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Re: Difference between Kamma and Kammavipaka. Influence. 1

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  • Dieter Moeller
    Hi Howard and Jon, you wrote: J: The class of potential objects of awareness/insight is much broader than is encompassed by the idea of guarding the mind
    Message 1 of 106 , Jun 2, 2010
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      Hi Howard and Jon,

      you wrote:

      J: The class of potential objects of awareness/insight is much broader than is encompassed by the idea of "guarding the mind against falling prey to
      being swept away by thinking, imagining, recalling, planning, wishing, and by excitement or by sloth & torpor". For that reason, I would say that
      having that as one's frame of reference amounts to a kind of focussing.
      Jon, when I said that mindfulness guards against being swept away by various things, it could have just as well been stated positively as
      "mindfulness guards staying present with whatever arises". You are misinterpreting me. Mindfulness guards against getting caught by the hindrances, enabling
      staying alertly present with whatever arises.
      To my understanding, at the precise moment of any awareness/insight, there
      *is* the guarding of the mind against those things. The moments of
      consciousness before and after, however, may be akusala.

      D: the aspect of guarding the senses refers to right effort and covers all what is important by stating: avoid , overcome the unwholesome, and generate , maintain the wholesome

      > ===============
      > [D:] It may be useful to discuss this more in detail . I suggest to take the introduction of Thanissaro Bhikkhu as a base (
      http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/dn/dn.22.0.than.html ) and talk about with what we do
      or don't agree . > For example the Venerable states that the' basic layer of calm ' ( keeping in- and out breathing in mind ) should be kept all the time , i.e.
      not just > 'preliminary' .
      > ===============

      J: The so-called 'basic layer of calm' is not an idea that one finds in the texts of the Theravada tradition. I suspect it's a creation of certain
      modern-day 'commentators'.
      I believe you are mistaken in this, Jon. There are loads of suttas in which sila is urged to calm the mind, thereby supporting entry to jhanas,
      and jhanas are urged for calming the mind. There is also at least one sutta that describes how a calm mind is like a placid pool of water in which a
      variety of phenomena are easily visible due to it's clarity. Conversely, in some suttas the lack of clarity in an uncalm mind is likened to an agitated
      pool of water that consequently cannot be seen into.

      D: no doubt about the emphases of a calm or peaceful mind within the suttas ...not to talk about other faithes .
      I recall an ancient Indian saying : fast mind- a fool, slow mind -a holy man, quite mind -god ..an universal truth

      > ===============
      > [D:] My question concerned in particular your comment ''Mindfulness doesn't pick and choose and cannot be made to do so ' .
      > However to remain focused on a certain object - at least for the while of investigation - means mental action /kamma doesn't it?
      > The choice is a matter of intention, its force originated by sankhara (khanda) , which is needed for right effort /guarding the senses and
      consequently > sati and jhana . The involvement of will /cetana seems to me missing in your interpretation ... (?)
      > ===============

      J: Had to smile here: Howard being faulted for lack of recognition of the role of will/cetana ;-))

      For your information, Dieter, Howard is a champion of the role of cetana in the development of awareness/insight.
      You are right in that, Jon. :-)

      D: well, that may be so ..but when you read the line again 'The involvement of will /cetana seems to me missing in your interpretation ... (?)'
      you will recognize that I refer to this special context besídes waiting to be corrected by adding '(?)'

      with Metta Dieter

      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • ptaus1
      Hi Sarah, Thanks for the extra info. ... pt: I thought as much :) Best wishes pt
      Message 106 of 106 , Aug 19, 2010
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        Hi Sarah,

        Thanks for the extra info.

        > S: yes, and I think that if you check, by "the body becoming wieldy", it is the cetasikas referred to - cittas and cetasikas, not physical body. That wasn't the Buddha's concern.
        > In other words, kaya-kammannata is the the wieldy state of the (mental) body, while and citta-kammannata is the wieldy state of consciousness.

        > > pt: Though
        > > it's another matter how does one become energetic in the first place...
        > ...
        > S: Again, Right View is the Forerunner....:)

        pt: I thought as much :)

        Best wishes
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