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124016Re: [dsg] Abhidhamma Studies part 2 - rise and fall of cittas, vibhanga comy

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  • sarah
    May 1, 2012
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      Dear Dieter,

      --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Dieter Moeller" <moellerdieter@...> wrote:

      > S: There is no 'posture' in reality. Whether one is told not change ones posture or not has nothing to do with the understanding of dhammas as dukkha. We think in terms of 'self', 'body' and 'posture' and it is such ignorance the hides the truth of the arising and falling away of dhammas now. What arises and falls away is inherently dukkha.
      >
      >
      > D: no posture in the supermundane reality .. there 'posture' would not make any sense
      ...
      S: It's like the "anatta" discussions you're having with Howard and Rob E - whether there is any understanding or not, whether there is mundane or supramundane wisdom, whether one has ever heard of the Buddha's teachings or not, there are only namas and rupas, there is no table, no person, no posture in reality. Likewise, all dhammas are anatta, regardless of any understanding.
      ...
      > but I suppose we are talking about a different aspect of suffering. ("There are three kinds of suffering: (1) suffering as pain (dukkha-dukkhatÄ�), (2) the suffering inherent in the formations (saṅkhÄ�ra-dukkhatÄ�), (3) the suffering in change (vipariṇÄ�ma-dukkhatÄ�)" (S. XLV, 165; D. 33)."
      ...
      S: Yes, the first kind everyone knows about. We don't need a Buddha to tell us about dukkha-dukkha. The third one is more subtle, but it is the second one, sankhara dukkha which is the Truth of Dukkha - the inherent unsatisfactoriness of all conditioned dhammas, which only a Buddha can teach. Changing or not changing postures will not lead to any insight of dhammas as dukkha in this sense.
      ...

      > S: person, interactions, postures and so on are just ideas, not realities, not dhammas.
      >
      > D: you mean like wheels , axes, etc are not the chariot.. (?)
      ...
      S: A chariot is an idea too, also not a reality, not a dhamma.
      ....

      > S: Even now, the khandhas are impermanent. Citta now is different from citta a moment ago. The same applies to all the other dhammas. Feeling now is different from feeling a moment ago. One moment pleasant, the next moment unpleasant or neutral, on and on.
      >
      >
      > D: its 'content , the dhammas are different , but the function being 'conscious' isn't, is it?
      ...
      S: Each citta arises, is 'conscious' of its object and falls away. I don't know what you mean by "its content'.
      ....

      > > D: well , posturers are at one's command , aren't they?
      > ...
      > S: It's just an illusion that in reality there are postures and that those postures are subject to the command of a Self. In truth, there are just elements, just dhammas, which arise by conditions and fall away by conditions without any Self being able to exercise any power over them.
      >
      > D: think about 'The Self Doer' sutta , Sarah .. postures belong to the mundane reality
      ...
      S: We can read a Self into any sutta, but the truth is that there is no Self, no Doer, no One who can command anything. Postures are concepts - we can say they are sammutti sacca, conventional truth, which is what you mean, I think.
      ....

      > D: we have no disagreement about the necessity to penetrate,to understand the true nature of present dhammas , but we may not neglect that this understanding is supposed to be a mean leading towards disentchantment, dispassion and detachment .
      ...
      S: Yes, disentchantment, dispassion and detachment develop with right understanding. At the moment of understanding, there is detachment, there is dispassion. No need to do anything extra, no one to do anything!

      Metta

      Sarah
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