Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Re: [dsg] Re: Satipatthana was :Notes about the three rounds, no 4.

Expand Messages
  • Ken O
    Dear Deiter ... KO:  Absorptions are not possible without panna.  One requires panna to be withdrawn from sensual desire.  ... them - describing how the
    Message 1 of 10 , Feb 2, 2010
    • 0 Attachment
      Dear Deiter

      >D: good point..sounds indeed a bit strange "especially in the absorptions " ..

      KO:  Absorptions are not possible without panna.  One requires panna to be withdrawn from sensual desire. 

      >
      >perhaps he had in mind what Thanissaro Bhikkhu writes in his introduction to the Maha Satipatthana Sutta (DN 22)
      >http://www.accessto insight.org/ tipitaka/ dn/dn.22. 0.than.html ..excerpt:
      >
      >'Remaining focused" refers to the element of concentration in the practice, as the meditator holds to one particular frame of reference amid the conflicting currents of experience. "Ardent" refers to the effort put into the practice, trying to abandon unskillful states of mind and develop skillful ones in their stead, all the while trying to discern the difference between the two. "Alert" means being clearly aware of what is happening in the present. "Mindful," as mentioned above, means being able to keep the frame of reference continually in mind. As these qualities work together, they bring the mind to a solid state of concentration. Although satipatthana practice is often said to be separate from the practice of jhana, a number of suttas - such as MN 125 (not in this collection) and AN 8.63 - equate the successful completion of this first stage with the attainment of the first level of jhana. This point is confirmed by the many suttas - MN 118 among
      them - describing how the practice of satipatthana brings to completion the factors for Awakening, which coincide with the factors of jhana.'
      >snip

      KO:  Without panna, there is no abondment of unskillful states of mind.   If jhanas is the practise of satipatthana, then those born in Brahmas would have been enlighted without help of Buddha.


      >this sounds to me very strange especially when we talk about satipatthana ... considering the Buddha's conclusive statement :
      >
      >"Now, if anyone would develop these four frames of reference in this way for seven years, one of two fruits can be expected for him: either gnosis right here & now, or - if there be any remnant of clinging-sustenance - non-return.
      >"Let alone seven years. If anyone would develop these four frames of reference in this way for six years... five... four... three... two years... one year... seven months... six months... five... four... three... two months... one month... half a month, one of two fruits can be expected for him: either gnosis right here & now, or - if there be any remnant of clinging-sustenance - non-return.
      >
      >"Let alone half a month. If anyone would develop these four frames of reference in this way for seven days, one of two fruits can be expected for him: either gnosis right here & now, or - if there be any remnant of clinging-sustenance - non-return.
      >
      >"'This is the direct path for the purification of beings, for the overcoming of sorrow & lamentation, for the disappearance of pain & distress, for the attainment of the right method, & for the realization of Unbinding - in other words, the four frames of reference.' Thus was it said, and in reference to this was it said."
      >
      >That is what the Blessed One said. Gratified, the monks delighted in the Blessed One's words.'

      KO:  It is not strange, it is the context being said.  Buddha, chief disciples takes many aeons to accomplish their panna. 


      Cheers
      Ken O


      Get your preferred Email name!
      Now you can @... and @...
      http://mail.promotions.yahoo.com/newdomains/sg/
    • Nina van Gorkom
      Dear Dieter, ... N: I am catching up with old mails. You quoted Ven. Thanissaro who stresses concentration and jhaana. Then about the gradual development:
      Message 2 of 10 , Feb 11, 2010
      • 0 Attachment
        Dear Dieter,
        Op 1-feb-2010, om 19:31 heeft Dieter Moeller het volgende geschreven:

        > in particular:... paññå is gradually developed from life to
        > life..snip ..we do not know when they will arise. It takes many
        > lives, but we should not be impatient.'
        >
        > this sounds to me very strange especially when we talk about
        > satipatthana ... considering the Buddha's conclusive statement :
        >
        > "Now, if anyone would develop these four frames of reference in
        > this way for seven years, one of two fruits can be expected for
        > him: either gnosis right here & now, or - if there be any remnant
        > of clinging-sustenance - non-return.
        > "Let alone seven years.
        -------
        N: I am catching up with old mails. You quoted Ven. Thanissaro who
        stresses concentration and jhaana. Then about the gradual
        development: seven years, etc.
        Before, several posts were exchanged about this point. I wrote that
        it is not helpful to think of a future result and I still think so.
        What about the present moment, do we really know it as it is? If not,
        we should rather develop more understanding of it. It depends on the
        right conditions when the result will arise. Let us be encouraged by
        this sutta, hearing that the right cause will surely bring the right
        result.

        Nina.



        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • truth_aerator
        Dear Nina, KenH, Howard, Dieter, all, ... I have not read a lot of Ven. TB writings, but what I do want to say is that development of Jhana DOES require lots
        Message 3 of 10 , Feb 11, 2010
        • 0 Attachment
          Dear Nina, KenH, Howard, Dieter, all,



          >, Nina van Gorkom <vangorko@...> wrote:
          >
          > Dear Dieter,
          > Op 1-feb-2010, om 19:31 heeft Dieter Moeller het volgende geschreven:
          >
          > > in particular:... paññå is gradually developed from life to
          > > life..snip ..we do not know when they will arise. It takes many
          > > lives, but we should not be impatient.'
          > >
          > > this sounds to me very strange especially when we talk about
          > > satipatthana ... considering the Buddha's conclusive statement :
          > >
          > > "Now, if anyone would develop these four frames of reference in
          > > this way for seven years, one of two fruits can be expected for
          > > him: either gnosis right here & now, or - if there be any remnant
          > > of clinging-sustenance - non-return.
          > > "Let alone seven years.
          > -------
          > N: I am catching up with old mails. You quoted Ven. Thanissaro who >stresses concentration and jhaana. Then about the gradual
          > development: seven years, etc.

          I have not read a lot of Ven. TB writings, but what I do want to say is that development of Jhana DOES require lots of wisdom. Ajahn Brahm who teaches Jhana, does teach a lot of satipatthana, and Jhana does require the use of wisdom. As Dhp says "There is no Jhana without wisdom".


          The problem with "wisdom" or what some people take to be wisdom, is that many people think that they are wise already. But all this wisdom is borrowed wisdom. Real wisdom leads to peace, calm and awakening. If a person speaks more wisdom than an Arahant Sariputta, and yet isn't a Stream Enterer, or cannot reach Jhana (or at least "access concentration"), then I wonder if it is real or worthwhile wisdom at all. Talk is one thing. But does one walk the walk?


          As to the path and its duration. I see two extremes: One is to say that awakening is so hard an unattainable that it will take Aeons for it to occur. I believe that this is Slandering the power of the Dhamma. This is an excuse to postpone the effort indefinately into the future. It is a clever trick by the Mara.

          Of course another extreme is to want Awakening today. While it was possible to become awakening in 12 hours (MN85 sutta, if I remember correctly) - it is not very likely today. Still, it is good to have a reasonable and challenging direction to follow.


          " A bhikkhu endowed with these five factors gaining the training from the Thus Gone One in the morning, for whatever cause sons of clansmen rightfully go forth homeless that highest end of the holy life, he here and now, knowing, realizing, will attain in the evening, or advised in the evening would realise the next morning."
          http://metta.lk/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pitaka/2Majjhima-Nikaya/Majjhima2/085-bodhirajakumara-e1.html

          One day could be enough! At least in those times. So 7 days is quite a long period of time compared to 1/2 a day, or an instant as for some people like Bahiya.


          With metta,

          Alex
        • Nina van Gorkom
          Dear Alex, ... N: Not unattainable, but the amount of our defilements is so vast. We have to be realisitic. ... N: Not postponing the development of
          Message 4 of 10 , Feb 12, 2010
          • 0 Attachment
            Dear Alex,
            Op 12-feb-2010, om 1:19 heeft truth_aerator het volgende geschreven:
            >
            > As to the path and its duration. I see two extremes: One is to say
            > that awakening is so hard an unattainable that it will take Aeons
            > for it to occur. I believe that this is Slandering the power of the
            > Dhamma. This is an excuse to postpone the effort indefinately into
            > the future. It is a clever trick by the Mara.
            -------
            N: Not unattainable, but the amount of our defilements is so vast. We
            have to be realisitic.
            --------
            >
            > A:Of course another extreme is to want Awakening today. While it
            > was possible to become awakening in 12 hours (MN85 sutta, if I
            > remember correctly) - it is not very likely today. Still, it is
            > good to have a reasonable and challenging direction to follow.
            ------
            N: Not postponing the development of understanding of the realities
            that are right at hand: attachment now, doubt now. Seeing and then
            thinking on account of what is seen. We believe that we see people
            all the time but that is wrong. The difference between seeing and
            thinking can be understood. This is very urgent!
            -----------
            Nina.


            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • truth_aerator
            Dear Nina, all, ... Angulimala has murdered 999 people. He still became an Arahant. I do not think that any of us has murdered 1 person, let alone 999. If he
            Message 5 of 10 , Feb 12, 2010
            • 0 Attachment
              Dear Nina, all,

              > Nina van Gorkom <vangorko@...> wrote:
              >
              > Dear Alex,
              > Op 12-feb-2010, om 1:19 heeft truth_aerator het volgende geschreven:
              > >
              > > As to the path and its duration. I see two extremes: One is to say
              > > that awakening is so hard an unattainable that it will take Aeons
              > > for it to occur. I believe that this is Slandering the power of the
              > > Dhamma. This is an excuse to postpone the effort indefinately into
              > > the future. It is a clever trick by the Mara.
              > -------
              > N: Not unattainable, but the amount of our defilements is so vast. >We have to be realisitic.
              > --------
              >


              Angulimala has murdered 999 people. He still became an Arahant. I do not think that any of us has murdered 1 person, let alone 999. If he could do it, so can we.


              In the suttas the path to stream entry (saddhanusarin and dhammanusarin) are not so difficult to attain for motivated Buddhist.
              From there one would die as stream-enterer at least. So it is possible for many to end samsara within 7 lives.



              If anyone interested, we can talk about it.


              With metta,

              Alex
            • Nina van Gorkom
              Dear Alex, ... N: I would rather pay attention to the stages of insight that have to precede being a streamenterer, those are difficult enough. Even the first
              Message 6 of 10 , Feb 12, 2010
              • 0 Attachment
                Dear Alex,
                Op 12-feb-2010, om 18:49 heeft truth_aerator het volgende geschreven:

                > In the suttas the path to stream entry (saddhanusarin and
                > dhammanusarin) are not so difficult to attain for motivated Buddhist.
                > From there one would die as stream-enterer at least. So it is
                > possible for many to end samsara within 7 lives.
                --------
                N: I would rather pay attention to the stages of insight that have to
                precede being a streamenterer, those are difficult enough. Even the
                first stage of tender insight: directly knowing the difference
                between nama and rupa when they appear. Through insight the
                difference between sense-door process and mind-door process will be
                known, but cittas pass so rapidly. Not an easy thing. Through insight
                the difference betyween citta and cetasikas will be known. They arise
                together, are closely connected, and pa~n~naa has to be very keen in
                order to know this.
                ------
                Nina.



                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Ken O
                Dear Alex ... KO:  I like this sutta.  An interesting one.  First it shows, it is not sila that develop panna. If it is, Anguilmala would not have a chance
                Message 7 of 10 , Feb 13, 2010
                • 0 Attachment
                  Dear Alex


                  >Angulimala has murdered 999 people. He still became an Arahant. I do not think that any of us has murdered 1 person, let alone 999. If he could do it, so can we.
                  >
                  >In the suttas the path to stream entry (saddhanusarin and dhammanusarin) are not so difficult to attain for motivated Buddhist.
                  >From there one would die as stream-enterer at least. So it is possible for many to end samsara within 7 lives.
                  >
                  >If anyone interested, we can talk about it.


                  KO:  I like this sutta.  An interesting one. 

                  First it shows, it is not sila that develop panna. If it is, Anguilmala would not have a chance because he kill 999 people, so many akusala sila.

                  Secondly, it shows the power of Buddha, only he knows the accumulations of a person and he is able to teach Angulimala

                  Thirdly, it shows that conditions of accumulation of panna.  Anguilmala is able to realised that the recluse is speaking the truth and after some conversation, able to understand the truth spoken by recluse, realise the recluse is Buddha and then immediately stop violence.  This shows the strength of panna that is accumulated

                  Fourthly, before he was of noble birth, Anguilama is full of violence.  When he mean an occassion of a lady with a difficult birth, he was full of compassion towards the lady.  So it shows very clearly, when panna arise, compassion could arise.   

                  fifth - An noble one cannot tell a lie.  It shows the sila is perfected when panna arise.

                  sixth - an arahant still have to face kamma in his last life after that no more kamma.



                  With metta
                  Ken O


                  New Email names for you!
                  Get the Email name you've always wanted on the new @ymail and @rocketmail.
                  Hurry before someone else does!
                  http://mail.promotions.yahoo.com/newdomains/sg/
                Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.