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[dsg] Re: Buddha's suicide DN16

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  • truth_aerator
    Dear KenO, conditionality doesn t change the fact of action as it occured. Deliberately shortening one s life by renouncing vital fabrications is suicide, just
    Message 1 of 91 , Sep 1, 2010
      Dear KenO,

      conditionality doesn't change the fact of action as it occured.

      Deliberately shortening one's life by renouncing vital fabrications is suicide, just like deliberately cutting off one's life support fully knowing that it will result in death.

      With metta,


      --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Ken O <ashkenn2k@...> wrote:
      > Dear Alex
      > there must be a cause and a conditions.  Once the condition is met, the cause
      > will ripen just like Buddha life faculty.  He cannot change this nature of
      > dhamma to cease because of a condition to cause it.  No one could change it.
      > Just like many other disciples like Ven Sariputta, Ven Ananda or Ven Didiba
      > Ken O
      > >
      > >Ven. Ananda didn't remove Buddha's vital fabrications. Buddha did it Himself.
      > >
      > >With metta,
      > >
      > >Alex
      > >
      > >
    • Kevin F
      Hi Sarah, Sarah:.. .... S: I just checked the Udana commentary for more detail on this passage: We read: The time for my parinibbaana (parinibbaanakaalo
      Message 91 of 91 , Mar 14, 2011
        Hi Sarah,

        Sarah:.. "

        S: I just checked the Udana commentary for more detail on this passage:

        We read:

        " 'The time for my parinibbaana (parinibbaanakaalo me)': he indicates: 'Lord,
        the time for my parinibbaana by way of that element of nibbaana that is without
        remnant of substrate has presented itself; I desire to attain parinibbaana, once
        I have informed the Lord of this'.

        "Some, however, say that the elder begged leave of the Teacher for the sake of
        (attaining) parinibbaana, despite the fact that he was neither decrepit nor
        sick, this being the reason for this: that he begged leave of the Teacher after
        coming to the conclusion that 'The monks Mettiya and Bhummajaka previously
        charged me with a Defeat that was without foundation, yet they still curse me
        even though the case has been settled; whilst other puthujjanas, believing them,
        treat me with irreverence and contempt. What business have I with hauling around
        thus useless burden of dukkha? Therefore, I should attain parinibbaana right

        "But this is unreasonable. For those in whom the aasavas have been destroyed do
        not, so long as their lifespan's formations are not completely exhausted, set
        their hearts upon parinibbaana, apply and exert themselves for the sake of same,
        for fear of blame and so on on the part of others; yet nor do they remain for
        long for the sake of applause and so forth on the part of others.

        "Rather they await the complete exhaustion of their own lifespan's formations
        solely as a result their own (process of) functioning [sarasen'eva; in other
        words, they simply let those formations run their course until they become
        completely exhausted], in accordance with which:

        " 'I do not long for dying, I do not long for living; yet I look forward to my
        time, as does a hireling his wages' (Thag 606) was said.

        "The Lord, having also surveyed his lifespan's formations and come to know of
        their complete exhaustion, said : 'You, Dabba, should do that for which you deem
        it now to be the time'.

        S: With regard to the part about "entered the fire property" as quoted above, we
        read in the commentary:

        "(Lest it should be asked) what he did after rising into mid-air, he said
        'Seated himself in a cross-legged position in the sky, in the air' and so on.
        Herein: 'attained the element of heat (tejodhaatu.m samaapajjitvaa): attained
        the attainment consisting of the fourth jhaana in the fire-kasi.na. For the
        elder, stationed at that time to one side after having saluted the Lord and
        circumambulated him three times by the right, said: 'Over the hundred thousand
        kalpas, Lord, that I lived (and) performed meritorious deeds in this place and
        that with you, I acted with reference to this goal alone; that very same goal
        has today reached its climax - this is (your) last sight (of me)'. To some
        amongst those there who were putthujjana monks or sotaapannas and
        once-returners, there arose great compassion, (whilst) some amongst them ended
        up weeping.

        "Then the Lord, having discerned his integrity of mind (cittaacaara.m), said:
        'Well, in that case, Dabba, display the potency-miracle to me and the order of
        monks'. Straightaway the whole order of monks congregated; then the venerable
        Dabba displayed all the miracles shared by saavakas handed down after the method
        of 'Having been one, he becomes multifold' and so on, once more saluted the
        Lord, rose into the sky, fashioned earth in the sky and then, seated in a
        cross-legged position thereon, performed the preliminary work towards that
        attainment in the fire-kasina, attained that attainment, resolved that element
        of heat should cremate his body, and then finally attained parinibbaana. His
        whole body became ablaze with fire along with that resolving. And through the
        power of that resolving, that fire, as with the fire that ushers in the end of
        the kalpa, instantaneously cremated whatever had taken formation, even the size
        of an atom, without leaving anything behind there as a remanant, not even mere
        soot, and then became extinguished..."

        S: In other words, it's clear that knowing death was coming, his time was up, he
        emerged form jhana (fire-kasina), attained parinibbaana immediately following
        the death consciousness and instantly his body was cremated by the fire he had
        resolved upon. There was no "suicide". As the text said, arahats ***'await the
        complete exhaustion of their own lifespan's formations solely as a result their
        own (process of) functioning.'***

        I hope this helps clarify.



        K: That does help clarify. Thank you Sarah.

        All the best,


        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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