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101027Re: [dsg] Analytical study of 5 Khandhas, 12 bases & 18 elements

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  • sarah abbott
    Oct 2, 2009
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      Hi Alex,

      Thx for responding. What a treat to discuss dhatus and ayatanas with you:-)
      ...

      --- On Thu, 1/10/09, truth_aerator <truth_aerator@...> wrote:
      > >a: 18 Elements (dhatu): Above 12 bases + 6 consciousness.
      > ....
      > S: We can't put it like that. The 12 bases consist of the 18 elements. There is no consciousness apart from those included in manayatana. [see 'Ayatanas' in U.P.]
      > ....

      A:>Thank you for that point. Though I don't think that I made an error.

      >Both ayatana & 18 dhatu have dhamma-ayatana/ dhatu, but 18 dhatu have more specific analysis of 6 consciousness (which fit in dhamma ayatana).
      ...
      S: Let's be clear on this:
      1. Manayatana includes ALL cittas, all consciousness, so there are no other kinds of consciousness outside manayatana and therefore the 12 bases.

      2. Dhammayatana includes all cetasikas, subtle rupas and nibbana. There are no cittas, no kinds of consciousnes "which fit in dhamma ayatana".

      3. When defining the elements by way of 18 dhatu, there are several dhatus referring to cittas, i.e.: cakkhu-vinnana dhatu, sota-vinnana, ghana-v, jivha-v, kaya-v, mano-dhatu (inc. panca-dvaravajjana citta, 2 sampaticchana cittas, and mano-vinnana dhatu (inc. all other cittas). These are collectively referred to as vinnana-dhatu.

      Pls let me know if this is not clear or if you still disagree. I know it's a tricky area.

      How do you see the present moment practice with regard to dhatus and ayatanas?
      ....

      > >Pleasant, unpleasant or neutral eye-sensation (cakkhu-vedana) is mental reality that is sensation aggregate, cognizable base and eye-consciousness element.
      > ...
      > S: You mean the vedana is dhamma-dhatu surely? Not eye-consciousness element.
      > ...
      > S: Same again. any vedana is dhamma-dhatu. It is not ear-consciousness.
      > Same for all the others.
      > ...

      First, by sensation I mean vedana. I don't like word "feeling" in most cases.
      ...
      S: OK, let's just stick to vedana. The problem with "sensation" is that people usually associate it with what is experienced through the body-sense, rather than mental feelings, wouldn't you agree?
      ...
      >2nd) The suttas do talk that 6 organs can experience sukha/dukkha sensations. That is why there is such classification of 18 sensations (6x3) and so on.
      ...
      S: Let's be clear that:

      1. All vedana, whether pleasant, unpleasant or neutral, whether bodily or mental, are all cetasikas, mental factors and therefore all included in dhammayatana or dhamma dhatu.

      2.I don't think the suttas say that the sense-bases, such as eye-sense, experience anything. They are rupas. Rupas cannot experience objects.

      3. Sukha/dukkha refer to bodily pleasant and unpleasant feelings. This means that they arise with the citta, body-consciousness which experiences tangible object, i.e temperature, solidity or motion.

      4. Vedana are classified in many different ways. For example, sometimes they are classified as sixfold, referring to the vedana which arise through the 6 doors. Sometimes threefold, referring to pleasant, unpleasant and neutral, sometimes 18, referring to the sixfold, past, future and present. However they are classified, they are always referring to the (mental) cetasika which accompanies every single citta.
      ...

      >I know that some say that eye can experience only neutral sensations, or something like that. Suttas say otherwise.
      ...
      S: The texts say nothing like that. The eye cannot experience anything. It is eye consciousness which experiences visible object. This citta is always accompanied by neutral feeling. I've never seen a sutta say what you suggest above;-)
      ...
      >But even if we say that only body & mind can experience pleasant/unpleasant /neutral
      ...
      S: You've got this mixed up, Alex. See above and let me know if it's still not clear. I think these are important points and I'm glad you've raised them. It's impossible to understand namas and rupas appearing now if we have a confused idea about them.
      ...
      >- why isn't eye/ear/nose/ tongue BODY or related to mind? They are! And because of this they can experience 3 types of sensations that body/mind can.
      ...
      S: Sorry, but this is flawed....

      How can eye-sense experience anything? Or if you mean seeing consciousness, how can it experience anything other than visible object?

      I look forward to further discussion on these points.

      Metta

      Sarah
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