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[dsg] The Buddha's Path, Ch 5, no 6.

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  • Nina van Gorkom
    Dear friends, Some people are born in countries where there is war and famine, others in countries where there is peace and prosperity. This does not happen by
    Message 1 of 10 , Dec 1, 2009
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      Dear friends,

      Some people are born in countries where there is war and famine,
      others in countries where there is peace and prosperity. This does
      not happen by chance; kamma, a deed performed in the past, is the
      cause. If kamma is the cause of birth, what is then the role of the
      parents? Parents are also a condition for the birth of a child, but
      they are not the only condition. Kamma produces at the first moment
      of life the citta which is the rebirth-consciousness. The new human
      being which comes to life consists of mental phenomena and bodily
      phenomena. The physical phenomena which arise at the first moment of
      life must also have a cause: kamma is the cause. Thus, at the first
      moment of life there is mental result as well as physical result of
      kamma. Kamma is not the only factor from which bodily phenomena
      originate. There are four factors in all: kamma, citta, temperature
      and nutrition. After kamma has produced bodily phenomena at the first
      moment of life, the other factors also produce bodily phenomena. As
      to the factor of temperature, there has to be the right temperature
      for the new being in the womb in order to develop. When the mother
      takes food, nutrition is suffused in the body and then nutrition is
      also producing bodily phenomena for the being in the womb. Citta is a
      condition as well for bodily phenomena arising throughout our life.
      If there were no citta we could not stay alive, we could not move, we
      could not perform any activities. If we remember the four factors
      which produce bodily phenomena, namely kamma, citta, temperature and
      nutrition, it will help us to understand that the body does not
      belong to a self. What we call �my body� consists of bodily phenomena
      which arise because of different conditions and then fall away.
      Kamma produces bodily phenomena at the first moment of a lifespan and
      also throughout life. It is kamma which produces the sense organs of
      eyesense, earsense, smellingsense, tastingsense and bodysense. The
      sense organs which are the physical results of kamma are the means
      for the experiences which are the mental results of kamma: seeing,
      hearing and the other sense impressions. Thus, kamma produces result
      at the first moment of life, it produces the births of beings, and in
      the course of life it also produces pleasant and unpleasant results
      in the form of experiences through the senses.

      *******
      Nina.

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    • Herman
      Hi NIna, 2009/12/1 Nina van Gorkom ... This deed performed in the past, was there a doer of that deed? Cheers Herman [Non-text portions of
      Message 2 of 10 , Dec 2, 2009
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        Hi NIna,

        2009/12/1 Nina van Gorkom <vangorko@...>

        > Dear friends,
        >
        > Some people are born in countries where there is war and famine,
        > others in countries where there is peace and prosperity. This does
        > not happen by chance; kamma, a deed performed in the past, is the
        > cause.


        This deed performed in the past, was there a doer of that deed?

        Cheers

        Herman


        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Ken O
        Dear Herman hmm, I smell a catch somewhere :-) There is no doer in ultmate sense but there is a past citta accompany by aksuala roots that cause the aksuala
        Message 3 of 10 , Dec 3, 2009
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          Dear Herman

          hmm, I smell a catch somewhere :-)

          There is no doer in ultmate sense but there is a past citta accompany by aksuala roots that cause the aksuala kamma that reap the deed now.


          Cheers
          Ken O



          >
          >From: Herman <hhofmeister@...>
          >To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com
          >Sent: Thursday, 3 December 2009 2:05:56
          >Subject: Re: [dsg] The Buddha's Path, Ch 5, no 6.
          >

          >Hi NIna,
          >
          >2009/12/1 Nina van Gorkom <vangorko@xs4all. nl>
          >
          >> Dear friends,
          >>
          >> Some people are born in countries where there is war and famine,
          >> others in countries where there is peace and prosperity. This does
          >> not happen by chance; kamma, a deed performed in the past, is the
          >> cause.
          >
          >This deed performed in the past, was there a doer of that deed?
          >
          >Cheers
          >
          >Herman
          >
          >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >
          >
          >


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        • Nina van Gorkom
          Dear Herman, ... N: I think you know the answer: no doer, no person who acts. There were conditions for such or such activities. Perhaps hard to accept? We are
          Message 4 of 10 , Dec 3, 2009
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            Dear Herman,
            Op 3-dec-2009, om 7:05 heeft Herman het volgende geschreven:

            > This deed performed in the past, was there a doer of that deed?
            ------
            N: I think you know the answer: no doer, no person who acts. There
            were conditions for such or such activities. Perhaps hard to accept?
            We are always inclined to think of my action, good or bad, 'I did
            this'. By listening to the Dhamma understanding grows and it is
            understanding that can detect such thoughts.

            Nina.



            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • connie
            dear Herman and All, H: This deed performed in the past, was there a doer of that deed? the book: If kamma is the cause of birth, what is then the role of the
            Message 5 of 10 , Dec 3, 2009
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              dear Herman and All,

              H: This deed performed in the past, was there a doer of that deed?

              the book: If kamma is the cause of birth, what is then the role of the parents?

              c: Some parent(s) are more akin to "countries where there is war and famine, others ... where there is peace and prosperity" - but all are alike in being "merely names, expressions, turns of speech, designations in common use in the world" where "A man who sees will see [only] name-and-form; having seen, he will know only these things ... The brahman, considering, does not submit to figments. He does not follow views, [and] he has no association with knowledge, and knowing commonplace opinions he is indifferent to them, [saying] "Let others take them up" [Sn909-911].

              Isn't pride of birth one of the first things to go?

              peace,
              connie

              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Herman
              Hi connie, 2009/12/3 connie ... Go and ask someone who thinks they were born. Cheers Herman [Non-text portions of this message have been
              Message 6 of 10 , Dec 3, 2009
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                Hi connie,

                2009/12/3 connie <nichicon@...>

                > dear Herman and All,
                >
                > H: This deed performed in the past, was there a doer of that deed?
                >
                > the book: If kamma is the cause of birth, what is then the role of the
                > parents?
                >
                > c: Some parent(s) are more akin to "countries where there is war and
                > famine, others ... where there is peace and prosperity" - but all are alike
                > in being "merely names, expressions, turns of speech, designations in common
                > use in the world" where "A man who sees will see [only] name-and-form;
                > having seen, he will know only these things ... The brahman, considering,
                > does not submit to figments. He does not follow views, [and] he has no
                > association with knowledge, and knowing commonplace opinions he is
                > indifferent to them, [saying] "Let others take them up" [Sn909-911].
                >
                > Isn't pride of birth one of the first things to go?
                >
                >
                Go and ask someone who thinks they were born.

                Cheers

                Herman


                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Herman
                Hello Nina, 2009/12/3 Nina van Gorkom ... Thank for your answer, and yes, that was the answer I expected you would give. It is not so hard
                Message 7 of 10 , Dec 3, 2009
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                  Hello Nina,

                  2009/12/3 Nina van Gorkom <vangorko@...>

                  > Dear Herman,
                  > Op 3-dec-2009, om 7:05 heeft Herman het volgende geschreven:
                  >
                  > > This deed performed in the past, was there a doer of that deed?
                  > ------
                  > N: I think you know the answer: no doer, no person who acts. There
                  > were conditions for such or such activities. Perhaps hard to accept?
                  > We are always inclined to think of my action, good or bad, 'I did
                  > this'. By listening to the Dhamma understanding grows and it is
                  > understanding that can detect such thoughts.
                  >
                  >
                  Thank for your answer, and yes, that was the answer I expected you would
                  give. It is not so hard to accept if one understands that your answer is a
                  kind of view, an attitude. It is a retrospective view of things, looking
                  back a deed is just something that happened, like a tree falling over. You
                  say people are born into poverty because of past deeds, and that means to
                  me, in the context of what you say, that people are born into poverty
                  because things have happened in the past. That is very acceptable and
                  comfortable, things just happened, nothing can change that past.

                  An other view or attitude that is possible is the prospective view, a
                  forward looking view. It is characterised by the thought "what should be
                  done next?" In whatever situation, whether a poor person, a sick person, a
                  beautiful or a prosperous person is seen, or no-one at all, the prospective
                  attitude is available, it can be asked "what deed should be done next?" This
                  is quite an unpleasant and uncomfortable attitude when adopted, because
                  there is always going to be enormous doubt and uncertainty about whatever
                  happens next, and the consequences following on from that happening.

                  (As an aside, some imagine they are able to know the present, as it stands.
                  This, of course, is an illusion, we only remember what is already past, or
                  imagine all kinds of unknown futures.)

                  Now, as you know, there are two kinds of people, those who say there are
                  kinds of people, and those who don't :-) But seriously, is there any use in
                  differentiating between different kinds of beings, if all that happens,
                  simply happens? Is there a difference between being a tree and a human?

                  Cheers


                  Herman


                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • connie
                  dear Herman and All, c: Isn t pride of birth one of the first things to go? H: Go and ask someone who thinks they were born. c: Sorry again! - just
                  Message 8 of 10 , Dec 3, 2009
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                    dear Herman and All,

                    c:> Isn't pride of birth one of the first things to go?
                    H:> Go and ask someone who thinks they were born.

                    c: Sorry again! - just reference hunting & hadn't realized the room was full of folk who don't get caught up in that. Gimme a break.
                    I stopped at Sn 911: "Let others take them up".
                    I considered that if most of life's moments tend towards akusala, it's like we're [pardon me, but "ferally"] fetched up by wolves (lobha, dosa & moha) and the importance of hearing The Voice from Another. When that tangent wound down, i thought about Nina and Han with respect and appreciation because i enjoy Rupas, too. But I forget: <Affected by various forms, he would not stay forming mental images about himself.
                    Only within himself would he be at peace. A bhikkhu would not seek peace from another. For one who is at peace within himself there is nothing taken up, how much less anything laid down. (Sn 918-9)> That one would safeguard truth alone, methinks.
                    peace,
                    connie

                    re: If kamma is the cause of birth, what is then the role of the parents?

                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • Nina van Gorkom
                    Dear Herman, ... N: I see it this way: there is a threefold cycle. At this moment there is vipaaka in the form of pleasant or unpleasant sense- cognitions. On
                    Message 9 of 10 , Dec 4, 2009
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                      Dear Herman,
                      Op 3-dec-2009, om 13:04 heeft Herman het volgende geschreven:

                      > your answer is a
                      > kind of view, an attitude. It is a retrospective view of things,
                      > looking
                      > back a deed is just something that happened, like a tree falling over.
                      -------
                      N: I see it this way: there is a threefold cycle. At this moment
                      there is vipaaka in the form of pleasant or unpleasant sense-
                      cognitions. On account of such experiences defilements are bound to
                      arise. Defilements condition action, kamma, that produces again
                      result. We are going around and around, but through right
                      understanding of realities this cycle can eventually be broken. By
                      listening to the Dhamma a beginning can be made.
                      Nina.



                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • connie
                      dear brother hoffmeister and all, you don t know her, but i hope my hoffsis milly is well. i know, name-calling s a lousy way to show affection, but
                      Message 10 of 10 , Dec 8, 2009
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                        dear brother hoffmeister and all,
                        you don't know her, but i hope my "hoffsis" milly is well. i know, name-calling's a lousy way to show affection, but affection bugs me, anyway, with it's creepy crawly worms of delight. so, enuf friendly chit-chat -& back to the ? re: If kamma is the cause of birth, what is then the role of the parents?
                        accidents of conception waiting to happen? whatever supportive role comes along, kalyanamitta.
                        to the happiness of the royal deva Vessantara, there's the role in SN iv Great Sacrifice ch $10: <Nanda's mother, a lay disciple of Velukanda, rose before dawn one night and sang the 'Way to the Beyond'>, wherein <'They hoped, praised, longed for and sacrificed, Pu.n.naka', said the Blessed One. 'They longed for sensual pleasures, dependent upon gain. I say that they, given over to sacrifice and affected by passion for existence, did not cross over birth and old age.' (Sn1046)> and Mettaguu bows down, "Perhaps the Blessed One would admonish me without stopping."
                        sometimes, the abysmal role of victim to the beloved's heinousness; few lucky enough to play the coveted Bimbisara then!
                        it's a burdensome role - yet painfully brief is existence & how long the sorrow when few rightly adopt the practises of treating each mothers' son quite the same, or when sila is torn out of "love".
                        peace,
                        connie

                        Path of Purity, p763 n1: "The sign is just the appearance, as it were bodily, through the classification of their own functions, of the complexes, which have been seized as stable or permanent in the intervals of time, by the notion of oneness in continuity and in mass" - Tika. <snip pali>



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