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[dsg] The Buddha's Path, Ch 7, no 5.

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  • Nina van Gorkom
    Dear friends, Mindfulness of breathing is generally believed to be an easy subject of meditation, but this is a misunderstanding; it is one of the most
    Message 1 of 22 , Jan 6, 2010
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      Dear friends,

      Mindfulness of breathing is generally believed to be an easy subject
      of meditation, but this is a misunderstanding; it is one of the most
      intricate subjects. If one tries to concentrate on breath without
      right understanding of this subject there will be clinging instead of
      calm. Breath is a bodily phenomenon which is conditioned by citta. It
      can appear as hardness, softness, heat or pressure. Those who want to
      develop this subject and have accumulated conditions to develop it
      have to be mindful of breath where it touches the tip of the nose or
      the upper-lip. However, breath is very subtle, it is most difficult
      to be mindful of it. The Path of Purification (VIII, 208) states:

      For while other meditation subjects become clearer at each higher
      stage, this one does not: in fact, as he goes on developing it, it
      becomes more subtle for him at each higher stage, and it even comes
      to the point at which it is no longer manifest.

      We read further on (VIII, 211):

      �But this mindfulness of breathing is difficult, difficult to
      develop, a field in which only the minds of Buddhas, �Silent
      Buddhas� , and Buddhas� sons are at home. It is no trivial matter,
      nor can it be cultivated by trivial persons. In proportion as
      continued attention is given to it, it becomes more peaceful and more
      subtle. So strong mindfulness and understanding are necessary here.

      �Buddhas� sons� are the Buddha�s disciples who had accumulated great
      wisdom and who were endowed with excellent qualities. Thus, this
      subject is not suitable for everybody.
      We cling to breath since our life depends on it. Breathing stops when
      our life comes to an end. When this subject is developed in the right
      way, it has to be known when there is clinging to breath or to calm;
      it has to be known when there is akusala citta and when kusala citta.
      Otherwise it is impossible to develop calm with this subject. It is
      difficult to know the characteristic of breath, one may easily take
      for breath what is not breath. Following the movement of the abdomen
      is not mindfulness of breathing. Some people do breathing exercises
      for the sake of relaxation. While one concentrates on one�s
      breathing, one cannot think of one�s worries at the same time and
      then one feels more relaxed. This is not mindfulness of breathing,
      which has as its aim the temporary release from clinging. Mindfulness
      of breathing is extremely difficult and if one develops it in the
      wrong way, there is wrong concentration, there is no development of
      wholesomeness. For the development of this subject one has to lead a
      secluded life and many conditions have to be fulfilled.

      ******
      Nina.

      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • upasaka@aol.com
      Dear Nina - In a message dated 1/6/2010 12:50:51 A.M. Pacific Standard Time, vangorko@xs4all.nl writes: Dear friends, Mindfulness of breathing is generally
      Message 2 of 22 , Jan 6, 2010
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        Dear Nina -

        In a message dated 1/6/2010 12:50:51 A.M. Pacific Standard Time,
        vangorko@... writes:

        Dear friends,

        Mindfulness of breathing is generally believed to be an easy subject
        of meditation, but this is a misunderstanding; it is one of the most
        intricate subjects. If one tries to concentrate on breath without
        right understanding of this subject there will be clinging instead of
        calm.
        -------------------------------------------------------
        While I can't claim right understanding, I can tell you in truth that
        my breathing-centered meditation is easy and calming and without desire,
        clinging, or stress. This is not to say that it is hindrance-free. My primary
        hindrance is sloth & torpor, and I use various means, especially standing
        meditation, to reduce it's impact.
        ------------------------------------------------------

        Breath is a bodily phenomenon which is conditioned by citta. It
        can appear as hardness, softness, heat or pressure.
        ----------------------------------------------------
        Yes, indeed. The subject "breath" is a complex of physical phenomena,
        not a single thing.
        --------------------------------------------------

        Those who want to
        develop this subject and have accumulated conditions to develop it
        have to be mindful of breath where it touches the tip of the nose or
        the upper-lip.
        -----------------------------------------------------
        There is more to examine than that, however. (And neither the upper
        lip nor nose tip is a magical "spot.")The entire body (of sensations) and
        mind as well come to be observed, and SHOULD be observed. The process of
        meditation proceeds by means of mindful guarding of attention, staying present
        and avoiding getting lost in thought, lost in excitement, and lost in sloth
        & torpor. Mindful attention engendering and maintaining calm and clarity is
        what meditation is about.
        ------------------------------------------------------

        However, breath is very subtle, it is most difficult
        to be mindful of it.
        -----------------------------------------------------
        As calm results from the meditation, all bodily processes, including
        breath, slow down and become more subtle. This is an *advantage* of breath
        meditation. In order to maintain clarity as the breath becomes more subtle,
        attention and mindfulness have to intensify, and that is *good*.
        ==========================
        With metta,
        Howard


        Seamless

        /A change in anything is a change in everything/

        (Anonymous)





        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Nina van Gorkom
        Hi Howard, ... N: This is specifically in the case of breath. See Visuddhimagga. ... I just listened to audio , K K Jan. 2007, 01-13, a. Here this subject is
        Message 3 of 22 , Jan 6, 2010
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          Hi Howard,
          Op 6-jan-2010, om 14:24 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven:

          > While I can't claim right understanding, I can tell you in truth that
          > my breathing-centered meditation is easy and calming and without
          > desire,
          > clinging, or stress. This is not to say that it is hindrance-free.
          > My primary
          > hindrance is sloth & torpor, and I use various means, especially
          > standing
          > meditation, to reduce it's impact.
          > ------------------------------------------------------
          > N: Another way to reduce its impact is understanding its
          > characteristic as only a conditioned dhamma, not self.
          -----------
          > Quote N: Breath is a bodily phenomenon which is conditioned by
          > citta. It
          > can appear as hardness, softness, heat or pressure.
          > ----------------------------------------------------
          > H: Yes, indeed. The subject "breath" is a complex of physical
          > phenomena,
          > not a single thing.
          > --------------------------------------------------
          > N: It is tangible object, not a whole of impressions. It is just
          > like tangible object appearing when touching a thing. Not a whole,
          > but a single dhamma. The whole day there is touching and it is most
          > of the time followed by attachment which may be very subtle. We are
          > so used to experiencing tangible object, like hardness or softness,
          > we take it for granted. But we can learn that we like touching and
          > tangible object. There is like, even a little. We do not want to
          > be without it.
          -----------
          > Quote N: Those who want to
          > develop this subject and have accumulated conditions to develop it
          > have to be mindful of breath where it touches the tip of the nose or
          > the upper-lip.
          > -----------------------------------------------------
          > H: There is more to examine than that, however. (And neither the upper
          > lip nor nose tip is a magical "spot.")
          -----
          N: This is specifically in the case of breath. See Visuddhimagga.
          --------
          > H: The entire body (of sensations) and
          > mind as well come to be observed, and SHOULD be observed. The
          > process of
          > meditation proceeds by means of mindful guarding of attention,
          > staying present
          > and avoiding getting lost in thought, lost in excitement, and lost
          > in sloth
          > & torpor. Mindful attention engendering and maintaining calm and
          > clarity is
          > what meditation is about.
          > ------------------------------------------------------
          > N: It depends for what purpose one develops it. When it is the calm
          > of jhaana the hindrances have to be suppressed. When it is insight,
          > then no avoidance but getting know these hindrances. In vipassanaa
          > all realities have to be known as non-self. Mere conditioned
          > dhammas. Not just by repeating words, but by developing
          > understanding of the characteristics of dhammas when they appear.
          --------
          I just listened to audio , K K Jan. 2007, 01-13, a. Here this subject
          is discussed. If you feel inclined to it, you could listen.
          > Nina.


          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Ken O
          Dear Howard ... KO:  At the moment when panna arise, there is no hindrances, no excitement, not forgetful, not distracted.  ... KO:  Mindfulness always
          Message 4 of 22 , Jan 7, 2010
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            Dear Howard


            >------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- -----
            >There is more to examine than that, however. (And neither the upper
            >lip nor nose tip is a magical "spot.")The entire body (of sensations) and
            >mind as well come to be observed, and SHOULD be observed. The process of
            >meditation proceeds by means of mindful guarding of attention, staying present
            >and avoiding getting lost in thought, lost in excitement, and lost in sloth
            >& torpor. Mindful attention engendering and maintaining calm and clarity is
            >what meditation is about.
            >------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- ------

            KO:  At the moment when panna arise, there is no hindrances, no excitement, not forgetful, not distracted. 

            >
            >However, breath is very subtle, it is most difficult
            >to be mindful of it.
            >------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- -----
            >As calm results from the meditation, all bodily processes, including
            >breath, slow down and become more subtle. This is an *advantage* of breath
            >meditation. In order to maintain clarity as the breath becomes more subtle,
            >attention and mindfulness have to intensify, and that is *good*.
            >============ ========= =====

            KO:  Mindfulness always arise with panna, clarify always arise with panna and calm always arise with panna.  And when panna becomes keener, it is able to understand the sublte characteristic of dhamma.   


            Cheers
            Ken O


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          • upasaka@aol.com
            Hi, Ken - In a message dated 1/7/2010 4:46:44 A.M. Pacific Standard Time, ashkenn2k@yahoo.co.uk writes: Dear Howard ... present ... sloth ... is ... KO: At
            Message 5 of 22 , Jan 7, 2010
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              Hi, Ken -

              In a message dated 1/7/2010 4:46:44 A.M. Pacific Standard Time,
              ashkenn2k@... writes:

              Dear Howard


              >------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- -----
              >There is more to examine than that, however. (And neither the upper
              >lip nor nose tip is a magical "spot.")The entire body (of sensations) and
              >mind as well come to be observed, and SHOULD be observed. The process of
              >meditation proceeds by means of mindful guarding of attention, staying
              present
              >and avoiding getting lost in thought, lost in excitement, and lost in
              sloth
              >& torpor. Mindful attention engendering and maintaining calm and clarity
              is
              >what meditation is about.
              >------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- ------

              KO: At the moment when panna arise, there is no hindrances, no
              excitement, not forgetful, not distracted.
              -----------------------------------------------------
              That's nice, but so what? And when one becomes an arahant nothing
              further is required. And when one becomes a stream entrant that is a major
              beginning. and when one remains a worldling, that's that.
              --------------------------------------------------



              >
              >However, breath is very subtle, it is most difficult
              >to be mindful of it.
              >------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- -----
              >As calm results from the meditation, all bodily processes, including
              >breath, slow down and become more subtle. This is an *advantage* of
              breath
              >meditation. In order to maintain clarity as the breath becomes more
              subtle,
              >attention and mindfulness have to intensify, and that is *good*.
              >============ ========= =====

              KO: Mindfulness always arise with panna, clarify always arise with panna
              and calm always arise with panna. And when panna becomes keener, it is
              able to understand the sublte characteristic of dhamma.
              ---------------------------------------------------------
              Mindfulness always arises with pa~n~na? Are you certain you don't mean
              the converse? In any case, neither arises randomly.
              ---------------------------------------------------------




              Cheers
              Ken O

              =============================
              With metta,
              Howard


              Seamless

              /A change in anything is a change in everything/

              (Anonymous)






              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • scottduncan2
              Dear Howard, Regarding: H: While I can t claim right understanding, I can tell you in truth that my breathing-centered meditation is easy and calming and
              Message 6 of 22 , Jan 7, 2010
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                Dear Howard,

                Regarding:

                H: "While I can't claim right understanding, I can tell you in truth that my breathing-centered meditation is easy and calming and without desire, clinging, or stress. This is not to say that it is hindrance-free. My primary hindrance is sloth & torpor, and I use various means, especially standing meditation, to reduce it's impact..."

                Scott: How are any of these dhammaa known to be either present or absent without pa~n~naa? This is the familiar sort of meditator account that leaves me with little doubt that meditators have little real sense of what they are actually claiming.

                In the above it is claimed that despite a lack of right understanding the meditator knows that his meditation is 'without desire, clinging, or stress' (whatever 'stress' might refer to). The meditator also claims to know what 'sloth and torpor' is without right understanding.

                In the end, this sounds like a very relaxing pastime ('easy and calming') and more akin to yoga than anything else. I again fail to see what is to be recommended - other than the relaxation of course, which we could all enjoy in one way or another.

                Sincerely,

                Scott.
              • truth_aerator
                Dear Scott, Do you meditate? If not, then how can you instruct others on how to meditate? It is like a person who was never in wilderness teaching how to
                Message 7 of 22 , Jan 7, 2010
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                  Dear Scott,

                  Do you meditate? If not, then how can you instruct others on how to meditate? It is like a person who was never in wilderness teaching how to survive in wilderness and 'teaching' the people who were there on how to actually do it.


                  With metta,

                  Alex


                  --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "scottduncan2" <scduncan@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Dear Howard,
                  >
                  > Regarding:
                  >
                  > H: "While I can't claim right understanding, I can tell you in truth that my breathing-centered meditation is easy and calming and without desire, clinging, or stress. This is not to say that it is hindrance-free. My primary hindrance is sloth & torpor, and I use various means, especially standing meditation, to reduce it's impact..."
                  >
                  > Scott: How are any of these dhammaa known to be either present or absent without pa~n~naa? This is the familiar sort of meditator account that leaves me with little doubt that meditators have little real sense of what they are actually claiming.
                  >
                  > In the above it is claimed that despite a lack of right understanding the meditator knows that his meditation is 'without desire, clinging, or stress' (whatever 'stress' might refer to). The meditator also claims to know what 'sloth and torpor' is without right understanding.
                  >
                  > In the end, this sounds like a very relaxing pastime ('easy and calming') and more akin to yoga than anything else. I again fail to see what is to be recommended - other than the relaxation of course, which we could all enjoy in one way or another.
                  >
                  > Sincerely,
                  >
                  > Scott.
                  >
                • scottduncan2
                  Dear Alex, Regarding: A: Do you meditate? If not, then how can you instruct others on how to meditate? It is like a person who was never in wilderness
                  Message 8 of 22 , Jan 7, 2010
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                    Dear Alex,

                    Regarding:

                    A: "Do you meditate? If not, then how can you instruct others on how to meditate? It is like a person who was never in wilderness teaching how to survive in wilderness and 'teaching' the people who were there on how to actually do it."

                    Scott: With respect, it is my considered opinion that the 'meditators' on the list who preach and defend and advocate 'meditation' a) don't understand it, b) are only doing yoga and, c) think to tell others that it is really important to do yoga as well. One normally doesn't take 'instruction' from those who don't know anything about a given subject.

                    I've not sought to instruct anyone that I'm aware of. I merely give an opinion about the apparent lack of understanding demonstrated by 'meditators' on the list.

                    Please direct any response to others since I don't wish to enter a discussion about this with you.

                    Sincerely,

                    Scott.
                  • charlest
                    Good friend Scott, et al ... a) don t understand it, From Chuck: In my minority experience, mostly agree... b) are only doing yoga and, From Chuck: In my
                    Message 9 of 22 , Jan 7, 2010
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                      Good friend Scott, et al

                      --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "scottduncan2" <scduncan@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > Dear Alex,
                      >
                      > ... snip
                      >
                      > Scott: With respect, it is my considered opinion that the 'meditators' on the list who preach and defend and advocate 'meditation'

                      a) don't understand it,

                      From Chuck: In my minority experience, mostly agree...

                      b) are only doing yoga and,

                      From Chuck: In my minority experience, mostly agree...

                      c) think to tell others that it is really important to do yoga as well.

                      From Chuck: In my minority experience, many Thai monks teach the same. I do not know as many monks from Burma or Sri Lanka to make any comment!



                      One normally doesn't take 'instruction' from those who don't know anything about a given subject.

                      From Chuck: Unfortunately, too, too many of us do not know enough to discern the difference!!!

                      >
                      > ... snip
                      >
                      > Please direct any response to others since I don't wish to enter a discussion about this with you.
                      >
                      > Sincerely,
                      >
                      > Scott.
                      >

                      From Chuck: Yes, good friend Scott, unfortunately, too, too many on this list do not peruse what is writtened!!!

                      Too, too many quickly respond to what they erroneously perceive what was written without perusing and pondering before providing an excellent considered response!!!

                      peace to all...

                      metta (maitri),

                      Chuck

                      Management: If you, in your "Absolute Wisdom", deem this message as dastardly; please, please delete!!!
                    • charlest
                      Good friend Alex, et al ... C: What part of the following quote do you not understand? By Scott: I ve not sought to instruct anyone that I m aware of. I
                      Message 10 of 22 , Jan 7, 2010
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                        Good friend Alex, et al

                        --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "truth_aerator" <truth_aerator@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > Dear Scott,
                        >
                        >
                        > So how do you meditate? How should proper meditation (bhavana) be done? How does one develop samma-sati and samma-samadhi?
                        >
                        >
                        > Best wishes,
                        >
                        > Alex
                        >



                        C: What part of the following quote do you not understand?

                        By Scott:

                        "I've not sought to instruct anyone that I'm aware of. I merely give an opinion about the apparent lack of understanding demonstrated by 'meditators' on the list.

                        Please direct any response to others since I don't wish to enter a discussion about this with you.

                        Sincerely,

                        Scott."
                        ..................................


                        Good friend Alex,

                        Why the continued harassment to our good friend Scott?

                        He clearly wrote a clear answer!!!

                        Two words to you: Buzz off!!!

                        as ever, el diablo (from another parallel universe)

                        metta (maitri),

                        Chuck

                        Management: If you find this message dastardly, please, please delete!!!
                      • truth_aerator
                        Hello Charles, all, I am sorry if my reply has offended anyone. The thing is that this is not the first time someone has said that you are doing it all
                        Message 11 of 22 , Jan 7, 2010
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                          Hello Charles, all,

                          I am sorry if my reply has offended anyone. The thing is that this is not the first time someone has said that "you are doing it all wrong."

                          It is very nice when someone points out my fault. Great. I'd like to
                          hear a convincing justification of a more correct development (bhavana). I would love to increase knowledge, wisdom and understanding. As I've said before, I want to learn, I don't wont to argue for argument's sake.

                          So when I try to ask something along the lines of "Ok. So how to do it right?" I get some sort of evasive and cynical answers or refusal to answer. This doesn't seem nice at all. If you are going to say "you are wrong", then have the courtesy to back it up.


                          I'd love to get correct pointers on bhavana, from the suttas. Not some "you can't do it, nothing can be done" sort of answers. How do you think such phrases condition the subconsciousness?

                          With best wishes,

                          Alex



                          --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "charlest" <dhammasaro@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > Good friend Alex, et al
                          >
                          > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "truth_aerator" <truth_aerator@> wrote:
                          > >
                          > > Dear Scott,
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > So how do you meditate? How should proper meditation (bhavana) be done? How does one develop samma-sati and samma-samadhi?
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > Best wishes,
                          > >
                          > > Alex
                          > >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > C: What part of the following quote do you not understand?
                          >
                          > By Scott:
                          >
                          > "I've not sought to instruct anyone that I'm aware of. I merely give an opinion about the apparent lack of understanding demonstrated by 'meditators' on the list.
                          >
                          > Please direct any response to others since I don't wish to enter a discussion about this with you.
                          >
                          > Sincerely,
                          >
                          > Scott."
                          > ..................................
                          >
                          >
                          > Good friend Alex,
                          >
                          > Why the continued harassment to our good friend Scott?
                          >
                          > He clearly wrote a clear answer!!!
                          >
                          > Two words to you: Buzz off!!!
                          >
                          > as ever, el diablo (from another parallel universe)
                          >
                          > metta (maitri),
                          >
                          > Chuck
                          >
                          > Management: If you find this message dastardly, please, please delete!!!
                          >
                        • scottduncan2
                          Dear Chuck, Regarding: C: In my minority experience, mostly agree...In my minority experience, mostly agree...In my minority experience, many Thai monks teach
                          Message 12 of 22 , Jan 7, 2010
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                            Dear Chuck,

                            Regarding:

                            C: "In my minority experience, mostly agree...In my minority experience, mostly agree...In my minority experience, many Thai monks teach the same. I do not know as many monks from Burma or Sri Lanka to make any comment!...Unfortunately, too, too many of us do not know enough to discern the difference!!!"

                            Scott: Thank you for your reply.

                            Sincerely,

                            Scott.
                          • Ken O
                            Dear Howard ... KO:  it is not so what, it is what we are doing that is the so what.  It takes panna to be enlighted and not mindfulness.  ... KO:  Yes
                            Message 13 of 22 , Jan 7, 2010
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                              Dear Howard

                              >>----------- - --------- --------- --------- --------- ------
                              >
                              >KO: At the moment when panna arise, there is no hindrances, no
                              >excitement, not forgetful, not distracted.
                              >------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- -----
                              >That's nice, but so what? And when one becomes an arahant nothing
                              >further is required. And when one becomes a stream entrant that is a major
                              >beginning. and when one remains a worldling, that's that.
                              >------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --

                              KO:  it is not so what, it is what we are doing that is the so what.  It takes panna to be enlighted and not mindfulness. 


                              >>=========== = ========= =====
                              >
                              >KO: Mindfulness always arise with panna, clarify always arise with panna
                              >and calm always arise with panna. And when panna becomes keener, it is
                              >able to understand the sublte characteristic of dhamma.
                              >------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- ---------
                              >Mindfulness always arises with pa~n~na? Are you certain you don't mean
                              >the converse? In any case, neither arises randomly.
                              >------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- ---------

                              KO:  Yes mindfulness always arises with panna but panna does not always arise with mindfulness.    Mindfulness always arises with kusala cittas (like during dana or metta) with or without panna.   


                              Cheers
                              Ken O


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                            • charlest
                              Good friend Alex, ... C: Sigh... no comment. ... peace man... metta (maitri), Chuck
                              Message 14 of 22 , Jan 7, 2010
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                                Good friend Alex,

                                --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "truth_aerator" <truth_aerator@...> wrote:
                                >
                                > Hello Charles, all,
                                >
                                > I am sorry if my reply has offended anyone. The thing is that this is not the first time someone has said that "you are doing it all wrong."
                                >
                                > It is very nice when someone points out my fault. Great. I'd like to
                                > hear a convincing justification of a more correct development (bhavana). I would love to increase knowledge, wisdom and understanding. As I've said before, I want to learn, I don't wont to argue for argument's sake.
                                >
                                > So when I try to ask something along the lines of "Ok. So how to do it right?" I get some sort of evasive and cynical answers or refusal to answer. This doesn't seem nice at all. If you are going to say "you are wrong", then have the courtesy to back it up.
                                >
                                >
                                > I'd love to get correct pointers on bhavana, from the suttas. Not some "you can't do it, nothing can be done" sort of answers. How do you think such phrases condition the subconsciousness?
                                >
                                > With best wishes,
                                >
                                > Alex
                                >
                                >




                                C: Sigh... no comment.



                                > ... snip

                                peace man...

                                metta (maitri),

                                Chuck
                              • charlest
                                Good friends Howard and Scott, ... C: If I may interject... 1. The late, Thai ajahn Buddhadassa taught there are two kinds of language - Everyday mundane
                                Message 15 of 22 , Jan 7, 2010
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                                  Good friends Howard and Scott,

                                  --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "scottduncan2" <scduncan@...> wrote:
                                  >
                                  > Dear Howard,
                                  >
                                  > Regarding:
                                  >
                                  > H: "While I can't claim right understanding, I can tell you in truth that my breathing-centered meditation is easy and calming and without desire, clinging, or stress. This is not to say that it is hindrance-free. My primary hindrance is sloth & torpor, and I use various means, especially standing meditation, to reduce it's impact..."
                                  >
                                  > Scott: How are any of these dhammaa known to be either present or absent without pa~n~naa? This is the familiar sort of meditator account that leaves me with little doubt that meditators have little real sense of what they are actually claiming.
                                  >
                                  > In the above it is claimed that despite a lack of right understanding the meditator knows that his meditation is 'without desire, clinging, or stress' (whatever 'stress' might refer to). The meditator also claims to know what 'sloth and torpor' is without right understanding.
                                  >
                                  > In the end, this sounds like a very relaxing pastime ('easy and calming') and more akin to yoga than anything else. I again fail to see what is to be recommended - other than the relaxation of course, which we could all enjoy in one way or another.
                                  >
                                  > Sincerely,
                                  >
                                  > Scott.
                                  >


                                  C: If I may interject...

                                  1. The late, Thai ajahn Buddhadassa taught there are two kinds of language - Everyday mundane language and Dhamma language.

                                  As a mere puthujjana, I write in the everyday language.

                                  However, most active participants here are ariya-puggala and, hence, write in the Dhamma language.

                                  2. As I was taught, it matters not whether ones practice is completely correct; it is the intention and consistent practice which is important. In time, through persistence, complete correct practice will evolve.

                                  3. One can recite the Tipitaka; but, with no practice... where is one?

                                  peace...

                                  metta (maitri),

                                  Chuck


                                  Management: If you find this message distasteful; please, please delete.
                                • scottduncan2
                                  Dear Charles, Regarding: C: ...However, most active participants here are ariya-puggala and, hence, write in the Dhamma language...Management: If you find
                                  Message 16 of 22 , Jan 8, 2010
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                                    Dear Charles,

                                    Regarding:

                                    C: "...However, most active participants here are ariya-puggala and, hence, write in the Dhamma language...Management: If you find this message distasteful; please, please delete."

                                    Scott: While I Totally Dig the Crushing Irony in the above - so cool the way you suggest that contributors are like some of those fancy stream-enterers or once-returners or whatever but like really mean to suggest thereby and through such an amazingly clever literary juxtaposition that contributors here are actually a bunch of annoying, know-it-all wankers - I don't think anyone's going to delete your messages.

                                    And speaking of irony, I suppose - you know, thinking more about it and stuff - that you could always try harder to be like even more controversial.

                                    But these management guys here totally drive me crazy - they never seem to get rid of people who simply just have axes to grind or who don't know how to get on well in cyber-space or are unable to take a bit of gentle correction. I mean, I'm still here and I bet this post doesn't get deleted.

                                    Nah, carry on, man. You'll be here for a long time...

                                    ;-)

                                    Sincerely,

                                    Scott.
                                  • upasaka@aol.com
                                    Hi, Ken - In a message dated 1/7/2010 4:48:37 P.M. Pacific Standard Time, ... KO: Yes mindfulness always arises with panna but panna does not always arise
                                    Message 17 of 22 , Jan 8, 2010
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                                      Hi, Ken -

                                      In a message dated 1/7/2010 4:48:37 P.M. Pacific Standard Time,
                                      ashkenn2k@... writes:

                                      >------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- ---------
                                      >Mindfulness always arises with pa~n~na? Are you certain you don't mean
                                      >the converse? In any case, neither arises randomly.
                                      >------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- ---------

                                      KO: Yes mindfulness always arises with panna but panna does not always
                                      arise with mindfulness. Mindfulness always arises with kusala cittas (like
                                      during dana or metta) with or without panna.
                                      ================================
                                      There was an ambiguity to the language, and I misread you. (To
                                      clarify: "mindfulness always arises with panna" could mean that mindfulness
                                      always brings wisdom along with it, which is what thought you meant, whereas
                                      you actually meant the opposite!
                                      I think we actually agree on this. Whenever there is wisdom, there
                                      must also be mindfulness also in effect. However there can be mindfulness in
                                      effect with there not yet being wisdom. If that is what you mean, then we
                                      agree.

                                      With metta,
                                      Howard


                                      Seamless

                                      /A change in anything is a change in everything/

                                      (Anonymous)


                                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                    • charlest
                                      Good friend Scott, ... C: I suspect you are correct. I think I agree with you. Unfortunately, I get lost in your maze of compound-complex sentences... Sorry
                                      Message 18 of 22 , Jan 8, 2010
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                                        Good friend Scott,

                                        --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "scottduncan2" <scduncan@...> wrote:
                                        >
                                        > Dear Charles,
                                        >
                                        > Regarding:
                                        >
                                        > C: "...However, most active participants here are ariya-puggala and, hence, write in the Dhamma language...Management: If you find this message distasteful; please, please delete."
                                        >
                                        > Scott: While I Totally Dig the Crushing Irony in the above - so cool the way you suggest that contributors are like some of those fancy stream-enterers or once-returners or whatever but like really mean to suggest thereby and through such an amazingly clever literary juxtaposition that contributors here are actually a bunch of annoying, know-it-all wankers - I don't think anyone's going to delete your messages.
                                        >
                                        > And speaking of irony, I suppose - you know, thinking more about it and stuff - that you could always try harder to be like even more controversial.
                                        >
                                        > But these management guys here totally drive me crazy - they never seem to get rid of people who simply just have axes to grind or who don't know how to get on well in cyber-space or are unable to take a bit of gentle correction. I mean, I'm still here and I bet this post doesn't get deleted.
                                        >
                                        > Nah, carry on, man. You'll be here for a long time...
                                        >
                                        > ;-)
                                        >
                                        > Sincerely,
                                        >
                                        > Scott.
                                        >




                                        C: I suspect you are correct.

                                        I think I agree with you. Unfortunately, I get lost in your maze of compound-complex sentences...

                                        Sorry good friend Scott...

                                        That is why I try to write in only simple sentences.




                                        But, alas...

                                        Too, too many so-called experts are too, too busy multi-tasking rather than being in the moment... hence, they so often mis-understand the question.



                                        They, while multi-tasking, not being-in-the-moment, answer the non-question... and, the next expert multi-tasking, not being-in-the-moment, answers the non-question, et cetera...



                                        peace...

                                        metta (maitri),

                                        Chuck


                                        PS: Wuz dis ah gude response?
                                      • scottduncan2
                                        Dear Charles, Regarding: C: ...PS: Wuz dis ah gude response? Scott: It most certainly was not - unless it winds up being deleted. ;-) Sincerely, Scott.
                                        Message 19 of 22 , Jan 8, 2010
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                                          Dear Charles,

                                          Regarding:

                                          C: "...PS: Wuz dis ah gude response?"

                                          Scott: It most certainly was not - unless it winds up being deleted.

                                          ;-)

                                          Sincerely,

                                          Scott.
                                        • charlest
                                          Good friend Scott, ... Oh well... kant pease all, kan vun...
                                          Message 20 of 22 , Jan 8, 2010
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                                            Good friend Scott,

                                            --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "scottduncan2" <scduncan@...> wrote:
                                            >
                                            > Dear Charles,
                                            >
                                            > Regarding:
                                            >
                                            > C: "...PS: Wuz dis ah gude response?"
                                            >
                                            > Scott: It most certainly was not - unless it winds up being deleted.
                                            >
                                            > ;-)
                                            >
                                            > Sincerely,
                                            >
                                            > Scott.
                                            >

                                            Oh well... kant pease all, kan vun...
                                          • jonoabb
                                            Hi Chuck (104273) ... If we are to discuss the teachings of the Buddha, it s necessary to understand the terms he used. For the most part, these terms are
                                            Message 21 of 22 , Jan 9, 2010
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                                              Hi Chuck

                                              (104273)
                                              > 1. The late, Thai ajahn Buddhadassa taught there are two kinds of language - Everyday mundane language and Dhamma language.
                                              >
                                              > As a mere puthujjana, I write in the everyday language.
                                              >
                                              > However, most active participants here are ariya-puggala and, hence, write in the Dhamma language.
                                              > ===============

                                              If we are to discuss the teachings of the Buddha, it's necessary to understand the terms he used. For the most part, these terms are from everyday language, but they carry a different meaning. So we have to take account of that when communicating.

                                              Then again, the way things are in truth and reality, as spoken of by the Buddha, is quite different from the way things are generally perceived. This requires a certain degree of care in using ordinary language.

                                              So I think the use of 'Dhamma language' is unavoidable, and in fact desirable, if we are to communicate meaningfully.

                                              For example, your use of the terms "puthujjana" and "ariya-puggala" (and, for that matter, "Dhamma") in your comments above … ;-))

                                              > ===============
                                              > 2. As I was taught, it matters not whether ones practice is completely correct; it is the intention and consistent practice which is important. In time, through persistence, complete correct practice will evolve.
                                              > ===============

                                              The proposition that:
                                              "it matters not whether ones practice is completely correct; it is the intention and consistent practice which is important. In time, through persistence, complete correct practice will evolve"
                                              is an interesting one that has been expressed here before, but without any support from the texts being given. I'd be interested to know what authority you've been given for this.

                                              > ===============
                                              > 3. One can recite the Tipitaka; but, with no practice... where is one?
                                              > ===============

                                              I think you'll find no disagreement from anyone here on this point. Recitation of the Tipitaka is not one of the conditions for the development of the path. On the other hand, to my understanding, an intellectual understanding of much of what is in the texts in a prerequisite for the development of satipatthana.

                                              Jon
                                            • scottduncan2
                                              Dear Chuck (and Jon), Regarding: C: ...However, most active participants here are ariya-puggala and, hence, write in the Dhamma language... J: ...So I think
                                              Message 22 of 22 , Jan 10, 2010
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                                                Dear Chuck (and Jon),

                                                Regarding:

                                                C: "...However, most active participants here are ariya-puggala and, hence, write in the Dhamma language..."

                                                J: "...So I think the use of 'Dhamma language' is unavoidable, and in fact desirable, if we are to communicate meaningfully. For example, your use of the terms 'puthujjana' and 'ariya-puggala' (and, for that matter, 'Dhamma') in your comments above ;-))..."

                                                C: "No Comment!!!"

                                                Mods: "...We appreciate your many contributions to the list of late, but would ask that you keep things friendly and avoid personal remarks..."

                                                Scott: Chuck, I think you are Over-Reacting to the above.

                                                It now appears as if you think that no one ought to dare to suggest that you amend your Online Persona, when I'm sure that you couldn't possibly be thinking this way. It now appears as if, simply because you were Moderated by a Moderator, you will never make another point on the list again except to Continually Bring Up the Moderating Event, when I'm sure that you couldn't possibly be thinking this way. Is there any way you can just carry on without having to Repeatedly-Highlight-The-Audacity-Of-The-Moderators-For-Having-Dared-To-Suggest-How-They'd-Prefer-You-Interact-On-The-Forum-That-They-Moderate?

                                                I thought Jon made a reasonable attempt at offering you some cogent points to discuss. A very good way to save face would be to simply discuss with Jon in an equally cogent fashion...

                                                Sincerely,

                                                Scott.
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