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Re: [dsg] how much is enough for us?

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  • Nina van Gorkom
    Dear Alex, ... N: Kh Sujin always stresses: it is never enough. And so it is. So much ignorance accumulated for aeons. But with each moment of understanding, a
    Message 1 of 18 , Dec 1, 2009
      Dear Alex,
      Op 1-dec-2009, om 16:07 heeft truth_aerator het volgende geschreven:

      > I've often stressed the importance of right view for meditation
      > (and for the path in general).
      >
      > The only thing is "what exactly and how long exactly is teaching in
      > detail"?
      >
      > How does one know that one has enough right view to develop other
      > important factors?
      -------
      N: Kh Sujin always stresses: it is never enough. And so it is. So
      much ignorance accumulated for aeons. But with each moment of
      understanding, a very tiny bit wears away. We cannot measure it.
      We have to remember that right view always concerns the reality
      appearing at this moment. Only that can be directly known. It has a
      characteristic that can be 'studied' with mindfulness.
      Nina.



      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • truth_aerator
      ... Dear Nina, KenO, all Intention can originate bodily action (bodily intimation). Furthermore Kammic action which is nama can condition future body, which is
      Message 2 of 18 , Dec 1, 2009
        --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom <vangorko@...> wrote:
        >
        > Dear Lukas and Alex,
        > Op 1-dec-2009, om 14:45 heeft Lukas het volgende geschreven:
        >
        > > Kammassakata-sammaditthi (right view that beings are the owners of
        > > their own kamma).
        > ---------
        > N: Only at the first stage of tender insight there is true
        > understanding of kamma and vipaaka. Before that it is not clear what
        > naama is. Kamma and vipaaka are naama, naama that is cause and naama
        > that is result.
        >
        > Nina.


        Dear Nina, KenO, all

        Intention can originate bodily action (bodily intimation). Furthermore Kammic action which is nama can condition future body, which is rupa.

        Also a skinny person may choose to become a wrestler to beat up his high school bullies. He eats heavily, workouts out, takes steroids and is 100 pounds bigger than before. This is another example how intention (mental reality) can (indirectly) condition material reality.




        "7. "Here, student, some woman or man is one who harms beings with his hands or with clods or with sticks or with knives. Due to having performed and completed such kammas, on the dissolution of the body, after death, he reappears in a state of deprivation... If instead he comes to the human state, he is sickly wherever he is reborn. This is the way that leads to sickness, that is to say, to be one who harms beings with one's hands or with clods or with sticks or with knives."

        9. "Here, student, some woman or man is angry, much given to rage; even when little is said, he is furious, angry, ill-disposed, resentful, he shows ill-temper, hate and surliness. Due to having performed and completed such kammas, on the dissolution of the body, after death, he reappears in a state of deprivation... If instead he comes to the human state, he is ugly wherever he is reborn. This is the way that leads to ugliness, that is to say, to be furious, angry, ill-disposed, resentful, and to show ill-temper, hate and surliness.
        http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.135.nymo.html





        With metta,

        Alex
      • Nina van Gorkom
        Dear Alex, ... N: Sure, kamma also produces ruupa. But Kamma is actually intention or volition which is naama and we know so little of naama. We do not know it
        Message 3 of 18 , Dec 1, 2009
          Dear Alex,
          Op 1-dec-2009, om 20:15 heeft truth_aerator het volgende geschreven:

          > Intention can originate bodily action (bodily intimation).
          > Furthermore Kammic action which is nama can condition future body,
          > which is rupa.
          ------
          N: Sure, kamma also produces ruupa. But Kamma is actually intention
          or volition which is naama and we know so little of naama. We do not
          know it yet as a mere dhamma, we take is for my intention, my action.
          Vipaaka is the mental result of kamma, like seeing now, But do we
          know what seeing is? It is a mere dhamma, not my seeing. Seeing is
          not thinking about what is seen or defining it.
          Nina.



          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • truth_aerator
          ... Dear Nina, KenO, Lukas, all It is right that nama is hard to discern. It is harder to discern than rupa. This is why Buddha has often advised us to start
          Message 4 of 18 , Dec 1, 2009
            --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom <vangorko@...> wrote:
            >
            > Dear Alex,
            > Op 1-dec-2009, om 20:15 heeft truth_aerator het volgende geschreven:
            >
            > > Intention can originate bodily action (bodily intimation).
            > > Furthermore Kammic action which is nama can condition future body,
            > > which is rupa.
            > ------
            > N: Sure, kamma also produces ruupa. But Kamma is actually intention
            > or volition which is naama and we know so little of naama. We do >not
            > know it yet as a mere dhamma, we take is for my intention, my >action. Vipaaka is the mental result of kamma, like seeing now, But >do we
            > know what seeing is? It is a mere dhamma, not my seeing. Seeing is
            > not thinking about what is seen or defining it.
            > Nina.


            Dear Nina, KenO, Lukas, all




            It is right that nama is hard to discern. It is harder to discern than rupa. This is why Buddha has often advised us to start with rupa and after it (rupa) becomes clear, then proceed till nama.

            The famous satipatthana sutta starts with kayagatasati and THEN proceeds to nama (vedana, citta satipatthana).



            In VsM it says that one whose vehicle is serenity should define mentality first. Whose vehicle is bare insight, starts with the body.

            VsM XVIII, 3

            [DEFINING OF MENTALITY-MATERIALITY]
            [(1) DEFINITION BASED ON THE FOUR PRIMARIES]
            [(a) Starting with Mentality]
            "One who wants to accomplish this, if, firstly, his vehicle is serenity, should emerge from any fine-material or immaterial jhana, except the base consisting of neither perception nor non-perception,3 and he should discern, according to characteristic, function, etc., the jhana factors consisting of applied thought, etc., and the states associated with them, [that is, feeling, perception, and so on]. When he has done so, all that should be defined as 'mentality' (nama) in the sense of bending (namana) because of its bending on to the object.


            [(b) Starting with Materiality]
            5. But one whose vehicle is pure insight, or that same aforesaid one
            whose vehicle is serenity, discerns the four elements in brief or in detail in one of the various ways given in the chapter on the definition of the four elements (Ch. XI, §27ff.). Then when the elements have become clear in their correct essential characteristics, firstly, in the case of head hair originated by kamma there become plain ten instances of materiality (rilpdni) with the body decad thus: the four elements, colour, odour, flavour, nutritive essence, and life, and body sensitivity.

            8. When he has discerned materiality thus, the immaterial states become plain to him in accordance with the sense doors, that is to say, the eighty-one kinds of mundane consciousness...


            [IF THE IMMATERIAL FAILS TO BECOME EVIDENT]
            15. [591] But if he has discerned materiality in one of these ways, and while he is trying to discern the immaterial it does not become evident to him owing to its subtlety, then he should not give up but should again and again comprehend, give attention to, discern, and define materiality only. For in proportion as materiality becomes quite definite, disentangled and quite clear to him, so the immaterial states that have that [materiality] as their object become plain of themselves too.

            17. For in proportion as materiality becomes quite definite, disentangled and quite clear to him, so the defilements that are opposing him subside, his consciousness becomes clear like the water above the [precipitated] mud, and the immaterial states that have that [materiality] as their object become plain of themselves too."
            ============



            So if one does bare-insight, one needs to start with matter and then proceed to nama.

            If one does Jhana as part of "serenity path", than one can start with nama.



            With metta,

            Alex
          • Lukas
            Dear Alex I wanna give my remarks. How I feel this. ... L: In Nina s ruupas you have very detailed explanation of ruupa. I gave my disappreciation once, that
            Message 5 of 18 , Dec 2, 2009
              Dear Alex
              I wanna give my remarks. How I feel this.

              >I've often stressed the importance of right view for meditation (and for >the path in general).
              >
              >The only thing is "what exactly and how long exactly is teaching in detail"?

              L: In Nina's ruupas you have very detailed explanation of ruupa. I gave my disappreciation once, that maybe it can be to philospophical sometimes. And Nina said it's not philosophical, it's perfect. And our accumulations can lead us astray.
              I agree fully with that. I considered all commentaries to be perfect. But I have to admit that some very detailed explanations makes me to ponder over it as a philosohy. But of course it's not the Dhamma that is spoiled, This is my accumulation. But this is OK, I just leave it for now. Maybe later on I will also appreciate this too.

              >How does one know that one has enough right view to develop other >important factors?

              L: I think that is only sacca ~nana that works on its own. And develop the Path and meditates. For example, we hear Dhamma on not doing bad deeds, or that bad kamma leads to painful result. There can be, after hearing this a siila, that refrains from bad deeds. No Self in such moments. And I think this is very helpful to be very strict to the Truth from the very beginning. Bhante Dhammadhara was asked once on sati: "But can't awareness be directed without introducing a self?"
              And Bhante said this: "By whom, by what? Why bother? If it arises, isn't that good enough? Why do we have to have any idea of somebody or something taking it and putting it there?"

              In the times of Buddha, His disciples had accumulations to understand Dhamma after short explanation. They can hear in brief on siila and start to enjoy ~nanas. The example is from Sigala Sutta:
              After Buddha's explanation, Sigala enjoyed ~nanas. He gave his own words of appreciation:

              "Excellent, Lord, excellent! It is as if, Lord, a man were to set upright that which was overturned, or were to reveal that which was hidden, or were to point out the way to one who had gone astray, or were to hold a lamp amidst the darkness, so that those who have eyes may see. Even so, has the doctrine been explained in various ways by the Exalted One.

              "I take refuge, Lord, in the Buddha, the Dhamma, and the Sangha. May the Exalted One receive me as a lay follower; as one who has taken refuge from this very day to life's end."

              Even in Suttas, Blessed One explained in short and then if it wasn't clear he made some detailed explanations.
              He was so commpasionate that he leave us Abhidhamma, that is very detailed explanation, so that we could understand. Then Theras out of compassion to us made their own comments and explained the Dhamma in more detailed way.

              You wrote of the kinds of samma-ditthi and I wanna give my comments on this:
              1.Kammassakata- sammaditthi (right view that beings are the owners of their own kamma).

              L: This is that kind, that when heard involves us in more kusala. Buddha said we all heir our deeds. And hearing this we can develop more and more kusala. Buddha saw as a dreamy people. He had to use similes and concepts to make us understand. Buddha wisom penetrated all the Universe, he was vibhajavadi, that means that he knew, how different concepts condition different understandings for different people. This is why he teach so differentiated Dhamma for so long (40 years). Buddha did not make a religion or theory, he only wanted us to understand. That was his goal.
              We have to listen Dhamma in detailed way. And develop all kinds of kusala.
              Dhamma heard has a strenght to encourage us to dvelop more kusala. That's enought. I think there is no need to introduce a Self.


              Best wishes
              Lukas
            • Nina van Gorkom
              Dear Alex, ... N: When we read this text we may have misunderstandings. From the beginbning it should be known that there is no person who decides: first this,
              Message 6 of 18 , Dec 2, 2009
                Dear Alex,
                Op 1-dec-2009, om 20:52 heeft truth_aerator het volgende geschreven:

                > So if one does bare-insight, one needs to start with matter and
                > then proceed to nama.
                >
                > If one does Jhana as part of "serenity path", than one can start
                > with nama.
                ---------
                N: When we read this text we may have misunderstandings. From the
                beginbning it should be known that there is no person who decides:
                first this, than that and directs his attention to rupa or nama.
                Impossible. Sati is anattaa and nobody can direct it.
                When you have studied Visuddhimagga Ch XIV, where all realities, nama
                and rupa, are dealt with you will understand that sati is a cetasika
                and that it arises because of its proper conditions.
                It is possible that because of conditions there is awareness more
                often of rupa than of nama, but no selection. They are all anattaa.
                Besides, in order to understand the rupas classified under
                mindfulness of the body, also nama that experiences these has to be
                understood, otherwise one mixes nama and rupa.
                A person who has developed jhaana and emerges from jhaana may be
                aware of the jhaana-factors that just arose and fell away. But he
                should develop understanding of whatever relaity appears.
                Anattaa should not be forgotten, from the beginning to the end.
                Nina.



                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • jonoabb
                Hi Alex (102975) ... The passage you ve quoted (below) is from the section of the Vism dealing with the Purification of View (aka the Defining of
                Message 7 of 18 , Dec 11, 2009
                  Hi Alex

                  (102975)
                  > It is right that nama is hard to discern. It is harder to discern than rupa. This is why Buddha has often advised us to start with rupa and after it (rupa) becomes clear, then proceed till nama.
                  >
                  > The famous satipatthana sutta starts with kayagatasati and THEN proceeds to nama (vedana, citta satipatthana).
                  >
                  > In VsM it says that one whose vehicle is serenity should define mentality first. Whose vehicle is bare insight, starts with the body.
                  > ===============

                  The passage you've quoted (below) is from the section of the Vism dealing with the Purification of View (aka the Defining of Mentality-Materiality).

                  The purifications are very advanced levels of insight. A person who is within reach of that level of insight must have already developed satipatthana with both nama and rupa as object to a high degree. So it's not a matter of developing insight of one kind of object to the exclusion of another.

                  Furthermore, the part you've quoted is only one of five ways in which materiality-mentality may be 'defined'. This defining may be based on the Four Primaries (as here), on the Eighteen Elements, on the Twelve Bases, on the Five Aggregates or on the Four Primaries again (brief version). These classifications are meant to be illustrative rather than explicit methods. So there is no general rule to be extracted here to the effect that the development of insight is to start with one kind of object or another.

                  As I've mentioned before, I don't think the terms "one whose vehicle is serenity" and "one whose vehicle is insight" are to be taken as suggesting that a person is to choose to be one or the other and to then "practice" accordingly. As far as I can ascertain, this reference to those terms is the first time they're mentioned in the Vism.

                  Jon


                  > VsM XVIII, 3
                  >
                  > [DEFINING OF MENTALITY-MATERIALITY]
                  > [(1) DEFINITION BASED ON THE FOUR PRIMARIES]
                  > [(a) Starting with Mentality]
                  > "One who wants to accomplish this, if, firstly, his vehicle is serenity, should emerge from any fine-material or immaterial jhana, except the base consisting of neither perception nor non-perception,3 and he should discern, according to characteristic, function, etc., the jhana factors consisting of applied thought, etc., and the states associated with them, [that is, feeling, perception, and so on]. When he has done so, all that should be defined as 'mentality' (nama) in the sense of bending (namana) because of its bending on to the object.
                  >
                  >
                  > [(b) Starting with Materiality]
                  > 5. But one whose vehicle is pure insight, or that same aforesaid one
                  > whose vehicle is serenity, discerns the four elements in brief or in detail in one of the various ways given in the chapter on the definition of the four elements (Ch. XI, §27ff.). Then when the elements have become clear in their correct essential characteristics, firstly, in the case of head hair originated by kamma there become plain ten instances of materiality (rilpdni) with the body decad thus: the four elements, colour, odour, flavour, nutritive essence, and life, and body sensitivity.
                  >
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