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Re: [dejavu-l] Exported IDML (CS 5.5) throws mismatched tag and InDesign unable to open

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  • Gudmund Areskoug
    ... To InDesign, text placed before or after initial/end codes can be a big problem. One reason why it is so finicky about it is that IDML files consist of
    Message 1 of 5 , Apr 29 8:00 AM
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      On 2012-04-28 22:02, classytranslator wrote:
      > I exported an IDML file from InDesign CS5.5 (Windows), worked on it
      > in DVX2 (8.0.533), then exported it. I get "mismatched tag" error and
      > InDesign CS5.5 refuses to open it.
      >
      > I checked for erroneous codes in DVX2. Nothing missing, except that
      > text had to be placed before a code in several instances

      To InDesign, text placed before or after initial/end codes can be a big
      problem.

      One reason why it is so finicky about it is that IDML files consist of
      several XML files, each XML file a "story". This would perhaps be fine
      if the stories didn't sometimes end and start in mid-sentence.

      > Any solutions?

      Just being very vigilant about the codes. Run Shift+Ctrl+F8, don't rely
      on the export to catch such errors.

      Any formatting/layout instance that just isn't fixable inside DV must be
      fixed in InDesign.

      There's no way around it until the filters are rewritten to allow row
      joining etc. between those XML stories, which would amount to making a
      mechanism for joining segments situated in different files. While
      possible, I understand that this poses certain problems.

      I'm not sure about whether the problem of text that needs to be before
      an initial code in a segment, or after an ending code in a segment is
      solvable inside DV. Perhaps it is, in some instances, but it would a)
      depend on the underlying tag structure in the XML files and b) AFAIR
      require breaking up codes that we may probably want rolled into one
      everywhere else, to reduce code clutter, thus requiring conditions, and
      something to hinge those conditions on inside the XML files (tags again...).

      BR,
      Gudmund
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      This message and any replies to it is scanned by http://www.fra.se
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    • classytranslator
      Gudmund, I am trying to understand the last big paragraph you wrote, but I can t. I did get that an IDML file is made up of several XML files, and that putting
      Message 2 of 5 , Apr 30 8:59 AM
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        Gudmund,

        I am trying to understand the last big paragraph you wrote, but I can't.

        I did get that an IDML file is made up of several XML files, and that putting text in front of a code, when it does not look like that in the original, can spell trouble.

        I have no problem fixing the layout issues in InDesign after successfully opening the IDML file. What I've noticed is that the IDML filters in DVX and DVX2 are not the same, as they parse the codes differently (or work slightly differently with the IDML structure). How come? The same IDML opened in DVX2 shows many more codes and interphrase codes than DVX. I find it easier to work in DVX than in DVX2 in this regard, as I don't have to dance around the codes interspersed in a sentence.

        In my second attempt (in DVX this time), I kept an eye on code order, to keep the correct sequence. The export operation was succesfull on first try. Caveat: some headings disappeared, but I just replaced them.

        Mario Chávez, Translator



        --- In dejavu-l@yahoogroups.com, Gudmund Areskoug <gudmundpublic@...> wrote:
        >
        > On 2012-04-28 22:02, classytranslator wrote:
        > > I exported an IDML file from InDesign CS5.5 (Windows), worked on it
        > > in DVX2 (8.0.533), then exported it. I get "mismatched tag" error and
        > > InDesign CS5.5 refuses to open it.
        > >
        > > I checked for erroneous codes in DVX2. Nothing missing, except that
        > > text had to be placed before a code in several instances
        >
        > To InDesign, text placed before or after initial/end codes can be a big
        > problem.
        >
        > One reason why it is so finicky about it is that IDML files consist of
        > several XML files, each XML file a "story". This would perhaps be fine
        > if the stories didn't sometimes end and start in mid-sentence.
        >
        > > Any solutions?
        >
        > Just being very vigilant about the codes. Run Shift+Ctrl+F8, don't rely
        > on the export to catch such errors.
        >
        > Any formatting/layout instance that just isn't fixable inside DV must be
        > fixed in InDesign.
        >
        > There's no way around it until the filters are rewritten to allow row
        > joining etc. between those XML stories, which would amount to making a
        > mechanism for joining segments situated in different files. While
        > possible, I understand that this poses certain problems.
        >
        > I'm not sure about whether the problem of text that needs to be before
        > an initial code in a segment, or after an ending code in a segment is
        > solvable inside DV. Perhaps it is, in some instances, but it would a)
        > depend on the underlying tag structure in the XML files and b) AFAIR
        > require breaking up codes that we may probably want rolled into one
        > everywhere else, to reduce code clutter, thus requiring conditions, and
        > something to hinge those conditions on inside the XML files (tags again...).
        >
        > BR,
        > Gudmund
        > --
        > This message and any replies to it is scanned by http://www.fra.se
        > Please direct any complaints about this to them.
        >
      • Rob Laumen
        Hi Mario, ... It might be worth discussing this issue with the developer. It would help if you are able to supply an IDML that can be used for testing
        Message 3 of 5 , Apr 30 10:41 AM
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          Hi Mario,

          > What I've noticed is that the IDML filters in DVX and DVX2 are not the same, as they parse the codes differently (or work slightly differently with the IDML structure). How come? The same IDML opened in DVX2 shows many more codes and interphrase codes than DVX. I find it easier to work in DVX than in DVX2 in this regard, as I don't have to dance around the codes interspersed in a sentence.

          It might be worth discussing this issue with the developer. It would
          help if you are able to supply an IDML that can be used for testing
          purposes.

          Best regards,

          Rob


          --
          Rob Laumen
          EN -> NL-NL translator
          Specialising in IT translations (hardware, software,
          peripherals, internet, networking, marketing collateral, etc.)
          www.rob-laumen.nl / http://nl.linkedin.com/in/roblaumen
        • Gudmund Areskoug
          ... I ll try again. 1. The XML structure can sometimes make it impossible to solve some problems inside DV, because your language needs text to go outside or
          Message 4 of 5 , May 1, 2012
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            On 2012-04-30 17:59, classytranslator wrote:
            > Gudmund,
            >
            > I am trying to understand the last big paragraph you wrote, but I
            > can't.

            I'll try again.

            1. The XML structure can sometimes make it impossible to solve some
            problems inside DV, because your language needs text to go outside or
            between codes where IDML can't handle it when it's put there through the
            XML files.

            DV has no choice but to insert the text into the XML files, and they
            don't accomodate some things without editing the tags themselves.

            This would mean editing the internal structure in the XML files *and*
            the structure the XML files must fit into to form an IDML file.

            Especially when XML files start or end with a code = a set of tags that
            you can't put text before or after, respectively. Dealing with this is a
            typical example where I think such editing of the internal structure
            would become necessary.

            And this is rather complicated.

            2. People don't want code clutter, so the DVX2 filters were in general
            made to do away with some of it, but also to make the structure more
            transparent, which should allow for more flexibility. For instance, if a
            text snippet in a segment is bold and italic, you could roll up the tags
            for this into one code pair.

            But then you can't as a translator make part of that text snippet bold,
            and part of it bold and italic (depending on which is the outermost tag
            pair). You could do that if there was one code pair for each formatting.

            If you now want DV to treat a set of initial (ending) codes that
            outwardly look the same as a set of codes inside the segment
            differently, because we're dealing with an initial (ending) code, you
            need some kind of "if this tag is at the beginning or end of a segment,
            then..." condition in the filter.

            > I have no problem fixing the layout issues in InDesign after
            > successfully opening the IDML file. What I've noticed is that the
            > IDML filters in DVX and DVX2 are not the same, as they parse the
            > codes differently (or work slightly differently with the IDML
            > structure). How come?

            See above, and ask Daniel. I guess he might be interested in seeing
            sample files from you where you can point to the difference. Either he
            has an explanation for why it is treated differently, or he can use the
            file to improve the DVX2 filter.

            > The same IDML opened in DVX2 shows many more
            > codes and interphrase codes than DVX. I find it easier to work in DVX
            > than in DVX2 in this regard, as I don't have to dance around the
            > codes interspersed in a sentence.
            >
            > In my second attempt (in DVX this time), I kept an eye on code order,
            > to keep the correct sequence. The export operation was succesfull on
            > first try. Caveat: some headings disappeared, but I just replaced
            > them.

            FWIW, this caveat of yours can be part of or even the whole reason for
            the difference, and has the potential of making it very difficult to
            fix. I would certainly not want any part of my precious text to just
            disappear.

            In the end, what really needs to be done is to have InDesign and those
            using it use *text flow*, so that we don't need to see text massacred
            into separate "stories" the way we do now.

            To some extent, fixing these filters is a bit like propping up an
            alcoholic so that he can drive the car despite being too drunk to even
            sit straight...

            BR,
            Gudmund
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