Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

How to be a good guy?

Expand Messages
  • Lukas
    Dear friends, Phil I was at the party today night and we had some situations. I realized now that that was not good. How to have more right speach. I ve found
    Message 1 of 18 , May 1 12:21 AM
    • 0 Attachment
      Dear friends, Phil

      I was at the party today night and we had some situations.

      I realized now that that was not good.

      How to have more right speach. I've found I had a lot of bad speach. How to change it?

      This is very easy and pleasure to have bad speach, but how to change this, how to have good peacful to other speach?

      Phil and all how to have more right speach? How to train in this. Can you tell please how you do this?

      Is it good to have some renunciation? What are the conditions for renunciation?

      Best wishes
      Lukas
    • philip
      Hi Lukas Thanks for inlcuding me especially. I feel confident that you are in fact a good guy, your consistent concern about the way you behave with people
      Message 2 of 18 , May 1 6:08 AM
      • 0 Attachment
        Hi Lukas

        Thanks for inlcuding me especially. I feel confident that you are in fact a good guy, your consistent concern about the way you behave with people makes me feel confident about that.I feel confident that you are not content to think "this is all anatta, it has fallen away" as a means of being placated about bad behaviour. Could I ask you to refer back to the post I wrote when you were concerned about your anger? I guess it was a couple of months ago. I don't think I would answer much differently now than I did then!

        Metta,

        Phil

        p.s Today I shouted at my wife. Afterwards, there was consideration of how it was just accumulated dhammas at work, anatta etc. That is true. But it doesn't change the fact that shouting is bad, good people don't shout, I will aspire to be a good person who doesn't shout, and will follow the Buddha's advice in the suttanta about how to be that kind of person. And I am confident I am coming closer day to day to being that sort of good person. When there is failure, there is reflection on anatta and so on, so remorse is not accumulated, remorse doesn't help. Good luck, let's just keep listening to the Buddha, we'll be ok.

        --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Lukas" <szmicio@...> wrote:
        >
        > Dear friends, Phil
        >
        > I was at the party today night and we had some situations.
        >
        >
      • Nina van Gorkom
        Dear Lukas, ... N: The citta, kusala or akusala, is the source of the speech you utter. Through satipa.t.thaana you will know the different cittas that arise.
        Message 3 of 18 , May 1 7:42 AM
        • 0 Attachment
          Dear Lukas,
          Op 1-mei-2010, om 9:21 heeft Lukas het volgende geschreven:

          > How to have more right speach. I've found I had a lot of bad
          > speach. How to change it?
          >
          > This is very easy and pleasure to have bad speach, but how to
          > change this, how to have good peacful to other speach?
          >
          > Phil and all how to have more right speach? How to train in this.
          > Can you tell please how you do this?
          -------
          N: The citta, kusala or akusala, is the source of the speech you
          utter. Through satipa.t.thaana you will know the different cittas
          that arise. It is ignorance of realities that conditions a lot of
          akusala.
          You cannot immediately change your habits, but gradually pa~n~naa can
          see the disadvantage of akusala. It arises because of conditions. We
          do not know what will arise the next moment, cittas arise and fall
          away so rapidly, kusala cittas and akusala cittas alternate.
          Bhante Dhammadharo: <We usually think about realities instead of
          knowing the characteristics of realities when they appear. When we
          have mettaa and karu.naa we think of other people's welfare, but
          defilements are not eradicated by mettaa and karu.naa. Through
          satipa.t.thaana defilements will eventually be eradicated and we
          shall never harm anyone else. Through satipa.t.thaana we can help
          others more; at the same time also mettaa and all other kinds of
          kusala are developed even more.>
          --------

          >
          > L:Is it good to have some renunciation? What are the conditions for
          > renunciation?
          -------
          N: The commentary says that all kinds of kusala are nekkhamma,
          renunciation. You renounce your own pleasure and comfort, you
          renounde what is akusala.
          -------
          Nina.

          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Lukas
          Dear Phil I thank you so much for you answer. I will try to change. This is really good to have a wise friends. Can you help me more to develop more kusala?
          Message 4 of 18 , May 1 2:43 PM
          • 0 Attachment
            Dear Phil
            I thank you so much for you answer. I will try to change. This is really good to have a wise friends. Can you help me more to develop more kusala?

            > p.s Today I shouted at my wife. Afterwards, there was consideration of how it was just accumulated dhammas at work, anatta etc. That is true. But it doesn't change the fact that shouting is bad, good people don't shout, I will aspire to be a good person who doesn't shout, and will follow the Buddha's advice in the suttanta about how to be that kind of person. And I am confident I am coming closer day to day to being that sort of good person. When there is failure, there is reflection on anatta and so on, so remorse is not accumulated, remorse doesn't help. Good luck, let's just keep listening to the Buddha, we'll be ok.

            L: I forgot Buddha teachings about kusala. I will try to be good.

            Best wishes
            Lukas
          • Lukas
            Dear Nina, thank you for Bhante Dhammadhara words. Very helpful. But now I feel like I have to change my behaviour. This doesnt lead to good way. B.
            Message 5 of 18 , May 1 2:54 PM
            • 0 Attachment
              Dear Nina,
              thank you for Bhante Dhammadhara words. Very helpful. But now I feel like I have to change my behaviour. This doesnt lead to good way.
              B. Dhammadhara is right but how can I change my behaviour. maybe Phil can help me.

              > > L:Is it good to have some renunciation? What are the conditions for
              > > renunciation?
              > -------
              > N: The commentary says that all kinds of kusala are nekkhamma,
              > renunciation. You renounce your own pleasure and comfort, you
              > renounde what is akusala.
              > -------

              L: Nina this is very true, but what can I say now, no renunciation.
              Especially when I am not reading.

              How to not harm other people?
              I forgot this is very important.

              Best wishes
              Lukas
            • philip
              Hi again Lukas As an afterthought, and just in case you don t dig up that other post I wrote a couple of months ago, of course I am not saying that trying to
              Message 6 of 18 , May 1 5:39 PM
              • 0 Attachment
                Hi again Lukas

                As an afterthought, and just in case you don't dig up that other post I wrote a couple of months ago, of course I am not saying that trying to be a good person is the end purpose and true and deep message of the Buddha's teaching - that would be an insult to the Buddha. You have lots of reminders from people here that understanding the present moment is where liberation comes or doesn't, so you are lucky to be able to have good Dhamma friends that bring you back to nama and rupa of the present moment. But it is my opinion (and I feel that it is in line with the way Dhamma is/was taught by the Buddha) that in order to develop that subtle, liberating understanding of the present moment, many lifetimes are required - many, many - and that for lay followers such as ourselves there should be consideration of conventional behaviour, the kind of behaviour use consider, and that that proper behaviour helps to build a kind of shelter within which the deeper understanding can gradually, gradually develop. And our lobha, all that lobha, there is so much of it, has to feed somewhere. I feel that it is best to let it feed on considerations of what kind of person we are, if it feeds on the deep teaching I think there will be too much hunger for results that just covers over the essence of the deep teaching. For
                example, you often ask Nina or Sarah or others, "how can I have more
                sati, how can I understand the present moment better" and things like that. I think that is your lobha feeding on the deep teaching. I think asking "how can I be a better person?" is a suitable question for lay followers like us, but if we ask "how can I understand the present momeent better" there is hunger for results that will just cover up the deep essence or something like that!

                But you keep listening to the deep teaching, and you keep thinking about your conventional behaviour and whether it is harmful to yourself and others, you have a good balance, I think. You'll be fine!

                Metta,

                Phil

                > L: I forgot Buddha teachings about kusala. I will try to be good.
                >
                > Best wishes
                > Lukas
                >
              • truth_aerator
                Dear Lukas, ... Do your best and let conditions take care of the rest. Please don t use accumulations as an excuse to do bad deeds. MN20 lists good methods.
                Message 7 of 18 , May 1 7:52 PM
                • 0 Attachment
                  Dear Lukas,


                  >But now I feel like I have to change my behaviour.


                  Do your best and let conditions take care of the rest.

                  Please don't use "accumulations" as an excuse to do bad deeds.


                  MN20 lists good methods.
                  "There is the case where evil, unskillful thoughts — imbued with desire, aversion, or delusion — arise in a monk while he is referring to and attending to a particular theme.

                  1) He should attend to another theme, apart from that one, connected with what is skillful.

                  2)he should scrutinize the drawbacks of those thoughts:

                  3)he should pay no mind and pay no attention to those thoughts.

                  4)He should attend to the relaxing of thought-fabrication with regard to those thoughts.

                  5)he should beat down, constrain, and crush his mind with his awareness. As — with his teeth clenched and his tongue pressed against the roof of his mouth — he is beating down, constraining, and crushing his mind with his awareness, those evil, unskillful thoughts are abandoned and subside. With their abandoning, he steadies his mind right within, settles it, unifies it, and concentrates it. Just as a strong man, seizing a weaker man by the head or the throat or the shoulders, would beat him down, constrain, and crush him; in the same way, if evil, unskillful thoughts — imbued with desire, aversion or delusion — still arise in the monk while he is attending to the relaxing of thought-fabrication with regard to those thoughts, then — with his teeth clenched and his tongue pressed against the roof of his mouth — he should beat down, constrain, and crush his mind with his awareness. As — with his teeth clenched and his tongue pressed against the roof of his mouth — he is beating down, constraining, and crushing his mind with his awareness, those evil, unskillful thoughts are abandoned and subside. With their abandoning, he steadies his mind right within, settles it, unifies it, and concentrates it.
                  http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.020.than.html






                  With metta,

                  Alex
                • Nina van Gorkom
                  Dear Lukas, ... N: What helps is considering how you yourselves would like to be treated by others. You like others to be kind to you, don t you? The Buddha
                  Message 8 of 18 , May 2 7:12 AM
                  • 0 Attachment
                    Dear Lukas,
                    Op 1-mei-2010, om 23:54 heeft Lukas het volgende geschreven:

                    > How to not harm other people?
                    > I forgot this is very important.
                    ------
                    N: What helps is considering how you yourselves would like to be
                    treated by others. You like others to be kind to you, don't you? The
                    Buddha gave us many kinds of good advice.
                    Another thought: Saariputta would like to be a dustrag that others
                    use for wiping their feet. He was so humble. He did not cling at all
                    to the importance of self. Even when he was insulted, he did not
                    mind. What is this self: only fleeting elements, a mere nothing.
                    --------
                    Nina.



                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • Lukas
                    Dear Nina, ... L: Very useful. I think that for me considering more and more: just elements, will help me to be more humble. But I cannot be humble when I
                    Message 9 of 18 , May 2 7:22 AM
                    • 0 Attachment
                      Dear Nina,

                      > > How to not harm other people?
                      > > I forgot this is very important.
                      > ------
                      > N: What helps is considering how you yourselves would like to be
                      > treated by others. You like others to be kind to you, don't you? The
                      > Buddha gave us many kinds of good advice.
                      > Another thought: Saariputta would like to be a dustrag that others
                      > use for wiping their feet. He was so humble. He did not cling at all
                      > to the importance of self. Even when he was insulted, he did not
                      > mind. What is this self: only fleeting elements, a mere nothing.

                      L: Very useful.
                      I think that for me considering more and more: just elements, will help me to be more humble. But I cannot be humble when I want.

                      Best wishes
                      Lukas
                    • Ken O
                      Dear Lukas ... look at the commentary to the sutta instead as it describe the details better, it is online in the access to insight.  It is a good read and
                      Message 10 of 18 , May 2 8:59 AM
                      • 0 Attachment
                        Dear Lukas

                        >MN20 lists good methods.

                        look at the commentary to the sutta instead as it describe the details better, it is online in the access to insight.  It is a good read and some of the finer points of the usefulness of concepts to the development of path.  Read with an open mind. 

                        http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/soma/wheel021.html

                        cheers
                        Ken O
                      • Ken O
                        Dear Lukas Nina is right 
                        Message 11 of 18 , May 2 9:06 AM
                        • 0 Attachment
                          Dear Lukas

                          Nina is right  <<You cannot immediately change your habits, but gradually pa~n~naa can
                          >see the disadvantage of akusala. >>

                          be patient, no one can change over night, it takes time.  I also have many akusala moments and habits, we have to learn to understand them.  Dont try too hard because eventually it conditions more dosa as one is impatient with results or with changes to our behaviour.  Only when the dhamma that arise is understood, then the change could happen.  it takes time and be patient with change.   You are changing when you learn dhamma, just that you dont notice it.  I believe you have changed, if not why are so concern about aksuala behaviour.  Have faith in dhamma, it just takes time


                          cheers
                          Ken O
                        • Lukas
                          Dear Ken 0, Phil, Nina, Alex and all ... L: Yes, detailes are very accurate but I still dont know how to apply to that. Nina mentioned she will explain objects
                          Message 12 of 18 , May 2 9:29 AM
                          • 0 Attachment
                            Dear Ken 0, Phil, Nina, Alex and all

                            > >MN20 lists good methods.
                            >
                            > look at the commentary to the sutta instead as it describe the details better, it is online in the access to insight.  It is a good read and some of the finer points of the usefulness of concepts to the development of path.  Read with an open mind. 

                            L: Yes, detailes are very accurate but I still dont know how to apply to that. Nina mentioned she will explain objects of meditiation. I am looking forward to that.

                            This is from commentaries you gave, and this concerned me a bit recently. Does this first gattha refers only to sensous desires or also to 'attraction' with character of a girl?:

                            "When greed arises in regard to living beings with thoughts like the following: "This one's hands are beautiful," "This one's feet are beautiful," one should think by way of the unlovely thus: To what are you attached? Are you attached to the hair of the head, the hair of the body, nails, teeth, skin... or urine? [This refers to the thirty-two parts of the body.]

                            This body (attabhava) held up by three hundred bones, bound with nine hundred nerve strings, plastered over with nine hundred lumps of flesh, wrapped completely in a wet skin, covered with the color of the cuticle (chavi ragena), drips filth from the nine open sores and the ninety-nine thousand pores of the hairs of the body. It is filled with a collection of bones, is bad-smelling, contemptible, repellent, and is the sum of the thirty-two parts. There is neither essence nor excellence in it. To one who thinks thus of the unlovely (nature of the body), the greed connected with living beings is cast out. Therefore the different object is the thinking on the object (nimitta) which produces greed, by way of the meditation on the unlovely (nature of the body)."

                            L: I have to say but I've had those kind of reflections in life, they were very natural and lead to wise attention. But I dont know how to apply to this object now, to make thise wise reflection arise again. How to do this? Shall I force myself when seeing a nice girl: this is just decaying body, nothing plesant with that? Or those psyches are so fleeting nothing to be attracted to. anicca.

                            I can do this even now, I can sit and reflect, but I feel always like I am loosing something. cause I miss realities now. Thinking just thinking, conditioned dhamma now, nothing important. I used to that.

                            I have doubt.
                            I can sit reflect asubha of the body or even recitate this.
                            But I feel that I can miss the rality, like thinking now.

                            Best wishes
                            Lukas
                          • Lukas
                            Dear Ken O, ... L: My habits didnt change much. I cant even measure this. ... L: I really understand the changing by graduall development of satipatthana. I
                            Message 13 of 18 , May 2 9:35 AM
                            • 0 Attachment
                              Dear Ken O,

                              > Nina is right  <<You cannot immediately change your habits, but gradually pa~n~naa can
                              > >see the disadvantage of akusala. >>

                              L: My habits didnt change much. I cant even measure this.

                              > be patient, no one can change over night, it takes time.  I also have many akusala moments and habits, we have to learn to understand them.  Dont try too hard because eventually it conditions more dosa as one is impatient with results or with changes to our behaviour.  Only when the dhamma that arise is understood, then the change could happen.  it takes time and be patient with change.   You are changing when you learn dhamma, just that you dont notice it.  I believe you have changed, if not why are so concern about aksuala behaviour.  Have faith in dhamma, it just takes time

                              L: I really understand the changing by graduall development of satipatthana. I feel this help gradually to have less ignorance.
                              thinking, seein, hearing...

                              But I am not able how can I change habits by developemnt of samatha.
                              This doesnt work on me.

                              Best wishes
                              Lukas
                            • truth_aerator
                              Dear Lukas, all, This is one of the reasons that you need Jhana. Strong and regular Jhana suppresses hindrances for a long time. When one has access to bliss
                              Message 14 of 18 , May 2 9:53 AM
                              • 0 Attachment
                                Dear Lukas, all,


                                This is one of the reasons that you need Jhana. Strong and regular Jhana suppresses hindrances for a long time. When one has access to bliss far greater than sensual, the mind NATURALLY lets go of the coarser pleasure for the greater.


                                "And when a monk has not abandoned these five obstacles, hindrances that overwhelm awareness and weaken discernment, when he is without strength and weak in discernment: for him to understand what is for his own benefit, to understand what is for the benefit of others, to understand what is for the benefit of both, to realize a superior human state, a truly noble distinction in knowledge & vision: that is impossible."
                                http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an05/an05.051.than.html


                                Until you abandon the hindrances, all study is just concepts and important only as a preliminary step. If "momentary, billionth of a second" suppression is enough for some, it is not enough for me. I think that this applies for many people.


                                Jhana suppresses hindrances well, and repeating Jhana again and again, on higher and higher level makes hindrances weaker and weaker.


                                ""Now, when a monk has abandoned these five obstacles, hindrances that overwhelm awareness and weaken discernment, when he is strong in discernment: for him to understand what is for his own benefit, to understand what is for the benefit of others, to understand what is for the benefit of both, to realize a superior human state, a truly noble distinction in knowledge & vision: that is possible."
                                http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an05/an05.051.than.html



                                In DN29 PTS DN 3.131 the real 4 Jhanas are said to lead to:
                                "viragaya nirodhaya upasamaya abhinnaya sambodhaya nibbanaya samvattanti"
                                "...to dispassion, to cessation, to calm, to direct knowledge, to awakening, to Nibbana."



                                25. It may happen, Cunda, that Wanderers teaching other doctrines than ours may declare : For those who live addicted and devoted to these four modes of pleasure[alex: 4 jhanas], brother, how much fruit, how many advantages are to be expected ? Them ye should answer thus : Four kinds of fruit, brother, four advantages are to be expected. What are the four ? Firstly, the case of a brother who by the complete destruction of the three fetters becomes a Stream-winner, saved from disaster hereafter, certain to attain Enlightenment. Secondly, the case of a brother who by the complete destruction of three fetters has so diminished passion and hate and illusion that he has become a Once- Returner, and returning but once to this world will make an end of ill. Thirdly, the case of a brother who, by the complete destruction of the five last fetters, will be reborn in another world, thence never to return, there to pass away. Fourthly, the case of the brother who, by the destruction of the mental Intoxicants, has come to know and realize for himself, even in this life, emancipation of intellect and emancipation of insight, and therein abides. These, brother, are the four kinds of fruit, the four advantages to be expected by those who are addicted and devoted to those four modes of pleasure.
                                http://tipitaka.wikia.com/wiki/Pasadika_Sutta



                                With metta,


                                Alex
                              • Ken O
                                Dear Lukas ... KO:  try the one that is most suitable for you.  if samatha is not the correct way, then use seeing, hearing etc that suits you.   No hard
                                Message 15 of 18 , May 3 7:22 AM
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  Dear Lukas


                                  >L: I really understand the changing by graduall development of satipatthana. I feel this help gradually to have less ignorance.
                                  >thinking, seein, hearing...
                                  >
                                  >But I am not able how can I change habits by developemnt of samatha.
                                  >This doesnt work on me.

                                  KO:  try the one that is most suitable for you.  if samatha is not the correct way, then use seeing, hearing etc that suits you.   No hard and fast rule, select those that suits your way of thinking. 


                                  Cheers
                                  Ken O
                                • Lukas
                                  Dear Ken O, ... L: I read mindfulness occupied with the body recollection from Visudhi. It looks like I have to sit and start verbal recitation first. Go from
                                  Message 16 of 18 , May 3 10:13 PM
                                  • 0 Attachment
                                    Dear Ken O,

                                    > KO:  try the one that is most suitable for you.  if samatha is not the correct way, then use seeing, hearing etc that suits you.   No hard and fast rule, select those that suits your way of thinking. 

                                    L: I read mindfulness occupied with the body recollection from Visudhi.
                                    It looks like I have to sit and start verbal recitation first.
                                    Go from feet to head and back. And apply to different methods.
                                    This leads to samatha. But what way shall i reflect parts of the body if I want stay with vipassana?

                                    To be honest I've learned that my only chance to develop more kusala is vipassana. This always bring kusala. If I try samatha methods this makes me disappointed and brings a lot of clinging. This is like a dog that is close in seperate room. If you close the door he starts barking, but if you put the door open just a bit, he stop barking and go to sleep. This is me with vipassana, I dont think much of kusala development, so I can take rest and then kusala appears.

                                    Best wishes
                                    Lukas
                                  • Ken O
                                    Dear Lukas ... KO:  It should suit your way of thinking.  If you cannot reflect on it, leave it and use the other methods that you have been using.  this is
                                    Message 17 of 18 , May 15 5:48 AM
                                    • 0 Attachment
                                      Dear Lukas


                                      >L: I have to say but I've had those kind of reflections in life, they were very natural and lead to wise attention. But I dont know how to apply to this object now, to make thise wise reflection arise again. How to do this? Shall I force myself when seeing a nice girl: this is just decaying body, nothing plesant with that? Or those psyches are so fleeting nothing to be attracted to. anicca.
                                      >
                                      KO:  It should suit your way of thinking.  If you cannot reflect on it, leave it and use the other methods that you have been using.  this is for wise reflections, reflection the disadvantages of beautiful objects. 

                                      Cheers
                                      Ken O
                                    • sarah
                                      Dear Lukas (& Ken O), ... ... S: No hard and fast rule , no rule at all. So don t even think about trying anything, using anything or selecting
                                      Message 18 of 18 , May 21 4:24 AM
                                      • 0 Attachment
                                        Dear Lukas (& Ken O),

                                        > KO:� try the one that is most suitable for you.� if samatha is not the correct way, then use seeing, hearing etc�that suits you.� �No hard and fast rule, select those that suits your way of thinking.�
                                        ...
                                        S: "No hard and fast rule", no rule at all. So don't even think about "trying" anything, "using" anything or "selecting" anything. It's also silabbataparamasa - adherence to rites and rituals!
                                        ...
                                        >
                                        > L: I read mindfulness occupied with the body recollection from Visudhi.
                                        > It looks like I have to sit and start verbal recitation first.
                                        > Go from feet to head and back. And apply to different methods.
                                        > This leads to samatha. But what way shall i reflect parts of the body if I want stay with vipassana?
                                        ...
                                        S: No, if you understand and do as you suggest, "applying different methods", it won't lead to samatha. It'll lead to more attachment, ignorance and aversion. It's not a matter of following rules, "staying" with anything, but understanding the present dhammas without desire for results.
                                        ...
                                        > To be honest I've learned that my only chance to develop more kusala is vipassana. This always bring kusala.
                                        ...
                                        S: At moments of satipatthana or vipassana development, there is samatha. At moments of dana or sila or metta, there is samatha. The citta at such times is calm and free from akusala, free from the hindrances already.
                                        ...
                                        >If I try samatha methods this makes me disappointed and brings a lot of clinging.
                                        ...
                                        S: Of course, because it's motivated by attachment and wrong view.
                                        ...
                                        >This is like a dog that is close in seperate room. If you close the door he starts barking, but if you put the door open just a bit, he stop barking and go to sleep. This is me with vipassana, I dont think much of kusala development, so I can take rest and then kusala appears.
                                        ...
                                        S: I like the analogy. Open the door a little and let the sleeping dog lie! Yes, relax, stop obsessing about Lukas and his kusala or akusala and let right understanding do its work. It's panna which finds the hole in the roof (or closed door?) of lobha.

                                        Metta

                                        Sarah
                                        ========
                                      Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.