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Re: [dsg] Past Buddhas Dhamma in Detail

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  • sarah abbott
    Dear Nina (& Kevin), Good points - I haven t read all your discussion yet. ... N: Thank you for the reference and your conclusion is plausible. Only, I wonder
    Message 1 of 28 , Aug 2, 2010
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      Dear Nina (& Kevin),

      Good points - I haven't read all your discussion yet.

      --- On Mon, 2/8/10, Nina van Gorkom <vangorko@...> wrote:
      >
      N: Thank you for the reference and your conclusion is plausible.
      Only, I wonder about the giving of Patimokkha, given by all former
      Buddhas.
      ...
      S: In the Vinaya text, under Vipassin, Sikhin and Vessabhu Buddhas, it mentioned that "the course for training for the disciples was not made known, the Patimokkha was not appointed". Later it refers to how under any Buddha, the course of training and the appointment of the Patimokkha was not made until there were conditions for "cankers" appearing in the Order, but it seems to be referring to those Buddhas who gave the dhamma in detail, including Gotama of course.
      ...
      >As I wrote before, I looked at the Buddhava.msa, Chronicle of the
      Buddhas, and its commentary, Madhuratthavilaasini, tr. by Horner as
      the Clarifier of the Sweet Meaning. the Buddha Vipassin recited
      Paatimokkha, and then the verse of the ovaada paatimokkha.
      As to the Buddha Vessabhu (p. 356), he was srrounded by thousands of
      arahats, the 'Lord Vessabhu recited Paatimokkha'.
      ...
      S: Yes, it refers to how he recited the Patimokkha "in the midst of the eighty thousand arahants who had gone forth in the gathering with the two chief disciples, So.na and Uttara. That was the first assembly".

      A footnote says that "Vessabhu is said to have held uposatha once in every six years, DhA iii 236." It also refers to the same Vinaya passages I quoted and referred to Vin iii 7ff. So I'm wondering if when it says in the Vinaya that under these Buddhas, the Patimokkha was not given, whether it actually means, not regularly given or not given in detail or fully, as there just wasn't the need at the time.

      (Actually, I remember once discussing this same point with K.Sujin once about why there wasn't the need for the detail and we had a brief discussion about the qualities of the monks who became arahats.)
      ....
      >Then under the Exposition of the Differences between the Buddhas,
      there are differences in lifespan, family, Bo-tree, etc. Then for all
      Buddha similarities are mentioned. Great Brahmaa's request for
      teaching dhamma, the turning of the Wheel of Dhamma, recital of the
      Paatimokkha, teaching of the Abhidhamma in the abode of the
      thirtythree, descent to Sa.nkassa (after that)....
      ...
      S: Yes, I remember this from when I quoted it all before (for others: see "Useful Posts" under "Buddhas").

      I know it's just a detail, but I'll try to raise the point in Bkk. All the translations of these texts quoted here are by I.B.Horner, so there shouldn't be any discrepancy. I'm inclined to think that it means that under some Buddhas, little detail was given and the Patimokkha was not recited for a long time and then only very occasionally, but I'll ask.

      Metta

      Sarah
      ========
    • han tun
      Dear Sarah and Nina, In Pali text of DN 14 Mahaapadaana Sutta, I found the following passage. Tatra suda.m, bhikkhave, vipassii bhagavaa araha.m
      Message 2 of 28 , Aug 2, 2010
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        Dear Sarah and Nina,

        In Pali text of DN 14 Mahaapadaana Sutta, I found the following passage.

        Tatra suda.m, bhikkhave, vipassii bhagavaa araha.m sammaasambuddho bhikkhusa"nghe eva.m paatimokkha.m uddisati

        Khantii parama.m tapo titikkhaa,
        Nibbaana.m parama.m vadanti buddhaa;
        Na hi pabbajito paruupaghaatii,
        Na sama.no hoti para.m vihe.thayanto.

        Sabbapaapassa akara.na.m, kusalassa upasampadaa;
        Sacittapariyodapana.m, eta.m buddhaanasaasana.m.

        Anuupavaado anuupaghaato, paatimokkhe ca sa.mvaro;
        Matta~n~nutaa ca bhattasmi.m, panta~nca sayanaasana.m;
        Adhicitte ca aayogo, eta.m buddhaanasaasana’nti.

        The English translation is in paragraph 3.28 of DN 14 of the book translated by Maurice Walshe.

        My understanding is the above three verses are the paatimokkha delivered by Buddha Vipassii every six years.
        Am I correct? Was there any paatimokkha other than the above three verses.

        Respectfully,
        Han
      • Nina van Gorkom
        Dear Sarah, ... N: This may well be so. A question of more detail and less detail. Better to talk about satipa.t.thaana, we need it! Nina. [Non-text portions
        Message 3 of 28 , Aug 2, 2010
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          Dear Sarah,
          Op 2-aug-2010, om 12:13 heeft sarah abbott het volgende geschreven:

          > I'm inclined to think that it means that under some Buddhas, little
          > detail was given and the Patimokkha was not recited for a long time
          > and then only very occasionally, but I'll ask.
          ------
          N: This may well be so. A question of more detail and less detail.
          Better to talk about satipa.t.thaana, we need it!

          Nina.



          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Nina van Gorkom
          Dear Han, ... N: There are two kinds of patimokkha: ovada patimokkha, the exhortation to the patimokkha (your quoted verses). 2. The aa.naa patimokkha: all the
          Message 4 of 28 , Aug 2, 2010
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            Dear Han,

            Op 2-aug-2010, om 13:39 heeft han tun het volgende geschreven:

            > My understanding is the above three verses are the paatimokkha
            > delivered by Buddha Vipassii every six years.
            > Am I correct? Was there any paatimokkha other than the above three
            > verses.
            ------
            N: There are two kinds of patimokkha: ovada patimokkha, the
            exhortation to the patimokkha (your quoted verses).
            2. The aa.naa patimokkha: all the Vinaya rules for the bhikkhus.
            (aa.naa means command).
            See Kh sujin's Perfections under patience, p. 116.

            Nina.



            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • han tun
            Dear Nina (Sarah), N: There are two kinds of patimokkha: ovada patimokkha, the exhortation to the patimokkha (your quoted verses). 2. The aa.naa patimokkha:
            Message 5 of 28 , Aug 2, 2010
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              Dear Nina (Sarah),

              N: There are two kinds of patimokkha: ovada patimokkha, the exhortation to the patimokkha (your quoted verses).
              2. The aa.naa patimokkha: all the Vinaya rules for the bhikkhus. (aa.naa means command).
              See Kh sujin's Perfections under patience, p. 116.

              Han: Thank you very much.
              It is very clear now.

              Respectfully,
              Han
            • Kevin F
              Dear Sarah, Sarah: The the Buddha Vessabhu, the text tells, was in a jungle and exhorted the thousand monks around him briefly on the Truths after reading
              Message 6 of 28 , Aug 2, 2010
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                Dear Sarah,

                Sarah: The the Buddha Vessabhu, the text tells, was in a jungle and exhorted
                the thousand monks around him briefly on the Truths after reading their minds
                and they all became arahats immediately without a need for more detail or
                Vinaya rules.


                Kevin: His powers must have been amazing.

                Kevin

                Just a post script note to all: I have read some of the replies to me in other
                threads here over the past few days but have not yet had a chance to respond to
                them all. The old Lyme disease has been kicking my ass. I have to pick and
                choose my battles! But I will say one thing now. What appears to be "doubt"
                in panna may not be doubt at all, but just confidence in the efficacy in sila
                and samadhi. There is no self there. In fact, I have read dhamma books in a
                special location. I used to go down to the water of the Hudson River to read
                them. From there I had a very nice view, a special view. I sat high on a
                ridge, overlooking the landscape. Directly ahead of me was the great river that
                flows on and on against our will and carries things away. The river was flowing
                outward from my direction. On either side of it their were great mountains
                where the earth element and all the great elements arose. However, looking
                straight ahead there was a lighthouse in the middle of the river. The
                lighthouse gave off illumination to those floating along and to wanderers on the
                river. Directly behind the light house, the river bent and looked like it
                dropped off. There was a great void between the mountains and the river was not
                visible, did not look like it reached that place. In the midst of this stood
                the lighthouse. Behind that lighthouse was the great void. In that void, the
                river was not there carrying things away, nor were the mountains or the great
                elements there. Even the four great elements had no footing there. That has
                been my vantage point. The point where no things arise, nibbana. - Kevin



                ___________
                With metta
                Kevin


                The business of an intellectual is to think.


                Most people think religion is staring at the perfection of a rose bud. They
                don't understand the decay of the rose bud nor of the mind that admires it and
                then quickly decays. - me


                I never fall. Because strength of mind is divine over all. - MC Mr. Voodoo


                http://www.marklevinshow.com/sectional.asp?id=32930#




                ________________________________
                From: sarah <sarahprocterabbott@...>
                To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com
                Sent: Mon, August 2, 2010 2:51:55 AM
                Subject: Re: [dsg] Past Buddhas Dhamma in Detail


                Dear Nina & Kevin,

                >N: Thank you for the reference. Thus far I have not met discrepancies in
                > the commentaries and therefore I am surprised of the quote you gave.
                > It is hard to find its location...
                ....
                S: Connie and I have both referred to the passage in question (and another
                briefer reference to the same point in another text) here before. It's from the
                SuttaVibhanga, (vol 1 in Horner's "Book of Discipline", vol 1 under Paaraajika,
                p15 (111.7 for the Pali):

                "Now while the venerable Saariputta had gone into seclusion for meditation, this
                thought arose in his mind: "Of which enlightened ones, of which lords did the
                Brahma-life not last long? Of which enlightened ones, of which lords did the
                Brahma-life last long?" Then the venerable Saariputta, rising up at evening
                time from his meditation, came up to the lord and having come up he greeted him
                and sitting to one side. As he was sitting to one side, the venerable Saariputta
                spoke thus to the lord:

                "Now, lord, as I was in seclusion for meditation, this thought arose in my mind:
                'Of which enlightened ones....last long?' "

                "Saariputta, while Vipassin was lord, while Sikhin was lord, and while Vessabhu
                was lord the Brahma-life did not last long. Saariputta, while Kakusandha was
                lord and while Konaagamana was lord and while Kassapa was lord the Brahma-life
                lasted long."

                "And what, Lord, is the cause, what the reason why when Vipassin was lord and
                when Sikin was lord and when Vessabhu was lord the Brahma life did not last
                long?"

                "Sariputta, the lord Vipassin and the lord Sikhin and the lord Vessabhu were
                idle in preaching dhamma in detail to the disciples; and these had little of the
                Suttas in prose or in prose and verse, the Expositions, the Songs, the Verses of
                Uplift, the Quotations, the Jatakas,the Miracles, the Miscellanies (S: the
                Vedalla); the course of training for the disciples was not made known, the
                Paa.timokkha was not appointed. After the disappearance of these enlightened
                ones, these lords, after the disappearance of the disciples enlightened under
                these enlightened ones, those last disciples of various clans, of various social
                strata, who had gone forth from various families, caused this Brahma life
                rapidly to disappear. it is as if, Saariputta, various flowers, loose on a flat
                piece of wood, not tied together by a thread, are scattered about, whirled about
                and destroyed by the wind....."

                S: The text continues to give detail about why some Buddhas gave more detail
                than others - different circumstances, different accumulations of those around
                at the time as well. The the Buddha Vessabhu, the text tells, was in a jungle
                and exhorted the thousand monks around him briefly on the Truths after reading
                their minds and they all became arahats immediately without a need for more
                detail or Vinaya rules.


                Metta

                Sarah
                =======







                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • sarah abbott
                Dear Kevin, ... the thousand monks around him briefly on the Truths after reading their minds and they all became arahats immediately without a need for more
                Message 7 of 28 , Aug 2, 2010
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                  Dear Kevin,

                  --- On Tue, 3/8/10, Kevin F <farrellkevin80@...> wrote:

                  >Sarah: The the Buddha Vessabhu, the text tells, was in a jungle and exhorted
                  the thousand monks around him briefly on the Truths after reading their minds
                  and they all became arahats immediately without a need for more detail or
                  Vinaya rules.

                  >Kevin: His powers must have been amazing.
                  ....
                  S: Yes and also all the monks, ripe for enlightenment. Paramis accumulated over countless aeons and the kamma to be born at that place, at that time.
                  ...
                  >Just a post script note to all: I have read some of the replies to me in other
                  threads here over the past few days but have not yet had a chance to respond to
                  them all. The old Lyme disease has been kicking my ass. I have to pick and
                  choose my battles!
                  ...
                  S: Wishing you good health and no need to think of any discussions here as "battles"! Just friends helping each other along the way.... There are bound to be minsunderstandings from time to time too.
                  ....
                  >But I will say one thing now. What appears to be "doubt"
                  in panna may not be doubt at all, but just confidence in the efficacy in sila
                  and samadhi. There is no self there.
                  ....
                  S: The last sentence is the important point to stress. No matter what happens in life, no matter what dhammas arise, they are all anatta - nothing to be attached to at all.

                  Many thanks for sharing your other experiences and comments. As Ken H said, never boring with you around:-) One day I'd like to visit you and Howard in New York and go visit the river and lighthouse too!

                  Metta

                  Sarah
                  =======
                • Kevin F
                  Dear Sarah: Sarah wrote: Yes and also all the monks, ripe for enlightenment. Paramis accumulated over countless aeons and the kamma to be born at that place,
                  Message 8 of 28 , Aug 2, 2010
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                    Dear Sarah:

                    Sarah wrote: Yes and also all the monks, ripe for enlightenment. Paramis
                    accumulated over countless aeons and the kamma to be born at that place, at
                    that time.

                    Kevin: Absolutely! What impresses me though is the power of the Great Buddha
                    to all the accumulations and tendencies of the monks. A truly Great One.

                    Sarah: Wishing you good health and no need to think of any discussions here as
                    "battles"!

                    Kevin: Thank you. Sharpening my axe as we speak.

                    Sarah: The last sentence is the important point to stress. No matter what
                    happens in life, no matter what dhammas arise, they are all anatta - nothing to
                    be attached to at all.

                    Kevin: Agree.

                    Sarah: Many thanks for sharing your other experiences and comments. As Ken H
                    said, never boring with you around:-) One day I'd like to visit you and Howard
                    in New York and go visit the river and lighthouse too!

                    Kevin: You have that same lighthouse in your own back yard too. But I would
                    love if you visited. That goes for Jon as well and everyone else. By all
                    means.

                    all the best,

                    Kevin




                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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