Någadatta deva

              but they were reborn not 
              more than seven times and then attained arahatship. ......”
               
               
              Editor's notes in Ledi Sayadaw's Requisites..... book:
              Bon-sin-san is a term in the Burmese language, signifying a type of Stream-Winner (sotàpanna) that will reach final deliverance in Arahatship after numerous rebirths in successively higher stages of existences. This term has no equivalent in the Sutta texts where only those are called Sotàpannas who have, at the utmost, seven rebirths before them, among men and deities. Bon-sin-san is a concept familiar in Burmese doctrinal tradition, for which reference is made to the following commentarial passages which are said to imply the sense of the term:
              - Comy. to Indriya-Samyutta, Chalindriya Vagga, Ekabiji Sutta, commenting on the word sattakkhattuparamo.
              - Comy. to Dìgha Nikàya, Sakkapanha Sutta (at the end), commenting on the words so nivàso bhavissati.
              - Comy. to Puggala-pannatti (Pancappakarana Atthakatha), Ekaka-niddesa, commenting on the word ekabiji.
               
              Any comments on this? Especially has anybody come across a Burmese master's words on this particular topic of Bon-sin-san ? Seems interesting to know that if the comments in L.S book is true , one can actually become a Ariyan and yet have numerous rebirths in better planes of existence. I wonder how that is attained... seems enticing.. :-), oh well that is a worldling's akusala comment of craving I must admit.
               
              Thanks
              Shalini


              Serenity comes to those who trade expectations with acceptance.

              --- On Wed, 6/1/11, Shalini S <shalnew@...> wrote:


              From: Shalini S <shalnew@...>
              Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: A Sotapanna- Bon-sin-san
              To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com
              Date: Wednesday, June 1, 2011, 6:18 AM


               



              Dear All,
              Thanks for the detailed replies to my question. It was very gladenning to read such profusely shared knowledge about the Sotapanna.
               
              Only one confusion then remains:
              Nina van Gorkham's detailed email on the Sotapanna, there is a repeated emphasis that any kind of Sotapanna is reborn only at the most 7 lifetimes.

              In other mails by Han, Dieter and others, although cula-sotapanna is mentioned as a person who is not really a sotapanna, the bon-sin-san sotapanna however is mentioned as one who has already attained the magga-phala and is indeed a Stream-winner who is an Ariyan sure to attain to Arahatship, if I understand correctly.
               <....>
            • Shalini S
              Thanks Nina. I missed this email. I have put down some of the contradictions that I see in the commentaries given in Ledi Sayadaw s book and the commentary
              Message 6 of 22 , Jun 1, 2011
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                Thanks Nina. I missed this email. I have put down some of the contradictions that I see in the commentaries given in Ledi Sayadaw's book and the commentary that you quoted in another email. And it looks like L.S book does say that there are more than seven rebirths for a bon-sin-san email. I have quoted the specific paragraphs in this regard in the other email.
                 
                I would love to hear your perspective/comments on this and if you come across any other articles/books by the Sangha to clarify this.
                 
                Thanks and metta
                Shalini

                Serenity comes to those who trade expectations with acceptance.

                --- On Wed, 6/1/11, Nina van Gorkom <vangorko@...> wrote:


                From: Nina van Gorkom <vangorko@...>
                <...>
                N: The sotaapanna (no matter one calls him or her bon-sin-san or not)
                will be reborn not more than seven times, thus, seven or less. Always
                three fetters are removed: personality belief, doubt and attachment
                to rites and rituals. The last one is wrong practice, stemming from
                wrong view. As to doubt: realities are seen as they are, no more
                doubt about naama and ruupa. Thus, you can see the connection between
                these three fetters.
              • Nina van Gorkom
                Dear Shalini, ... N: Ledi Sayadaw speaks about numerous rebirths, but according to the texts not more than seven. As to the words, with a single seed,
                Message 7 of 22 , Jun 1, 2011
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                  Dear Shalini,
                  Op 1-jun-2011, om 14:48 heeft Shalini S het volgende geschreven:

                  > Comy. to Puggala-pannatti (Pancappakarana Atthakatha), Ekaka-
                  > niddesa, commenting on the word ekabiji.
                  >
                  > Any comments on this? Especially has anybody come across a Burmese
                  > master's words on this particular topic of Bon-sin-san ? Seems
                  > interesting to know that if the comments in L.S book is true , one
                  > can actually become a Ariyan and yet have numerous rebirths in
                  > better planes of existence. I wonder how that is attained... seems
                  > enticing.. :-), oh well that is a worldling's akusala comment of
                  > craving I must admit.
                  -------
                  N: Ledi Sayadaw speaks about numerous rebirths, but according to the
                  texts not more than seven.
                  As to the words, with a single seed, ekab�jin, it is said that seed
                  means the seed of the khandhas. This sot�panna germinates the
                  khandhas only once more . He has to assume only one more existence
                  and thus he is called �single seeded�.
                  Only the arahat has eradicated clinging to birth. The sotaapanna may
                  still cling to birth, but he also knows that it is due to conditions
                  that one still has to continue in samsara. He knows: not a person is
                  reborn, there are only naama and ruupa. He also knows, this clinging
                  is only a conditioned naama, it arises because he has accumulated
                  clinging.
                  ------
                  Nina.



                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • han tun
                  Dear Shalini, Nina, and All, [Shalini]: Especially has anybody come across a Burmese master s words on this particular topic of Bon-sin-san ? [Han]: Yes, there
                  Message 8 of 22 , Jun 1, 2011
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                    Dear Shalini, Nina, and All,

                    [Shalini]: Especially has anybody come across a Burmese master's words on this particular topic of Bon-sin-san ?

                    [Han]: Yes, there is another Burmese Sayadaw [there may be more] who wrote that Bon-sin-san sotaapanna can live more than seven lives. Ashin Obhaasaabhiva.msa Mahaa Thera wrote a book in Burmese called "Sammaa-magga"nga-pa~nha". The book is on Question-and-Answer format, and Sayadaw described four types of Sotaapanna.

                    (i) sattakkhattuparama sotaapanna who is reborn in human and deva worlds, at most, seven times.
                    (ii). kolankola sotaapanna who is reborn in human and deva worlds, two to six times.
                    (iii). ekabíjin sotaapanna who is reborn in human and deva worlds, only one time.
                    (iv) another type of sotaapanna who is reborn in human, deva and brahma worlds (except five suddhaavaasa realms) for several times, like Anaathapindika and Visaakhaa. [Han: These sotaapannas are called Bon-sin-san sotaapannas.]

                    ---------------

                    On the other hand, Nina is very firm (with various quotes to support her).
                    [Nina]: The sotaapanna (no matter one calls him or her bon-sin-san or not) will be reborn not more than seven times, thus, seven or less.

                    [Han]: Therefore, the best way to solve this problem is, please consider [Bon-sin-san and several births] as a concept familiar in Burmese doctrinal tradition, and leave the matter at that.

                    Kind regards,
                    Han
                  • Nina van Gorkom
                    Dear Shalini, Han answered this question very well. Nina. ... [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    Message 9 of 22 , Jun 2, 2011
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                      Dear Shalini,
                      Han answered this question very well.
                      Nina.
                      Op 1-jun-2011, om 16:04 heeft Shalini S het volgende geschreven:

                      > And it looks like L.S book does say that there are more than seven
                      > rebirths for a bon-sin-san email. I have quoted the specific
                      > paragraphs in this regard in the other email.
                      >
                      > I would love to hear your perspective/comments on this and if you
                      > come across any other articles/books by the Sangha to clarify this.
                      >



                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • Vince
                      Dear Nina ... thanks so much for the work this summary. I have saved it to search more with all these names and sources. Very useful :) These days I was
                      Message 10 of 22 , Jun 2, 2011
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                        Dear Nina

                        you wrote:

                        > N: I translated a Thai treatise:
                        > < Issue of Analysis: Will the streamwinner, sot?panna, not be reborn
                        > more than seven times, or more than that? [..]

                        thanks so much for the work this summary. I have saved it to search more with
                        all these names and sources. Very useful :)

                        These days I was reading about one of the names you cited: Visakha the layman.
                        He appears in a commentary of Culavedalla Sutta from Mahasi Sayadaw. Visakha was
                        quite attached to lust when he was a sotapanna until he reached Anagami. At the
                        Anagami state also started the complaints of his wife, forcing him to give an
                        explanation. It shows about the previous situation of attachment.


                        > N: Some medicines to make the blood thinner
                        it is said the Yunnan Pu-erh tea is very good for that.
                        Hope he is in good health again


                        best,



                        Vince.
                      • Nina van Gorkom
                        Dear Vince, Thank you for your good wishes. Teas are always good, I think. Nina. ... [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        Message 11 of 22 , Jun 3, 2011
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                          Dear Vince,
                          Thank you for your good wishes. Teas are always good, I think.
                          Nina.
                          Op 3-jun-2011, om 0:54 heeft Vince het volgende geschreven:

                          > Some medicines to make the blood thinner
                          > it is said the Yunnan Pu-erh tea is very good for that.
                          > Hope he is in good health again



                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • sarah abbott
                          Dear Han, Shalini, Dieter, Nina & all, ... .... ... process of existence and they traverse different lives. The following people had this inclination:
                          Message 12 of 22 , Jun 3, 2011
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                            Dear Han, Shalini, Dieter, Nina & all,

                            --- On Sun, 29/5/11, han tun <hantun1@...> wrote:

                            >In the Manuals of Buddhism by Ledi Sayadaw, under Bodhipakkhiya Dipanii, we the following text only.

                            >'Bon-sin-san'[7] Sotapannas, like Visakha and Anathapindika, who are infinitely numerous among humans, devas, and Brahmas, are beings who have obtained release from the state of sinking and drifting in the great whirlpool of samsara (round of rebirths) from the moment sakkaya-ditthi was uprooted. They are beings who have attained the first stage of Nibbana called sa-upadisesa-nibbana (Nibbana with the five constituent groups of existence remaining). Although they are liable to wander in the round of rebirths for many more lives and many more world-cycles, they are no longer worldly beings. Having become 'bon-sin-san' ariyas (noble ones), they are beings of the lokuttara (supramundane sphere).
                            ....
                            S: Here it sounds as though the "bon-sin-san" is referring to the sattakkhattuparama sotapanna (the one reborn 7 times at most), the one with the weakest understanding of the sotapannas, as described here in the Thai Treatise which Nina translated and presented, here from the commentary to the Puggalapannatti:

                            >N: "Some sotapannas are inclined to life in the cycle, they enjoy the
                            process of existence and they traverse different lives. The following
                            people had this inclination:
                            Anathapindika
                            the layfollower Visakha
                            Cularatha deva
                            Maharatha deva
                            Anekavanna deva
                            Sakka, King of the devas
                            Nagadatta deva

                            "All these people had attachment to life in the cycle of birth and
                            death. They were born in the six classes of deva worlds, beginning
                            with the lowest class, and they purified their minds in those deva
                            worlds. They were established in the plane of akanittha 4 and then
                            attained parinibbana. ... The sotapannas who were reborn in the human
                            world and were there reborn again, were reborn not more than seven
                            times and then attained arahatship. The sotapannas who were reborn in
                            the deva worlds were there reborn again, but they were reborn not
                            more than seven times and then attained arahatship. ......"

                            Metta

                            Sarah
                            =======
                          • han tun
                            Dear Sarah (Shalini, Dieter, Nina & Burmese friends), The text from Bodhipakkhiya Dipanii by Ledi Sayadaw:
                            Message 13 of 22 , Jun 3, 2011
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                              Dear Sarah (Shalini, Dieter, Nina & Burmese friends),

                              The text from Bodhipakkhiya Dipanii by Ledi Sayadaw:

                              < 'Bon-sin-san'[7] Sotapannas, like Visakha and Anathapindika, who are infinitely numerous among humans, devas, and Brahmas, are beings who have obtained release from the state of sinking and drifting in the great whirlpool of samsara (round of rebirths) from the moment sakkaya-ditthi was uprooted. They are beings who have attained the first stage of Nibbana called sa-upadisesa-nibbana (Nibbana with the five constituent groups of existence remaining). Although they are liable to wander in the round of rebirths for many more lives and many more world-cycles, they are no longer worldly beings. Having become 'bon-sin-san' ariyas (noble ones), they are beings of the lokuttara (supramundane sphere).>

                              [Sarah] Here it sounds as though the "bon-sin-san" is referring to the sattakkhattuparama sotapanna (the one reborn 7 times at most), the one with the weakest understanding of the sotapannas, as described here in the Thai Treatise which Nina translated and presented, here from the commentary to the Puggalapannatti:

                              ---------------------

                              [Han] No, Sarah, Ledi Sayadaw referred to exactly what he had written, i.e., 'Bon-sin-san' Sotaapannas.

                              Among Burmese Sayadaws, there is a separate type of sotaapanna called Bon-sin-san Sotaapanna (different from sattakkhattuparama sotaapanna, kolankola sotaapanna, and ekabíjin sotaapanna).

                              I have found it written in at least two Burmese books that I have at hand. If I were in Rangoon I would be able to quote more.

                              (1) "Sammaa-magga"nga-pa~nha" written by Aggamahaapa.n.dita Ashin Obhaasaabhiva.msa.

                              (2) Abhidhammahattha Sangaha .Tiikaa ("Thingyo-bhaa-saa .Tiikaa" in Burmese) written by Aggamahaapa.n.dita Ashin Janakaabhiva.msa (Mahaa-gandhaaron Sayadaw).

                              In both of these books, Bon-sin-san sotaapannas are mentioned.

                              In the first book, it is written that Bon-sin-san sotaapannas are the ones who are reborn in human, deva and brahma worlds (except five suddhaavaasa realms) for several times, like Anaathapindika and lay-follower Visakha. The other three sotaapannas are the ones who are reborn in human and deva worlds. [For Burmese friends, it is on page 231 of the book.]

                              In the second book, it is written that there are several Bon-sin-san sotaapannas, such as Sakka the deva-king, who is now in Taavati.msa, and who will "bon-sin-san", i.e., will go up to higher and higher realms and will finally attain parinibbaana. Sayadaw added that sattakkhattuparama sotaapanna and kolankola sotaapanna are the ones who are reborn in human and deva worlds, and ekabíjin sotaapanna is the one who is reborn in human world. But Bon-sin-san sotaapannas can go upto Brahma world. [For Burmese friends, it is on page 721 of the book.]

                              Kind regards,
                              Han
                            • Shalini S
                              Thanks so much for this information. I am very gladdenned to be interacting with people who have access to Burmese books and Thai books and who can read and
                              Message 14 of 22 , Jun 3, 2011
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                                Thanks so much for this information. I am very gladdenned to be interacting with people who have access to Burmese books and Thai books and who can read and understand them. They are all such a treasure of Dhamma knowledge. Bahusacca is one of the seven saDhammas , meaning "highly learned by means of reading and experience". I find in this group, a lot of Bahusacca Sangha and I am glad I came across this group.

                                Thanks again,
                                much metta,
                                Shalini

                                --- On Fri, 6/3/11, han tun <hantun1@...> wrote:
                                <...>
                                [Han] No, Sarah, Ledi Sayadaw referred to exactly what he had written, i.e., 'Bon-sin-san' Sotaapannas.

                                Among Burmese Sayadaws, there is a separate type of sotaapanna called Bon-sin-san Sotaapanna (different from sattakkhattuparama sotaapanna, kolankola sotaapanna, and ekabíjin sotaapanna).

                                I have found it written in at least two Burmese books that I have at hand. If I were in Rangoon I would be able to quote more.

                                (1) "Sammaa-magga"nga-pa~nha" written by Aggamahaapa.n.dita Ashin Obhaasaabhiva.msa.

                                (2) Abhidhammahattha Sangaha .Tiikaa ("Thingyo-bhaa-saa .Tiikaa" in Burmese) written by Aggamahaapa.n.dita Ashin Janakaabhiva.msa (Mahaa-gandhaaron Sayadaw).

                                In both of these books, Bon-sin-san sotaapannas are mentioned.

                                In the first book, it is written that Bon-sin-san sotaapannas are the ones who are reborn in human, deva and brahma worlds (except five suddhaavaasa realms) for several times, like Anaathapindika and lay-follower Visakha. The other three sotaapannas are the ones who are reborn in human and deva worlds. [For Burmese friends, it is on page 231 of the book.]

                                In the second book, it is written that there are several Bon-sin-san sotaapannas, such as Sakka the deva-king, who is now in Taavati.msa, and who will "bon-sin-san", i.e., will go up to higher and higher realms and will finally attain parinibbaana. Sayadaw added that sattakkhattuparama sotaapanna and kolankola sotaapanna are the ones who are reborn in human and deva worlds, and ekabíjin sotaapanna is the one who is reborn in human world. But Bon-sin-san sotaapannas can go upto Brahma world. [For Burmese friends, it is on page 721 of the book.]
                                <...>
                              • sarah abbott
                                Dear Han, (Shalini, Dieter, Nina & Burmese friends) Thank you for your further research and clarifications. I also studied a little further. First, in terms of
                                Message 15 of 22 , Jun 4, 2011
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                                  Dear Han, (Shalini, Dieter, Nina & Burmese friends)

                                  Thank you for your further research and clarifications. I also studied a little further.

                                  First, in terms of commentaries on the Abhidhammattha Sangaha, B.Bodhi writes the following in his introduction to CMA:

                                  Owing to its extreme concision, the Abhidhammattha Sangaha cannot be easily understood without explanation. Therefore to elucidate its terse and pithy synopsis of the Abhidhamma philosophy, a great number of tikas or commentaries have been written upon it. In fact, this work has probably stimulated more commentaries than any other Pali text, written not only in the Pali language but also in Burmese, Sinhala, Thai, etc. Since the fifteenth century Burma has been the international center of Abhidhamma studies, and therefore we find many commentaries written on it by Burmese scholars both in Pali and in Burmese. Commentaries on the Sangaha in Pali alone number nineteen, of which the following are the most important:

                                  "    Abhidhammatthasangaha-Tika, also known as the Porana-Tika, "the Old Commentary." This is a very small tika written in Sri Lanka in the twelfth century by an elder named Acariya Navavimalabuddhi.
                                      Abhidhammatthavibhavini-Tika, or in brief, the Vibhavini, written by Acariya Sumangalasami, pupil of the eminent Sri Lankan elder Sariputta Mahasami, also in the twelfth century. This tika quickly superceded the Old Commentary and is generally considered the most profound and reliable exegetical work on the Sangaha. In Burma this work is known as tika-gyaw, "the Famous Commentary." The author is greatly respected for his erudition and mastery of the Abhidhamma. He relies heavily on older authorities such as the Abhidhamma-Anutika and the Visuddhimagga-Mahatika (also known as the Paramatthamanjusa). Although Ledi Sayadaw (see below) criticized the Vibhavini extensively in his own commentary on the Sangaha, its popularity has not diminished but indeed has even increased, and several Burmese scholars have risen to defend it against Ledi Sayadaw's criticisms.
                                      Sankhepa-vannana, written in the sixteenth century by Bhadanta Saddhamma Jotipala, also known as Chapada Mahathera, a Burmese monk who visited Sri Lanka during the reign of Parakramabahu VI of Kotte (fifteenth century).[14]
                                      Paramatthadipani-Tika, "The Elucidation of the Ultimate Meaning," by Ledi Sayadaw. Ledi Sayadaw of Burma (1846-1923) was one of the greatest scholar-monks and meditation masters of the Theravada tradition in recent times. He was the author of over seventy manuals on different aspects of Theravada Buddhism, including philosophy, ethics, meditation practice, and Pali grammar. His tika created a sensation in the field of Abhidhamma studies because he pointed out 325 places in the esteemed Vibhavini-tika where he alleged that errors and misinterpretations had occurred, though his criticisms also set off a reaction in defense of the older work.
                                      Ankura-Tika, by Vimala Sayadaw. This tika was written fifteen years after the publication of the Paramatthadipani and supports the commonly accepted opinions of the Vibhavini against Ledi Sayadaw's criticisms.
                                      Navanita-Tika, by the Indian scholar Dhammananda Kosambi, published originally in devanagari script in 1933. The title of this work means literally "The Butter Commentary," and it is so called probably because it explains the Sangaha in a smooth and simple manner, avoiding philosophical controversy."
                                  ***
                                  S: Now, turning to the Abhidhammatthavibhavini-Tika ("generally considered the most profound and reliable exegetical work on the Sangaha") itself on the question of sotapannas (PTS translation), I was interested to read the following in Ch 9 after the first quote from the Sangaha (CMA Pali & translation) itself:

                                  "Ettha pana sotaapattimagga.m bhaavetvaa di.t.thivicikicchaapahaanena pahiinaapaayagaano sattakkhattuparao sotaapanno naama hoti."

                                  "Herein, having developed the path of stream-entry, by abandoning wrong views and doubt one becomes a stream-enterer, one who has escaped from rebirth in woeful states and will be reborn at most seven more times."

                                  S: Now the commentary note with its interesting last line on this:

                                  " 'Who has at most seven times' means he takes relinking in the happy destinies of the sense-world seven times, on seven occasions, at most; what is meant is that he will not return to sense-sphere existence for an eighth time. With reference to this it is said, 'They do not take an eighth existence'; (Sn 230) ***but he can, say the teachers, go to the happy existences of the form and formless worlds following that seventh occasion.***"

                                  S: So there we have a little ambiguity on this point "say the teachers" as found in the Abhidhammatthavibhavini-Tika. I had understood from other texts, including those quoted in Nina's post below, that "at most seven times" was meant to refer to all realms.

                                  In other texts, as discussed, we read about the 3 types of sotapanna (as summarised here from B.Bodhi's Guide note):

                                  "1) One who will be reborn seven times at most in the human and celestial worlds (sattakkhattuparama)
                                  2) One who takes birth in good families two or three times before attaining Arahantship (kolankola)
                                  3) One who will be reborn only once more before attaining the goal (ekabiijii)

                                  S: The sotapannas mentioned in the Abhidhammatthavibhavini-Tika as "say the teachers" possibly going to "happy existences in the form and formless worlds following that seventh occasion" still fall under the sattakkhattuparama, the first kind of sotapanna, according to this text.

                                  So, in (my) conclusion, from this text, is that there may be some basis in the ancient texts "say the teachers" for the suggestion that the expression "at most seven times" may refer to sense-sphere existence only. However I don't see a basis for a separate 4th category of sotapannas.

                                  Of course, the words or terms or numbering may not in themselves be of significance. After all, the Path is about developing understanding of realities now!

                                  [I'll also give the link again to Nina's post with her translation of the Thai study issue on this point with further references:
                                  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/115393%5d

                                  Metta

                                  Sarah

                                  --- On Sat, 4/6/11, han tun <hantun1@...> wrote:
                                  >Among Burmese Sayadaws, there is a separate type of sotaapanna called Bon-sin-san Sotaapanna (different from sattakkhattuparama sotaapanna, kolankola sotaapanna, and ekabíjin sotaapanna).

                                  >I have found it written in at least two Burmese books that I have at hand. If I were in Rangoon I would be able to quote more.

                                  >(1) "Sammaa-magga"nga-pa~nha" written by Aggamahaapa.n.dita Ashin Obhaasaabhiva.msa.

                                  >(2) Abhidhammahattha Sangaha .Tiikaa ("Thingyo-bhaa-saa .Tiikaa" in Burmese) written by Aggamahaapa.n.dita Ashin Janakaabhiva.msa (Mahaa-gandhaaron Sayadaw).

                                  >In both of these books, Bon-sin-san sotaapannas are mentioned.

                                  >In the first book, it is written that Bon-sin-san sotaapannas are the ones who are reborn in human, deva and brahma worlds (except five suddhaavaasa realms) for several times, like Anaathapindika and lay-follower Visakha. The other three sotaapannas are the ones who are reborn in human and deva worlds. [For Burmese friends, it is on page 231 of the book.]

                                  >In the second book, it is written that there are several Bon-sin-san sotaapannas, such as Sakka the deva-king, who is now in Taavati.msa, and who will "bon-sin-san", i.e., will go up to higher and higher realms and will finally attain parinibbaana. Sayadaw added that sattakkhattuparama sotaapanna and kolankola sotaapanna are the ones who are reborn in human and deva worlds, and ekabíjin sotaapanna is the one who is reborn in human world. But Bon-sin-san sotaapannas can go upto Brahma world. [For Burmese friends, it is on page 721 of the book.]
                                  =======
                                • han tun
                                  Dear Sarah (Shalini, Dieter, Nina & Burmese friends) Sarah, I thank you ever so much for the additional information that you have provided which are very
                                  Message 16 of 22 , Jun 5, 2011
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                                    Dear Sarah (Shalini, Dieter, Nina & Burmese friends)

                                    Sarah, I thank you ever so much for the additional information that you have provided which are very informative and useful.

                                    I just wrote that I found in the books by Burmese Sayadaws about the Bon-sin-san sotaapanna. I am nobody or not well-informed like you to say who is right and who is wrong, or whether there is a basis for a separate 4th category of sotaapannas. I just give the information that I have found.

                                    As regards Nina's post (#115393) I have all praise for her explanations. With much appreciation and deepest respect, I had written to Nina that it was the most valuable explanation on "A Sotapanna" I have ever read.
                                    http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/115396

                                    Kind regards,
                                    Han
                                  • Nina van Gorkom
                                    Dear Sarah, I read your quotes with interest, especially with regard to the amount of tiikas. . I agree that say the teachers may have led some people to
                                    Message 17 of 22 , Jun 5, 2011
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                                      Dear Sarah,
                                      I read your quotes with interest, especially with regard to the
                                      amount of tiikas. .
                                      I agree that 'say the teachers' may have led some people to believe
                                      that there are more than seven rebirths for the sotaapanna. The
                                      commentaries render different opinions.
                                      Nina.
                                      Op 5-jun-2011, om 8:19 heeft sarah abbott het volgende geschreven:

                                      > So, in (my) conclusion, from this text, is that there may be some
                                      > basis in the ancient texts "say the teachers" for the suggestion
                                      > that the expression "at most seven times" may refer to sense-sphere
                                      > existence only. However I don't see a basis for a separate 4th
                                      > category of sotapannas.
                                      >
                                      > Of course, the words or terms or numbering may not in themselves be
                                      > of significance. After all, the Path is about developing
                                      > understanding of realities now!



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