Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.
 

Re: [dsg] Analytical study of 5 Khandhas, 12 bases & 18 elements

Expand Messages
  • sarah abbott
    Hi Alex & all, Hope you re still around as belatedly, I d like to add a few comments on this: #100582. I believe Nina added a couple, but I marked a few more
    Message 1 of 9 , Oct 1, 2009
      Hi Alex & all,

      Hope you're still around as belatedly, I'd like to add a few comments on this: #100582. I believe Nina added a couple, but I marked a few more which you might like to consider. Clearly, this is an instance where we'd be completely lost without the Abhidhamma (and commentaries), I think you'd agree:-))

      --- On Thu, 10/9/09, truth_aerator <truth_aerator@...> wrote:

      >After reading many suttas (MN148, SN22.57, SN 35.197, Thig 3.2) where analysis into khandha, ayatana, dhatu was praised, I've decided to do a little investigation myself.
      ...
      S: Great! Glad to see your interest.
      ....
      >So I've made a certain cut outs to study, which I wanted to share with anyone interested.

      >Mind base (manayatana) , = all (89) consciousness .
      ...
      S: If we don't count jhana and lokuttara cittas, which make 121 cittas altogether.
      ...
      >cognizable base (dhammayatana) & cognizable element (dhamma dhatu) = 52 cetasika.
      ...
      S: 52 cetasikas + all 16 subtle rupas (i.e all rupas apart from the 12 gross rupas which are the 5 sense bases and the 7 rupas experienced through the senses) + nibbana (in context)
      ...
      Mind element (manodhatu), = 5 door advertance, 2 recipient citta.
      Mind consciousness element (manovinnana) = 76 consc.
      ...
      S: Correct (again, if we don't include jhana and lokuttara cittas)- manovinnana dhatu = all cittas other than dvi-panca-vinnanas (i.e. seeing etc) and 3 manodhatu cittas you refer to above (pancadvaravajjana citta and 2 sampaticchana cittas).
      ....
      >Sensation = vedana

      >The all 12 bases (ayatana):
      The eye and forms, the ear and sounds, the nose and odours, the tongue and tastes, the body and tactile objects, the mind and cognizables.
      ...
      S: 'Cognizables' is misleading. What is meant are subtle rupas, cetasikas and nibbana - all experienced through the mind-door only.
      ...
      >18 Elements (dhatu): Above 12 bases + 6 consciousness.
      ....
      S: We can't put it like that. The 12 bases consist of the 18 elements. There is no consciousness apart from those included in manayatana. [see 'Ayatanas' in U.P.]
      ....
      >Dependent on the eye & forms there arises consciousness at the eye. <...>

      >Seeing the appearance is mental reality, eye-consciousness, which is consciousness aggregate, mind base and eye-consciousness element.

      >Pleasant, unpleasant or neutral eye-sensation (cakkhu-vedana) is mental reality that is sensation aggregate, cognizable base and eye-consciousness element.
      ...
      S: You mean the vedana is dhamma-dhatu surely? Not eye-consciousness element.
      ...
      <...>
      >Pleasant, unpleasant or neutral ear-sensation is mental reality that is sensation aggregate, cognizable base and ear-consciousness element.
      ...
      S: Same again. any vedana is dhamma-dhatu. It is not ear-consciousness.
      Same for all the others.
      ...
      <...>
      >Bare mental cognition itself is mental reality that is consciousness aggregate, mind base and mind element.
      ...
      S: All ciitas which are not the panca-vinnanas and not the 3 in mano-dhatu above are included in mano-vinnana dhatu (mind-consciousness element), not mind-element.
      ....
      >Desire, dislike, greed or hate, Wisdom or ignorance is a mental reality that is mental formation aggregate, cognizable object base and cognizable object element.

      Pleasant, unpleasant or neutral mental sensation is mental reality that is sensation aggregate, cognizable object base and cognizable object element.
      ...
      S: All cetasikas are included in dhamma-dhatu (element of dhammas inc. cetasikas, subtle rupas and nibbana). I'm not sure if this is what you refer to here. Sometimes the English translations are confusing.
      ...
      ============ ========= =

      >Any suggestions, comments, critiques?
      ...
      S: Hope this of some use. I've just picked up a few minor errors as I read them, but mostly it was correct and a good, keen study of Abhidhamma. Look forward to more! Helps test out my understanding of the terms as well. So everything we take for being important are in reality, just these elements or the coming together of various ayatanas. No room for any self or thing in them.
      ...
      >I know that i've used a bit different scheme for primary elements of earth,water, fire & air. For example the source of taste, food contains not only hardness, cohesion & moisture, but temperature and it may be cooked or uncooked.
      ...
      S: I'm not quite sure where you're going on this one. Food, of course, is a concept, but yes, different kalapas consisting of different 'ingredients'.

      Look forward to more discussion.

      Metta

      Sarah
      ======
    • truth_aerator
      Hello Sarah, and all, ... Thank you for that point. Though I don t think that I made an error. Both ayatana & 18 dhatu have dhamma-ayatana/dhatu, but 18 dhatu
      Message 2 of 9 , Oct 1, 2009
        Hello Sarah, and all,

        > sarah abbott <sarahprocterabbott@...> wrote:
        >
        > Hi Alex & all,
        > ...
        > >18 Elements (dhatu): Above 12 bases + 6 consciousness.
        > ....
        > S: We can't put it like that. The 12 bases consist of the 18 elements. There is no consciousness apart from those included in manayatana. [see 'Ayatanas' in U.P.]
        > ....

        Thank you for that point. Though I don't think that I made an error.

        Both ayatana & 18 dhatu have dhamma-ayatana/dhatu, but 18 dhatu have more specific analysis of 6 consciousness (which fit in dhamma ayatana).




        > >Pleasant, unpleasant or neutral eye-sensation (cakkhu-vedana) is mental reality that is sensation aggregate, cognizable base and eye-consciousness element.
        > ...
        > S: You mean the vedana is dhamma-dhatu surely? Not eye-consciousness element.
        > ...
        > S: Same again. any vedana is dhamma-dhatu. It is not ear-consciousness.
        > Same for all the others.
        > ...


        First, by sensation I mean vedana. I don't like word "feeling" in most cases.

        2nd) The suttas do talk that 6 organs can experience sukha/dukkha sensations. That is why there is such classification of 18 sensations (6x3) and so on.

        I know that some say that eye can experience only neutral sensations, or something like that. Suttas say otherwise.

        But even if we say that only body & mind can experience pleasant/unpleasant/neutral - why isn't eye/ear/nose/tongue BODY or related to mind? They are! And because of this they can experience 3 types of sensations that body/mind can.


        With metta,


        Alex
      • sarah abbott
        Hi Alex, Thx for responding. What a treat to discuss dhatus and ayatanas with you:-) ... A: Thank you for that point. Though I don t think that I made an
        Message 3 of 9 , Oct 2, 2009
          Hi Alex,

          Thx for responding. What a treat to discuss dhatus and ayatanas with you:-)
          ...

          --- On Thu, 1/10/09, truth_aerator <truth_aerator@...> wrote:
          > >a: 18 Elements (dhatu): Above 12 bases + 6 consciousness.
          > ....
          > S: We can't put it like that. The 12 bases consist of the 18 elements. There is no consciousness apart from those included in manayatana. [see 'Ayatanas' in U.P.]
          > ....

          A:>Thank you for that point. Though I don't think that I made an error.

          >Both ayatana & 18 dhatu have dhamma-ayatana/ dhatu, but 18 dhatu have more specific analysis of 6 consciousness (which fit in dhamma ayatana).
          ...
          S: Let's be clear on this:
          1. Manayatana includes ALL cittas, all consciousness, so there are no other kinds of consciousness outside manayatana and therefore the 12 bases.

          2. Dhammayatana includes all cetasikas, subtle rupas and nibbana. There are no cittas, no kinds of consciousnes "which fit in dhamma ayatana".

          3. When defining the elements by way of 18 dhatu, there are several dhatus referring to cittas, i.e.: cakkhu-vinnana dhatu, sota-vinnana, ghana-v, jivha-v, kaya-v, mano-dhatu (inc. panca-dvaravajjana citta, 2 sampaticchana cittas, and mano-vinnana dhatu (inc. all other cittas). These are collectively referred to as vinnana-dhatu.

          Pls let me know if this is not clear or if you still disagree. I know it's a tricky area.

          How do you see the present moment practice with regard to dhatus and ayatanas?
          ....

          > >Pleasant, unpleasant or neutral eye-sensation (cakkhu-vedana) is mental reality that is sensation aggregate, cognizable base and eye-consciousness element.
          > ...
          > S: You mean the vedana is dhamma-dhatu surely? Not eye-consciousness element.
          > ...
          > S: Same again. any vedana is dhamma-dhatu. It is not ear-consciousness.
          > Same for all the others.
          > ...

          First, by sensation I mean vedana. I don't like word "feeling" in most cases.
          ...
          S: OK, let's just stick to vedana. The problem with "sensation" is that people usually associate it with what is experienced through the body-sense, rather than mental feelings, wouldn't you agree?
          ...
          >2nd) The suttas do talk that 6 organs can experience sukha/dukkha sensations. That is why there is such classification of 18 sensations (6x3) and so on.
          ...
          S: Let's be clear that:

          1. All vedana, whether pleasant, unpleasant or neutral, whether bodily or mental, are all cetasikas, mental factors and therefore all included in dhammayatana or dhamma dhatu.

          2.I don't think the suttas say that the sense-bases, such as eye-sense, experience anything. They are rupas. Rupas cannot experience objects.

          3. Sukha/dukkha refer to bodily pleasant and unpleasant feelings. This means that they arise with the citta, body-consciousness which experiences tangible object, i.e temperature, solidity or motion.

          4. Vedana are classified in many different ways. For example, sometimes they are classified as sixfold, referring to the vedana which arise through the 6 doors. Sometimes threefold, referring to pleasant, unpleasant and neutral, sometimes 18, referring to the sixfold, past, future and present. However they are classified, they are always referring to the (mental) cetasika which accompanies every single citta.
          ...

          >I know that some say that eye can experience only neutral sensations, or something like that. Suttas say otherwise.
          ...
          S: The texts say nothing like that. The eye cannot experience anything. It is eye consciousness which experiences visible object. This citta is always accompanied by neutral feeling. I've never seen a sutta say what you suggest above;-)
          ...
          >But even if we say that only body & mind can experience pleasant/unpleasant /neutral
          ...
          S: You've got this mixed up, Alex. See above and let me know if it's still not clear. I think these are important points and I'm glad you've raised them. It's impossible to understand namas and rupas appearing now if we have a confused idea about them.
          ...
          >- why isn't eye/ear/nose/ tongue BODY or related to mind? They are! And because of this they can experience 3 types of sensations that body/mind can.
          ...
          S: Sorry, but this is flawed....

          How can eye-sense experience anything? Or if you mean seeing consciousness, how can it experience anything other than visible object?

          I look forward to further discussion on these points.

          Metta

          Sarah
          =======
        • Sadhu Chew
          Hi all, I read this at http://www.buddhanet.net/budsas/ebud/mahasi-anat/anat02.htm and would like to share with you all. A DISCREPANCY BETWEEN ABHIDHAMMA AND
          Message 4 of 9 , Oct 2, 2009
            Hi all,

            I read this at
            http://www.buddhanet.net/budsas/ebud/mahasi-anat/anat02.htm

            and would like to share with you all.

            A DISCREPANCY BETWEEN ABHIDHAMMA AND SUTTAS

            According to the teachings of the Abhidhamma, there is neither pleasant nor unpleasant feeling at the moment of seeing, hearing, smelling, or tasting, just equanimous feeling. But in the Suttas there are discourses which describe how all these feelings, pleasant, unpleasant and neutral, arise at all the sense doors, and there are discourses exhorting us to contemplate these feelings at the moment of seeing and hearing so as to comprehend their true nature.

            The Sub-Commentary of the Visuddhimagga explains how pleasant, unpleasant and neutral feelings become evident at the moment of seeing and hearing in these words:

            "Although it is said that eye consciousness is accompanied by equanimity, the resultant effect of an unwholesome act is unpleasant in nature, it cannot be pleasant. Likewise, although it is stated that the resultant effect of a wholesome act is equanimity, it is pleasant in nature. All moral acts bear good, pleasant results."

            This explanation is most appropriate and can be verified through practical experience. When a beautiful object is sighted, the feeling of pleasantness is evident even as the object is being seen. When a terrifying, repulsive, or hateful object is sighted, the feeling of horror or aversion is quite evident, too, even while seeing the object. These experiences are more pronounced in the case of hearing than in the case of seeing. A sweet, pleasant sound produces a sweet, pleasant effect; an extremely loud sound may inflict unbearable pain on the hearer. The resultant effect is distinct also in smelling: a pleasant sensation arises in the nose as soon as a fragrant aroma is smelt, whereas a foul, putrid smell may cause immediate nausea, headache or other ills. A whiff of a poisonous odor may even cause death. The most pronounced effect may be experienced in the act of eating. While a tasty, delicious dish produces a delightful sensation on the tongue, the bitter taste of some medicines is very unpleasant and disagreeable. A poisonous substance will cause intense suffering and may even result in death.

            "Thus, although it is stated that eye-consciousness is accompanied by indifference, the unwholesome resultant equanimity which experiences disagreeable objects is in the nature of suffering, and the wholesome resultant equanimity which experiences agreeable objects has the nature of happiness." These comments from the Sub-Commentary are most appropriate. We find therefore the Suttas mention that all three types of feeling may be excited at the moment of sensory awareness. Alternatively, as it is possible for any of the three feelings to arise at the moment of javana, impulsion consciousness, during the eye-door thought process (cakkhudvaara vithii), the Suttas mention all three types of feeling being excited during sensory awareness.

            May all beings be well and happy.

            With respect,
            Chew
          • Nina van Gorkom
            Dear Chew, it is no problem, the suttas do not give all the details of the processes. Seeing is accompanied by indifferent feeling, no matter whether the
            Message 5 of 9 , Oct 2, 2009
              Dear Chew,
              it is no problem, the suttas do not give all the details of the
              processes. Seeing is accompanied by indifferent feeling, no matter
              whether the object is pleasant or unpleasant, but very soon after
              seeing there are javanacittas that can be accompanied by pleasant
              feeling, unpleasant feeling or indifferent feeling. This depends on
              the citta the feeling accompanies.
              Cittas succeed one another so fast that it seems that pleasant
              feeling, for example, can accompany seeing, but this is not so.
              I do not find it contradictory that the suttas do not give all the
              details.
              Mahasi refers to the tiika to the Visuddhimagga, and when I have time
              I look for the exact text, I studied the Pali Tiika to the
              Khandhavagga. Nowhere have I found contradictions when studying the
              feeling khandha.
              I take abreak until next week.
              Nina.
              Op 2-okt-2009, om 16:55 heeft Sadhu Chew het volgende geschreven:

              > According to the teachings of the Abhidhamma, there is neither
              > pleasant nor unpleasant feeling at the moment of seeing, hearing,
              > smelling, or tasting, just equanimous feeling. But in the Suttas
              > there are discourses which describe how all these feelings,
              > pleasant, unpleasant and neutral, arise at all the sense doors, and
              > there are discourses exhorting us to contemplate these feelings at
              > the moment of seeing and hearing so as to comprehend their true
              > nature.



              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • sarah abbott
              Dear Chew, You ve been studying the Abhidhamma carefully. What are your own comments on those you quote from Mahasi Sayadaw? Do you read there as being any
              Message 6 of 9 , Oct 3, 2009
                Dear Chew,

                You've been studying the Abhidhamma carefully. What are your own comments on those you quote from Mahasi Sayadaw? Do you read there as being any discrepancy between the texts, or do you note a number of misunderstandings in the article?

                Metta

                Sarah

                --- On Fri, 2/10/09, Sadhu Chew <chewsadhu@...> wrote:
                >I read this at
                http://www.buddhane t.net/budsas/ ebud/mahasi- anat/anat02. htm

                and would like to share with you all.

                A DISCREPANCY BETWEEN ABHIDHAMMA AND SUTTAS
                <...>
              Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.