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Re: [dsg] Remastered!

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  • christine_forsyth
    ... Hello Geri geri, Bhikkhu Bodhi gives a summary: 3. The Third Precept: Abstinence from Misconduct in regard to Sense Pleasures Misconduct is regard to sense
    Message 1 of 26 , Aug 29, 2009
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      --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Geri geri <sac9090@...> wrote:
      >
      > Hi does anybody know where I can get a list of the 20 illicit women that would be a breach of the third precept if one has sexual relations with them?  and also is there a list of illicit men for women?  Are gay sexual relations an illicit endeavor and a breach of the third precept? Thanks.  And does anybody know why I can't post messages and start a new topic on the Groups page?
      >
      Hello Geri geri,

      Bhikkhu Bodhi gives a summary:

      3. The Third Precept: Abstinence from Misconduct in regard to Sense Pleasures
      Misconduct is regard to sense pleasures is formally defined as "the volition with sexual intent occurring through the bodily door, causing transgression with an illicit partner".8 The primary question this definition elicits is: who is to qualify as an illicit partner? For men, the text lists twenty types of women who are illicit partners. These can be grouped into three categories: (1) a woman who is under the protection of elders or other authorities charged with her care, e.g., a girl being cared for by parents, by an older brother or sister, by other relatives, or by the family as a whole; (2) a woman who is prohibited by convention, that is, close relatives forbidden under family tradition, nuns and other women vowed to observe celibacy as a spiritual discipline, and those forbidden as partners under the law of the land; and (3) a woman who is married or engaged to another man, even one bound to another man only by a temporary agreement. In the case of women, for those who are married any man other than a husband is an illicit partner. For all women a man forbidden by tradition or under religious rules is prohibited as a partner. For both men and women any violent, forced, or coercive union, whether by physical compulsion or psychological pressure, can be regarded as a transgression of the precept even when the partner is not otherwise illicit. But a man or woman who is widowed or divorced can freely remarry according to choice.
      http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/bodhi/wheel282.html

      metta
      Chris
      ---The trouble is that you think you have time---
    • han tun
      Dear Geri geri and Chris, To start with, I am very grateful to Chris for posting the article, Going for Refuge & Taking the Precepts, by Ven Bhikkhu Bodhi,
      Message 2 of 26 , Aug 29, 2009
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        Dear Geri geri and Chris,

        To start with, I am very grateful to Chris for posting the article, Going for Refuge & Taking the Precepts, by Ven Bhikkhu Bodhi, which is very useful for me.

        The following is the list of 20 forbidden women, which I got it from a Burmese book.

        (1) Maatu-rakkhita = woman under the protection of mother
        (2) Pitu-rakkhita = woman under the protection of father
        (3) Maataapitu-rakkhita = woman under the protection of mother and father
        (4) Bhaatu-rakkhita = woman under the protection of brothers
        (5) Bhaginii-rakkhita = woman under the protection of sisters
        (6) ~Naati-rakkhita = under the protection of relatives
        (7) Gotta-rakkhita = woman under the protection of family as a whole, or by family tradition
        (8) Dhamma-rakkhita = woman under the protection of dhamma-practicing colleagues (nuns)
        (9) Saarakkha = woman earmarked for marriage since birth, woman already engaged
        (10) Saparida.n.da = woman protected by risk of punishment (already selected by the king in olden days)
        (11) Dhanakkiita = woman already married with someone who gave her wealth
        (12) Chandavaasinii = woman already married with her consent
        (13) Bhogavaasinii = woman already married with someone who asked her to take care his wealth
        (14) Pa.tavaasinii = woman already married with someone who gave her clothing and jewelry
        (15) Odapattakinii = woman already married in the presence of the Elders and parents
        (16) Obhatacumba.taa = woman who was doing menial work, and was married by the master
        (17) Daasi-bhariyaa = woman servant as well as wife (married by the master)
        (18) Kammakaarii = woman slave or woman worker married by the master
        (19) Dhajaaha.taa = woman taken in a raid, but subsequently taken as a wife by the master
        (20) Muhuttikaa = temporary wife of a man (prostitute)

        kind regards,
        Han
      • ksheri3
        What makes something or/and someone FORBIDEN? IS IT WRONG TO NOT DESIRE THAT A KNIFE CUT YOUR THROAT? IS IT WRONG TO NOT GO TO BED DREAMING OF BEING MURDERED
        Message 3 of 26 , Aug 29, 2009
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          What makes something or/and someone FORBIDEN?

          IS IT WRONG TO NOT DESIRE THAT A KNIFE CUT YOUR THROAT?

          IS IT WRONG TO NOT GO TO BED DREAMING OF BEING MURDERED IN YOUR SLEAP <...>

          WHAT IS WRONG?

          WHAT IS THIS PERVERSION CALLED EVIL?

          WHICH CAME FIRST, THE CHICKEN OR THE EGG, THE CRIME OR THE POLICE OFFICER, GOOD OR EVIL?

          come now, if these questions cannot be easily answered, THEN ISN'T IT PROBABLY AND LIKELY that the person is under the influence of the drug called MONOTHEISM and EGO?

          toodles,
          colette




          --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, han tun <hantun1@...> wrote:
          >
          > Dear Geri geri and Chris,
          >
          > To start with, I am very grateful to Chris for posting the article, Going for Refuge & Taking the Precepts, by Ven Bhikkhu Bodhi, which is very useful for me.
          >
          > The following is the list of 20 forbidden women, which I got it from a Burmese book.
          <...>
        • scottduncan2
          Dear colette, Regarding these questions (one at a time): c: What makes something or/and someone FORBIDEN? Scott: Gradual Sayings The Book of Nines v (5) The
          Message 4 of 26 , Aug 30, 2009
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            Dear colette,

            Regarding these questions (one at a time):

            c: "What makes something or/and someone FORBIDEN?"

            Scott: Gradual Sayings The Book of Nines v (5) The Powers:

            "...And what, monks, is the power of wisdom?
            Such conditions as are bad and reckoned so; such as are good and reckoned so; such as are blameworthy and are reckoned so; such as are dark and reckoned so; such as are bright and reckoned so; such as are not to be sought after and reckoned so; such as are to be sought after and reckoned so; such as are not truly Ariyan and reckoned so; such as are truly Ariyan and reckoned so - all these things are clearly seen and by wisdom examined. And this, monks, is called the power of wisdom..."

            Scott: "Things and people."
            "Wholesome and unwholesome."

            Do you see these two categories as being the same? If things and people are merely construed, then wholesome and unwholesome must apply to a given moment of consciousness and its mental constituents.

            Am I FORBIDDEN to write to you?

            If so, then: MY GOD! WHAT HAVE I DONE? (Talking Heads)

            (And the GESTAPO can just get in line and file a GRIEVANCE like everyone else.)

            Sincerely,

            Scott.
          • scottduncan2
            Dear colette, Regarding question number two: c: IS IT WRONG TO NOT DESIRE THAT A KNIFE CUT YOUR THROAT? Scott: Death and Craving, of course. Why? Death is
            Message 5 of 26 , Aug 30, 2009
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              Dear colette,

              Regarding question number two:

              c: "IS IT WRONG TO NOT DESIRE THAT A KNIFE CUT YOUR THROAT?"

              Scott: Death and Craving, of course. Why? Death is easy 'THAT A KNIFE CUT YOUR THROAT' = Death. Craving takes a bit of a stretch. 'IS IT WRONG TO NOT DESIRE' = Is it right to desire. The double negative. And desire is craving. And craving leads to more of the same.

              So, is it wrong to wish to avoid death? Or, is it right to desire death?

              Gradual Sayings The Book of Fives ix (69) Disgust

              "Monks, these five things; when made become, made an increase in lead to complete disgust, dispassion, ending, calm, knowledge, enlightenment and to Nibbaana. What five? Monks, herein a monk abides in perceiving the foulness of the body; is conscious of the cloying of food; is conscious of distaste as to the world; perceives impermanence in all compounded things; and the thought of death is by him inwardly and well established..."

              Scott: Neither seeking nor fleeing from death. I still seem to want to live and would rather that the DETRACTORS and NAYSAYERS all go to hell (or at least just leave me alone) so maybe we're in the SAME BOAT.

              Sincerely,

              Scott.
            • scottduncan2
              Dear colette, Regarding the third question: c: IS IT WRONG TO NOT GO TO BED DREAMING OF BEING MURDERED IN YOUR SLEAP? Scott: Ah, a corollary. FEAR. RAGE.
              Message 6 of 26 , Aug 30, 2009
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                Dear colette,

                Regarding the third question:

                c: "IS IT WRONG TO NOT GO TO BED DREAMING OF BEING MURDERED IN YOUR SLEAP?"

                Scott: Ah, a corollary. FEAR. RAGE. The double negative. Thoughts in the night. MN 54, 19, To Potaliya:

                "Householder, suppose a man dreamt about lovely parks, lovely groves, lovely meadows, and lovely lakes, and on waking he saw nothing of it. So too, householder, a noble disciple considers thus: 'Sensual pleasures have been compared to a dream by the Blessed One; they provide much suffering and much despair, while the danger in them is great..."

                Scott: Is it right to dream of angels granting IMMORTALITY?

                Sincerely,

                Scott.
              • scottduncan2
                Dear colette, Regarding the fourth and fifth questions: c: WHAT IS WRONG? WHAT IS THIS PERVERSION CALLED EVIL? Scott: What is akusala/unwhholesome? Of the
                Message 7 of 26 , Aug 30, 2009
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                  Dear colette,

                  Regarding the fourth and fifth questions:

                  c: "WHAT IS WRONG? WHAT IS THIS PERVERSION CALLED EVIL?"

                  Scott: What is akusala/unwhholesome?

                  Of the 81 mundane cittas, there are 12 which are unwholesome:

                  8 Greed-rooted cittas (lobhamuulacittaani).
                  2 Hatred-rooted cittas (dosamuulacittaani).
                  2 Delusuion-rooted cittas (mohamullacittaani).

                  Of the 18 rootless cittas, there are 7 that are unwholesome-resultant.

                  Sincerely,

                  Scott.
                • scottduncan2
                  Dear colette, Regarding the sixth question: c: WHICH CAME FIRST, THE CHICKEN OR THE EGG, THE CRIME OR THE POLICE OFFICER, GOOD OR EVIL? Scott: I don t think
                  Message 8 of 26 , Aug 30, 2009
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                    Dear colette,

                    Regarding the sixth question:

                    c: "WHICH CAME FIRST, THE CHICKEN OR THE EGG, THE CRIME OR THE POLICE OFFICER, GOOD OR EVIL?"

                    Scott: I don't think there is a beginning to DELUSION.

                    Sincerely,

                    Scott.
                  • scottduncan2
                    Dear colette, Regarding: c: come now, if these questions cannot be easily answered, THEN ISN T IT PROBABLY AND LIKELY that the person is under the influence
                    Message 9 of 26 , Aug 30, 2009
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                      Dear colette,

                      Regarding:

                      c: "come now, if these questions cannot be easily answered, THEN ISN'T IT PROBABLY AND LIKELY that the person is under the influence of the drug called MONOTHEISM and EGO?"

                      Scott: Yeah.

                      Sincerely,

                      Scott.
                    • szmicio
                      Dear Colette and Scott ... L: Well, the Blessed One also said about the begining of transmigration:
                      Message 10 of 26 , Aug 30, 2009
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                        Dear Colette and Scott

                        > Regarding the sixth question:
                        >
                        > c: "WHICH CAME FIRST, THE CHICKEN OR THE EGG, THE CRIME OR THE POLICE OFFICER, GOOD OR EVIL?"
                        >
                        > Scott: I don't think there is a beginning to DELUSION.

                        L: Well, the Blessed One also said about the begining of transmigration:

                        <Just as a stick thrown up in the air lands sometimes on its base, sometimes on its side, sometimes on its tip; in the same way, beings hindered by ignorance and fettered by craving, transmigrating & wandering on, sometimes go from this world to another world, sometimes come from another world to this.

                        "Why is that? From an inconstruable beginning comes transmigration. A beginning point is not evident, though beings hindered by ignorance and fettered by craving are transmigrating & wandering on. Long have you thus experienced stress, experienced pain, experienced loss, swelling the cemeteries — enough to become disenchanted with all fabricated things, enough to become dispassionate, enough to be released.">

                        The whole Danda Sutta:
                        http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn15/sn15.009.than.html

                        This is also a great reminder not to think much about the beginning of transmigration and do not be too philosophical about that.

                        The ignorance is the cause of transmigration and in the patticcasamupada it's more clear. The transmigration is also only the moment of arising and falling away.

                        Best wishes
                        Lukas
                      • christine_forsyth
                        ... Hello Han, Thanks Han, I appreciate your response and have been able to cut and paste the parts of this thread relating to the OP s original request (only
                        Message 11 of 26 , Aug 30, 2009
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                          --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, han tun <hantun1@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > Dear Geri geri and Chris,
                          >
                          > To start with, I am very grateful to Chris for posting the article, Going for Refuge & Taking the Precepts, by Ven Bhikkhu Bodhi, which is very useful for me.
                          >
                          > The following is the list of 20 forbidden women, which I got it from a Burmese book.
                          >

                          Hello Han,

                          Thanks Han, I appreciate your response and have been able to cut and paste the parts of this thread relating to the OP's original request (only your post) and pass it on to a another friend as well. They were appreciative also.

                          Thank you again for your help.

                          metta
                          Chris
                          ---The trouble is that you think you have time---
                        • Geri geri
                          Hi Han tun, I m sorry I didn t seem to have gotten the list of 20 women.� Where is it? ... From: christine_forsyth ...
                          Message 12 of 26 , Aug 31, 2009
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                            Hi Han tun, I'm sorry I didn't seem to have gotten the list of 20 women.� Where is it?

                            --- On Mon, 8/31/09, christine_forsyth <cjforsyth1@...> wrote:

                            From: christine_forsyth <cjforsyth1@...>
                            <..>

                            --- In dhammastudygroup@ yahoogroups. com, han tun <hantun1@... > wrote:

                            >

                            > Dear Geri geri and Chris,

                            >

                            > To start with, I am very grateful to Chris for posting the article, Going for Refuge & Taking the Precepts, by Ven Bhikkhu Bodhi, which is very useful for me.

                            >

                            > The following is the list of 20 forbidden women, which I got it from a Burmese book.

                            <..>
                          • han tun
                            Dear Geri geri, ... Han: Please click on the following message. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/100386 Han
                            Message 13 of 26 , Sep 1, 2009
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                              Dear Geri geri,

                              > Geri geri: Hi Han tun, I'm sorry I didn't seem to have gotten the list of 20 women.� Where is it?

                              Han: Please click on the following message.
                              http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/100386

                              Han
                            • Geri geri
                              Thanks for the info.  Also do you know the sutta where a human seeker went as far as to the brahma realms to ask where the 4 elements cease?  Only to be told
                              Message 14 of 26 , Sep 2, 2009
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                                Thanks for the info.  Also do you know the sutta where a human seeker went as far as to the brahma realms to ask where the 4 elements cease?  Only to be told by the Great Brahma to go back to the Buddha and ask him?

                                --- On Tue, 9/1/09, han tun <hantun1@...> wrote:

                                From: han tun <hantun1@...>
                                Subject: Re: [dsg] Remastered!
                                To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com
                                Date: Tuesday, September 1, 2009, 4:37 PM






                                 





                                Dear Geri geri,



                                > Geri geri: Hi Han tun, I'm sorry I didn't seem to have gotten the list of 20 women.� Where is it?



                                Han: Please click on the following message.

                                http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/dhammastud ygroup/message/ 100386



                                Han































                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              • Geri geri
                                Also, we have the list of forbidden women.  But what about the list of forbidden men for women practitioners? ... From: han tun Subject:
                                Message 15 of 26 , Sep 2, 2009
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                                  Also, we have the list of forbidden women.  But what about the list of forbidden men for women practitioners?

                                  --- On Tue, 9/1/09, han tun <hantun1@...> wrote:

                                  From: han tun <hantun1@...>
                                  Subject: Re: [dsg] Remastered!
                                  To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com
                                  Date: Tuesday, September 1, 2009, 4:37 PM






                                   





                                  Dear Geri geri,



                                  > Geri geri: Hi Han tun, I'm sorry I didn't seem to have gotten the list of 20 women.� Where is it?



                                  Han: Please click on the following message.

                                  http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/dhammastud ygroup/message/ 100386



                                  Han































                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                • han tun
                                  Hi Geri geri, (1) Thanks for the info. Also do you know the sutta where a human seeker went as far as to the brahma realms to ask where the 4 elements cease?
                                  Message 16 of 26 , Sep 2, 2009
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                                    Hi Geri geri,

                                    (1) Thanks for the info. Also do you know the sutta where a human seeker went as far as to the brahma realms to ask where the 4 elements cease? Only to be told by the Great Brahma to go back to the Buddha and ask him?

                                    Han: I do not know that sutta.

                                    ------------------------------------

                                    (2) Also, we have the list of forbidden women. But what about the list of forbidden men for women practitioners?

                                    Han: I have not come across a list of forbidden men for the women.
                                    But I consider the message from Chris answers your question.
                                    The following is the extract from that message:
                                    [In the case of women, for those who are married, any man other than a husband is an illicit partner.]

                                    For the full message of Chris, please click on the following post.
                                    http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/100385

                                    Han
                                  • ksheri3
                                    Hi Lucas, SPLENDID! Great CAPTURE of the conflicting realities: How does a transmigration even have a potential of existing from NOTHING. You got the
                                    Message 17 of 26 , Sep 8, 2009
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                                      Hi Lucas,

                                      SPLENDID!

                                      Great CAPTURE of the conflicting realities: How does a "transmigration" even have a potential of existing from NOTHING. You got the thought! Meditate on it!

                                      Now this is my bias and predjudice but doesn't the meditation lead directly to YOGACHARA? I fully admit that it is more than possible for the medittation to lead to other outcomes but, to me, in my pair of shoes, it has always led me to the realization that there is a MIND-ONLY SCHOOL OF REALITY and that this school, this hallucination, is THE ONLY REASON FOR REALITY. What better of a school other than the Yogachara, IS THERE, that can relate and speak to me from my upbringing of excessive use of LSD, and mushrooms, etc? I am dealing with this unfathomable reality that exists where THE MIND is the "creator deity" and I've found that Karma is nothing more THAN, POTENTIALLY, than just an electrical connection between the individual's MIND and it's electrical activity which manifested this or that EMOTION but those exact same specific characteristics probalby existed many times before and many centuries before the single practictioner had them; therefore it is not the practictioner's karma, it is any person's karma, YET THAT PREVIOUSLY MANIFESTED KARMA IS OUT THERE, SOMEWHERE, IN THE ETHOS OR LOGOS OR WHERE EVER, and it's just waiting for a simlar connection to come along where it can get rid of it's force i.e. LIGHTNING.

                                      I look forward to returning to the DSG here and catching up over the few weeks that I've been "honing my bone" or sharpening my sword. ;) lol
                                      The post you gave me is OF INTEREST! and I figure that as I come down from this "exhaltation" or "bliss" I'll be working on that.

                                      HOLD IT!

                                      > The ignorance is the cause of transmigration and in the patticcasamupada it's more clear. The transmigration is also only the moment of arising and falling away.


                                      colette: I don't know how you can actually say what the or any "transmigration" is and where it came from, but I am open to discovery and to enlighten myself to THAT WHICH I ALREADY KNOW AND ACCEPT AS MY IGNORANCE. Maybe by reading the sutta, then I'll be able to better understand your position here. I shy away from taking such an explicit stand as defining where the 'transmigration' came from and what the 'transmigration' is, SINCE I HAVE YET TO HAVE HAD THE PLEASURE OF ABIDING IN SUCH A STATE/CONDITION as prescribed here.

                                      toodles,
                                      colette




                                      --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "szmicio" <szmicio@...> wrote:
                                      >
                                      > Dear Colette and Scott
                                      >
                                      > > Regarding the sixth question:
                                      > >
                                      > > c: "WHICH CAME FIRST, THE CHICKEN OR THE EGG, THE CRIME OR THE POLICE OFFICER, GOOD OR EVIL?"
                                      > >
                                      > > Scott: I don't think there is a beginning to DELUSION.
                                      >
                                      > L: Well, the Blessed One also said about the begining of transmigration:
                                      >
                                      > <Just as a stick thrown up in the air lands sometimes on its base, sometimes on its side, sometimes on its tip; in the same way, beings hindered by ignorance and fettered by craving, transmigrating & wandering on, sometimes go from this world to another world, sometimes come from another world to this.
                                      >
                                      > "Why is that? From an inconstruable beginning comes transmigration. A beginning point is not evident, though beings hindered by ignorance and fettered by craving are transmigrating & wandering on. Long have you thus experienced stress, experienced pain, experienced loss, swelling the cemeteries — enough to become disenchanted with all fabricated things, enough to become dispassionate, enough to be released.">
                                      <...>
                                    • ksheri3
                                      INTERESTING ASPECT: TRANSMIGRATION being generated by IGNORANCE! You know, this takes the entire mystic persona away from the concept TRANSMIGRATION when it is
                                      Message 18 of 26 , Sep 8, 2009
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                                        INTERESTING ASPECT:

                                        TRANSMIGRATION being generated by IGNORANCE!

                                        You know, this takes the entire mystic persona away from the concept TRANSMIGRATION when it is posed as a RESULTANT PHENOMENA of IGNORANCE.

                                        Wow, think of the possibilities!

                                        I have been working the Kaballah now for more than 25 years, almost 30 years, and WOW, DO YOU REALIZE WHAT THIS DOES TO THE JEWISH CONCEPT OF "REPAIRING THE FACE OF GOD", WHEN THE CONCEPT OF TRANSMIGRATION IS APPLIED IN A SUBORDINATE CONTEXT TO IGNORANCE?

                                        YOU ARE SPLENDID! YOU WORK WELL WITH ME AND WHERE I AM AT! THANK YOU!

                                        I AM RIGHT WITH THIS SUTTA AT THIS SECOND AND HAVE BEEN AT THIS SUTTA FOR THE LAST FEW DAYS. Don't worry, I'm working on it and I'm workin on a lot of other things as well.

                                        toodles,
                                        colette





                                        --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "szmicio" <szmicio@...> wrote:
                                        >
                                        > Dear Colette and Scott
                                        >
                                        > > Regarding the sixth question:
                                        > >
                                        > > c: "WHICH CAME FIRST, THE CHICKEN OR THE EGG, THE CRIME OR THE POLICE OFFICER, GOOD OR EVIL?"
                                        > >
                                        > > Scott: I don't think there is a beginning to DELUSION.
                                        >
                                        > L: Well, the Blessed One also said about the begining of transmigration:
                                        >
                                        > <Just as a stick thrown up in the air lands sometimes on its base, sometimes on its side, sometimes on its tip; in the same way, beings hindered by ignorance and fettered by craving, transmigrating & wandering on, sometimes go from this world to another world, sometimes come from another world to this.
                                        >
                                        > "Why is that? From an inconstruable beginning comes transmigration. A beginning point is not evident, though beings hindered by ignorance and fettered by craving are transmigrating & wandering on. Long have you thus experienced stress, experienced pain, experienced loss, swelling the cemeteries — enough to become disenchanted with all fabricated things, enough to become dispassionate, enough to be released.">
                                        >
                                        > The whole Danda Sutta:
                                        > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn15/sn15.009.than.html
                                        <...>
                                      • ksheri3
                                        Hi Scott, Who, me, have to stand in line to file a GRIEVANCE through such an outdated organization as the Federal Bureaugh of Investigations, FBI. My word? I
                                        Message 19 of 26 , Sep 9, 2009
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                                          Hi Scott,

                                          Who, me, have to stand in line to file a GRIEVANCE through such an outdated organization as the Federal Bureaugh of Investigations, FBI. My word? I speak with the Talkin' Heads: What Have you done? Pishaw, that was one of my best PARLEY'S when I was the youngest of the young, mearly 20 years old and so on, back in the early 1980s, AND I was hitch-hiking across the states due to the fact that I had entered a very exclusive club/gang/organization/whatever and I had no 'sponsor', no previous accredation upon which these robots could justify my presence, and so, they saw me then as they see me now, as a virus or an invading pestillence which they must exterminate as a means of maintaining their integrity and the illusion of their superiority.

                                          Below, what you wrote:

                                          How on earth could you speak of such things and speak of such things in a Theravadan forum? Everything you said is simply put in the MAZE which is called MADHYAMIKA OR MADHYAMAKA. You speak so easily of Shunyata that I can only consider that you are well versed in such elementary concepts.

                                          ROFL

                                          <....>

                                          GOOD TO HEAR FROM YOU!

                                          let me go through the other messages you left me.

                                          toodles,
                                          colette






                                          --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "scottduncan2" <scduncan@...> wrote:
                                          >
                                          > Dear colette,
                                          >
                                          > Regarding these questions (one at a time):
                                          >
                                          > c: "What makes something or/and someone FORBIDEN?"
                                          >
                                          > Scott: Gradual Sayings The Book of Nines v (5) The Powers:
                                          >
                                          > "...And what, monks, is the power of wisdom?
                                          > Such conditions as are bad and reckoned so; such as are good and reckoned so; such as are blameworthy and are reckoned so; such as are dark and reckoned so; such as are bright and reckoned so; such as are not to be sought after and reckoned so; such as are to be sought after and reckoned so; such as are not truly Ariyan and reckoned so; such as are truly Ariyan and reckoned so - all these things are clearly seen and by wisdom examined. And this, monks, is called the power of wisdom..."
                                          >
                                          > Scott: "Things and people."
                                          > "Wholesome and unwholesome."
                                          <...>
                                        • ksheri3
                                          Scott, darn, you went so well through the post but at the end you had to commit yourself to CRAVING: I still seem to want to live THUS Death does not equal
                                          Message 20 of 26 , Sep 9, 2009
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                                            Scott,

                                            darn, you went so well through the post but at the end you had to commit yourself to CRAVING:

                                            " I still seem to want to live "

                                            THUS

                                            Death does not equal Life. You are stuck in that damned Western philosophy of a Heaven and a Hell.

                                            "IMAGINE there's no heaven. I wonder if you can." John Lennon

                                            let go of that damned VALUE STRUCTURE and the only vindication that RUPA actually exists. RUPA HAS NO SVABHAVA. RUPA HAS NO ULTIMATE TRUTH. LET IT GO.

                                            NOW THAT'S A STRETCH AND WHAT A FEET OF DARING DO? No? It makes ya ponder that Swami that Robert Anton Wilson spoke of, on his website, The Guns & Dope Party, a few years ago, who developed an amulet to stop bullets and when he tested his amulet he died.

                                            That'll teach ya, no?

                                            Goodn to hear from you!

                                            Further on we go.

                                            toodles,
                                            colette


                                            --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "scottduncan2" <scduncan@...> wrote:
                                            >
                                            > Dear colette,
                                            >
                                            > Regarding question number two:
                                            >
                                            > c: "IS IT WRONG TO NOT DESIRE THAT A KNIFE CUT YOUR THROAT?"
                                            >
                                            > Scott: Death and Craving, of course. Why? Death is easy 'THAT A KNIFE CUT YOUR THROAT' = Death. Craving takes a bit of a stretch. 'IS IT WRONG TO NOT DESIRE' = Is it right to desire. The double negative. And desire is craving. And craving leads to more of the same.
                                            >
                                            > So, is it wrong to wish to avoid death? Or, is it right to desire death?
                                            >
                                            > Gradual Sayings The Book of Fives ix (69) Disgust
                                            >
                                            > "Monks, these five things; when made become, made an increase in lead to complete disgust, dispassion, ending, calm, knowledge, enlightenment and to Nibbaana. What five? Monks, herein a monk abides in perceiving the foulness of the body; is conscious of the cloying of food; is conscious of distaste as to the world; perceives impermanence in all compounded things; and the thought of death is by him inwardly and well established..."
                                            >
                                            > Scott: Neither seeking nor fleeing from death. I still seem to want to live and would rather that the DETRACTORS and NAYSAYERS all go to hell (or at least just leave me alone) so maybe we're in the SAME BOAT.
                                            <...>
                                          • ksheri3
                                            Scott, ah, you speak of the Bourgeoisa family where Lucria Borgeosia had the pleasure of sleeping with her daddy and the Pope or is it that drug dealer named
                                            Message 21 of 26 , Sep 9, 2009
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                                              Scott, ah, you speak of the Bourgeoisa family where Lucria Borgeosia had the pleasure of sleeping with her daddy and the Pope or is it that drug dealer named Pop-E that the Taliban currently farm and parent over?


                                              What child in American middle class suburbia does not dream of IMMORALITY AND IMMORAL ACTS each and every night? AFterall, when they wake up and are sent to the programming schedule at the manufacturing facility the CORPORATION DICTATES TO THEM WHAT MORALITY IS AND WHAT MORALITY IS NOT so they have no worry about what they dream, no?

                                              toodles,
                                              colette



                                              --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "scottduncan2" <scduncan@...> wrote:
                                              >
                                              > Dear colette,
                                              >
                                              > Regarding the third question:
                                              >
                                              > c: "IS IT WRONG TO NOT GO TO BED DREAMING OF BEING MURDERED IN YOUR SLEAP?"
                                              >
                                              > Scott: Ah, a corollary. FEAR. RAGE. The double negative. Thoughts in the night. MN 54, 19, To Potaliya:
                                              >
                                              > "Householder, suppose a man dreamt about lovely parks, lovely groves, lovely meadows, and lovely lakes, and on waking he saw nothing of it. So too, householder, a noble disciple considers thus: 'Sensual pleasures have been compared to a dream by the Blessed One; they provide much suffering and much despair, while the danger in them is great..."
                                              >
                                              > Scott: Is it right to dream of angels granting IMMORTALITY?
                                              >
                                              > Sincerely,
                                              >
                                              > Scott.
                                              >
                                            • scottduncan2
                                              Dear colette, Regarding: c: ...How on earth could you speak of such things and speak of such things in a Theravadan forum? Everything you said is simply put
                                              Message 22 of 26 , Sep 11, 2009
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                                                Dear colette,

                                                Regarding:

                                                c: "...How on earth could you speak of such things and speak of such things in a Theravadan forum? Everything you said is simply put in the MAZE which is called MADHYAMIKA OR MADHYAMAKA. You speak so easily of Shunyata that I can only consider that you are well versed in such elementary concepts."

                                                Scott: I don't think I'm well-versed in Shunyata, although I often think about anatta. I keep experimenting too, seeing if maybe I can control this or that. I don't seem to be able to, although sometimes I make a plan and it seems to turn out. I mean, lots of random things always happen.

                                                c: "darn, you went so well through the post but at the end you had to commit yourself to CRAVING:

                                                ' I still seem to want to live '"

                                                Scott: Not a deliberate commitment, just where I'm at. I can't really say that I'm alive because I want to be. I guess I could take my life but then we'd have to start splitting hairs.

                                                c: "Death does not equal Life. You are stuck in that damned Western philosophy of a Heaven and a Hell. 'IMAGINE there's no heaven. I wonder if you can.' John Lennon let go of that damned VALUE STRUCTURE and the only vindication that RUPA actually exists. RUPA HAS NO SVABHAVA. RUPA HAS NO ULTIMATE TRUTH. LET IT GO."

                                                Scott: I think we understand the notions of 'existence' and 'characteristic' differently.

                                                c: "Scott, ah, you speak of the Bourgeoisa family...What child in American middle class suburbia does not dream of IMMORALITY AND IMMORAL ACTS each and every night? AFterall, when they wake up and are sent to the programming schedule at the manufacturing facility the CORPORATION DICTATES TO THEM WHAT MORALITY IS AND WHAT MORALITY IS NOT so they have no worry about what they dream, no?"

                                                Scott:

                                                "...Welcome my son
                                                Welcome to the machine
                                                What did you dream?
                                                It's alright we told you what to dream..." Pink Floyd, The Machine.

                                                Sincerely,

                                                Scott.
                                              • szmicio
                                                Dear colette, I,ve got some second-hand story. I dont remember it now, because it was long ago since I ve heard it. So forgive me if i change something.
                                                Message 23 of 26 , Sep 11, 2009
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                                                  Dear colette,

                                                  I,ve got some second-hand story.
                                                  I dont remember it now, because it was long ago since I've heard it. So forgive me if i change something.

                                                  <The Buddha was sitting on the bank of a river. There was a group of people who where learning how to walk on water(on the surface, some kind of practice in ancient India??). Ones were beginners, they made one step and immediately fall down into the water, some were more advenced and made few more steps and then fall into the water, and some who was practicing for 40-ty years, were almost perfect. They walked on water without difficulties. They knew that Buddha is nearby, so they came to him. And asked him a question if he can walk on water. Buddha smiled and answered:
                                                  "Isnt it better to spend this time on making a friendship with the closest ferryman?">

                                                  Of course maybe I made it up myself, i am not sure now. It was long ago when i heard this story.
                                                  Buddha proposed to spend this time on not learnig how to walk on water but cultivate a friendship. Isnt it a wonderful story?
                                                  I think that only right understanding is the thing that really matters. All metaphisic is just a border.
                                                  Those are just few words from me, colette. If you dont like them that's OK.

                                                  My best wishes
                                                  Lukas





                                                  > Great CAPTURE of the conflicting realities: How does a "transmigration" even have a potential of existing from NOTHING. You got the thought! Meditate on it!
                                                  >
                                                  > Now this is my bias and predjudice but doesn't the meditation lead directly to YOGACHARA? I fully admit that it is more than possible for the medittation to lead to other outcomes but, to me, in my pair of shoes, it has always led me to the realization that there is a MIND-ONLY SCHOOL OF REALITY and that this school, this hallucination, is THE ONLY REASON FOR REALITY. What better of a school other than the Yogachara, IS THERE, that can relate and speak to me from my upbringing of excessive use of LSD, and mushrooms, etc? I am dealing with this unfathomable reality that exists where THE MIND is the "creator deity" and I've found that Karma is nothing more THAN, POTENTIALLY, than just an electrical connection between the individual's MIND and it's electrical activity which manifested this or that EMOTION but those exact same specific characteristics probalby existed many times before and many centuries before the single practictioner had them; therefore it is not the practictioner's karma, it is any person's karma, YET THAT PREVIOUSLY MANIFESTED KARMA IS OUT THERE, SOMEWHERE, IN THE ETHOS OR LOGOS OR WHERE EVER, and it's just waiting for a simlar connection to come along where it can get rid of it's force i.e. LIGHTNING.
                                                  >
                                                  > I look forward to returning to the DSG here and catching up over the few weeks that I've been "honing my bone" or sharpening my sword. ;) lol
                                                  > The post you gave me is OF INTEREST! and I figure that as I come down from this "exhaltation" or "bliss" I'll be working on that.
                                                  >
                                                  > HOLD IT!
                                                  >
                                                  > > The ignorance is the cause of transmigration and in the patticcasamupada it's more clear. The transmigration is also only the moment of arising and falling away.
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  > colette: I don't know how you can actually say what the or any "transmigration" is and where it came from, but I am open to discovery and to enlighten myself to THAT WHICH I ALREADY KNOW AND ACCEPT AS MY IGNORANCE. Maybe by reading the sutta, then I'll be able to better understand your position here. I shy away from taking such an explicit stand as defining where the 'transmigration' came from and what the 'transmigration' is, SINCE I HAVE YET TO HAVE HAD THE PLEASURE OF ABIDING IN SUCH A STATE/CONDITION as prescribed here.
                                                  >
                                                  > toodles,
                                                  > colette
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "szmicio" <szmicio@> wrote:
                                                  > >
                                                  > > Dear Colette and Scott
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > Regarding the sixth question:
                                                  > > >
                                                  > > > c: "WHICH CAME FIRST, THE CHICKEN OR THE EGG, THE CRIME OR THE POLICE OFFICER, GOOD OR EVIL?"
                                                  > > >
                                                  > > > Scott: I don't think there is a beginning to DELUSION.
                                                  > >
                                                  > > L: Well, the Blessed One also said about the begining of transmigration:
                                                  > >
                                                  > > <Just as a stick thrown up in the air lands sometimes on its base, sometimes on its side, sometimes on its tip; in the same way, beings hindered by ignorance and fettered by craving, transmigrating & wandering on, sometimes go from this world to another world, sometimes come from another world to this.
                                                  > >
                                                  > > "Why is that? From an inconstruable beginning comes transmigration. A beginning point is not evident, though beings hindered by ignorance and fettered by craving are transmigrating & wandering on. Long have you thus experienced stress, experienced pain, experienced loss, swelling the cemeteries — enough to become disenchanted with all fabricated things, enough to become dispassionate, enough to be released.">
                                                  > <...>
                                                  >
                                                • ksheri3
                                                  Hi Lukas, Yes, you speak rather nicely about a conditional aspect of living, and this is why I make sure to always recognize my colleagues in this matter of
                                                  Message 24 of 26 , Sep 15, 2009
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                                                    Hi Lukas,

                                                    Yes, you speak rather nicely about a "conditional aspect" of living, and this is why I make sure to always recognize my colleagues in this matter of "enlightenment" as being a major factor in what I consider to be "that of enlighetnement", however you seem to be under the illusion that a "friendship" cannot exist without there being the continuous and total agreement in everything and all things which exist i.e. Nama and Rupa. Isn't this, the illusion of the necessity for agreement, isn't that nothing more than part of the ILLUSION which Maya produces for you to partake of? THIS, UNFORTUNATELY, LEEDS ME RIGHT BACK TO THE DOCTRINE WHICH NECESSITITATES THE NEED FOR MEDITATION. I love it, how easily the ancients used the terminology "meditation" at the same time as using the terminology "contemplation" since they are two different and seperate things. I am only now begining to "see" the actual conflict which exists between the two terms and it brings forth such an exquisite view of the actuality of the practice of MEDITATION.
                                                    --------------

                                                    > I think that only right understanding is the thing that really matters. All metaphisic is just a border.


                                                    colette: WRONG WRONG WRONG! What is RIGHT UNDERSTANDING? What is REALITY? What is this thing called, which you label (name & form) as "matters"? <...>

                                                    COME NOW, MY FRIEND, why would you constrain your beliefs to this delusional perspective which you adopted from the teachings of another person, WITHOUT FIRST APPLYING THE PRACTICE? Is the practice "efficacious" or is it neglicent, INERT? <...>Ah, this cognition of the difference between INVOLUNTARY PHYSICAL BEHAVIOR and VOLUNTARY PHYSICAL BEHAVIOR is just scratching the surface: does the dogs tail wag simply out of an EMOTIONAL RESPONSE TO VISUALLY SEEING ME OR HEARING MY VOICE?E Now, since you are far better than I am at repeating words that the Buddha said as if you were a recorder and actually recorder those words when they were spoken, with this as the case, why don't you help me out find the Buddha's words concerning this illusive and transient being called EMOTIONS? And to tie it in with what I was speaking to Scott about, YESTERDAY, WHICH WAS NOT PUT INTO THE GROUP,(albeit, I can easily understand why the group need not hear or read such outlandish conclusions in the Therevadan context), these emotions are real although they are NAMA AND NOT RUPA, I almost made the conclusion that Rupa was EXTERNAL and NAMA WAS/IS INTERNAL but I shy away from that stretch since I am still learning and practicing. I haven't studied the Yogachara philosophy enough to be able to make that leap of faith, yet. Nargaruna and Bavavieka are some WAY OUT THERE PRACTITIONERS. At least they don't give me headaches like Jaq. Derrida gives me when I read them. And that, the resultant headaches I got, is exactly the same as the headaches I got from reading THE ILLUMINATUS TRIOLOGY back in the early 1990s, and damn, I never got to correspond nor question my colleague Mr. R.A.Wilson about his methodology (it took me more than a year to read that single book, THE ILLUMINATUS TRILOGY). You don't know how important to me that is, that I correspond and actually have a relationship with people that study what I love studying and practicing, MAGIK. <...>

                                                    thanks.

                                                    gotta go.

                                                    toodles,
                                                    colette
                                                    --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "szmicio" <szmicio@...> wrote:
                                                    >
                                                    > Dear colette,
                                                    >
                                                    > I,ve got some second-hand story.
                                                    > I dont remember it now, because it was long ago since I've heard it. So forgive me if i change something.
                                                    >
                                                    > <The Buddha was sitting on the bank of a river.
                                                    <...>
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