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Re: [dsg] Past Buddhas Dhamma in Detail

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  • Nina van Gorkom
    Dear Sarah, ... N: Thank you for the reference and your conclusion is plausible. Only, I wonder about the giving of Patimokkha, given by all former Buddhas. As
    Message 1 of 28 , Aug 2, 2010
      Dear Sarah,
      Op 2-aug-2010, om 8:51 heeft sarah het volgende geschreven:

      > S: The text continues to give detail about why some Buddhas gave
      > more detail than others - different circumstances, different
      > accumulations of those around at the time as well. The the Buddha
      > Vessabhu, the text tells, was in a jungle and exhorted the thousand
      > monks around him briefly on the Truths after reading their minds
      > and they all became arahats immediately without a need for more
      > detail or Vinaya rules.
      -------
      N: Thank you for the reference and your conclusion is plausible.
      Only, I wonder about the giving of Patimokkha, given by all former
      Buddhas.
      As I wrote before, I looked at the Buddhava.msa, Chronicle of the
      Buddhas, and its commentary, Madhuratthavilaasini, tr. by Horner as
      the Clarifier of the Sweet Meaning. the Buddha Vipassin recited
      Paatimokkha, and then the verse of the ovaada paatimokkha.
      As to the Buddha Vessabhu (p. 356), he was srrounded by thousands of
      arahats, the 'Lord Vessabhu recited Paatimokkha'.
      Then under the Exposition of the Differences between the Buddhas,
      there are differences in lifespan, family, Bo-tree, etc. Then for all
      Buddha similarities are mentioned. Great Brahmaa's request for
      teaching dhamma, the turning of the Wheel of Dhamma, recital of the
      Paatimokkha, teaching of the Abhidhamma in the abode of the
      thirtythree, descent to Sa.nkassa (after that)....
      ------
      Nina.



      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • sarah abbott
      Dear Nina (& Kevin), Good points - I haven t read all your discussion yet. ... N: Thank you for the reference and your conclusion is plausible. Only, I wonder
      Message 2 of 28 , Aug 2, 2010
        Dear Nina (& Kevin),

        Good points - I haven't read all your discussion yet.

        --- On Mon, 2/8/10, Nina van Gorkom <vangorko@...> wrote:
        >
        N: Thank you for the reference and your conclusion is plausible.
        Only, I wonder about the giving of Patimokkha, given by all former
        Buddhas.
        ...
        S: In the Vinaya text, under Vipassin, Sikhin and Vessabhu Buddhas, it mentioned that "the course for training for the disciples was not made known, the Patimokkha was not appointed". Later it refers to how under any Buddha, the course of training and the appointment of the Patimokkha was not made until there were conditions for "cankers" appearing in the Order, but it seems to be referring to those Buddhas who gave the dhamma in detail, including Gotama of course.
        ...
        >As I wrote before, I looked at the Buddhava.msa, Chronicle of the
        Buddhas, and its commentary, Madhuratthavilaasini, tr. by Horner as
        the Clarifier of the Sweet Meaning. the Buddha Vipassin recited
        Paatimokkha, and then the verse of the ovaada paatimokkha.
        As to the Buddha Vessabhu (p. 356), he was srrounded by thousands of
        arahats, the 'Lord Vessabhu recited Paatimokkha'.
        ...
        S: Yes, it refers to how he recited the Patimokkha "in the midst of the eighty thousand arahants who had gone forth in the gathering with the two chief disciples, So.na and Uttara. That was the first assembly".

        A footnote says that "Vessabhu is said to have held uposatha once in every six years, DhA iii 236." It also refers to the same Vinaya passages I quoted and referred to Vin iii 7ff. So I'm wondering if when it says in the Vinaya that under these Buddhas, the Patimokkha was not given, whether it actually means, not regularly given or not given in detail or fully, as there just wasn't the need at the time.

        (Actually, I remember once discussing this same point with K.Sujin once about why there wasn't the need for the detail and we had a brief discussion about the qualities of the monks who became arahats.)
        ....
        >Then under the Exposition of the Differences between the Buddhas,
        there are differences in lifespan, family, Bo-tree, etc. Then for all
        Buddha similarities are mentioned. Great Brahmaa's request for
        teaching dhamma, the turning of the Wheel of Dhamma, recital of the
        Paatimokkha, teaching of the Abhidhamma in the abode of the
        thirtythree, descent to Sa.nkassa (after that)....
        ...
        S: Yes, I remember this from when I quoted it all before (for others: see "Useful Posts" under "Buddhas").

        I know it's just a detail, but I'll try to raise the point in Bkk. All the translations of these texts quoted here are by I.B.Horner, so there shouldn't be any discrepancy. I'm inclined to think that it means that under some Buddhas, little detail was given and the Patimokkha was not recited for a long time and then only very occasionally, but I'll ask.

        Metta

        Sarah
        ========
      • han tun
        Dear Sarah and Nina, In Pali text of DN 14 Mahaapadaana Sutta, I found the following passage. Tatra suda.m, bhikkhave, vipassii bhagavaa araha.m
        Message 3 of 28 , Aug 2, 2010
          Dear Sarah and Nina,

          In Pali text of DN 14 Mahaapadaana Sutta, I found the following passage.

          Tatra suda.m, bhikkhave, vipassii bhagavaa araha.m sammaasambuddho bhikkhusa"nghe eva.m paatimokkha.m uddisati

          Khantii parama.m tapo titikkhaa,
          Nibbaana.m parama.m vadanti buddhaa;
          Na hi pabbajito paruupaghaatii,
          Na sama.no hoti para.m vihe.thayanto.

          Sabbapaapassa akara.na.m, kusalassa upasampadaa;
          Sacittapariyodapana.m, eta.m buddhaanasaasana.m.

          Anuupavaado anuupaghaato, paatimokkhe ca sa.mvaro;
          Matta~n~nutaa ca bhattasmi.m, panta~nca sayanaasana.m;
          Adhicitte ca aayogo, eta.m buddhaanasaasana’nti.

          The English translation is in paragraph 3.28 of DN 14 of the book translated by Maurice Walshe.

          My understanding is the above three verses are the paatimokkha delivered by Buddha Vipassii every six years.
          Am I correct? Was there any paatimokkha other than the above three verses.

          Respectfully,
          Han
        • Nina van Gorkom
          Dear Sarah, ... N: This may well be so. A question of more detail and less detail. Better to talk about satipa.t.thaana, we need it! Nina. [Non-text portions
          Message 4 of 28 , Aug 2, 2010
            Dear Sarah,
            Op 2-aug-2010, om 12:13 heeft sarah abbott het volgende geschreven:

            > I'm inclined to think that it means that under some Buddhas, little
            > detail was given and the Patimokkha was not recited for a long time
            > and then only very occasionally, but I'll ask.
            ------
            N: This may well be so. A question of more detail and less detail.
            Better to talk about satipa.t.thaana, we need it!

            Nina.



            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Nina van Gorkom
            Dear Han, ... N: There are two kinds of patimokkha: ovada patimokkha, the exhortation to the patimokkha (your quoted verses). 2. The aa.naa patimokkha: all the
            Message 5 of 28 , Aug 2, 2010
              Dear Han,

              Op 2-aug-2010, om 13:39 heeft han tun het volgende geschreven:

              > My understanding is the above three verses are the paatimokkha
              > delivered by Buddha Vipassii every six years.
              > Am I correct? Was there any paatimokkha other than the above three
              > verses.
              ------
              N: There are two kinds of patimokkha: ovada patimokkha, the
              exhortation to the patimokkha (your quoted verses).
              2. The aa.naa patimokkha: all the Vinaya rules for the bhikkhus.
              (aa.naa means command).
              See Kh sujin's Perfections under patience, p. 116.

              Nina.



              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • han tun
              Dear Nina (Sarah), N: There are two kinds of patimokkha: ovada patimokkha, the exhortation to the patimokkha (your quoted verses). 2. The aa.naa patimokkha:
              Message 6 of 28 , Aug 2, 2010
                Dear Nina (Sarah),

                N: There are two kinds of patimokkha: ovada patimokkha, the exhortation to the patimokkha (your quoted verses).
                2. The aa.naa patimokkha: all the Vinaya rules for the bhikkhus. (aa.naa means command).
                See Kh sujin's Perfections under patience, p. 116.

                Han: Thank you very much.
                It is very clear now.

                Respectfully,
                Han
              • Kevin F
                Dear Sarah, Sarah: The the Buddha Vessabhu, the text tells, was in a jungle and exhorted the thousand monks around him briefly on the Truths after reading
                Message 7 of 28 , Aug 2, 2010
                  Dear Sarah,

                  Sarah: The the Buddha Vessabhu, the text tells, was in a jungle and exhorted
                  the thousand monks around him briefly on the Truths after reading their minds
                  and they all became arahats immediately without a need for more detail or
                  Vinaya rules.


                  Kevin: His powers must have been amazing.

                  Kevin

                  Just a post script note to all: I have read some of the replies to me in other
                  threads here over the past few days but have not yet had a chance to respond to
                  them all. The old Lyme disease has been kicking my ass. I have to pick and
                  choose my battles! But I will say one thing now. What appears to be "doubt"
                  in panna may not be doubt at all, but just confidence in the efficacy in sila
                  and samadhi. There is no self there. In fact, I have read dhamma books in a
                  special location. I used to go down to the water of the Hudson River to read
                  them. From there I had a very nice view, a special view. I sat high on a
                  ridge, overlooking the landscape. Directly ahead of me was the great river that
                  flows on and on against our will and carries things away. The river was flowing
                  outward from my direction. On either side of it their were great mountains
                  where the earth element and all the great elements arose. However, looking
                  straight ahead there was a lighthouse in the middle of the river. The
                  lighthouse gave off illumination to those floating along and to wanderers on the
                  river. Directly behind the light house, the river bent and looked like it
                  dropped off. There was a great void between the mountains and the river was not
                  visible, did not look like it reached that place. In the midst of this stood
                  the lighthouse. Behind that lighthouse was the great void. In that void, the
                  river was not there carrying things away, nor were the mountains or the great
                  elements there. Even the four great elements had no footing there. That has
                  been my vantage point. The point where no things arise, nibbana. - Kevin



                  ___________
                  With metta
                  Kevin


                  The business of an intellectual is to think.


                  Most people think religion is staring at the perfection of a rose bud. They
                  don't understand the decay of the rose bud nor of the mind that admires it and
                  then quickly decays. - me


                  I never fall. Because strength of mind is divine over all. - MC Mr. Voodoo


                  http://www.marklevinshow.com/sectional.asp?id=32930#




                  ________________________________
                  From: sarah <sarahprocterabbott@...>
                  To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com
                  Sent: Mon, August 2, 2010 2:51:55 AM
                  Subject: Re: [dsg] Past Buddhas Dhamma in Detail


                  Dear Nina & Kevin,

                  >N: Thank you for the reference. Thus far I have not met discrepancies in
                  > the commentaries and therefore I am surprised of the quote you gave.
                  > It is hard to find its location...
                  ....
                  S: Connie and I have both referred to the passage in question (and another
                  briefer reference to the same point in another text) here before. It's from the
                  SuttaVibhanga, (vol 1 in Horner's "Book of Discipline", vol 1 under Paaraajika,
                  p15 (111.7 for the Pali):

                  "Now while the venerable Saariputta had gone into seclusion for meditation, this
                  thought arose in his mind: "Of which enlightened ones, of which lords did the
                  Brahma-life not last long? Of which enlightened ones, of which lords did the
                  Brahma-life last long?" Then the venerable Saariputta, rising up at evening
                  time from his meditation, came up to the lord and having come up he greeted him
                  and sitting to one side. As he was sitting to one side, the venerable Saariputta
                  spoke thus to the lord:

                  "Now, lord, as I was in seclusion for meditation, this thought arose in my mind:
                  'Of which enlightened ones....last long?' "

                  "Saariputta, while Vipassin was lord, while Sikhin was lord, and while Vessabhu
                  was lord the Brahma-life did not last long. Saariputta, while Kakusandha was
                  lord and while Konaagamana was lord and while Kassapa was lord the Brahma-life
                  lasted long."

                  "And what, Lord, is the cause, what the reason why when Vipassin was lord and
                  when Sikin was lord and when Vessabhu was lord the Brahma life did not last
                  long?"

                  "Sariputta, the lord Vipassin and the lord Sikhin and the lord Vessabhu were
                  idle in preaching dhamma in detail to the disciples; and these had little of the
                  Suttas in prose or in prose and verse, the Expositions, the Songs, the Verses of
                  Uplift, the Quotations, the Jatakas,the Miracles, the Miscellanies (S: the
                  Vedalla); the course of training for the disciples was not made known, the
                  Paa.timokkha was not appointed. After the disappearance of these enlightened
                  ones, these lords, after the disappearance of the disciples enlightened under
                  these enlightened ones, those last disciples of various clans, of various social
                  strata, who had gone forth from various families, caused this Brahma life
                  rapidly to disappear. it is as if, Saariputta, various flowers, loose on a flat
                  piece of wood, not tied together by a thread, are scattered about, whirled about
                  and destroyed by the wind....."

                  S: The text continues to give detail about why some Buddhas gave more detail
                  than others - different circumstances, different accumulations of those around
                  at the time as well. The the Buddha Vessabhu, the text tells, was in a jungle
                  and exhorted the thousand monks around him briefly on the Truths after reading
                  their minds and they all became arahats immediately without a need for more
                  detail or Vinaya rules.


                  Metta

                  Sarah
                  =======







                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • sarah abbott
                  Dear Kevin, ... the thousand monks around him briefly on the Truths after reading their minds and they all became arahats immediately without a need for more
                  Message 8 of 28 , Aug 2, 2010
                    Dear Kevin,

                    --- On Tue, 3/8/10, Kevin F <farrellkevin80@...> wrote:

                    >Sarah: The the Buddha Vessabhu, the text tells, was in a jungle and exhorted
                    the thousand monks around him briefly on the Truths after reading their minds
                    and they all became arahats immediately without a need for more detail or
                    Vinaya rules.

                    >Kevin: His powers must have been amazing.
                    ....
                    S: Yes and also all the monks, ripe for enlightenment. Paramis accumulated over countless aeons and the kamma to be born at that place, at that time.
                    ...
                    >Just a post script note to all: I have read some of the replies to me in other
                    threads here over the past few days but have not yet had a chance to respond to
                    them all. The old Lyme disease has been kicking my ass. I have to pick and
                    choose my battles!
                    ...
                    S: Wishing you good health and no need to think of any discussions here as "battles"! Just friends helping each other along the way.... There are bound to be minsunderstandings from time to time too.
                    ....
                    >But I will say one thing now. What appears to be "doubt"
                    in panna may not be doubt at all, but just confidence in the efficacy in sila
                    and samadhi. There is no self there.
                    ....
                    S: The last sentence is the important point to stress. No matter what happens in life, no matter what dhammas arise, they are all anatta - nothing to be attached to at all.

                    Many thanks for sharing your other experiences and comments. As Ken H said, never boring with you around:-) One day I'd like to visit you and Howard in New York and go visit the river and lighthouse too!

                    Metta

                    Sarah
                    =======
                  • Kevin F
                    Dear Sarah: Sarah wrote: Yes and also all the monks, ripe for enlightenment. Paramis accumulated over countless aeons and the kamma to be born at that place,
                    Message 9 of 28 , Aug 2, 2010
                      Dear Sarah:

                      Sarah wrote: Yes and also all the monks, ripe for enlightenment. Paramis
                      accumulated over countless aeons and the kamma to be born at that place, at
                      that time.

                      Kevin: Absolutely! What impresses me though is the power of the Great Buddha
                      to all the accumulations and tendencies of the monks. A truly Great One.

                      Sarah: Wishing you good health and no need to think of any discussions here as
                      "battles"!

                      Kevin: Thank you. Sharpening my axe as we speak.

                      Sarah: The last sentence is the important point to stress. No matter what
                      happens in life, no matter what dhammas arise, they are all anatta - nothing to
                      be attached to at all.

                      Kevin: Agree.

                      Sarah: Many thanks for sharing your other experiences and comments. As Ken H
                      said, never boring with you around:-) One day I'd like to visit you and Howard
                      in New York and go visit the river and lighthouse too!

                      Kevin: You have that same lighthouse in your own back yard too. But I would
                      love if you visited. That goes for Jon as well and everyone else. By all
                      means.

                      all the best,

                      Kevin




                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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