Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Re: [deedsnotwordsd20] Roll Call

Expand Messages
  • Orion
    yes, i ve read through it. i suspect that we our philosophies of what the power ought to do are so different than we re really creating two different powers
    Message 1 of 10 , Jul 5, 2004
    View Source
    • 0 Attachment
      yes, i've read through it. i suspect that we our philosophies of what
      the power ought to do are so different than we're really creating two
      different powers entirely, but that's ok!

      i'm currently throwing something together that is mostly for the
      specific purposes of allowing the purchase of Super-Tech/Magic Items
      with EP instead of XP and money. it'll include weapons and armour, but
      that won't be the focus.

      i'll read through yours more carefully later. it's 1am for me (Alberta
      time), so i have to get to sleep soon.

      later.

      -Orion

      "You're born naked and everything else is drag."
      -RuPaul


      Palmer of the Turks wrote:
      > On 5 Jul 2004, at 0:47, Orion wrote:
      >
      >
      >>thanks for responding, everyone. i hope that scott comes
      >>back some day and we can get back to working on official
      >>additions to the system,
      >
      >
      > At least he was always open to that. I know at least one recommendation I made got
      > into 1.1
      >
      > Read my Incredible Item stuff yet?
      >
      > ====================
      > The above email was brought to you by Shinra Online
      > http://www.shinraonline.com
      > Click it... you know you want to.
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > Yahoo! Groups Links
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
    • Palmer of the Turks
      ... Indeed. Mine is aimed at a workable, intelligent version of the Incredible Item power, which simply makes magic-equivalent weapons and armors. I wasn t
      Message 2 of 10 , Jul 5, 2004
      View Source
      • 0 Attachment
        On 5 Jul 2004, at 1:07, Orion wrote:

        > yes, i've read through it. i suspect that our philosophies
        > of what the power ought to do are so different than we're
        > really creating two different powers entirely, but that's ok!

        Indeed. Mine is aimed at a workable, intelligent version of the "Incredible Item" power,
        which simply makes magic-equivalent weapons and armors. I wasn't looking at a
        "Device-based power for EP" solution.

        I think the best way to do that would be to come up with a simple Device DC into EP
        cost formula.

        The key point in such a formula is that 1 EP = +2 DC, and the base DC for a normal
        device is 10. And Device Dependent is a disad, so make it cheaper...

        I'd go with...

        DC - 10 / 3 = EP

        Thus the following item (from my game) would cost 10 EP...

        Extraordinary Device: Omni-Photonic Goggles
        Compact Size - Goggles DC 14
        Unusual Senses: See Invisible (4EP) DC +8
        Darkvision 60ft (3EP) DC +6
        Protected Vision (2EP) DC +4
        Penetrating Vision (4EP) DC +8
        Totals: HP 2, PP 4, Hardness 2, 1 lb DC 40
        Cost: XP 400, $40,000, 80 hours

        DC 40, minus 10 = 30, divide by 3 = 10 EP for the device.
        The cost of the powers individually would be 13 EP.

        That's about a 25% discount.

        Extraordinary Device: Spring Boots
        Light Size - Pair of Boots DC 12
        Amazing Leap +30 Jump (6EP) DC +12
        Catfalling (3EP) DC +6
        Totals: HP 4, PP 4, Hardness 2, 4 lb DC 30
        Cost: XP 300, $30,000, 60 hours

        This comes out at 7 EP (instead of 9 for the powers), a 22% savings.

        Prices get interesting when you include bonus PP or hardness or stuff

        Extraordinary Device: Shield Belt
        Compact Size - Belt DC 12
        Active Force Field: Energy - DR 6 (3EP) DC +6
        Active Force Field: Ballistic - DR 6 (3EP) DC +6
        Active Force Field: Conventional - DR 6 (3EP) DC +6
        Option +20 PP DC +10
        Totals: HP 4, PP 24, Hardness 2, 4 lb DC 40
        Cost: XP 400, $40,000, 80 hours

        This is also 10 EP... but strictly speaking the cost of the powers is only 9 EP.
        Swapping out that +20 PP for a Bio-Converter (+8 DC) wouldn't actually save you any
        EP, either.

        It's an interesting tossup.

        ====================
        The above email was brought to you by Shinra Online
        http://www.shinraonline.com
        Click it... you know you want to.
      • Orion
        i ve spent the last four hours trying to come up with that... [dramatically slapps self in forehead and slowly peals hand off of face] that said, it d be nice
        Message 3 of 10 , Jul 5, 2004
        View Source
        • 0 Attachment
          i've spent the last four hours trying to come up with that...

          [dramatically slapps self in forehead and slowly peals hand off of face]

          that said, it'd be nice to have a system that was reliably less costly
          than the power by itself. there are lots of ways of doing that, but it's
          a matter of finding the balance between complexity and accuracy.

          you can just make a Complication "Via Device" and take 4EP off (or
          whatever), but that leaves all kinds of questions unanswered regarding
          Skill Points, prerequisites, and most of all power points.

          at some point when i'm awake, we will discuss this further.

          g'night.

          -Orion

          "You're born naked and everything else is drag."
          -RuPaul


          Palmer of the Turks wrote:
          > On 5 Jul 2004, at 1:07, Orion wrote:
          >
          >
          >>yes, i've read through it. i suspect that our philosophies
          >>of what the power ought to do are so different than we're
          >>really creating two different powers entirely, but that's ok!
          >
          >
          > Indeed. Mine is aimed at a workable, intelligent version of the "Incredible Item" power,
          > which simply makes magic-equivalent weapons and armors. I wasn't looking at a
          > "Device-based power for EP" solution.
          >
          > I think the best way to do that would be to come up with a simple Device DC into EP
          > cost formula.
          >
          > The key point in such a formula is that 1 EP = +2 DC, and the base DC for a normal
          > device is 10. And Device Dependent is a disad, so make it cheaper...
          >
          > I'd go with...
          >
          > DC - 10 / 3 = EP
          >
          > Thus the following item (from my game) would cost 10 EP...
          >
          > Extraordinary Device: Omni-Photonic Goggles
          > Compact Size - Goggles DC 14
          > Unusual Senses: See Invisible (4EP) DC +8
          > Darkvision 60ft (3EP) DC +6
          > Protected Vision (2EP) DC +4
          > Penetrating Vision (4EP) DC +8
          > Totals: HP 2, PP 4, Hardness 2, 1 lb DC 40
          > Cost: XP 400, $40,000, 80 hours
          >
          > DC 40, minus 10 = 30, divide by 3 = 10 EP for the device.
          > The cost of the powers individually would be 13 EP.
          >
          > That's about a 25% discount.
          >
          > Extraordinary Device: Spring Boots
          > Light Size - Pair of Boots DC 12
          > Amazing Leap +30 Jump (6EP) DC +12
          > Catfalling (3EP) DC +6
          > Totals: HP 4, PP 4, Hardness 2, 4 lb DC 30
          > Cost: XP 300, $30,000, 60 hours
          >
          > This comes out at 7 EP (instead of 9 for the powers), a 22% savings.
          >
          > Prices get interesting when you include bonus PP or hardness or stuff
          >
          > Extraordinary Device: Shield Belt
          > Compact Size - Belt DC 12
          > Active Force Field: Energy - DR 6 (3EP) DC +6
          > Active Force Field: Ballistic - DR 6 (3EP) DC +6
          > Active Force Field: Conventional - DR 6 (3EP) DC +6
          > Option +20 PP DC +10
          > Totals: HP 4, PP 24, Hardness 2, 4 lb DC 40
          > Cost: XP 400, $40,000, 80 hours
          >
          > This is also 10 EP... but strictly speaking the cost of the powers is only 9 EP.
          > Swapping out that +20 PP for a Bio-Converter (+8 DC) wouldn't actually save you any
          > EP, either.
          >
          > It's an interesting tossup.
          >
          > ====================
          > The above email was brought to you by Shinra Online
          > http://www.shinraonline.com
          > Click it... you know you want to.
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > Yahoo! Groups Links
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
        • Palmer of the Turks
          ... Like I said, the tricky part is when you include the cost for extra PP or a Bio-Converter. Alternate solution. Formula for cost remains the same. And then
          Message 4 of 10 , Jul 5, 2004
          View Source
          • 0 Attachment
            On 5 Jul 2004, at 2:20, Orion wrote:

            > that said, it'd be nice to have a system that was
            > reliably less costly than the power by itself.
            > there are lots of ways of doing that, but it's
            > a matter of finding the balance between
            > complexity and accuracy.

            Like I said, the tricky part is when you include the cost for extra PP or a Bio-Converter.

            Alternate solution.
            Formula for cost remains the same.

            And then a choice... Free Bio-Converter (worth 8 DC), or free +16 PP (worth 8 DC) for
            the device (resulting in 20ish PP on average). If they choose the Bio-Converter, the
            device has NO PP at all (not even the 4 or so it gets automatically) as base.

            It's an interesting compromise... early on, the 20 PP is a BIG perk, as it's way more
            than your natural PP (WAY way more if you have a low d4/d6 PP class) for a few
            levels, and lets you use your power a lot more than usual. This is doubly true if you
            have other powers that use your natural PP, or you get more than one PP-using device
            power.
            But at higher levels, the Bio-Converter is way better, as you will have a lot more natural
            PP than the device.

            > you can just make a Complication "Via Device" and take
            > 4EP off (or whatever), but that leaves all kinds of questions
            > unanswered regarding Skill Points, prerequisites, and most
            > of all power points

            It shouldn't be more than -2 EP... but the tricky part about using a flat discount is
            balancing the costs...

            Reference... fiat powers come in 3 flavours to me...
            Flat, like Darkvision and Prehensile Hair, where you pay the base cost and get the
            power. Enhancements can change the cost, but the base power has a fixed cost.

            Built, like Energy Attack and Pheromones, where you pay separate EP costs for
            different aspects of the power.

            Level, like Instinctive Accuracy and Natural DR, where you pay X EP for each level of a
            numerical bonus.

            Most "flat" powers, and ALL skill-based powers, cost 4 EP, and a -2 discount makes it
            as cheap as a feat. But a great many powers only cost 3... which makes them
            CHEAPER than a feat. Expensive ones like Liquid Form are pretty rare... and some
            are not well handled by devices, like a gadget that lets you turn into mist, and turns
            the device itself to mist as well it's assumed (otherwise it would fall to the floor and
            you'd be stuck as mist)... and yet as mist device, it can still turn you back?

            A -1 cost may be appropriate for these... or maybe a 25% discount (that's -1 per 4 EP)

            "Built" powers tend to get expensive, quickly. One need only look at the cost of a 4d8
            energy attack (12 EP plus 2-4 for range, plus enhancements) to see that. It would be
            hard to work out a fair discount for these powers if it was a flat number. A percentage
            would be most appropriate, but then it could add up to a hefty discount, and unbalance
            powers (a 48 EP energy attack with a 25% discount is only 36 EP, you get the idea)

            "Level" powers are odd ones... individual levels of these powers normally only cost 1 or
            2 EP (Instinctive Fighting is a noteworthy exception at 4 EP per level), and thus a flat
            discount can make them a serious bargain if the player only takes 1 or 2 levels, but is
            a piddly difference if they want more than 3 or 4 levels.

            Doing it with the Gadget formula as DC - 10 / 3 averages a 25 discount, depending on
            the size of gadget chosen.

            ====================
            The above email was brought to you by Shinra Online
            http://www.shinraonline.com
            Click it... you know you want to.
          • Orion
            ... agreed. once you settle on a price reduction, that s the only real problem. ... i like presenting the choice. that makes sense. and given that the
            Message 5 of 10 , Jul 5, 2004
            View Source
            • 0 Attachment
              > Like I said, the tricky part is when you include the cost for extra PP or a Bio-Converter.

              agreed. once you settle on a price reduction, that's the only real problem.

              > Alternate solution.
              > Formula for cost remains the same.
              >
              > And then a choice... Free Bio-Converter (worth 8 DC), or free +16 PP (worth 8 DC) for
              > the device (resulting in 20ish PP on average). If they choose the Bio-Converter, the
              > device has NO PP at all (not even the 4 or so it gets automatically) as base.
              >
              > It's an interesting compromise... early on, the 20 PP is a BIG perk, as it's way more
              > than your natural PP (WAY way more if you have a low d4/d6 PP class) for a few
              > levels, and lets you use your power a lot more than usual. This is doubly true if you
              > have other powers that use your natural PP, or you get more than one PP-using device
              > power.
              > But at higher levels, the Bio-Converter is way better, as you will have a lot more natural
              > PP than the device.

              i like presenting the choice. that makes sense. and given that the
              Super-Tech rules include rebuilding and cannibalising old Devices, it's
              not as much of a barrier as you make it out to be. we can rebuild them.
              we have the technology.

              > It shouldn't be more than -2 EP... but the tricky part about using a flat discount is
              > balancing the costs...

              well, to me, the EP break should be scaled to the cost of the Item. if
              you're a channelor and you're building an entire character around, say,
              Power Staff or something, getting 2EP off of the staff,w hich is
              probably 30 or 40EP in and of itself, doesn't mean much.

              > Reference... fiat powers come in 3 flavours to me...
              > Flat, like Darkvision and Prehensile Hair, where you pay the base cost and get the
              > power. Enhancements can change the cost, but the base power has a fixed cost.
              >
              > Built, like Energy Attack and Pheromones, where you pay separate EP costs for
              > different aspects of the power.
              >
              > Level, like Instinctive Accuracy and Natural DR, where you pay X EP for each level of a
              > numerical bonus.
              >
              > Most "flat" powers, and ALL skill-based powers, cost 4 EP, and a -2 discount makes it
              > as cheap as a feat. But a great many powers only cost 3... which makes them
              > CHEAPER than a feat. Expensive ones like Liquid Form are pretty rare... and some
              > are not well handled by devices, like a gadget that lets you turn into mist, and turns
              > the device itself to mist as well it's assumed (otherwise it would fall to the floor and
              > you'd be stuck as mist)... and yet as mist device, it can still turn you back?
              >
              > A -1 cost may be appropriate for these... or maybe a 25% discount (that's -1 per 4 EP)
              >
              > "Built" powers tend to get expensive, quickly. One need only look at the cost of a 4d8
              > energy attack (12 EP plus 2-4 for range, plus enhancements) to see that. It would be
              > hard to work out a fair discount for these powers if it was a flat number. A percentage
              > would be most appropriate, but then it could add up to a hefty discount, and unbalance
              > powers (a 48 EP energy attack with a 25% discount is only 36 EP, you get the idea)
              >
              > "Level" powers are odd ones... individual levels of these powers normally only cost 1 or
              > 2 EP (Instinctive Fighting is a noteworthy exception at 4 EP per level), and thus a flat
              > discount can make them a serious bargain if the player only takes 1 or 2 levels, but is
              > a piddly difference if they want more than 3 or 4 levels.

              i suspected this would be the problem. grand variation in prices makes a
              flat discount at least somewhat unfair, and highly prone to munchinkism.

              > Doing it with the Gadget formula as DC - 10 / 3 averages a 25 discount, depending on
              > the size of gadget chosen.

              given that, i think it would be easier in the long run to create a
              system for building a device with EPs and then just taking 25% off at
              the end, rather than relying on a formula that doesn't always work. this
              is, in fact, what i'm trying to do right now. i'll post it soonish and
              you can hash out the math (as i'm sure mine is a tad screwy).
            • Orion
              ... how d you come up with this formula? i m going to go ahead and use it, but i m curious where it comes from.
              Message 6 of 10 , Jul 5, 2004
              View Source
              • 0 Attachment
                Palmer of the Turks wrote:
                > On 5 Jul 2004, at 1:07, Orion wrote:
                >
                > The key point in such a formula is that 1 EP = +2 DC, and the base DC for a normal
                > device is 10. And Device Dependent is a disad, so make it cheaper...

                how'd you come up with this formula? i'm going to go ahead and use it,
                but i'm curious where it comes from.
              • Palmer of the Turks
                ... The above is the normal formula for Extraordinary Machines. The base DC is 10. Smaller devices have a higher base DC, bigger ones have a smaller DC. Then
                Message 7 of 10 , Jul 5, 2004
                View Source
                • 0 Attachment
                  On 5 Jul 2004, at 14:52, Orion wrote:

                  > > The key point in such a formula is that 1 EP = +2 DC,
                  > > and the base DC for a normal device is 10. And Device
                  > > Dependent is a disad, so make it cheaper...
                  >
                  > how'd you come up with this formula? i'm going to go
                  > ahead and use it, but i'm curious where it comes from.

                  The above is the normal formula for Extraordinary Machines.

                  The base DC is 10. Smaller devices have a higher base DC, bigger ones have a
                  smaller DC.

                  Then the DC goes up +2 for every 1 EP worth of Fiat Powers or Feats you build into it.
                  An Average Size device (10lbs - a small backpack or a rifle sized object) with a single
                  4 EP power built into it has a DC of 18.
                  Make it Light (4lbs - large handgun size) and it's DC 20.
                  Scale it all the way to Ultra Compact (1 ounce - credit card sized) and it's DC 26.

                  The reasoning behind the basic formula I gave was to deduct the 10 basic DC, and
                  then divide the remainder by 3, which should then come out UP TO (but no more than)
                  33% cheaper than the basic EP cost of the item. I pulled this formula out of my ass on
                  the fly when it first came up. Just seemed about right. Not too cheap, not too
                  expensive.
                  The main reason I discount the original 10 DC from the base is that it screws the
                  formula up because it's a fixed cost... Putting twice the EP into a device does not
                  result in twice the DC. It results in less than 150% the DC. Which means it's most
                  economical to cram as much into a single device as possible - unless that fixed 10 DC
                  cost is removed.

                  Average size (DC 10) + 6 EP of powers (DC +12) = DC 22 minus 10 = DC 12 div 3 = 4
                  EP - a full 33% discount.

                  If the device is any smaller than Average size, then the discount is not so great. Bump
                  the size down to Light, and EP goes up 1. Make it Compact (1lb - sunglasses,
                  bracelets) and the EP goes up 2 - which results in no discount at all.

                  However, the more EP built into an item, the less the size affects the cost.

                  Take 13 EP of powers (DC 26) and Compact Size (+4 DC) which makes 30, which the
                  works out to 10 EP under the formula. Remove the size, and it's 9 EP instead - only a
                  1 EP difference instead of 2 when the device only has 6 EP of powers.



                  ====================
                  The above email was brought to you by Shinra Online
                  http://www.shinraonline.com
                  Click it... you know you want to.
                • Orion
                  every once in a while i realise that i completely misunderstood something extremely simple. i just can t seem to see the numbers from the right point of view.
                  Message 8 of 10 , Jul 5, 2004
                  View Source
                  • 0 Attachment
                    every once in a while i realise that i completely misunderstood
                    something extremely simple. i just can't seem to see the numbers from
                    the right point of view. once again, i thank you for your math brain.

                    -Orion

                    "You're born naked and everything else is drag."
                    -RuPaul


                    Palmer of the Turks wrote:
                    > On 5 Jul 2004, at 14:52, Orion wrote:
                    >
                    >
                    >>>The key point in such a formula is that 1 EP = +2 DC,
                    >>>and the base DC for a normal device is 10. And Device
                    >>>Dependent is a disad, so make it cheaper...
                    >>
                    >>how'd you come up with this formula? i'm going to go
                    >>ahead and use it, but i'm curious where it comes from.
                    >
                    >
                    > The above is the normal formula for Extraordinary Machines.
                    >
                    > The base DC is 10. Smaller devices have a higher base DC, bigger ones have a
                    > smaller DC.
                    >
                    > Then the DC goes up +2 for every 1 EP worth of Fiat Powers or Feats you build into it.
                    > An Average Size device (10lbs - a small backpack or a rifle sized object) with a single
                    > 4 EP power built into it has a DC of 18.
                    > Make it Light (4lbs - large handgun size) and it's DC 20.
                    > Scale it all the way to Ultra Compact (1 ounce - credit card sized) and it's DC 26.
                    >
                    > The reasoning behind the basic formula I gave was to deduct the 10 basic DC, and
                    > then divide the remainder by 3, which should then come out UP TO (but no more than)
                    > 33% cheaper than the basic EP cost of the item. I pulled this formula out of my ass on
                    > the fly when it first came up. Just seemed about right. Not too cheap, not too
                    > expensive.
                    > The main reason I discount the original 10 DC from the base is that it screws the
                    > formula up because it's a fixed cost... Putting twice the EP into a device does not
                    > result in twice the DC. It results in less than 150% the DC. Which means it's most
                    > economical to cram as much into a single device as possible - unless that fixed 10 DC
                    > cost is removed.
                    >
                    > Average size (DC 10) + 6 EP of powers (DC +12) = DC 22 minus 10 = DC 12 div 3 = 4
                    > EP - a full 33% discount.
                    >
                    > If the device is any smaller than Average size, then the discount is not so great. Bump
                    > the size down to Light, and EP goes up 1. Make it Compact (1lb - sunglasses,
                    > bracelets) and the EP goes up 2 - which results in no discount at all.
                    >
                    > However, the more EP built into an item, the less the size affects the cost.
                    >
                    > Take 13 EP of powers (DC 26) and Compact Size (+4 DC) which makes 30, which the
                    > works out to 10 EP under the formula. Remove the size, and it's 9 EP instead - only a
                    > 1 EP difference instead of 2 when the device only has 6 EP of powers.
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > ====================
                    > The above email was brought to you by Shinra Online
                    > http://www.shinraonline.com
                    > Click it... you know you want to.
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > Yahoo! Groups Links
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                  Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.