[dsg] Re: rules and rituals sukin pt
- Dear Ken O, pt (Alex, Kevin & all),
--- In firstname.lastname@example.org, Ken O <ashkenn2k@...> wrote:
> >S: ....I have zero interest in "speculating about methods, recitation etc." It all just leads to more papanca, more proliferation, and no understanding at this moment, as far as I can tell.
> KO: We have to be clear on how Papanca arise. It is because of craving, conceit and ditthi and not because of rules, methods, action or concepts. Pse see the quote I have written to Alex before.
> pg 50, The Discourse on the Roots of Existence - Commentary
> <<There in "he perceives being as beings" - the method (of interpretation) has been stated**. "He conceives beings," etc,: this and the following can be interpreted through three conceivings.<...>
S: Yes, very good quotes and no one has suggested that papanca is anything other than "craving, conceit and ditthi". My comment was that speculating and clinging to ideas of methods and recitations leads to more of the same papanca.
From the same text:
"Objection: If the conventional expression is applied, what is the fault? Don't ariyans also make use fo the conventional expression, as when they say: 'this, venerable sire, is the great earth.' etc.?
"Reply: It is not the mere employment of the expression that is intended here, but the wrong adherence which occurs through a perversion of perception....."
No one has suggested that conventional actions such as listening and reading are wrong (as you suggest I've said #106635). It is the "wrong adherence" to the terms or expressions that is the problem, such as when rules or methods of conventional actions are introduced to be followed, or when dhammas are taken as atta, rather than a developing of understanding of present dhammas.
Here's another good example from the same text, regarding jhana and the importance of right view:
"One who obtains jhaana through the earth-kasina may adhere to the object perceived in his meditation-vision as a self; or he may take that object as a sign of his superiority. Thus he conceives 'I am earth' (through the conceivings of views and conceit, respectively). Apprehending this kasina object as 'my self', he conceives 'earth is mine.' On the other hand, if he adhere to this object doctrinally as another person or as a god, he conceives 'another is earth'; and if he adheres to it as the self of another, he conceives 'earth belongs to another.'"
And for pt:
"....the defining of mentality-materiality (naamaruupavavatthaana) is the full understanding of the known; from insight-comprehension of the groups (kalaapasammasana) as far as conformity-knowledge (anuloma) is the full understanding by scrutinization; and the knowledge of the ariyan path is the full understanding by abandoning.
"Therein, the 'full understanding of the known' is the wisdom of full understanding by which one fully understands, delimits (paricchindati), the plane of insight (vipassanaabhuumi)."
"The 'full understanding of scrutinization' understands the five clinging aggregates in their true nature as impermanent, (suffering, and non-self), by delimiting them through insight-comprehension and scrutinizing their modes of impermanence, etc., together with their accompaniments."
S: Paramattha dhammas, not concepts...
- Hi, Alex -
In a message dated 5/23/2010 10:05:04 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
You could be right here.
That's music to my ears, Alex! (Not because I might be "right," but
because you are exhibiting the so very rare characteristic of
reconsidering!!! That is SO admirable! Consider me to be bowing to you. :-)
/A change in anything is a change in everything/
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