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RE: [delany-list] Ash of Stars

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  • Dan'l Danehy-Oakes
    Ralph, The union of the criminal and the artist comes, I think, from two things. The first is the existence of a few notable poets in history who were
    Message 1 of 13 , Oct 17, 2011
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      Ralph,

      The "union of the criminal and the artist" comes, I think, from two things.

      The first is the existence of a few notable poets in history who were outlaws (notably Francois Villon, arguably the best French poet of his century).

      The second, and more important to my mind, is that both artists and criminals stand in opposition to society.

      --Dan'l

      To: delany-list@yahoogroups.com; rdumain@...
      From: rdumain@...
      Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2011 04:18:19 -0400
      Subject: Re: [delany-list] Ash of Stars




























      I haven't read Delany himself in many years, but reading the first few

      essays in this book have blown my mind. There are certain aspects of

      contemporary academic writing and ideology in the book, and the framing

      of academic concerns, that always irritate me, but the observations of

      some of these authors give me something new to think about as well as

      to pinpoint my particular reactions to Delany, to reception of Delany,

      to subcultures, etc.



      I don't believe in the union of the criminal and the artist, by the

      way. That kind of thinking has got to go.



      On Sun, 16 Oct 2011 01:05:46 -0400, rdumain@... wrote:



      Well, I finally located a cheap copy in a used book store, been on my

      list for some time. Actually, though, it's been some years since I read

      anything by or about Delany.Maybe the attempts to decipher k> Leslie

      Steiner will pique my interest.



      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


















      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • rdumain@autodidactproject.org
      Actually, I don t think that criminals stand in opposition to society at all. But rather than argue the obvious, when I think of this my first thoughts go to
      Message 2 of 13 , Oct 17, 2011
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        Actually, I don't think that criminals stand in opposition to society
        at all. But rather than argue the obvious, when I think of this my
        first thoughts go to Richard Wright, who wondered about the potential
        of outsiderness in NATIVE SON (1940) and THE OUTSIDER (1953), both
        with gruesome implicit conclusions. Real criminality is not remotely
        oppositional. But there's the question of the potentials of the
        outsider perspective, explored by Wright in all his work from at least
        1940 on. Delany, like Wright, is a highly civilzed man, though not a
        product of the dire circumstances of the latter, so that, whatever he
        has experienced in the Unlicensed Zone, he wouldn't do well with real
        criminals. He's probably been around thugs, as I have, and hopefully
        he'd be smart enough to see them as the enemy.
         
        But there's something else I vaguel recall from BABEL-17, as much as
        I can remember from three and a half decades ago. Was not the
        criminality of one of the main characters due to his inarticulateness,
        his inability to conceptualize his experience? This factor changes the
        entire perspective.
         
         
        On Mon, 17 Oct 2011 08:26:58 -0700, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:

        >
        > Ralph,
        >
        > The "union of the criminal and the artist" comes, I think, from two things.
        >
        > The first is the existence of a few notable poets in history who were
        > outlaws (notably Francois Villon, arguably the best French poet of
        > his century).
        >
        > The second, and more important to my mind, is that both artists and
        > criminals stand in opposition to society.
        >
        > --Dan'l
        >
        > To: delany-list@yahoogroups.com; rdumain@...
        > From: rdumain@...
        > Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2011 04:18:19 -0400
        > Subject: Re: [delany-list] Ash of Stars
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
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        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
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        >
        >
        >
        >
        > I haven't read Delany himself in many years, but reading the first
        > few essays in this book have blown my mind. There are certain aspects
        > of contemporary academic writing and ideology in the book, and the
        > framing of academic concerns, that always irritate me, but the
        > observations of some of these authors give me something new to think
        > about as well as to pinpoint my particular reactions to Delany, to
        > reception of Delany, to subcultures, etc. I don't believe in the
        > union of the criminal and the artist, by the way. That kind of
        > thinking has got to go. On Sun, 16 Oct 2011 01:05:46 -0400,
        > rdumain@... wrote:
        >
        >
        >
        > Well, I finally located a cheap copy in a used book store, been on my
        > list for some time. Actually, though, it's been some years since I
        > read anything by or about Delany.Maybe the attempts to decipher k>
        > Leslie Steiner will pique my interest. [Non-text portions of this
        > message have been removed]
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >
        >
        >
        > ------------------------------------
        >
        > == Posted to delany-list, hosted at yahoo groups ==
        > == A mailing list for the discussion of the works of Samuel R.
        > Delany. ==Yahoo! Groups Links
        >
        >
        >

         
      • Zvi Gilbert
        I think the best description of criminality in opposition to society in early Delany is the story Time Considered as a Helix of Semi-Precious Stones , one of
        Message 3 of 13 , Oct 17, 2011
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          I think the best description of criminality in opposition to society in
          early Delany is the story 'Time Considered as a Helix of Semi-Precious
          Stones', one of my very favorites. In it, the narrator is a criminal trying
          to move up in the world, and consorts with artists (the Singers),
          politicians, and other criminals; I'm sure one could draw several
          entertaining quotes about the putative relationship of criminality and
          society from that story (something about "The will to steal"; I don't have
          the text in front of me.). It's all a bit of a lark and I wouldn't say that
          it's 'true' in any real way that makes a difference to, say, theories of
          incarceration. It's an exceedingly romantic view of the artist, as Dan'l
          points out.

          Also:
          The criminal is the creative artist; the detective only the critic.
          -- G.K. Chesterton, The Blue Cross

          Every work of art is an uncommitted crime.
          -- THEODOR WIESENGRUND ADORNO, Minima Moralia

          --Z

          On Mon, Oct 17, 2011 at 12:01 PM, <rdumain@...> wrote:

          > Actually, I don't think that criminals stand in opposition to society
          > at all. But rather than argue the obvious, when I think of this my
          > first thoughts go to Richard Wright, who wondered about the potential
          > of outsiderness in NATIVE SON (1940) and THE OUTSIDER (1953), both
          > with gruesome implicit conclusions. Real criminality is not remotely
          > oppositional. But there's the question of the potentials of the
          > outsider perspective, explored by Wright in all his work from at least
          > 1940 on. Delany, like Wright, is a highly civilzed man, though not a
          > product of the dire circumstances of the latter, so that, whatever he
          > has experienced in the Unlicensed Zone, he wouldn't do well with real
          > criminals. He's probably been around thugs, as I have, and hopefully
          > he'd be smart enough to see them as the enemy.
          >
          > But there's something else I vaguel recall from BABEL-17, as much as
          > I can remember from three and a half decades ago. Was not the
          > criminality of one of the main characters due to his inarticulateness,
          > his inability to conceptualize his experience? This factor changes the
          > entire perspective.
          >
          >
          > On Mon, 17 Oct 2011 08:26:58 -0700, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:
          >
          > >
          > > Ralph,
          > >
          > > The "union of the criminal and the artist" comes, I think, from two
          > things.
          > >
          > > The first is the existence of a few notable poets in history who were
          > > outlaws (notably Francois Villon, arguably the best French poet of
          > > his century).
          > >
          > > The second, and more important to my mind, is that both artists and
          > > criminals stand in opposition to society.
          > >
          > > --Dan'l
          > >
          > > To: delany-list@yahoogroups.com; rdumain@...
          > > From: rdumain@...
          > > Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2011 04:18:19 -0400
          > > Subject: Re: [delany-list] Ash of Stars
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > I haven't read Delany himself in many years, but reading the first
          > > few essays in this book have blown my mind. There are certain aspects
          > > of contemporary academic writing and ideology in the book, and the
          > > framing of academic concerns, that always irritate me, but the
          > > observations of some of these authors give me something new to think
          > > about as well as to pinpoint my particular reactions to Delany, to
          > > reception of Delany, to subcultures, etc. I don't believe in the
          > > union of the criminal and the artist, by the way. That kind of
          > > thinking has got to go. On Sun, 16 Oct 2011 01:05:46 -0400,
          > > rdumain@... wrote:
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > Well, I finally located a cheap copy in a used book store, been on my
          > > list for some time. Actually, though, it's been some years since I
          > > read anything by or about Delany.Maybe the attempts to decipher k>
          > > Leslie Steiner will pique my interest. [Non-text portions of this
          > > message have been removed]
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > ------------------------------------
          > >
          > > == Posted to delany-list, hosted at yahoo groups ==
          > > == A mailing list for the discussion of the works of Samuel R.
          > > Delany. ==Yahoo! Groups Links
          > >
          > >
          > >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > ------------------------------------
          >
          > == Posted to delany-list, hosted at yahoo groups ==
          > == A mailing list for the discussion of the works of Samuel R. Delany.
          > ==Yahoo! Groups Links
          >
          >
          >
          >


          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • rdumain@autodidactproject.org
          Don t recall the Adorno quote, though there are untold riches in MINIMA MORALIA. Once again on Richard Wright s THE OUTSIDER: another view of criminality is
          Message 4 of 13 , Oct 17, 2011
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            Don't recall the Adorno quote, though there are untold riches in MINIMA
            MORALIA. Once again on Richard Wright's THE OUTSIDER: another view of
            criminality is offered, for the main character, who is a "thought
            criminal" as well as a murderer (though more by force of circumstance
            than real ill will), argues with the detective on his trail (though the
            detective doesn't know it yet), who is also an outsider and thus also a
            "criminal", that outsiderness, is, in the definitional structure of
            society, criminality. This perspectival criminality allows one to
            understand, and up to a point even identify with, actual criminality,
            but only in certain respects. There is also the ever-present threat of
            chaos. But the outsider perspective allows one to analyze, and hence
            structure, chaos. This could be considered quite Delanyesque.

            On Mon, 17 Oct 2011 12:14:12 -0400, Zvi Gilbert wrote:

            I think the best description of criminality in
            opposition to society in
            early Delany is the story 'Time Considered as a Helix of Semi-Precious
            Stones', one of my very favorites. In it, the narrator is a criminal trying
            to move up in the world, and consorts with artists (the Singers),
            politicians, and other criminals; I'm sure one could draw several
            entertaining quotes about the putative relationship of criminality and
            society from that story (something about "The will to steal"; I don't have
            the text in front of me.). It's all a bit of a lark and I wouldn't say that
            it's 'true' in any real way that makes a difference to, say, theories of
            incarceration. It's an exceedingly romantic view of the artist, as Dan'l
            points out.

            Also:
            The criminal is the creative artist; the detective only the critic.
            -- G.K. Chesterton, The Blue Cross

            Every work of art is an uncommitted crime.
            -- THEODOR WIESENGRUND ADORNO, Minima Moralia

            --Z

            On Mon, Oct 17, 2011 at 12:01 PM, wrote:

            > Actually, I don't think that criminals stand in opposition to society
            > at all. But rather than argue the obvious, when I think of this my
            > first thoughts go to Richard Wright, who wondered about the potential
            > of outsiderness in NATIVE SON (1940) and THE OUTSIDER (1953), both
            > with gruesome implicit conclusions. Real criminality is not remotely
            > oppositional. But there's the question of the potentials of the
            > outsider perspective, explored by Wright in all his work from at least
            > 1940 on. Delany, like Wright, is a highly civilzed man, though not a
            > product of the dire circumstances of the latter, so that, whatever he
            > has experienced in the Unlicensed Zone, he wouldn't do well with real
            > criminals. He's probably been around thugs, as I have, and hopefully
            > he'd be smart enough to see them as the enemy.
            >
            > But there's something else I vaguel recall from BABEL-17, as much as
            > I can remember from three and a half decades ago. Was not the
            > criminality of one of the main characters due to his inarticulateness,
            > his inability to conceptualize his experience? This factor changes the
            > entire perspective.
            >
            >
            > On Mon, 17 Oct 2011 08:26:58 -0700, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:
            >
            > >
            > > Ralph,
            > >
            > > The "union of the criminal and the artist" comes, I think, from two
            > things.
            > >
            > > The first is the existence of a few notable poets in history who were
            > > outlaws (notably Francois Villon, arguably the best French poet of
            > > his century).
            > >
            > > The second, and more important to my mind, is that both artists and
            > > criminals stand in opposition to society.
            > >
            > > --Dan'l
            > >
            > > To: delany-list@yahoogroups.com; rdumain@...
            > > From: rdumain@...
            > > Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2011 04:18:19 -0400
            > > Subject: Re: [delany-list] Ash of Stars
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > > I haven't read Delany himself in many years, but reading the first
            > > few essays in this book have blown my mind. There are certain aspects
            > > of contemporary academic writing and ideology in the book, and the
            > > framing of academic concerns, that always irritate me, but the
            > > observations of some of these authors give me something new to think
            > > about as well as to pinpoint my particular reactions to Delany, to
            > > reception of Delany, to subcultures, etc. I don't believe in the
            > > union of the criminal and the artist, by the way. That kind of
            > > thinking has got to go. On Sun, 16 Oct 2011 01:05:46 -0400,
            > > rdumain@... wrote:
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > > Well, I finally located a cheap copy in a used book store, been on my
            > > list for some time. Actually, though, it's been some years since I
            > > read anything by or about Delany.Maybe the attempts to decipher k>
            > > Leslie Steiner will pique my interest. [Non-text portions of this
            > > message have been removed]
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > > ------------------------------------
            > >
            > > == Posted to delany-list, hosted at yahoo groups ==
            > > == A mailing list for the discussion of the works of Samuel R.
            > > Delany. ==Yahoo! Groups Links
            > >
            > >
            > >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > ------------------------------------
            >
            > == Posted to delany-list, hosted at yahoo groups ==
            > == A mailing list for the discussion of the works of Samuel R. Delany.
            > ==Yahoo! Groups Links
            >
            >
            >
            >

            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Steve M
            ... Somehow, having read Heavenly Breakfast, and Time Square Red/Blue, I doubt enemy or thugs are the words he would choose for the people you characterize
            Message 5 of 13 , Oct 17, 2011
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              At 12:01 PM -0400 10/17/11, rdumain@... wrote:
              >Delany, like Wright, is a highly civilzed man, though not a
              >product of the dire circumstances of the latter, so that, whatever he
              >has experienced in the Unlicensed Zone, he wouldn't do well with real
              >criminals. He's probably been around thugs, as I have, and hopefully
              >he'd be smart enough to see them as the enemy.

              Somehow, having read Heavenly Breakfast, and Time Square Red/Blue, I
              doubt "enemy" or "thugs" are the words he would choose for the people
              you characterize thus. I'm not saying he would embrace them as
              comrades in arms--that seems equally unlikely. The thugs and enemy of
              Times Square Red/Blue, such as they are, would be the financial and
              real estate speculators who robbed the Times Square area of its
              street life.

              You have always seemed to proceed from an essentially binary
              conception of the world (and especially of types of people) that
              seems frankly at odds with the the sort of complexity that seems to
              energize Delany's work. The circumstances of Hasler's death in "The
              Man Man" when finally revealed, make choosing clear "enemies" or
              "thugs" problematic at best.

              And it's clear that the "thugs" of S"tars in My Pocket..." are the
              Thant family--not the inscrutible xlv or even the assassin on Marq's
              initial flight home. Indeed, Marq (and the book) see him as someone
              to whom one should give a wide berth, but not the "enemy."

              At 12:01 PM -0400 10/17/11, rdumain@... wrote:
              >Real criminality is not remotely
              >oppositional.

              I think you also simplify a complex question here--one that Delany
              explores in "Time Considered as a Helix of Semi-Precious Stones"
              which suggests that most criminality (and by extension most art) is
              not oppositional in any effective sense. It neither tries nor
              succeeds in shaking up the social structures it weaves in and out of.
              Indeed: It depends on the stability of those structures. Disruptive
              criminality (and art) are intentionally (and sometimes effectively)
              oppositional. The criminals who want to game systems are different
              from those who want to destroy them. (This is how the Prohbition-era
              rum-runners, who depended on Prohibition to keep prices and profits
              high, are different from those who participated in the Underground
              Railway for slaves, though both were criminal.)

              That is what Maud Hinkle is hinting at in "Time Considered..." And
              while Delany's later work seems to move away from that simple
              romantic view of the criminal, the changes are not so much to deny
              the observations there as to simply deromanticize the criminal and
              explore the ways in which criminality is in fact determined by the
              structures of non-criminal society and necessary to and interwoven
              with it. The smuggler in the Neveryon series is a criminal but
              necessary--the legitimate markets would not function without him. His
              role is determined, and the occasional prosecutions of smugglers are
              meant not to eliminate the practice but to keep it in check at the
              necessary level. Meanwhile Gorgik's disruptive criminality, once he
              starts freeing slaves, makes him the object of active pursuit, until
              the later Neveryon novels, when his role becomes integrated into and
              necessary to those structures.
            • Jorge Rapalo
              While I understand the value of exploring the extremist behavior that probes at the boundaries of what is deemed moral within certain society patterns, I must
              Message 6 of 13 , Oct 18, 2011
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                While I understand the value of exploring the extremist behavior that
                probes at the boundaries of what is deemed moral within certain society
                patterns, I must confess I am often discomforted by the friendly approach
                of Delany to characters that are criminals, not to society per se, as a
                system of authority and hierarchy, but to plain other people. The casual
                portrayal of rapists (who make a methodology and almost profession of
                such abuse) sometimes strikes me as going beyond intellectual curiosity
                or desire to explore mindsets, into outright fascination. I have not given
                it the detailed reading and critical analysis it may need for accurate
                commentary, but my distaste lingers.


                On Mon, Oct 17, 2011 at 6:19 PM, Steve M <lists@...> wrote:
                > At 12:01 PM -0400 10/17/11, rdumain@... wrote:
                >>Delany, like Wright, is a highly civilzed man, though not a
                >>product of the dire circumstances of the latter, so that, whatever he
                >>has experienced in the Unlicensed Zone, he wouldn't do well with real
                >>criminals. He's probably been around thugs, as I have, and hopefully
                >>he'd be smart enough to see them as the enemy.
                >
                > Somehow, having read Heavenly Breakfast, and Time Square Red/Blue, I
                > doubt "enemy" or "thugs" are the words he would choose for the people
                > you characterize thus. I'm not saying he would embrace them as
                > comrades in arms--that seems equally unlikely. The thugs and enemy of
                > Times Square Red/Blue, such as they are, would be the financial and
                > real estate speculators who robbed the Times Square area of its
                > street life.
                >
                > You have always seemed to proceed from an essentially binary
                > conception of the world (and especially of types of people) that
                > seems frankly at odds with the the sort of complexity that seems to
                > energize Delany's work.  The circumstances of Hasler's death in "The
                > Man Man" when finally revealed, make choosing clear "enemies" or
                > "thugs" problematic at best.
                >
                > And it's clear that the "thugs" of S"tars in My Pocket..." are the
                > Thant family--not the inscrutible xlv or even the assassin on Marq's
                > initial flight home. Indeed, Marq (and the book) see him as someone
                > to whom one should give a wide berth, but not the "enemy."
                >
                > At 12:01 PM -0400 10/17/11, rdumain@... wrote:
                >>Real criminality is not remotely
                >>oppositional.
                >
                > I think you also simplify a complex question here--one that Delany
                > explores in "Time Considered as a Helix of Semi-Precious Stones"
                > which suggests that most criminality (and by extension most art) is
                > not oppositional in any effective sense. It neither tries nor
                > succeeds in shaking up the social structures it weaves in and out of.
                > Indeed: It depends on the stability of those structures. Disruptive
                > criminality (and art) are intentionally (and sometimes effectively)
                > oppositional. The criminals who want to game systems are different
                > from those who want to destroy them. (This is how the Prohbition-era
                > rum-runners, who depended on Prohibition to keep prices and profits
                > high, are different from those who participated in the Underground
                > Railway for slaves, though both were criminal.)
                >
                > That is what Maud Hinkle is hinting at in "Time Considered..." And
                > while Delany's later work seems to move away from that simple
                > romantic view of the criminal, the changes are not so much to deny
                > the observations there as to simply deromanticize the criminal and
                > explore the ways in which criminality is in fact determined by the
                > structures of non-criminal society and necessary to and interwoven
                > with it. The smuggler in the Neveryon series is a criminal but
                > necessary--the legitimate markets would not function without him. His
                > role is determined, and the occasional prosecutions of smugglers are
                > meant not to eliminate the practice but to keep it in check at the
                > necessary level. Meanwhile Gorgik's disruptive criminality, once he
                > starts freeing slaves, makes him the object of active pursuit, until
                > the later Neveryon novels, when his role becomes integrated into and
                > necessary to those structures.
                >
                >
                > ------------------------------------
                >
                > == Posted to delany-list, hosted at yahoo groups ==
                > == A mailing list for the discussion of the works of Samuel R. Delany. ==Yahoo! Groups Links
                >
                >
                >
                >
              • rdumain@autodidactproject.org
                I have yet to respond to the previous poster, but this reminds me of one of the two essays on STARS IN MY POCKET LIKE GRAINS OF SAND, Debased and Lascivious?
                Message 7 of 13 , Oct 18, 2011
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                  I have yet to respond to the previous poster, but this reminds me of
                  one of the two essays on STARS IN MY POCKET LIKE GRAINS OF SAND,
                  "Debased and Lascivious?" by Russell Blackford. Blackford addresses
                  not only the question of moral assumptions but also the question of
                  disgust. This clarifies for me the brilliance of what Delany has
                  accomplished and where I part company. Literature is not real life, so
                  one can't assume the author endorses what he writes about, but life is
                  not neutral, it demands judgment and boundaries, and so I think we've
                  reached the limit of what can be contemplated.

                  On a more general note, I think that for thoughtful people who grew
                  up before the Reagan era, we are living in a retrospective age,
                  investigating and highlighting all the (different) assumptions of the
                  past. I am more likely to read something of that than something
                  futuristic, since (1) I don't think there is any future, (2) the
                  distance between the future and the assumptions of hi tech media
                  culture today is so minuscule that imagination has lost its function.

                  On Tue, 18 Oct 2011 07:01:17 -0600, Jorge Rapalo wrote:

                  While I understand the value of exploring the extremist
                  behavior that
                  probes at the boundaries of what is deemed moral within certain society
                  patterns, I must confess I am often discomforted by the friendly approach
                  of Delany to characters that are criminals, not to society per se, as a
                  system of authority and hierarchy, but to plain other people. The casual
                  portrayal of rapists (who make a methodology and almost profession of
                  such abuse) sometimes strikes me as going beyond intellectual curiosity
                  or desire to explore mindsets, into outright fascination. I have not given
                  it the detailed reading and critical analysis it may need for accurate
                  commentary, but my distaste lingers.

                  On Mon, Oct 17, 2011 at 6:19 PM, Steve M wrote:
                  > At 12:01 PM -0400 10/17/11, rdumain@... wrote:
                  >> Delany, like Wright, is a highly civilzed man, though not a
                  >> product of the dire circumstances of the latter, so that, whatever he
                  >> has experienced in the Unlicensed Zone, he wouldn't do well with real
                  >> criminals. He's probably been around thugs, as I have, and hopefully
                  >> he'd be smart enough to see them as the enemy.
                  >
                  > Somehow, having read Heavenly Breakfast, and Time Square Red/Blue, I
                  > doubt "enemy" or "thugs" are the words he would choose for the people
                  > you characterize thus. I'm not saying he would embrace them as
                  > comrades in arms--that seems equally unlikely. The thugs and enemy of
                  > Times Square Red/Blue, such as they are, would be the financial and
                  > real estate speculators who robbed the Times Square area of its
                  > street life.
                  >
                  > You have always seemed to proceed from an essentially binary
                  > conception of the world (and especially of types of people) that
                  > seems frankly at odds with the the sort of complexity that seems to
                  > energize Delany's work. The circumstances of Hasler's death in "The
                  > Man Man" when finally revealed, make choosing clear "enemies" or
                  > "thugs" problematic at best.
                  >
                  > And it's clear that the "thugs" of S"tars in My Pocket..." are the
                  > Thant family--not the inscrutible xlv or even the assassin on Marq's
                  > initial flight home. Indeed, Marq (and the book) see him as someone
                  > to whom one should give a wide berth, but not the "enemy."
                  >
                  > At 12:01 PM -0400 10/17/11, rdumain@... wrote:
                  >> Real criminality is not remotely
                  >> oppositional.
                  >
                  > I think you also simplify a complex question here--one that Delany
                  > explores in "Time Considered as a Helix of Semi-Precious Stones"
                  > which suggests that most criminality (and by extension most art) is
                  > not oppositional in any effective sense. It neither tries nor
                  > succeeds in shaking up the social structures it weaves in and out of.
                  > Indeed: It depends on the stability of those structures. Disruptive
                  > criminality (and art) are intentionally (and sometimes effectively)
                  > oppositional. The criminals who want to game systems are different
                  > from those who want to destroy them. (This is how the Prohbition-era
                  > rum-runners, who depended on Prohibition to keep prices and profits
                  > high, are different from those who participated in the Underground
                  > Railway for slaves, though both were criminal.)
                  >
                  > That is what Maud Hinkle is hinting at in "Time Considered..." And
                  > while Delany's later work seems to move away from that simple
                  > romantic view of the criminal, the changes are not so much to deny
                  > the observations there as to simply deromanticize the criminal and
                  > explore the ways in which criminality is in fact determined by the
                  > structures of non-criminal society and necessary to and interwoven
                  > with it. The smuggler in the Neveryon series is a criminal but
                  > necessary--the legitimate markets would not function without him. His
                  > role is determined, and the occasional prosecutions of smugglers are
                  > meant not to eliminate the practice but to keep it in check at the
                  > necessary level. Meanwhile Gorgik's disruptive criminality, once he
                  > starts freeing slaves, makes him the object of active pursuit, until
                  > the later Neveryon novels, when his role becomes integrated into and
                  > necessary to those structures.
                  >
                  >
                  > ------------------------------------
                  >
                  > == Posted to delany-list, hosted at yahoo groups ==
                  > == A mailing list for the discussion of the works of Samuel R.
                  > Delany. ==Yahoo! Groups Links
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >






                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Ralph Dumain
                  Duly noted that not all legally designatable as criminals are the same, or that those who aren t, should be. The farther I read in this book, the better I
                  Message 8 of 13 , Oct 19, 2011
                  • 0 Attachment
                    Duly noted that not all legally designatable as "criminals" are the
                    same, or that those who aren't, should be.

                    The farther I read in this book, the better I see the contours of what I
                    knew, forgot, or missed in Delany. And regret that I haven't kept up.
                    But also, I think of the transition between eras and generations. Delany
                    was born in 1942, grew up in the '40s & '50s, and emerged into the world
                    of the '60s and '70s. I can't even remember what of his I've read if
                    anything since the mid-'80s, which is when the cultural-political sea
                    change inaugurated by the Reagan era congealed in its fully perceptible
                    form.

                    But what about the world inherited by people born since then, who began
                    where the previous generation or two left off? What is to be said now
                    that wasn't said before?

                    I've only one essay left to read, on Spencer's /Laws of Form/, which is
                    probably what initially annoyed me when I glanced at it first picking up
                    the book. We shall see. So far I like all the essays but one, "Delany's
                    Dirt" by Ray Davis, which is about Delany's outre porno novels climaxing
                    with /The Mad Man/. Davis is quite articulate in stating his position,
                    but I'm not buying it. Also reminded of something I dislike about the
                    lit crit crowd. People love to live dangerously from a safe distance,
                    hence their tolerance. But actually, the only liberal, tolerant person
                    is the one for whom nothing is personally at stake. That was 1995, a
                    year before the anthology was published. Which means I'm a decade and a
                    half out of date even with respect to this anthology. Yet, by then I had
                    already given up on American culture before that. My priorities are
                    quite different than what Mr. Davis deemed important. We shall see how
                    things pan out should I ever find the time to catch up on what I've missed.


                    On 10/18/2011 8:24 AM, rdumain@... wrote:
                    >
                    > I have yet to respond to the previous poster, but this reminds me of
                    > one of the two essays on STARS IN MY POCKET LIKE GRAINS OF SAND,
                    > "Debased and Lascivious?" by Russell Blackford. Blackford addresses
                    > not only the question of moral assumptions but also the question of
                    > disgust. This clarifies for me the brilliance of what Delany has
                    > accomplished and where I part company. Literature is not real life, so
                    > one can't assume the author endorses what he writes about, but life is
                    > not neutral, it demands judgment and boundaries, and so I think we've
                    > reached the limit of what can be contemplated.
                    >
                    > On a more general note, I think that for thoughtful people who grew
                    > up before the Reagan era, we are living in a retrospective age,
                    > investigating and highlighting all the (different) assumptions of the
                    > past. I am more likely to read something of that than something
                    > futuristic, since (1) I don't think there is any future, (2) the
                    > distance between the future and the assumptions of hi tech media
                    > culture today is so minuscule that imagination has lost its function.
                    >
                    > On Tue, 18 Oct 2011 07:01:17 -0600, Jorge Rapalo wrote:
                    >
                    > While I understand the value of exploring the extremist
                    > behavior that
                    > probes at the boundaries of what is deemed moral within certain society
                    > patterns, I must confess I am often discomforted by the friendly approach
                    > of Delany to characters that are criminals, not to society per se, as a
                    > system of authority and hierarchy, but to plain other people. The casual
                    > portrayal of rapists (who make a methodology and almost profession of
                    > such abuse) sometimes strikes me as going beyond intellectual curiosity
                    > or desire to explore mindsets, into outright fascination. I have not given
                    > it the detailed reading and critical analysis it may need for accurate
                    > commentary, but my distaste lingers.
                    >
                    > On Mon, Oct 17, 2011 at 6:19 PM, Steve M wrote:
                    > > At 12:01 PM -0400 10/17/11, rdumain@...
                    > <mailto:rdumain%40autodidactproject.org> wrote:
                    > >> Delany, like Wright, is a highly civilzed man, though not a
                    > >> product of the dire circumstances of the latter, so that, whatever he
                    > >> has experienced in the Unlicensed Zone, he wouldn't do well with real
                    > >> criminals. He's probably been around thugs, as I have, and hopefully
                    > >> he'd be smart enough to see them as the enemy.
                    > >
                    > > Somehow, having read Heavenly Breakfast, and Time Square Red/Blue, I
                    > > doubt "enemy" or "thugs" are the words he would choose for the people
                    > > you characterize thus. I'm not saying he would embrace them as
                    > > comrades in arms--that seems equally unlikely. The thugs and enemy of
                    > > Times Square Red/Blue, such as they are, would be the financial and
                    > > real estate speculators who robbed the Times Square area of its
                    > > street life.
                    > >
                    > > You have always seemed to proceed from an essentially binary
                    > > conception of the world (and especially of types of people) that
                    > > seems frankly at odds with the the sort of complexity that seems to
                    > > energize Delany's work. The circumstances of Hasler's death in "The
                    > > Man Man" when finally revealed, make choosing clear "enemies" or
                    > > "thugs" problematic at best.
                    > >
                    > > And it's clear that the "thugs" of S"tars in My Pocket..." are the
                    > > Thant family--not the inscrutible xlv or even the assassin on Marq's
                    > > initial flight home. Indeed, Marq (and the book) see him as someone
                    > > to whom one should give a wide berth, but not the "enemy."
                    > >
                    > > At 12:01 PM -0400 10/17/11, rdumain@...
                    > <mailto:rdumain%40autodidactproject.org> wrote:
                    > >> Real criminality is not remotely
                    > >> oppositional.
                    > >
                    > > I think you also simplify a complex question here--one that Delany
                    > > explores in "Time Considered as a Helix of Semi-Precious Stones"
                    > > which suggests that most criminality (and by extension most art) is
                    > > not oppositional in any effective sense. It neither tries nor
                    > > succeeds in shaking up the social structures it weaves in and out of.
                    > > Indeed: It depends on the stability of those structures. Disruptive
                    > > criminality (and art) are intentionally (and sometimes effectively)
                    > > oppositional. The criminals who want to game systems are different
                    > > from those who want to destroy them. (This is how the Prohbition-era
                    > > rum-runners, who depended on Prohibition to keep prices and profits
                    > > high, are different from those who participated in the Underground
                    > > Railway for slaves, though both were criminal.)
                    > >
                    > > That is what Maud Hinkle is hinting at in "Time Considered..." And
                    > > while Delany's later work seems to move away from that simple
                    > > romantic view of the criminal, the changes are not so much to deny
                    > > the observations there as to simply deromanticize the criminal and
                    > > explore the ways in which criminality is in fact determined by the
                    > > structures of non-criminal society and necessary to and interwoven
                    > > with it. The smuggler in the Neveryon series is a criminal but
                    > > necessary--the legitimate markets would not function without him. His
                    > > role is determined, and the occasional prosecutions of smugglers are
                    > > meant not to eliminate the practice but to keep it in check at the
                    > > necessary level. Meanwhile Gorgik's disruptive criminality, once he
                    > > starts freeing slaves, makes him the object of active pursuit, until
                    > > the later Neveryon novels, when his role becomes integrated into and
                    > > necessary to those structures.
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > ------------------------------------
                    > >
                    > > == Posted to delany-list, hosted at yahoo groups ==
                    > > == A mailing list for the discussion of the works of Samuel R.
                    > > Delany. ==Yahoo! Groups Links
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    >
                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    >
                    >


                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • Steve M
                    Russell Blackford s essays were the only ones I had no use for in Ash of Stars. They seemed clueless. From my 1999 Amazon review: While one essay ( Debased
                    Message 9 of 13 , Oct 22, 2011
                    • 0 Attachment
                      Russell Blackford's essays were the only ones I had no use for in Ash
                      of Stars. They seemed clueless.

                      From my 1999 Amazon review:
                      "While one essay ("Debased and Lascivious?: Samuel R. Delany's Stars
                      in My Pocket Like Grains of Sand" by Russell Blackford) displays
                      nothing more than its author's ignorance of the realities of
                      contemporary urban gay life (wherein all of the social constructs
                      Blackford dismisses as unrealistic and unbelievable actually obtain
                      today), it is the exception in a volume that is otherwise
                      fascinating, revelatory and worthy of its challenging subject."

                      At 9:24 AM -0400 10/18/11, rdumain@... wrote:
                      >I have yet to respond to the previous poster, but this reminds me of
                      >one of the two essays on STARS IN MY POCKET LIKE GRAINS OF SAND,
                      >"Debased and Lascivious?" by Russell Blackford. Blackford addresses
                      >not only the question of moral assumptions but also the question of
                      >disgust. This clarifies for me the brilliance of what Delany has
                      >accomplished and where I part company. Literature is not real life, so
                      >one can't assume the author endorses what he writes about, but life is
                      >not neutral, it demands judgment and boundaries, and so I think we've
                      >reached the limit of what can be contemplated.
                      >
                      > On a more general note, I think that for thoughtful people who grew
                      >up before the Reagan era, we are living in a retrospective age,
                      >investigating and highlighting all the (different) assumptions of the
                      >past. I am more likely to read something of that than something
                      >futuristic, since (1) I don't think there is any future, (2) the
                      >distance between the future and the assumptions of hi tech media
                      >culture today is so minuscule that imagination has lost its function.
                      >
                      >On Tue, 18 Oct 2011 07:01:17 -0600, Jorge Rapalo wrote:
                      >
                      > While I understand the value of exploring the extremist
                      >behavior that
                      >probes at the boundaries of what is deemed moral within certain society
                      >patterns, I must confess I am often discomforted by the friendly approach
                      >of Delany to characters that are criminals, not to society per se, as a
                      >system of authority and hierarchy, but to plain other people. The casual
                      >portrayal of rapists (who make a methodology and almost profession of
                      >such abuse) sometimes strikes me as going beyond intellectual curiosity
                      >or desire to explore mindsets, into outright fascination. I have not given
                      >it the detailed reading and critical analysis it may need for accurate
                      >commentary, but my distaste lingers.
                      >
                      >On Mon, Oct 17, 2011 at 6:19 PM, Steve M wrote:
                      >> At 12:01 PM -0400 10/17/11, rdumain@... wrote:
                      >>> Delany, like Wright, is a highly civilzed man, though not a
                      >>> product of the dire circumstances of the latter, so that, whatever he
                      >>> has experienced in the Unlicensed Zone, he wouldn't do well with real
                      >>> criminals. He's probably been around thugs, as I have, and hopefully
                      >>> he'd be smart enough to see them as the enemy.
                      >>
                      >> Somehow, having read Heavenly Breakfast, and Time Square Red/Blue, I
                      >> doubt "enemy" or "thugs" are the words he would choose for the people
                      >> you characterize thus. I'm not saying he would embrace them as
                      >> comrades in arms--that seems equally unlikely. The thugs and enemy of
                      >> Times Square Red/Blue, such as they are, would be the financial and
                      >> real estate speculators who robbed the Times Square area of its
                      >> street life.
                      >>
                      >> You have always seemed to proceed from an essentially binary
                      >> conception of the world (and especially of types of people) that
                      >> seems frankly at odds with the the sort of complexity that seems to
                      >> energize Delany's work. The circumstances of Hasler's death in "The
                      >> Man Man" when finally revealed, make choosing clear "enemies" or
                      >> "thugs" problematic at best.
                      >>
                      >> And it's clear that the "thugs" of S"tars in My Pocket..." are the
                      >> Thant family--not the inscrutible xlv or even the assassin on Marq's
                      >> initial flight home. Indeed, Marq (and the book) see him as someone
                      >> to whom one should give a wide berth, but not the "enemy."
                      >>
                      >> At 12:01 PM -0400 10/17/11, rdumain@... wrote:
                      >>> Real criminality is not remotely
                      >>> oppositional.
                      >>
                      >> I think you also simplify a complex question here--one that Delany
                      >> explores in "Time Considered as a Helix of Semi-Precious Stones"
                      >> which suggests that most criminality (and by extension most art) is
                      >> not oppositional in any effective sense. It neither tries nor
                      >> succeeds in shaking up the social structures it weaves in and out of.
                      >> Indeed: It depends on the stability of those structures. Disruptive
                      >> criminality (and art) are intentionally (and sometimes effectively)
                      >> oppositional. The criminals who want to game systems are different
                      >> from those who want to destroy them. (This is how the Prohbition-era
                      >> rum-runners, who depended on Prohibition to keep prices and profits
                      >> high, are different from those who participated in the Underground
                      >> Railway for slaves, though both were criminal.)
                      >>
                      >> That is what Maud Hinkle is hinting at in "Time Considered..." And
                      >> while Delany's later work seems to move away from that simple
                      >> romantic view of the criminal, the changes are not so much to deny
                      >> the observations there as to simply deromanticize the criminal and
                      >> explore the ways in which criminality is in fact determined by the
                      >> structures of non-criminal society and necessary to and interwoven
                      >> with it. The smuggler in the Neveryon series is a criminal but
                      >> necessary--the legitimate markets would not function without him. His
                      >> role is determined, and the occasional prosecutions of smugglers are
                      >> meant not to eliminate the practice but to keep it in check at the
                      >> necessary level. Meanwhile Gorgik's disruptive criminality, once he
                      >> starts freeing slaves, makes him the object of active pursuit, until
                      >> the later Neveryon novels, when his role becomes integrated into and
                      >> necessary to those structures.
                      >>
                      >>
                      >> ------------------------------------
                      >>
                      >> == Posted to delany-list, hosted at yahoo groups ==
                      >> == A mailing list for the discussion of the works of Samuel R.
                      >> Delany. ==Yahoo! Groups Links
                      >>
                      >>
                      >>
                      >>
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >------------------------------------
                      >
                      >== Posted to delany-list, hosted at yahoo groups ==
                      >== A mailing list for the discussion of the works of Samuel R.
                      >Delany. ==Yahoo! Groups Links
                      >
                      >
                      >
                    • Steve M
                      ... Indeed: that cultural-political shift was one of the key real-world influences on the conflict between the Dyeths and the Thants in Stars in My Pocket.
                      Message 10 of 13 , Oct 22, 2011
                      • 0 Attachment
                        >I can't even remember what of his I've read if
                        >anything since the mid-'80s, which is when the cultural-political sea
                        >change inaugurated by the Reagan era congealed in its fully perceptible
                        >form.

                        Indeed: that cultural-political shift was one of the key real-world
                        influences on the conflict between the Dyeths and the Thants in Stars
                        in My Pocket.

                        It's been since 1999 that I read Asho of Stars. I shall have to pull
                        it out again.

                        >Also reminded of something I dislike about the
                        >lit crit crowd. People love to live dangerously from a safe distance,
                        >hence their tolerance.

                        It is breathtaking, how facile you are at dismissively stereotyping
                        whole groups of other people, presuming to know their heart of
                        hearts, as if confident indeed that they all share one heart.

                        Being a literary critic doesn't prevent you from indulging your kinks
                        or taking risks.

                        At the same time, pretty much everyone enjoys reading (or watching
                        movies) about people living riskier lives than their own (or lives
                        that are risky in different ways).

                        I should say that it's a good thing that there this world has more
                        lovers of murder mysteries than murderers, more readers of spy
                        thrillers than actual spies. Liking to read about people living life
                        on the edge doesn't require you to take risks yourself--even if you
                        are a critic--but it doesn't prevent it, either.



                        At 1:47 AM -0500 10/20/11, Ralph Dumain wrote:
                        >Duly noted that not all legally designatable as "criminals" are the
                        >same, or that those who aren't, should be.
                        >
                        >The farther I read in this book, the better I see the contours of what I
                        >knew, forgot, or missed in Delany. And regret that I haven't kept up.
                        >But also, I think of the transition between eras and generations. Delany
                        >was born in 1942, grew up in the '40s & '50s, and emerged into the world
                        >of the '60s and '70s. I can't even remember what of his I've read if
                        >anything since the mid-'80s, which is when the cultural-political sea
                        >change inaugurated by the Reagan era congealed in its fully perceptible
                        >form.
                        >
                        >But what about the world inherited by people born since then, who began
                        >where the previous generation or two left off? What is to be said now
                        >that wasn't said before?
                        >
                        >I've only one essay left to read, on Spencer's /Laws of Form/, which is
                        >probably what initially annoyed me when I glanced at it first picking up
                        >the book. We shall see. So far I like all the essays but one, "Delany's
                        >Dirt" by Ray Davis, which is about Delany's outre porno novels climaxing
                        >with /The Mad Man/. Davis is quite articulate in stating his position,
                        >but I'm not buying it. Also reminded of something I dislike about the
                        >lit crit crowd. People love to live dangerously from a safe distance,
                        >hence their tolerance. But actually, the only liberal, tolerant person
                        >is the one for whom nothing is personally at stake. That was 1995, a
                        >year before the anthology was published. Which means I'm a decade and a
                        >half out of date even with respect to this anthology. Yet, by then I had
                        >already given up on American culture before that. My priorities are
                        >quite different than what Mr. Davis deemed important. We shall see how
                        >things pan out should I ever find the time to catch up on what I've missed.
                        >
                        >
                        >On 10/18/2011 8:24 AM, rdumain@... wrote:
                        >>
                        >> I have yet to respond to the previous poster, but this reminds me of
                        >> one of the two essays on STARS IN MY POCKET LIKE GRAINS OF SAND,
                        >> "Debased and Lascivious?" by Russell Blackford. Blackford addresses
                        >> not only the question of moral assumptions but also the question of
                        >> disgust. This clarifies for me the brilliance of what Delany has
                        >> accomplished and where I part company. Literature is not real life, so
                        >> one can't assume the author endorses what he writes about, but life is
                        >> not neutral, it demands judgment and boundaries, and so I think we've
                        >> reached the limit of what can be contemplated.
                        >>
                        >> On a more general note, I think that for thoughtful people who grew
                        >> up before the Reagan era, we are living in a retrospective age,
                        >> investigating and highlighting all the (different) assumptions of the
                        >> past. I am more likely to read something of that than something
                        >> futuristic, since (1) I don't think there is any future, (2) the
                        >> distance between the future and the assumptions of hi tech media
                        >> culture today is so minuscule that imagination has lost its function.
                        >>
                        >> On Tue, 18 Oct 2011 07:01:17 -0600, Jorge Rapalo wrote:
                        >>
                        >> While I understand the value of exploring the extremist
                        >> behavior that
                        >> probes at the boundaries of what is deemed moral within certain society
                        >> patterns, I must confess I am often discomforted by the friendly approach
                        >> of Delany to characters that are criminals, not to society per se, as a
                        >> system of authority and hierarchy, but to plain other people. The casual
                        >> portrayal of rapists (who make a methodology and almost profession of
                        >> such abuse) sometimes strikes me as going beyond intellectual curiosity
                        >> or desire to explore mindsets, into outright fascination. I have not given
                        >> it the detailed reading and critical analysis it may need for accurate
                        >> commentary, but my distaste lingers.
                        >>
                        >> On Mon, Oct 17, 2011 at 6:19 PM, Steve M wrote:
                        >> > At 12:01 PM -0400 10/17/11, rdumain@...
                        >> <mailto:rdumain%40autodidactproject.org> wrote:
                        >> >> Delany, like Wright, is a highly civilzed man, though not a
                        >> >> product of the dire circumstances of the latter, so that, whatever he
                        >> >> has experienced in the Unlicensed Zone, he wouldn't do well with real
                        >> >> criminals. He's probably been around thugs, as I have, and hopefully
                        >> >> he'd be smart enough to see them as the enemy.
                        >> >
                        >> > Somehow, having read Heavenly Breakfast, and Time Square Red/Blue, I
                        >> > doubt "enemy" or "thugs" are the words he would choose for the people
                        >> > you characterize thus. I'm not saying he would embrace them as
                        >> > comrades in arms--that seems equally unlikely. The thugs and enemy of
                        >> > Times Square Red/Blue, such as they are, would be the financial and
                        >> > real estate speculators who robbed the Times Square area of its
                        >> > street life.
                        >> >
                        >> > You have always seemed to proceed from an essentially binary
                        >> > conception of the world (and especially of types of people) that
                        >> > seems frankly at odds with the the sort of complexity that seems to
                        >> > energize Delany's work. The circumstances of Hasler's death in "The
                        >> > Man Man" when finally revealed, make choosing clear "enemies" or
                        >> > "thugs" problematic at best.
                        >> >
                        >> > And it's clear that the "thugs" of S"tars in My Pocket..." are the
                        >> > Thant family--not the inscrutible xlv or even the assassin on Marq's
                        >> > initial flight home. Indeed, Marq (and the book) see him as someone
                        >> > to whom one should give a wide berth, but not the "enemy."
                        >> >
                        >> > At 12:01 PM -0400 10/17/11, rdumain@...
                        >> <mailto:rdumain%40autodidactproject.org> wrote:
                        >> >> Real criminality is not remotely
                        >> >> oppositional.
                        >> >
                        >> > I think you also simplify a complex question here--one that Delany
                        >> > explores in "Time Considered as a Helix of Semi-Precious Stones"
                        >> > which suggests that most criminality (and by extension most art) is
                        >> > not oppositional in any effective sense. It neither tries nor
                        >> > succeeds in shaking up the social structures it weaves in and out of.
                        >> > Indeed: It depends on the stability of those structures. Disruptive
                        >> > criminality (and art) are intentionally (and sometimes effectively)
                        >> > oppositional. The criminals who want to game systems are different
                        >> > from those who want to destroy them. (This is how the Prohbition-era
                        >> > rum-runners, who depended on Prohibition to keep prices and profits
                        >> > high, are different from those who participated in the Underground
                        >> > Railway for slaves, though both were criminal.)
                        >> >
                        >> > That is what Maud Hinkle is hinting at in "Time Considered..." And
                        >> > while Delany's later work seems to move away from that simple
                        >> > romantic view of the criminal, the changes are not so much to deny
                        >> > the observations there as to simply deromanticize the criminal and
                        >> > explore the ways in which criminality is in fact determined by the
                        >> > structures of non-criminal society and necessary to and interwoven
                        >> > with it. The smuggler in the Neveryon series is a criminal but
                        >> > necessary--the legitimate markets would not function without him. His
                        >> > role is determined, and the occasional prosecutions of smugglers are
                        >> > meant not to eliminate the practice but to keep it in check at the
                        >> > necessary level. Meanwhile Gorgik's disruptive criminality, once he
                        >> > starts freeing slaves, makes him the object of active pursuit, until
                        >> > the later Neveryon novels, when his role becomes integrated into and
                        >> > necessary to those structures.
                        >> >
                        >> >
                        >> > ------------------------------------
                        >> >
                        >> > == Posted to delany-list, hosted at yahoo groups ==
                        >> > == A mailing list for the discussion of the works of Samuel R.
                        >> > Delany. ==Yahoo! Groups Links
                        >> >
                        >> >
                        >> >
                        >> >
                        >>
                        >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        >>
                        >>
                        >
                        >
                        >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        >
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                      • Jay Schuster
                        ... One person s distaste is another s delicacy. And phrased that way, certain stories within _Hogg_ and _The Mad Man_ have even more meaning... -- Jay -- Jay
                        Message 11 of 13 , Oct 24, 2011
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                          On 10/18/11 9:01 AM, Jorge Rapalo wrote:
                          > While I understand the value of exploring the extremist behavior that
                          > probes at the boundaries of what is deemed moral within certain society
                          > patterns, I must confess I am often discomforted by the friendly approach
                          > of Delany to characters that are criminals, not to society per se, as a
                          > system of authority and hierarchy, but to plain other people. The casual
                          > portrayal of rapists (who make a methodology and almost profession of
                          > such abuse) sometimes strikes me as going beyond intellectual curiosity
                          > or desire to explore mindsets, into outright fascination. I have not given
                          > it the detailed reading and critical analysis it may need for accurate
                          > commentary, but my distaste lingers.

                          One person's distaste is another's delicacy. And phrased that way,
                          certain stories within _Hogg_ and _The Mad Man_ have even more meaning...

                          -- Jay
                          --
                          Jay Schuster <jay@...>
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