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Re: [dsg] Re: A Sotapanna

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  • Vince
    Dear Sarah ... also I enjoy to read your messages :). Forgive me if my messages can sound in some robotic style, still I need some dictionary help. ... yes...
    Message 1 of 191 , Feb 2, 2011
      Dear Sarah

      you wrote:

      > I'm so sorry I didn't reply sooner. I'm very glad to read your continued
      > interest and probing questions.

      also I enjoy to read your messages :). Forgive me if my messages can sound in
      some robotic style, still I need some dictionary help.


      > However, the main point is the degree of wisdom which has been developed in
      > order to attain enlightenment and eradicated the very gross kilesa
      > (defilements), such as the intention to kill.

      yes... At least to me, the real interest of talking about these stages
      (sotapanna, arahant...) is the development of wisdom and how attachment
      works.


      > S: I'm sorry, I don't follow this. We can consider the development of
      > understanding now. When there's understanding of realities at this moment, is
      > there any inclination to harm bugs in any way at all? We don't have to think
      > about "enjoying nibbana". This isn't the aim of the path.

      well, on my side the discussion was not the aim of the path but how attachment
      works regarding panna; from here the sotapanna example is useful.


      > S: Nothing is "sustained", no conditioned dhammas last at all. However, no
      > more wrong view or doubt for the sotapanna, no more breaking of precepts.

      here I don't agree... I think if no thing can be sustained then no thing can be
      missed. And if the sotapanna don't miss nothing then he is free of any type of
      dukkha, and in this case we talk about an arhant instead a sotapanna.

      While there is attachment the arising of wrong views is not fully eradicated.


      > S:.. Without beginning to understand what nama is
      > now, what rupa is now, there will never be an eradication of the idea of atta,
      > self, and there will never be an appreciation of the Buddha's teachings which
      > are all about dhammas as anatta.
      > I appreciate that we may see this point differently and I look forward to your
      > further comments.

      ...but in this point we agree! :)

      Point of discussion can be the dukkha of sotapanna. But just I used this stage
      to ask about the relation between wisdom and attachment. Because the sotapanna
      is somebody who had realized nibbana and still is under attachments.
      From here I thought it was useful to know more things about the relation between
      panna and attachment.

      I agree about the goal of the way and to be here the present moment.


      best,


      Vince.
    • sarah abbott
      Dear Vince, How s life in Spain? ... However, this description of progress is isolated of life and it is not effectively real. Life is much more complex of
      Message 191 of 191 , Jul 20, 2011
        Dear Vince,

        How's life in Spain?

        Back to the life of the sotapanna in our thread:

        --- On Sat, 2/7/11, Vince <cerovzt@...> wrote:
        >I think what you says maybe can be accepted with the texts in our hands.
        However, this description of progress is isolated of life and it is not
        effectively real.
        Life is much more complex of what we can imagine. We can imagine somebody with a relatively fortunate life who reach the sotapanna state. And later, those tendencies to be angry against his selfish ex-couple, his boss, etc.. all these disappear quickly. Maybe that person goes to another country to become a monk in a safe environment without situation to break them. Or that person remains as a lay but he buys a nice house in the mountains with a central heating system, and that lay person don't break the precepts again.
        ....
        S: Yes, unless insight has been developed to the stage of sotapanna, we don't know what latent tendencies will condition strong akusala in various circumstances. However, it is the insight, not the 'central heating' or 'kind boss' that leads to the eradication of those akusala tendencies.
        ....
        V:>Also, we can imagine somebody with a relatively unfortunate life, who reach the sotapanna state. And later, the tendencies to be angry against the killers of his family or his torturers in a war, should decrease progressively. Maybe that person is poor and lives far of a Buddhist resource to get help or to become a monk. So maybe he will break some precept in some degree, despite the tendency to observe sila already is rooted. But he will be the only interpret available for that new sila tendency and what is able to refrain.
        ...
        S: No matter the circumstances, he won't knowingly break any precepts.
        ...
        V:> Also, note the sotapanna is not able to know a lot of things. He/She ignores if the stealing of a medicine to save the life of 1,10,100 people can be a right or a wrong action. Because there is ignorance about next rebirth for these beings and for his own. A sotapanna cannot know all that, although for sure he/she would break the precept if such situation appears.
        ...
        S: This would be impossible. They will never steal for any justification at all. They know the harm of those cittas involved in stealing - the taking from others, the deviousness and so on. They know that any justification is just thinking about concepts, so the idea of stealing in this scenario won't even be contemplated.

        Here is an extract from a sutta which Ven Samahita posted recently in #115945:

        >The Blessed Buddha once said:
        Beings are owners of their actions (kamma = karma), inheritors of
        their actions, are created by their actions, linked to their actions,
        their actions produce their destiny. Whatever actions they do;
        good as evil, the resulting reaction and effect will be only theirs!
        There is one who kills living beings, steals what belongs to others,
        commits adultery with others' partners; speaks lies, uses divisive
        and aggressive speech, prattles empty gossip; is covetous, envious,
        jealous, wicked-minded, & of evil views. Such one is creeping in all
        bodily, verbal, and mental actions. Hidden & secret are such one's
        actions, words, and thoughts, of ulterior and concealed motives.
        But I tell you: Whoever pursues hidden ways and objects will have
        to expect one of these two results: Either the torture of hell, or
        birth among the creeping animals. Thus is it with all rebirth of any
        being: They will be reborn according to their actions (kamma)...
        When reborn, they experience the exact effects of their actions.<...>

        >Source:
        Numerical Discourses of the Buddha. Anguttara Nikâya AN 10:205
        http://What-Buddha-Said.net/Canon/Sutta/AN/Index.Numerical.htm
        ***
        S: Note the comments about the one who breaks precepts, "hidden and secret are such one's actions, words, and thoughts, of ulterior and concealed motives." It then talks about the rebirth of such deeds in hell or animal realms. And yet we know there is no lower rebirth for the sotapanna. Therefore it is impossible that a sotapanna would perform such deeds.
        ...
        >V:This thread however has been useful to clarify more things about the relation between sila and wisdom. This is more complex of what I thought, with different views in both lay people and monks.
        ...
        S: Yes, it is complicated and the development of kusala sila cannot be separated from the development of wisdom. Your example of stealing above is a good example. Clinging to being a vegetarian is another one. Without an understanding of the importance of the present citta and cetasikas through the development of wisdom, one will always be confused about good and bad deeds conditioned by the mind, i.e sila.
        ....
        >V:thanks for the discussion,
        ...
        S: Thank you too. You've given lots of helpful examples and good quotes and I like the way that friends such as yourself keep questioning until really satisfied with the responses.

        Metta

        Sarah
        =======
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