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47153Re: Beginner to Dhamma Eznir-Sukin #4 B

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  • Sukinder
    Jul 1, 2005
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      Dear Eznir,

      Continuing from the last post:
      ---------------------------------------------
      > Old Sukinder: My point however was to show the danger of lobha and
      moha
      > in taking us the wrong way. In a day, almost never are we on the
      > Middle Path, it is so illusive that we are all the time leaning
      > either on the eternity side or the annihilation side. And it is
      > avijja which puts us there and it is lobha supported by ditthi which
      > can then lead us astray, away from the middle path.
      >
      > Eznir: Exactly! All the more reason why we should choose to cultivate
      > mindfulness and awareness.

      S>
      Only with the arising of panna can the right and wrong way be
      distinguished. The problem is that we take to be sati what is not, and so
      the path of practice then taken is one that is a reflection of such
      misconception.
      ---------------------------------------

      Eznir: It is only then that with directed thought
      > and sustained thought we nurture the conditions for panna to arise.
      > When ever the hindrances that you mentioned above arises one must
      be
      > aware that they have arisen. Only then does panna know that it is a
      > mind with hindrances and how it arose. But why should we know how
      > hindrances arise? So that panna will know the cause & conditions for
      > its arising.

      S>
      Thinking is only as good as the `understanding' behind it, this is why it is
      stressed that panna leads the way. Lobha must appear to sati and
      panna, only then can it be known. We can `think' about it, but this is
      different from satipatthana, whereas if the thinking is seen with
      wisdom, then that would be a moment of right practice.

      Understanding dhamma on the conceptual level is pariyatti; the stress is
      on "understanding" and not "thinking". And understanding correctly, one
      does not then go about engaging in practices involving `self' and control.
      It is when there is thinking about Dhamma without understanding, that
      there arises an idea about `doing'.
      =========================================

      > Sukinder: Not necessary to say, "keep in mind", but dhammas do
      arise
      > all the time and depending on many, many conditions we will be
      > reminded about the moment or we will not.
      >
      > Eznir: It is nesessary. Dhammas do arise all the time and to be
      reminded
      > about the moment or not, does depend on the inclination of our mind.
      > Our minds are never in a blank state, all the time it is involved in
      > some thinking.

      S>
      Reminders are necessary; association with wise friends is one such
      condition for this to happen. And when the mind is inclined towards
      dhamma as against other matters, then reminders come in from many
      directions. However, this can happen with all levels of understandings
      and misunderstandings. So it is one thing to see the value of being
      reminded and have correct intellectual understanding, but another to
      remind oneself constantly about what needs to be done.
      The former can be with the understanding that dhammas are
      conditioned and beyond control, whereas the latter may be with the
      idea of self and control. Again I stress `understanding' as
      against `thinking' about dhamma.
      > =========================================
      >
      > Sukinder: If alobha and vijja arises, well and good, it knows.
      >
      > Eznir: But this "alobha and vijja" do not arise like a flash! They too
      are
      > subjected to the "many, many conditions" you mentioned above.
      These
      > many many conditons are the inclination of the mind that conditons
      > alobha and vijja to arise!

      S>
      Only panna conditions more panna and this cannot be willed. There can
      however be the illusion that one is thinking about dhamma regularly and
      that this is associated with right understanding. If this is the case, then
      in fact one is going the wrong way. Wrong understanding conditions
      wrong practice.
      =========================================

      > Sukinder: But their opposites don't and we could do well with
      > reminders about their being almost perpetually present.
      >
      > Eznir: See how you contradict yourself here; you say, "Not necessary
      to
      > say, "keep in mind"" that dhammas do arise all the time. But when it
      > comes to lobha and avijja you say, "we could do well with reminders
      > about their being almost perpetually present" - that is to *keep in
      > mind*. They too are dhammas that arise all the time?

      S>
      Again, saying, "keep in mind" is different from "understanding" the value
      of being reminded.

      To be continuedÂ….

      Metta,

      Sukinder
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