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Re: [dglist] Re:Putting a Human Spin on Things

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  • Joe Crazyperson
    I think this is all a good topic. They are defending humanity but by doing so they must stiffle what is inherently human. Think of the cancer that is Hastur.
    Message 1 of 27 , Sep 30, 2008
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      I think this is all a good topic. They are 'defending humanity' but by doing
      so they must stiffle what is inherently human. Think of the cancer that is
      Hastur. The Yellow King exists and can corrupt because it uses what is so
      human, the mad artists, inspirations, and the muse become guidebooks to the
      end times. They must be stopped. Entarte Kunst is the word Nazis used to
      describe such artwork and they supressed it, to the point of silencing
      artists, permanently.

      The lust of the followers of Shub Niggurath is another human aspect that
      must be supressed...
      The desire for power and knowledge is granted by Nyarlathotep and Yog
      Sothoth...again, these are very human desires which again must be regulated
      in order to delay our inevitable destruction...

      On Tue, Sep 30, 2008 at 10:12 AM, George H. <thealighierian@...>wrote:

      > Thank you for this post. I've been attempting to drill the "Delta Green are
      > not the good guys, they are the necessary guys" idea into the head of one of
      > my players for nearly a year now and he has endlessly claimed that my view
      > of Delta Green and all horror games is corrupted by my own semi-nihilistic
      > worldview. As this post was effectively from the horse's mouth, he's come
      > around to a less "Splinter Cell" mentality.
      >
      > Thanks again :)
      >
      > -George
      >
      >
      >
      > > There is a difference between malevolence and ruthlessness. Delta
      >
      > > Green does not work against humanity, and should basically strive to
      >
      > > do the right thing. It's more about self-sacrifice than anything
      >
      > >else.
      >
      >
      >
      > Gotta say, I think this is an extremely naive way of looking at
      >
      > things. Working against humans � for the most part � is EXACTLY what
      >
      > DG does. The elements of the mythos most encountered are human, after
      >
      > all. Just like cops, just like Feds, things get...messy and mixed up
      >
      > when you effectively remove people from circulation for a living.
      >
      >
      >
      > > I mean... why fight for survival if humanity and it's protectors
      >
      > don't
      >
      > > deserve to survive? The organization should strive to create and
      >
      > > maintain some meaning and motivation to the desperate struggle.
      >
      >
      >
      > We don't deserve to survive anyway IMO. Your inserting (haha) some
      >
      > sort of morality into something relentless, pointless and cruel. Life
      >
      > on earth is the after-wash of aliens. Humanity is a dead-end mistake
      >
      > which will be rectified. Everything. All human action, means nothing.
      >
      > Coming to grips with that will rend even the most resilient mind.
      >
      >
      >
      > The "organization" is held together with spit and bailing wire. There
      >
      > is no handbook. There are no rules. There's only "get things done".
      >
      > And I think you're missing the point of "desperate" struggle. If it
      >
      > was so desperate, wouldn't they do anything necessary?
      >
      >
      >
      > > Scorched Earth tactics like shooting babies in the head should be
      >
      > kept
      >
      > > to a minimum (unless they're Deep One Hybrids; you get Sanity Awards
      >
      > > for killing Deep One Hybrids - even if they're babies).
      >
      >
      >
      > Again. Morality. It's the Brother's Karamazov all over again. If you
      >
      > had to kill the baby to keep everything spinning one more day, would
      >
      > you? Alyosha wouldn't. You better damn well bet A-Cell would.
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >
      >
      > ------------------------------------
      >
      > The Delta Green Mailing List:
      > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dglist
      >
      > Yahoo! Groups Links
      >
      >
      >
      >


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    • Silvio Herrera
      On Tue, Sep 30, 2008 at 10:26 PM, Joe Crazyperson
      Message 2 of 27 , Oct 1, 2008
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        On Tue, Sep 30, 2008 at 10:26 PM, Joe Crazyperson <joe.crazyperson@...
        > wrote:

        > I think this is all a good topic. They are 'defending humanity' but by
        > doing
        > so they must stiffle what is inherently human. Think of the cancer that is
        > Hastur. The Yellow King exists and can corrupt because it uses what is so
        > human, the mad artists, inspirations, and the muse become guidebooks to the
        > end times. They must be stopped. Entarte Kunst is the word Nazis used to
        > describe such artwork and they supressed it, to the point of silencing
        > artists, permanently.
        >
        > The lust of the followers of Shub Niggurath is another human aspect that
        > must be supressed...
        > The desire for power and knowledge is granted by Nyarlathotep and Yog
        > Sothoth...again, these are very human desires which again must be regulated
        > in order to delay our inevitable destruction...


        And in so doing, you effectively destroy all that makes you human and
        fullfil the conditions of you own destruction. There simply is no way out,
        whether you embrace or deny the Mythos. Ultimately, what will destroy us
        will not be the Mythos, it will be our own natures, or the part of us that
        is the Mythos; we are corrupted and doomed from the beginning of our
        existence. In a way it is like the doctrine of original sin, only without
        anybody to save you (even the "enlightenment" offered by Yog-Sothoth will
        strip you of your humanity and make you something else).


        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Simon Brake
        ... I ve wondered about that happy ending before. Does Carter get stripped of his humanity in Through the Gates... because that is the way of Yog Sothoth, or
        Message 3 of 27 , Oct 1, 2008
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          --- On Wed, 1/10/08, Silvio Herrera <sherreragea@...> wrote:
          >Ultimately, what will destroy us
          >will not be the Mythos, it will be our own natures, or the part of us that

          >is the Mythos; we are corrupted and doomed from the beginning of our
          >existence. In a way it is like the doctrine of original sin, only without
          >anybody to save you (even the "enlightenment" offered by Yog-Sothoth will
          >strip you of your humanity and make you something else).


          I've wondered about that 'happy ending' before. Does Carter get stripped of his humanity in Through the Gates... because that is the way of Yog Sothoth, or simply because Carter leaps before he looks? Arguably though that's human nature at work too.
          Then again, life after death in the Dreamlands seems to be the closest to a happy ending in the mythos. Or getting there once you've metamorphosised into a ghoul. Maybe there's a fine line between embracing the reality of the mythos and devoting yourself whole-heartedly to the mythos, achieved only by visionaries and immortal sorcerers, that actually grants you a 'happy ending'. Maybe individuals would do better to enlighten themselves, for good or bad, than save the whole of humanity. Sure, that's human nature at work again, but once you've established there's no hope for the human race it's a get-out-clause, the lesser of two evils. Sort of.

          Simon


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        • Graham Kinniburgh
          ... We don t deserve to survive anyway IMO. Your inserting (haha) some sort of morality into something relentless, pointless and cruel. Life on earth is the
          Message 4 of 27 , Oct 1, 2008
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            --- In dglist@yahoogroups.com, Dennis Detwiller <drgonzo@...> wrote:

            >
            > > I mean... why fight for survival if humanity and it's protectors
            > don't
            > > deserve to survive? The organization should strive to create and
            > > maintain some meaning and motivation to the desperate struggle.

            We don't deserve to survive anyway IMO. Your inserting (haha) some
            sort of morality into something relentless, pointless and cruel. Life
            on earth is the after-wash of aliens. Humanity is a dead-end mistake
            which will be rectified. Everything. All human action, means nothing.
            Coming to grips with that will rend even the most resilient mind.


            Dennis - I've mostly agreed with what you've said , but am at odds
            with this here. What you've written here about life/humanity may very
            well be true from the objective/ Lovecraftian pov, but surely there
            will be a differing 'world view' held by the agents of Delta Green ?
            I'd imagine law enforcement types especially must at least start out
            with a 'positive' view that they are enforcing something worthwhile
            (the laws aimed at maintaining society - which presumably is worth
            preserving). Indeed DG would seem to exploit this belief with its
            stated aims of 'preserving the US and its citizens from paranormal
            threats').

            It subsequently follows that DG agents must have some kind of notion
            about preserving the greater good of humanity. It's when they are
            asked to balance these notions with the desperate necesseties of
            fighting the mythos that the really interesting questions (and
            hopefully roleplaying) arise. I agree that A-Cell are bastards (some
            of my players hate them alrwady and the rest are getting there !) but
            in my view they are bastards in the way that a WW2 general is a
            bastard - making the really tough calls to get the job done. To that
            end, A-Cell must be able to appeal to something in the agents to get
            them out in the field for that one last op (again) and while there
            will be a case for occassionally showing their 'bastard face',
            repeatedly and unwaveringly doing so might eventually be counter
            productive.

            Appealing to patriotism and the survival instinct to 'rage against
            the dying of the light' must surely be part of A-Cell's
            methodology ?
          • Dennis Detwiller
            Appealing to patriotism and the survival instinct to rage against the dying of the light must surely be part of A-Cell s methodology ? A-Cell doesn t
            Message 5 of 27 , Oct 1, 2008
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              "Appealing to patriotism and the survival instinct to 'rage against
              the dying of the light' must surely be part of A-Cell's
              methodology ? "

              A-Cell doesn't recruit. Agents recruit, usually as needed, and they
              tell anyone anything they need to get them to go along. This also
              comes down to the omniscience I see in many people's portrayal of A-
              Cell. They aren't in-the-know of the details of every field-op going on.

              Have you met a lot of upbeat law enforcement professionals who are
              convinced of humanity's goodness? I have a family full of law
              enforcement people and they are the most jaded, cynical bunch you can
              imagine. Now imagine they were fighting something inhuman,
              indestructible and which made eliminating crime, drugs, poverty and
              violence look � in comparison � like taking out the trash. How upbeat
              would they be? Could they be?

              There's a reason suicide strikes psychiatrists and law enforcement
              more than other professions; those two groups get a stark and
              unrelenting peek into what humanity means. Imagine you did all that
              but also KNEW humanity was a blip, a dead end.

              How well would you sleep at night?

              DENNISDETWILLER: Art, Games, Writing | Detwiller Design - Arc Dream -
              [PROTOTYPE]
              contact | drgonzo@... - 778.995.1458 | aim - drgonzo | msn -
              doctorgonzo123

              On 1-Oct-08, at 5:22 AM, Graham Kinniburgh wrote:

              > --- In dglist@yahoogroups.com, Dennis Detwiller <drgonzo@...> wrote:
              >
              > >
              > > > I mean... why fight for survival if humanity and it's protectors
              > > don't
              > > > deserve to survive? The organization should strive to create and
              > > > maintain some meaning and motivation to the desperate struggle.
              >
              > We don't deserve to survive anyway IMO. Your inserting (haha) some
              > sort of morality into something relentless, pointless and cruel. Life
              > on earth is the after-wash of aliens. Humanity is a dead-end mistake
              > which will be rectified. Everything. All human action, means nothing.
              > Coming to grips with that will rend even the most resilient mind.
              >
              > Dennis - I've mostly agreed with what you've said , but am at odds
              > with this here. What you've written here about life/humanity may very
              > well be true from the objective/ Lovecraftian pov, but surely there
              > will be a differing 'world view' held by the agents of Delta Green ?
              > I'd imagine law enforcement types especially must at least start out
              > with a 'positive' view that they are enforcing something worthwhile
              > (the laws aimed at maintaining society - which presumably is worth
              > preserving). Indeed DG would seem to exploit this belief with its
              > stated aims of 'preserving the US and its citizens from paranormal
              > threats').
              >
              > It subsequently follows that DG agents must have some kind of notion
              > about preserving the greater good of humanity. It's when they are
              > asked to balance these notions with the desperate necesseties of
              > fighting the mythos that the really interesting questions (and
              > hopefully roleplaying) arise. I agree that A-Cell are bastards (some
              > of my players hate them alrwady and the rest are getting there !) but
              > in my view they are bastards in the way that a WW2 general is a
              > bastard - making the really tough calls to get the job done. To that
              > end, A-Cell must be able to appeal to something in the agents to get
              > them out in the field for that one last op (again) and while there
              > will be a case for occassionally showing their 'bastard face',
              > repeatedly and unwaveringly doing so might eventually be counter
              > productive.
              >
              > Appealing to patriotism and the survival instinct to 'rage against
              > the dying of the light' must surely be part of A-Cell's
              > methodology ?
              >
              >
              >



              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Graham Kinniburgh
              ... can ... and ... upbeat ... that ... Ok - assume an agent eventually achieves this insight . The questions are: a) what are they thinking before they get
              Message 6 of 27 , Oct 1, 2008
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                --- In dglist@yahoogroups.com, Dennis Detwiller <drgonzo@...> wrote:
                >
                > Have you met a lot of upbeat law enforcement professionals who are
                > convinced of humanity's goodness? I have a family full of law
                > enforcement people and they are the most jaded, cynical bunch you
                can
                > imagine. Now imagine they were fighting something inhuman,
                > indestructible and which made eliminating crime, drugs, poverty
                and
                > violence look — in comparison — like taking out the trash. How
                upbeat
                > would they be? Could they be?
                >
                > There's a reason suicide strikes psychiatrists and law enforcement
                > more than other professions; those two groups get a stark and
                > unrelenting peek into what humanity means. Imagine you did all
                that
                > but also KNEW humanity was a blip, a dead end.
                >
                > How well would you sleep at night?


                Ok - assume an agent eventually achieves this 'insight'. The
                questions are:

                a) what are they thinking before they get there ? Presumably they
                don't achieve this realisation overnight, but through accumulated
                exposure to operas in which they are somehow motivated to take part;
                and

                b) What do they do when the penny drops ? 9mm retirement plan ? What
                makes them keep fighting if they think it all so pointless ?
              • Dennis Detwiller
                ... This is as unique as the individual Agent. Were they approached as if DG was secret and on the up-and-up? Do they even KNOW the words Delta Green? For
                Message 7 of 27 , Oct 1, 2008
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                  > a) what are they thinking before they get there ? Presumably they
                  > don't achieve this realisation overnight, but through accumulated
                  > exposure to operas in which they are somehow motivated to take part;
                  > and

                  This is as unique as the individual Agent. Were they approached as if
                  DG was secret and on the up-and-up? Do they even KNOW the words Delta
                  Green?
                  For most, I assume the main contributing factor are saving their own
                  ass/being confronted with something wholly not of this earth. These
                  are usually the key to the front door. What they're told on the
                  threshold by those inside is not codified. It's tailored on the fly.

                  > b) What do they do when the penny drops ? 9mm retirement plan ? What
                  > makes them keep fighting if they think it all so pointless ?


                  Some certainly turn to suicide. The bottle. Some keep fighting despite
                  finding out the horrible truth. Some insert fake explanations like
                  religion or other delusions to fill the gaps (no offense meant, this
                  is Lovecraft's world we're speaking of here).

                  The question is not why DG agents keep fighting if they think it's all
                  pointless, it's "why does anyone do anything because it is all
                  pointless". Because in Lovecraft's world, no matter how you might like
                  to play your game in the end, it's just that -- pointless.

                  DENNISDETWILLER: Art, Games, Writing | Detwiller Design - Arc Dream -
                  [PROTOTYPE]
                  contact | drgonzo@... - 778.995.1458 | aim - drgonzo | msn -
                  doctorgonzo123

                  On 1-Oct-08, at 7:17 AM, Graham Kinniburgh wrote:

                  > --- In dglist@yahoogroups.com, Dennis Detwiller <drgonzo@...> wrote:
                  > >
                  > > Have you met a lot of upbeat law enforcement professionals who are
                  > > convinced of humanity's goodness? I have a family full of law
                  > > enforcement people and they are the most jaded, cynical bunch you
                  > can
                  > > imagine. Now imagine they were fighting something inhuman,
                  > > indestructible and which made eliminating crime, drugs, poverty
                  > and
                  > > violence look � in comparison � like taking out the trash. How
                  > upbeat
                  > > would they be? Could they be?
                  > >
                  > > There's a reason suicide strikes psychiatrists and law enforcement
                  > > more than other professions; those two groups get a stark and
                  > > unrelenting peek into what humanity means. Imagine you did all
                  > that
                  > > but also KNEW humanity was a blip, a dead end.
                  > >
                  > > How well would you sleep at night?
                  >
                  > Ok - assume an agent eventually achieves this 'insight'. The
                  > questions are:
                  >
                  > a) what are they thinking before they get there ? Presumably they
                  > don't achieve this realisation overnight, but through accumulated
                  > exposure to operas in which they are somehow motivated to take part;
                  > and
                  >
                  > b) What do they do when the penny drops ? 9mm retirement plan ? What
                  > makes them keep fighting if they think it all so pointless ?
                  >
                  >
                  >



                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • SGlancy12@aol.com
                  ... Because doing nothing makes for a really boring role playing game? A. Scott Glancy, President TCCorp, dba Pagan Publishing ************** Looking for
                  Message 8 of 27 , Oct 1, 2008
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                    In a message dated 10/1/08 8:01:29 AM, drgonzo@... writes:

                    > The question is not why DG agents keep fighting if they think it's all 
                    > pointless, it's "why does anyone do anything because it is all 
                    > pointless". Because in Lovecraft's world, no matter how you might like 
                    > to play your game in the end, it's just that -- pointless.
                    >

                    Because doing nothing makes for a really boring role playing game?


                    A. Scott Glancy, President TCCorp, dba Pagan Publishing



                    **************
                    Looking for simple solutions to your real-life financial
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                  • Graham Kinniburgh
                    ... Hey - don t go pricking my geek-bubble with your little barbs of meta- gaming ! ;)
                    Message 9 of 27 , Oct 1, 2008
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                      --- In dglist@yahoogroups.com, SGlancy12@... wrote:

                      >
                      > Because doing nothing makes for a really boring role playing game?

                      Hey - don't go pricking my geek-bubble with your little barbs of meta-
                      gaming ! ;)
                    • Simon Brake
                      It s also an individual human life projected onto humanity as a whole. We re born, we live, we die. You could argue why do anything, and the answer is that
                      Message 10 of 27 , Oct 1, 2008
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                        It's also an individual human life projected onto humanity as a whole. We're born, we live, we die. You could argue why do anything, and the answer is that living things prefer the familiar (and in particular the nicer) experiences of life to the great unknown of death. Projected into Lovecraft's universe there are certainly many more things more terrifying than contemplating 'the great unknown of death' (with its vague promise of a painless blank void), but until your Sanity has been whittled down that far the human mind is probably have you attempting to do what evolution has programmed everything to do... survive.

                        So it is with Delta green and humanity as a whole. Seeing the light of another day, and whatever trivial pleasures you can eke out of it, is a bonus.

                        -----www.myspace.com/breakerspace-----



                        -----www.creativepool.co.uk/employee/resume/index.php?ref=45966-----

                        --- On Wed, 1/10/08, Dennis Detwiller <drgonzo@...> wrote:
                        From: Dennis Detwiller <drgonzo@...>
                        Subject: Re: [dglist] Re: Putting a Human Spin on Things
                        To: dglist@yahoogroups.com
                        Date: Wednesday, 1 October, 2008, 4:01 PM

                        > a) what are they thinking before they get there ? Presumably they
                        > don't achieve this realisation overnight, but through accumulated
                        > exposure to operas in which they are somehow motivated to take part;
                        > and

                        This is as unique as the individual Agent. Were they approached as if
                        DG was secret and on the up-and-up? Do they even KNOW the words Delta
                        Green?
                        For most, I assume the main contributing factor are saving their own
                        ass/being confronted with something wholly not of this earth. These
                        are usually the key to the front door. What they're told on the
                        threshold by those inside is not codified. It's tailored on the fly.

                        > b) What do they do when the penny drops ? 9mm retirement plan ? What
                        > makes them keep fighting if they think it all so pointless ?


                        Some certainly turn to suicide. The bottle. Some keep fighting despite
                        finding out the horrible truth. Some insert fake explanations like
                        religion or other delusions to fill the gaps (no offense meant, this
                        is Lovecraft's world we're speaking of here).

                        The question is not why DG agents keep fighting if they think it's all
                        pointless, it's "why does anyone do anything because it is all
                        pointless". Because in Lovecraft's world, no matter how you might like

                        to play your game in the end, it's just that -- pointless.

                        DENNISDETWILLER: Art, Games, Writing | Detwiller Design - Arc Dream -
                        [PROTOTYPE]
                        contact | drgonzo@... - 778.995.1458 | aim - drgonzo | msn -
                        doctorgonzo123

                        On 1-Oct-08, at 7:17 AM, Graham Kinniburgh wrote:

                        > --- In dglist@yahoogroups.com, Dennis Detwiller <drgonzo@...> wrote:
                        > >
                        > > Have you met a lot of upbeat law enforcement professionals who are
                        > > convinced of humanity's goodness? I have a family full of law
                        > > enforcement people and they are the most jaded, cynical bunch you
                        > can
                        > > imagine. Now imagine they were fighting something inhuman,
                        > > indestructible and which made eliminating crime, drugs, poverty
                        > and
                        > > violence look — in comparison — like taking out the trash. How
                        > upbeat
                        > > would they be? Could they be?
                        > >
                        > > There's a reason suicide strikes psychiatrists and law
                        enforcement
                        > > more than other professions; those two groups get a stark and
                        > > unrelenting peek into what humanity means. Imagine you did all
                        > that
                        > > but also KNEW humanity was a blip, a dead end.
                        > >
                        > > How well would you sleep at night?
                        >
                        > Ok - assume an agent eventually achieves this 'insight'. The
                        > questions are:
                        >
                        > a) what are they thinking before they get there ? Presumably they
                        > don't achieve this realisation overnight, but through accumulated
                        > exposure to operas in which they are somehow motivated to take part;
                        > and
                        >
                        > b) What do they do when the penny drops ? 9mm retirement plan ? What
                        > makes them keep fighting if they think it all so pointless ?
                        >
                        >
                        >



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                        ------------------------------------

                        The Delta Green Mailing List:
                        http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dglist

                        Yahoo! Groups Links








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                      • Dennis Detwiller
                        ... This is a good point Simon. Reminds me of a quote from Dawkins the God Delusion . Paraphrasing: You might think it s awful not believing there s a point
                        Message 11 of 27 , Oct 1, 2008
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                          On 1-Oct-08, at 8:42 AM, Simon Brake wrote:
                          > So it is with Delta green and humanity as a whole. Seeing the light
                          > of another day,
                          >


                          This is a good point Simon.

                          Reminds me of a quote from Dawkins' the "God Delusion". Paraphrasing:

                          "You might think it's awful not believing there's a point to anything;
                          to you, that would be devastating. Me, I'm just looking forward to a
                          good lunch."

                          :)

                          DENNISDETWILLER: Art, Games, Writing | Detwiller Design - Arc Dream -
                          [PROTOTYPE]
                          contact | drgonzo@... - 778.995.1458 | aim - drgonzo | msn -
                          doctorgonzo123



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                        • Jaron Bernstein
                          The WW2 analogy fits. Look at the British intelligence service deception controllers (see Bodyguard Of Lies by Anthony Cave Brown and A Man Called Intrepid in
                          Message 12 of 27 , Oct 1, 2008
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                            The WW2 analogy fits. Look at the British intelligence service deception controllers (see Bodyguard Of Lies by Anthony Cave Brown and A Man Called Intrepid in particular) and what they did. A lot of dirty water to serve a greater end. I can see a similar morality (and its dilemmas) for DG, both in the respect that it all takes place in the dark and the larger costs to society if the effort fails and the individual agents/assets when they get played off as pawns.

                            http://windowslive.com/connect/post/jamiethomson.spaces.live.com-Blog-cns!550F681DAD532637!5295.entry?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_domore_092008

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                          • Silvio Herrera
                            ... Several options come to mind. Some just don t accept the pointlessness. Look at cultists: quite a few try to cease being human in order to save themselves
                            Message 13 of 27 , Oct 1, 2008
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                              On Wed, Oct 1, 2008 at 4:17 PM, Graham Kinniburgh <kinnygraham@...> wrote:
                              > b) What do they do when the penny drops ? 9mm retirement plan ? What
                              > makes them keep fighting if they think it all so pointless

                              Several options come to mind. Some just don't accept the
                              pointlessness. Look at cultists: quite a few try to cease being human
                              in order to save themselves / transcend humanity (survival). In a way,
                              this is the survival instinct sublimated as Nietzschean philosophy
                              (abandoning human morality and becoming the übermensch). Others do
                              accept it and come down on the side of hedonism (do whatever you will,
                              it doesn't matter), and maybe come closer to the outlook of the Great
                              Old Ones (Kill, revel, etc, since morality is pointless). More
                              "heroic" characters like the ones on Delta Green would either come
                              down on the side of denial and trying to kill the cognitive dissonance
                              with drugs, or acceptance and suicide, maybe trying to go down in a
                              blaze of glory (which doesn't even need to be conscious, characters
                              may just become more careless) Or maybe you will get an "On The Beach"
                              ending.
                            • Joe Crazyperson
                              ... I really like this train of thought, arguably its what many people do anyway, they choose Greed and self-serving actions at the cost of the rest of society
                              Message 14 of 27 , Oct 1, 2008
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                                > Maybe individuals would do better to enlighten themselves, for good or bad,
                                > than save the whole of humanity.
                                > On Wed, Oct 1, 2008 at 12:14 PM, Jaron Bernstein <krovos@...>wrote:
                                >

                                I really like this train of thought, arguably its what many people do
                                anyway, they choose Greed and self-serving actions at the cost of the rest
                                of society and humanity. In Lovecraft's mythos, this can be rewarded,
                                although likely you'll not be anything resembling a human when its all done
                                with...

                                >
                                > The WW2 analogy fits. Look at the British intelligence service deception
                                > controllers (see Bodyguard Of Lies by Anthony Cave Brown and A Man Called
                                > Intrepid in particular) and what they did. A lot of dirty water to serve a
                                > greater end. I can see a similar morality (and its dilemmas) for DG, both
                                > in the respect that it all takes place in the dark and the larger costs to
                                > society if the effort fails and the individual agents/assets when they get
                                > played off as pawns.
                                >
                                >
                                > http://windowslive.com/connect/post/jamiethomson.spaces.live.com-Blog-cns!550F681DAD532637!5295.entry?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_domore_092008
                                >
                                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                >
                                >
                                > ------------------------------------
                                >
                                > The Delta Green Mailing List:
                                > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dglist
                                >
                                > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >


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                              • Matt Cowger
                                I thought I might toss in my two pence.   What if the agents don t see the whole picture? They have some vauge sense of the futility of humanity but don t
                                Message 15 of 27 , Oct 1, 2008
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                                  I thought I might toss in my two pence.
                                   
                                  What if the agents don't see the whole picture? They have some vauge sense of the futility of humanity but don't quite grasp that it is all pointless. Or, what if they, through madness or some other agency just ignore it completely?




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                                • Ross Payton
                                  That s a good point. The nihilist view point we talk about probably only truly kicks in when you ve raked up more than a few cthulhu mythos skill points. ...
                                  Message 16 of 27 , Oct 1, 2008
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                                    That's a good point. The nihilist view point we talk about probably only
                                    truly kicks in when you've raked up more than a few cthulhu mythos skill
                                    points.

                                    On Wed, Oct 1, 2008 at 1:23 PM, Matt Cowger <mattcowger2323@...>wrote:

                                    > I thought I might toss in my two pence.
                                    >
                                    > What if the agents don't see the whole picture? They have some vauge sense
                                    > of the futility of humanity but don't quite grasp that it is all pointless.
                                    > Or, what if they, through madness or some other agency just ignore it
                                    > completely?
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > ------------------------------------
                                    >
                                    > The Delta Green Mailing List:
                                    > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dglist
                                    >
                                    > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >


                                    --
                                    Ross Payton
                                    Raillery: A Comedy video podcast
                                    http://www.raillery.tv


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                                  • Keith Boyle
                                    ... That s why it s HORROR and not an espionage RP. Gore is just that. Shock is just that. But horror and terror start with the subversion of PERSONAL
                                    Message 17 of 27 , Oct 1, 2008
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                                      > On Wed, Oct 1, 2008 at 1:23 PM, Matt Cowger <mattcowger2323@...>wrote:
                                      >> What if the agents don't see the whole picture? They have some vauge sense
                                      >> of the futility of humanity but don't quite grasp that it is all
                                      >> pointless.
                                      >> Or, what if they, through madness or some other agency just ignore it
                                      >> completely?<<

                                      On Wed, Oct 1, 2008 at 1:25 PM, Ross Payton <rpayton@...> wrote:
                                      > That's a good point. The nihilist view point we talk about probably only
                                      > truly kicks in when you've raked up more than a few cthulhu mythos skill
                                      > points.<

                                      That's why it's HORROR and not an espionage RP. Gore is just that.
                                      Shock is just that. But horror and terror start with the subversion of
                                      PERSONAL assumptions due to contact with the uncanny, to paraphrase
                                      "Supernatural Horror in Literature." What makes HPL so effective is
                                      his bleak existentialism in a genre where supernatural whatzits save
                                      the day - there's nothing that will save anyone...

                                      A Cell are assholes - misguided, idealistic, overly-optimistic and
                                      completely in denial about their situation. That combination is very
                                      dangerous. A more "humanist" perspective might actually be MJ12: let's
                                      check it out and get what we can from Them in exchange for something
                                      valueless (to us) and then use the stuff to defend ourselves. Cf. The
                                      Conspiracy from X-Files: faced with an inevitable invasion, they seek
                                      coexistence and possible control over the "when" of the end.

                                      Now, back to "the good guys": DG seems to be focused on a goal of "no
                                      supernatural influence on America." Which is flawed from the start
                                      when you think of Nancy. So, perhaps A Cell KNOWS that it's
                                      impossible, but that in the small-scale and short-run cells will be
                                      able to find ways of protecting and serving - at the cost of maybe a
                                      few terminations, some lies here and there, some "permission" of gangs
                                      to operate as a way of keeping out even worse guys (or even just
                                      keeping tabs on that SE Asian gang with a taste for long pig)...

                                      Nemesis folks who read the P:N forums know my views on The Shield, so
                                      I'll not repeat it here...

                                      But THIS - this conflict between agencies and persons and even ideals
                                      and reality - is the core of compelling dramatics. And dramatics are
                                      at the core of the role-playing part of RPGing (otherwise it's just
                                      Risk with weird, weird boards).

                                      $.05USD (inflation, y'know)
                                    • Leszek Karlik
                                      On Wed, 01 Oct 2008 20:23:28 +0200, Matt Cowger wrote: [...] ... Frankly, I don t see pointlessness and ultimate doom as something
                                      Message 18 of 27 , Oct 1, 2008
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                                        On Wed, 01 Oct 2008 20:23:28 +0200, Matt Cowger <mattcowger2323@...>
                                        wrote:

                                        [...]
                                        > What if the agents don't see the whole picture? They have some vauge
                                        > sense of the futility of humanity but don't quite grasp that it is all
                                        > pointless.

                                        Frankly, I don't see pointlessness and ultimate doom as something which is
                                        soul-crushing.

                                        I mean, Real Life is pointless and humanity is ultimately doomed. Not in
                                        2 or 3 generations, and probably not in 20 or 30 generations, and maybe
                                        not in 200 and 300 generations, and there's a small chance that not in
                                        2000-3000 generations... but at some point, humanity will cease to exist
                                        as humanity, Earth will be engulfed by the Sun and the Universe will suffer
                                        a heat death.

                                        Who's desparingly soul-crushed? Raise your hand.




                                        Hmm. Thought so.

                                        In the long run, everybody dies. But in the short run, actions of agents
                                        may prevent humanity from being forcibly eradicated for another 20 or 200
                                        or 2000 years. For Great Old Ones it really doesn't matter whether they
                                        wait 2 years or 2 millenia, but for people it really does.

                                        Leslie
                                        --
                                        Leszek 'Leslie' Karlik
                                      • James Haughton
                                        ... To continue bubble-pricking - it s worth remembering that the meta-game rationale for Delta Green isn t to let you roleplay saving the world, it s to give
                                        Message 19 of 27 , Oct 1, 2008
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                                          --- In dglist@yahoogroups.com, "Graham Kinniburgh" <kinnygraham@...>
                                          wrote:
                                          >
                                          > --- In dglist@yahoogroups.com, SGlancy12@ wrote:
                                          >
                                          > >
                                          > > Because doing nothing makes for a really boring role playing game?
                                          >
                                          > Hey - don't go pricking my geek-bubble with your little barbs of meta-
                                          > gaming ! ;)
                                          >
                                          To continue bubble-pricking - it's worth remembering that the meta-game
                                          rationale for Delta Green isn't to let you roleplay saving the world,
                                          it's to give you a plausible source of new characters to pick up the
                                          baton after the old ones die or go insane, thus avoiding the "we
                                          recruit the bellhop/butler/tribal fisherman" problem. All DG does is
                                          make your dying and going insane more efficient :)
                                        • James Haughton
                                          ... us that ... our ... without ... Sothoth will ... stripped of his humanity in Through the Gates... because that is the way of Yog Sothoth, or simply because
                                          Message 20 of 27 , Oct 1, 2008
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                                            --- In dglist@yahoogroups.com, Simon Brake <psi.breaker@...> wrote:
                                            >
                                            > --- On Wed, 1/10/08, Silvio Herrera <sherreragea@...> wrote:
                                            > >Ultimately, what will destroy us
                                            > >will not be the Mythos, it will be our own natures, or the part of
                                            us that
                                            > >is the Mythos; we are corrupted and doomed from the beginning of
                                            our
                                            > >existence. In a way it is like the doctrine of original sin, only
                                            without
                                            > >anybody to save you (even the "enlightenment" offered by Yog-
                                            Sothoth will
                                            > >strip you of your humanity and make you something else).
                                            >

                                            > I've wondered about that 'happy ending' before. Does Carter get
                                            stripped of his humanity in Through the Gates... because that is the
                                            way of Yog Sothoth, or simply because Carter leaps before he looks?
                                            Arguably though that's human nature at work too.

                                            The simplest explanation is that E Hoffmann Price was very into
                                            Buddhism. And to make a broad generalisation, Buddhists think that
                                            realising the corruption and meaninglessness of everything is a
                                            positive thing. Some of the happiest, calmest people I've ever met
                                            were Buddhists (and I'm not talking "I'm a buddhist when I do my
                                            Madonna Buddhist Kaballah workout routine" buddhists. I'm talking "I
                                            spent ten years meditating on top of a mountain, then came down to
                                            spend some time walking through battlegrounds between Khmer Rouge and
                                            Pathet Lao guerillas to get them to stop shooting each other"
                                            buddhists). Which suggests there might be an upside to Lovecraft's
                                            nihilism, after all.

                                            I think Dave Farnell suggested in "Angel" that spending time in the
                                            dreamlands, i.e. exploring humanity's unconscious, might be
                                            refreshing to one's Sanity. Meditation is much the same thing.
                                          • David Farnell
                                            On Thu, Oct 2, 2008 at 9:40 AM, James Haughton ... Buddhism is, to me, a very interesting flip side to the whole horror of knowing the Truth thing. The way
                                            Message 21 of 27 , Oct 1, 2008
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                                              On Thu, Oct 2, 2008 at 9:40 AM, James Haughton
                                              <james.haughton@...> wrote:
                                              > The simplest explanation is that E Hoffmann Price was very into
                                              > Buddhism. And to make a broad generalisation, Buddhists think that
                                              > realising the corruption and meaninglessness of everything is a
                                              > positive thing. Some of the happiest, calmest people I've ever met
                                              > were Buddhists (and I'm not talking "I'm a buddhist when I do my
                                              > Madonna Buddhist Kaballah workout routine" buddhists. I'm talking "I
                                              > spent ten years meditating on top of a mountain, then came down to
                                              > spend some time walking through battlegrounds between Khmer Rouge and
                                              > Pathet Lao guerillas to get them to stop shooting each other"
                                              > buddhists). Which suggests there might be an upside to Lovecraft's
                                              > nihilism, after all.

                                              Buddhism is, to me, a very interesting flip side to the whole "horror
                                              of knowing the Truth" thing. The way I've been toying with it, seeking
                                              Enlightenment in a Lovecraftian universe is a very, very dangerous
                                              thing, but *some* Buddhist paths (and perhaps other mystic paths to
                                              Enlightenment) provide a way to do it without losing your Sanity or
                                              becoming enslaved by the Mythos (or turning into a being of pure math,
                                              or becoming a ghoul, or whatever). As far as game effects go, I would
                                              have it erase your SAN score completely--not 0 SAN, just no SAN stat
                                              at all. No more SAN rolls, yet still...sane? Not really. But not
                                              insane, either.

                                              Needless to say, this is the kind of thing that virtually no PC will
                                              ever survive long enough to achieve, and it would require withdrawing
                                              from the world for years and years, so it's not something you can
                                              effectively pursue while doing operas. It's almost exclusively a thing
                                              for NPCs.

                                              > I think Dave Farnell suggested in "Angel" that spending time in the
                                              > dreamlands, i.e. exploring humanity's unconscious, might be
                                              > refreshing to one's Sanity. Meditation is much the same thing.

                                              Of course, this depends on where you go in the DLs. Davide Mana's
                                              DG-flavored Slumberpunk tales show that the DLs can be a very nasty
                                              place indeed.
                                              http://www.fortunecity.com/tattooine/zenith/134/slumber.htm
                                              And even if your agents do have a redoubt of peace and beauty to which
                                              they can retreat in the DLs--perhaps even with a Dreamlands equivalent
                                              of a psychiatrist who can help them heal their SAN!--at some point,
                                              you just have to have it invaded by Men of Leng who turn it all to
                                              death and horror. Because, come on, that would be cool.

                                              Dave
                                            • Kenneth Scroggins
                                              On Wed, Oct 1, 2008 at 2:40 PM, James Haughton ... Not in my Dreamlands... unrelenting magical warfare tends to be hard on the Sanity Points. The Man in Black
                                              Message 22 of 27 , Oct 1, 2008
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                                                On Wed, Oct 1, 2008 at 2:40 PM, James Haughton
                                                <james.haughton@...> wrote:

                                                > I think Dave Farnell suggested in "Angel" that spending time in the
                                                > dreamlands, i.e. exploring humanity's unconscious, might be
                                                > refreshing to one's Sanity.

                                                Not in my Dreamlands... unrelenting magical warfare tends to be hard
                                                on the Sanity Points.

                                                The Man in Black is : Kenneth Scroggins
                                                Novus Ordo Seclorum : Annuit Coeptus : E Pluribus Unum
                                                ______________________________________
                                                http://home.hawaii.rr.com/maninblack/dg.html
                                              • Graham Kinniburgh
                                                ... game ... The meta-game reason (or one of them) for the creation of DG was - as you say - to provide a believable reason for characters to investigate the
                                                Message 23 of 27 , Oct 2, 2008
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                                                  --- In dglist@yahoogroups.com, "James Haughton" <james.haughton@...>

                                                  > To continue bubble-pricking - it's worth remembering that the meta-
                                                  game
                                                  > rationale for Delta Green isn't to let you roleplay saving the world,
                                                  > it's to give you a plausible source of new characters to pick up the
                                                  > baton after the old ones die or go insane, thus avoiding the "we
                                                  > recruit the bellhop/butler/tribal fisherman" problem. All DG does is
                                                  > make your dying and going insane more efficient :)


                                                  The meta-game reason (or one of them) for the creation of DG was - as
                                                  you say - to provide a believable reason for characters to investigate
                                                  the mythos. I don't think Mr Glancy was being serious with his
                                                  response, but if we WERE to treat it seriously then we wouldn't perhaps
                                                  have needed DG in the first place - because the answer to 'why is this
                                                  bellhop suddenly agreeing to up sticks and travel to Cairo' would have
                                                  been 'because it would be a pretty boring role-playing game if he
                                                  didn't'.....The Pagan guys obviously wanted something more credible
                                                  than that - hence 'The Golden Dawn' and 'DG'.

                                                  And now we do have DG, I think it's still a useful exercise to examine
                                                  the motivations of agents and how A-Cell may share or exploit those
                                                  motivations. Some agents may be duped into their initial exposure to
                                                  the mythos, but there must be a reason they keep coming back for more.
                                                  That's where stuff like revenge, patriotism, human survival and the
                                                  misplaced optimism that they can make a difference and hold back the
                                                  night will come in. While I might agree with Dennis that a nihilistic
                                                  mindset can occur as the Truth dawns, I don't believe that all agents
                                                  will hold this mindset. And for those that do the question is still
                                                  valid - why continue ?

                                                  Ditto for A-Cell who perhaps see something more of the bigger picture
                                                  than most agents (even if that picture is still very much a
                                                  misinterpreted and fragmented one). They must believe they are making
                                                  some kind of difference even if they use very questionable means.
                                                • Silvio Herrera
                                                  I don t know if this will add anything new to the discussion this late in the thread, but still, rereading it I got the idea of putting it in terms of other
                                                  Message 24 of 27 , Oct 4, 2008
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                                                    I don't know if this will add anything new to the discussion this late in
                                                    the thread, but still, rereading it I got the idea of putting it in terms of
                                                    other fictional sources, namely Watchmen, since it tries to deconstruct the
                                                    idea of the (super)hero.

                                                    I think the most relevant examples there are the Comedian, Ozymandias and
                                                    Rorscharch. All three confront the futility of heroism and the true nature
                                                    of humanity in their own way, and respond in kind.

                                                    First, the Comedian. He believes nothing can change the world, and becomes a
                                                    cynical, hedonistic nihilist. He becomes a worse criminal than the ones he
                                                    used to fight, even as he preserves his public hero image and is employed by
                                                    the government. Why does he fight? For his own personal power, and because
                                                    he enjoys the bloodshed.

                                                    Then we have Ozymandias, the "perfect" human. His megalomaniacal need to be
                                                    the hero and set things right led him to become an anti-villain, and use
                                                    methods exploiting the very same human weaknesses that prevent heroes from
                                                    prevailing to obtain what he wants, giving his own morality and "heroism" in
                                                    the way. Why does he fight? Because not doing so would mean accepting his
                                                    own weakness, and that is simply unacceptable- And he gets what he wants...
                                                    apparently, as it is very heavily implied in the ending that his efforts
                                                    will come down to naught.

                                                    Then we have Rorschach, which is ironically, maybe the "real" hero, despite
                                                    being likely the most hated and unlikable character inside the comic. When
                                                    faced with the meaninglessness of the universe, he only hardens his resolve,
                                                    to the point of becoming a obsessive psychopath, an extremist with a view as
                                                    black and white as his mask, using brutal, antiheroic methods to fight his
                                                    opponents. Why does he fight? Well, in his own words, "No. Not even in the
                                                    face of Armageddon. Never Compromise". He is literally, unable of giving up,
                                                    preferring death to any hint of compromise, maybe because he believes that
                                                    is the only thing separating him from the murderers and criminals he so
                                                    hates.

                                                    You could draw parallels from this to the recently discussed agent
                                                    categories of Careerist, Compromised (or Crusader) and Cowboy, if you want.


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