Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Re: [delany-list] Digest Number 760

Expand Messages
  • Wade T Smith
    ... I m sure someone here has a better handle on the Disch/Delany split, as all I m aware of is a former friendship gone bitterly bad. Sounds like he didn t
    Message 1 of 9 , Sep 5 7:55 AM
    • 0 Attachment
      On Sep 05, 2005, at 06:55:21, delany-list@yahoogroups.com wrote:

      > And from someone as putatively bright as Disch.

      I'm sure someone here has a better handle on the Disch/Delany split,
      as all I'm aware of is a former friendship gone bitterly bad.

      Sounds like he didn't even read Mad Man, but, possibly, only skimmed
      the addenda of Neveryona.

      - Wade
    • Anna Yudovin
      ... Yes, if there is indeed someone better informed, please educate the rest of us. I was only aware of a friendship... And I would agree with you, Wade, he
      Message 2 of 9 , Sep 8 10:58 AM
      • 0 Attachment
        > I'm sure someone here has a better handle on the
        > Disch/Delany split,
        > as all I'm aware of is a former friendship gone
        > bitterly bad.

        Yes, if there is indeed someone better informed,
        please educate the rest of us. I was only aware of a
        friendship...

        And I would agree with you, Wade, he must not have
        read the whole thing. There's no way to misunderstand
        the book quite so badly, whether one is as bright as
        Disch or not. The Mad Man is a comparatively easy read
        in my mind (which in no way detracts from the
        excitement though!).

        Anna

        --- Wade T Smith <skepticus@...> wrote:

        >
        > On Sep 05, 2005, at 06:55:21,
        > delany-list@yahoogroups.com wrote:
        >
        > > And from someone as putatively bright as Disch.
        >
        > I'm sure someone here has a better handle on the
        > Disch/Delany split,
        > as all I'm aware of is a former friendship gone
        > bitterly bad.
        >
        > Sounds like he didn't even read Mad Man, but,
        > possibly, only skimmed
        > the addenda of Neveryona.
        >
        > - Wade
        >
        >


        __________________________________________________
        Do You Yahoo!?
        Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
        http://mail.yahoo.com
      • Terence Enright
        Did everyone know Delany wrote an entire *book* about Disch? That s crazy. I m reading Disch for the first time (that s how I stumbled on this little bit of
        Message 3 of 9 , Sep 8 8:35 PM
        • 0 Attachment
          Did everyone know Delany wrote an entire *book* about Disch? That's crazy. I'm reading Disch for the first time (that's how I stumbled on this little bit of animus) and I must say he's very good.

          But I'm very intrigued by the idea that HIV doesn't lead to AIDS being at least a plausible reading of one of Delany's Neveryona series, as I haven't gotten to them yet. Still, I doubt very much it even approaches Atlantis.

          Anna Yudovin <animus_est@...> wrote:
          > I'm sure someone here has a better handle on the
          > Disch/Delany split,
          > as all I'm aware of is a former friendship gone
          > bitterly bad.

          Yes, if there is indeed someone better informed,
          please educate the rest of us. I was only aware of a
          friendship...

          And I would agree with you, Wade, he must not have
          read the whole thing. There's no way to misunderstand
          the book quite so badly, whether one is as bright as
          Disch or not. The Mad Man is a comparatively easy read
          in my mind (which in no way detracts from the
          excitement though!).

          Anna

          --- Wade T Smith <skepticus@...> wrote:

          >
          > On Sep 05, 2005, at 06:55:21,
          > delany-list@yahoogroups.com wrote:
          >
          > > And from someone as putatively bright as Disch.
          >
          > I'm sure someone here has a better handle on the
          > Disch/Delany split,
          > as all I'm aware of is a former friendship gone
          > bitterly bad.
          >
          > Sounds like he didn't even read Mad Man, but,
          > possibly, only skimmed
          > the addenda of Neveryona.
          >
          > - Wade
          >
          >


          __________________________________________________
          Do You Yahoo!?
          Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
          http://mail.yahoo.com


          == Posted to delany-list, hosted at onelist^Wegroups^Wyahoo ==
          == A mailing list for the discussion of the works of Samuel R. Delany. ==



          SPONSORED LINKS
          Writing book Writing a book Writing book for child course Writing a non fiction book

          ---------------------------------
          YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS


          Visit your group "delany-list" on the web.

          To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
          delany-list-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

          Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.


          ---------------------------------





          __________________________________________________
          Do You Yahoo!?
          Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
          http://mail.yahoo.com

          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Eli Bishop
          I haven t read it recently but in my opinion, no, there aren t any. What I meant about Disch s choice of targets is that when there s something bothering him
          Message 4 of 9 , Sep 11 6:10 PM
          • 0 Attachment
            I haven't read it recently but in my opinion, no, there aren't any.
            What I meant about Disch's choice of targets is that when there's
            something bothering him about an author, he'll bring up that thing in
            the context of whatever book is at hand, even if it doesn't apply to
            that one at all. Although in this case, I can't think of anything in
            Delany that justified that.

            Eli

            --- In delany-list@yahoogroups.com, "Guy_Fawkes99" <guy_fawkes99@y...>
            wrote:
            >
            > That's interesting, but can it possibly be construed to apply here?
            > Are there elements of Mad Man that *do* suggest what Disch says they
            > do?

            > >>The result often seems as if he really
            > > hadn't read the work in question, but I think it's more that he's
            > more
            > > interested in expressing the things that bother him than in choosing
            > > targets that are a good fit. (The part in Dreams dealing with
            > Theodore
            > > Sturgeon is a slight exception in that it's not particularly hostile
            > > *and* it says virtually nothing at all about Sturgeon's work; it
            > just
            > > tells a story about how Sturgeon and his wife once invited Disch to
            > a
            > > three-way.)
          • Eric Solstein
            Is an author s personal life relevant to the evaluation of their work and what does and doesn t apply? When Disch brings up the invitation to the three-way,
            Message 5 of 9 , Sep 12 7:38 AM
            • 0 Attachment
              Is an author's personal life relevant to the evaluation of their work
              and what does and doesn't apply? When Disch brings up the invitation
              to the "three-way," does it not shed some light on Sturgeon, the
              apostle of "love," author of numerous tales of alternative loving?
              When examining Dick, don't his insecurities, self-deceptions and
              conscious myth-building provide insight, whether one is comfortable
              with them or not? Occasionally, in the case of Disch, we are getting
              something in addition to criticism, first hand observations.

              -Eric


              On Sep 11, 2005, at 9:10 PM, Eli Bishop wrote:

              >
              > I haven't read it recently but in my opinion, no, there aren't any.
              > What I meant about Disch's choice of targets is that when there's
              > something bothering him about an author, he'll bring up that thing in
              > the context of whatever book is at hand, even if it doesn't apply to
              > that one at all. Although in this case, I can't think of anything in
              > Delany that justified that.
              >
              > Eli
              >
              > --- In delany-list@yahoogroups.com, "Guy_Fawkes99" <guy_fawkes99@y...>
              > wrote:
              >
              >>
              >> That's interesting, but can it possibly be construed to apply here?
              >> Are there elements of Mad Man that *do* suggest what Disch says they
              >> do?
              >>
              >
              >
              >>>> The result often seems as if he really
              >>>>
              >>> hadn't read the work in question, but I think it's more that he's
              >>>
              >> more
              >>
              >>> interested in expressing the things that bother him than in choosing
              >>> targets that are a good fit. (The part in Dreams dealing with
              >>>
              >> Theodore
              >>
              >>> Sturgeon is a slight exception in that it's not particularly hostile
              >>> *and* it says virtually nothing at all about Sturgeon's work; it
              >>>
              >> just
              >>
              >>> tells a story about how Sturgeon and his wife once invited Disch to
              >>>
              >> a
              >>
              >>> three-way.)
              >>>
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------
              > ~-->
              > Life without art & music? Keep the arts alive today at Network for
              > Good!
              > http://us.click.yahoo.com/FXrMlA/dnQLAA/Zx0JAA/DtIolB/TM
              > --------------------------------------------------------------------
              > ~->
              >
              > == Posted to delany-list, hosted at onelist^Wegroups^Wyahoo ==
              > == A mailing list for the discussion of the works of Samuel R.
              > Delany. ==
              > Yahoo! Groups Links
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
            • Eli Bishop
              ... work ... invitation ... loving? ... comfortable ... getting ... Of course! I eat that stuff up. The reasons I was frustrated with it in those two cases
              Message 6 of 9 , Sep 12 9:42 AM
              • 0 Attachment
                --- In delany-list@yahoogroups.com, Eric Solstein <digmez@e...> wrote:
                > Is an author's personal life relevant to the evaluation of their
                work
                > and what does and doesn't apply? When Disch brings up the
                invitation
                > to the "three-way," does it not shed some light on Sturgeon, the
                > apostle of "love," author of numerous tales of alternative
                loving?
                > When examining Dick, don't his insecurities, self-deceptions and
                > conscious myth-building provide insight, whether one is
                comfortable
                > with them or not? Occasionally, in the case of Disch, we are
                getting
                > something in addition to criticism, first hand observations.

                Of course! I eat that stuff up. The reasons I was frustrated with
                it in those two cases are, first, there's so much else I'd like to
                know about Sturgeon and his contributions to the field - since
                Disch's book was ostensibly a survey of SF in American culture,
                especially in Sturgeon's era - and there was very little except for
                that anecdote, after which Disch abruptly moved on in a way that made
                *him* sound a bit uncomfortable with the subject.

                Second, in the PKD documentary, Disch doesn't give any support for
                his statements; he doesn't claim any personal knowledge of whether,
                for instance, Dick really bought horsemeat during hard times. He
                just asserted that Dick was an untrustworthy, self-pitying guy, and
                went so far as to imitate him hypothetically whining "boo hoo, poor
                me". Maybe something was left on the cutting-room floor in that
                case, but I didn't feel it gave me much insight into anyone's
                personality except Thomas Disch's.

                Eli
              • Eric Solstein
                I am not sure that the premise of Disch s Dreams.... should create too much of an expectation for a searching exploration of Sturgeon. Ted was more of a
                Message 7 of 9 , Sep 13 6:24 PM
                • 0 Attachment
                  I am not sure that the premise of Disch's "Dreams...." should create
                  too much of an expectation for a searching exploration of Sturgeon.
                  Ted was more of a writer's writer, certainly an odd man out in the
                  genre, who was ahead of his time and then in the grip of a massive
                  writer's block when the world finally caught up. In any case, it is
                  always risky to impose one's expectations on a book.

                  I may be able to offer you some satisfaction re: Sturgeon,
                  eventually. He is one of the main characters in the documentary I am
                  editing, "The Real Trout." I thought I would be done long ago, but
                  maybe before too long....

                  And speaking of documentaries, I believe the one you have been
                  referring to was part of the Arena series, from the BBC, I think.
                  Actually quite a good doc, and it is not easy to do writers on film.
                  And you are certainly correct, the interview subject has little or no
                  control of what will be used and how, so the cutting room floor
                  undoubtedly is full of intriguing bits. When I interviewed Disch (or
                  Delany for that matter, and both for a different project), the tapes
                  ran to about four hours. Can you imagine... please don't.

                  Let me add, that Disch's representation of Dick, is not an uncommon
                  one among his peers.

                  -Eric


                  On Sep 12, 2005, at 12:42 PM, Eli Bishop wrote:

                  > Of course! I eat that stuff up. The reasons I was frustrated with
                  > it in those two cases are, first, there's so much else I'd like to
                  > know about Sturgeon and his contributions to the field - since
                  > Disch's book was ostensibly a survey of SF in American culture,
                  > especially in Sturgeon's era - and there was very little except for
                  > that anecdote, after which Disch abruptly moved on in a way that made
                  > *him* sound a bit uncomfortable with the subject.
                  >
                  > Second, in the PKD documentary, Disch doesn't give any support for
                  > his statements; he doesn't claim any personal knowledge of whether,
                  > for instance, Dick really bought horsemeat during hard times. He
                  > just asserted that Dick was an untrustworthy, self-pitying guy, and
                  > went so far as to imitate him hypothetically whining "boo hoo, poor
                  > me". Maybe something was left on the cutting-room floor in that
                  > case, but I didn't feel it gave me much insight into anyone's
                  > personality except Thomas Disch's.
                  >
                  > Eli
                  > --- In delany-list@yahoogroups.com, Eric Solstein <digmez@e...> wrote:
                  >
                  >> Is an author's personal life relevant to the evaluation of their
                  >>
                  > work
                  >
                  >> and what does and doesn't apply? When Disch brings up the
                  >>
                  > invitation
                  >
                  >> to the "three-way," does it not shed some light on Sturgeon, the
                  >> apostle of "love," author of numerous tales of alternative
                  >>
                  > loving?
                  >
                  >> When examining Dick, don't his insecurities, self-deceptions and
                  >> conscious myth-building provide insight, whether one is
                  >>
                  > comfortable
                  >
                  >> with them or not? Occasionally, in the case of Disch, we are
                  >>
                  > getting
                  >
                  >> something in addition to criticism, first hand observations.
                  >>
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------
                  > ~-->
                  > Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your
                  > home page
                  > http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/DtIolB/TM
                  > --------------------------------------------------------------------
                  > ~->
                  >
                  > == Posted to delany-list, hosted at onelist^Wegroups^Wyahoo ==
                  > == A mailing list for the discussion of the works of Samuel R.
                  > Delany. ==
                  > Yahoo! Groups Links
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                • Eric Solstein
                  Terence, I do expect to create a DVD version eventually, but it may take a while. Presently, I am revamping my edit system and preparing to put a permanent
                  Message 8 of 9 , Sep 14 7:29 AM
                  • 0 Attachment
                    Terence,

                    I do expect to create a DVD version eventually, but it may take a
                    while. Presently, I am revamping my edit system and preparing to put
                    a permanent heater in my library/edit room, up here in my hillside
                    house in New York's Catskills it gets mighty cold, mighty early.
                    Actually couldn't work last Winter.

                    But "The Real Trout" is my first priority. I expect some attention
                    for that project, which will permit "Atlantis" and my extant DVDs to
                    maybe share a bit of buzz. As well, I am preparing a trailer for
                    "Atlantis" in hopes of selling it to Logo, the gay cable network. I
                    will keep the list informed.

                    -Eric


                    On Sep 13, 2005, at 10:14 PM, Terence Enright wrote:

                    > Eric, do you ever think about doing a DVD of Atlantis? You could
                    > put all that snipped material as extra. I know I'd buy a copy.
                    >
                    > Eric Solstein <digmez@...> wrote:I am not sure that the
                    > premise of Disch's "Dreams...." should create
                    > too much of an expectation for a searching exploration of Sturgeon.
                    > Ted was more of a writer's writer, certainly an odd man out in the
                    > genre, who was ahead of his time and then in the grip of a massive
                    > writer's block when the world finally caught up. In any case, it is
                    > always risky to impose one's expectations on a book.
                    >
                    > I may be able to offer you some satisfaction re: Sturgeon,
                    > eventually. He is one of the main characters in the documentary I am
                    > editing, "The Real Trout." I thought I would be done long ago, but
                    > maybe before too long....
                    >
                    > And speaking of documentaries, I believe the one you have been
                    > referring to was part of the Arena series, from the BBC, I think.
                    > Actually quite a good doc, and it is not easy to do writers on film.
                    > And you are certainly correct, the interview subject has little or no
                    > control of what will be used and how, so the cutting room floor
                    > undoubtedly is full of intriguing bits. When I interviewed Disch (or
                    > Delany for that matter, and both for a different project), the tapes
                    > ran to about four hours. Can you imagine... please don't.
                    >
                    > Let me add, that Disch's representation of Dick, is not an uncommon
                    > one among his peers.
                    >
                    > -Eric
                    >
                    >
                    > On Sep 12, 2005, at 12:42 PM, Eli Bishop wrote:
                    >
                    >
                    >> Of course! I eat that stuff up. The reasons I was frustrated with
                    >> it in those two cases are, first, there's so much else I'd like to
                    >> know about Sturgeon and his contributions to the field - since
                    >> Disch's book was ostensibly a survey of SF in American culture,
                    >> especially in Sturgeon's era - and there was very little except for
                    >> that anecdote, after which Disch abruptly moved on in a way that made
                    >> *him* sound a bit uncomfortable with the subject.
                    >>
                    >> Second, in the PKD documentary, Disch doesn't give any support for
                    >> his statements; he doesn't claim any personal knowledge of whether,
                    >> for instance, Dick really bought horsemeat during hard times. He
                    >> just asserted that Dick was an untrustworthy, self-pitying guy, and
                    >> went so far as to imitate him hypothetically whining "boo hoo, poor
                    >> me". Maybe something was left on the cutting-room floor in that
                    >> case, but I didn't feel it gave me much insight into anyone's
                    >> personality except Thomas Disch's.
                    >>
                    >> Eli
                    >> --- In delany-list@yahoogroups.com, Eric Solstein <digmez@e...>
                    >> wrote:
                    >>
                    >>
                    >>> Is an author's personal life relevant to the evaluation of their
                    >>>
                    >>>
                    >> work
                    >>
                    >>
                    >>> and what does and doesn't apply? When Disch brings up the
                    >>>
                    >>>
                    >> invitation
                    >>
                    >>
                    >>> to the "three-way," does it not shed some light on Sturgeon, the
                    >>> apostle of "love," author of numerous tales of alternative
                    >>>
                    >>>
                    >> loving?
                    >>
                    >>
                    >>> When examining Dick, don't his insecurities, self-deceptions and
                    >>> conscious myth-building provide insight, whether one is
                    >>>
                    >>>
                    >> comfortable
                    >>
                    >>
                    >>> with them or not? Occasionally, in the case of Disch, we are
                    >>>
                    >>>
                    >> getting
                    >>
                    >>
                    >>> something in addition to criticism, first hand observations.
                    >>>
                    >>>
                    >>
                    >>
                    >>
                    >>
                    >>
                    >>
                    >> ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------
                    >> ~-->
                    >> Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your
                    >> home page
                    >> http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/DtIolB/TM
                    >> --------------------------------------------------------------------
                    >> ~->
                    >>
                    >> == Posted to delany-list, hosted at onelist^Wegroups^Wyahoo ==
                    >> == A mailing list for the discussion of the works of Samuel R.
                    >> Delany. ==
                    >> Yahoo! Groups Links
                    >>
                    >>
                    >>
                    >>
                    >>
                    >>
                    >>
                    >>
                    >>
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > == Posted to delany-list, hosted at onelist^Wegroups^Wyahoo ==
                    > == A mailing list for the discussion of the works of Samuel R.
                    > Delany. ==
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > ---------------------------------
                    > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
                    >
                    >
                    > Visit your group "delany-list" on the web.
                    >
                    > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                    > delany-list-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                    >
                    > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
                    > Service.
                    >
                    >
                    > ---------------------------------
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > ---------------------------------
                    > Yahoo! for Good
                    > Click here to donate to the Hurricane Katrina relief effort.
                    >
                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------
                    > ~-->
                    > Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your
                    > home page
                    > http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/DtIolB/TM
                    > --------------------------------------------------------------------
                    > ~->
                    >
                    > == Posted to delany-list, hosted at onelist^Wegroups^Wyahoo ==
                    > == A mailing list for the discussion of the works of Samuel R.
                    > Delany. ==
                    > Yahoo! Groups Links
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                  • Eli Bishop
                    ... True - although I must say that not every negative reaction to part of a book should necessarily be ascribed to the reader having the wrong attitude. :-)
                    Message 9 of 9 , Sep 14 10:37 AM
                    • 0 Attachment
                      --- In delany-list@yahoogroups.com, Eric Solstein <digmez@e...> wrote:
                      > In any case, it is always risky to impose one's expectations on
                      > a book.

                      True - although I must say that not every negative reaction to part of
                      a book should necessarily be ascribed to the reader having the wrong
                      attitude. :-) As I said, I liked the book, AND found some of it
                      irritating.

                      > I may be able to offer you some satisfaction re: Sturgeon,
                      > eventually. He is one of the main characters in the documentary
                      > I am editing, "The Real Trout."

                      That's great news! Except now I'll be in suspense for a while, I guess.

                      best,
                      Eli
                    Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.