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118730Re: [dsg] Ayatanas again, to Num

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  • philip
    Oct 14, 2011
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      Hi again all

      The companion post mentionned in the previous one. My dhamma mommies (not Rob E's!!) laid down a double whammy classic combo on the internal and external sense bases:



      > Nina: The classification of ayatanas, sense-fields, is different from the
      > classification of objects (arammana) or elements (dhatus). As to ayatanas,
      > the Buddha teaches here the meeting or association of object, base and the
      > relevant citta that experiences an object. The eyebase is not a subtle rupa,
      > it is a coarse rupa, the senses and the sense objects are coarse rupas. The
      > eyesense is not classified as dhammayatana but as cakkhayatana, the base of
      > the eye. Evenso for the other sensebases. A sense object impinges on the
      > relevant sensebase and thus a sense-cognition arises. This is not
      > theoretical at all. A rupa lasts as long as seventeen moments of citta, when
      > we compare the duration of rupa and citta. We could not count, of course.
      > Thus, visible object that has not fallen away but is still there for several
      > moments, impinges on the eyebase that has not fallen away yet and is still
      > present, and then several cittas of the eye-door process, including
      > seeing-consciousness, experience the visible object. When we consider this
      > we can be amazed that there is such a coincidence of ayatanas, that it is
      > possible to experience an object.
      > Manayatana, as you know, includes all cittas. Dhammayatana includes as you
      > mentioned, cetasikas, subtle rupas and nibbana.
      > You were wondering about dhammarammana and dhammadhatu. These belong to
      > other classifications, not in the context of ayatanas. Classification of
      > arammana: here the Buddha teaches about objects that can be experienced.
      > Dhammarammana : the five sense organs, the subtle rupas, citta, cetasika,
      > nibbana, concepts. These are the objects only experienced through the
      > mind-door. The classification of elements, dhatus, here the Buddha teaches
      > about realities as elements, devoid of self. Dhammadhatu:cetasikas, subtle
      > rupas and nibbana. Citta is not included here, because cittas have been
      > classified separately as different elements (seeing-consciousness-element,
      > etc., mind-element, mano-dhatu, mind-consciousness element,
      > mano-vi~n~naa.na-dhaatu). Concept is not an element, it is not real in the
      > ultimate sense. (See ADL Ch 18).
      > It is helpful to see different subjects of study in their own context. You
      > mentioned mindfulness of the citta of someone else, as an outward object,
      > seeing citta in citta, no matter one's own or someone else's. And then under
      > mental objects, dhammas, seeing the inner and outward ayatanas internally,
      > and externally. Here again we should beware of the different contexts. There
      > are inner and outward ayatanas, in the context of ayatanas. There is
      > awareness of one's own rupa, feeling, citta or dhamma, or those of someone
      > else, and this is another context, the context of the objects of
      > mindfulness.
      > Now coming back to awareness of someone else's citta: this is not restricted
      > to the special super power of penetrationg someone else's mind. When we
      > notice someone else's outbreak of anger, the angry voice, this can bring us
      > back to the reality appearing at the present moment: there can be awareness
      > of our thinking of his citta as merely a conditioned nama, or of sound, as
      > only a conditioned element. This helps us to become an understanding person,
      > to be patient. As I understood from A. Sujin's explanations, anything that
      > appears, even the citta or feeling of someone else can bring us back to the
      > present reality. The Commentary does not explain about this, but I do not
      > know the subcommentary. I am glad to hear about additional explanations of
      > this rather difficult point. Could perhaps your aunt ask A. Sujin again, if
      > there is an opportunity?
      > I hope this clarifies a few of your points.
      > I am reading now the co. to the Sivaka Sutta on kamma and vipaka, and I am
      > so surprised at what I am reading here. We have to place this sutta in the
      > context of the 108 kinds of feelings, as one can see. Otherwise we shall not
      > understand this sutta. I come back later to the Sutta. I must run now!! My
      > father will come (101 years old) and I have to play Telemann on the tenor
      > recorder.
      > Best wishes,
      > Nina.
      >
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