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PP and Enhanced Abilities

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  • jason lego
    I was wondering if anyone has created ot thought about a mechanic for creating a PP cost for using things like super-strength and super-dex. It seems a little
    Message 1 of 15 , Jun 28, 2004
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      I was wondering if anyone has created ot thought about a
      mechanic for creating a PP cost for using things like
      super-strength and super-dex. It seems a little unbalanced that
      using Hulk-level strength costs no PP whereas Energy Attack at
      it's lowest level has a PP cost. Thoughts?

      jason
    • Palmer of the Turks
      ... First off, why would only super-stats need PP? Why not regular stats then? The whole point of super attribs is that your basic capacity is much higher than
      Message 2 of 15 , Jun 28, 2004
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        On 28 Jun 2004, at 16:07, jason lego wrote:

        > I was wondering if anyone has created ot thought
        > about a mechanic for creating a PP cost for using
        > things like super-strength and super-dex. It seems
        > a little unbalanced that using Hulk-level strength
        > costs no PP whereas Energy Attack at it's lowest
        > level has a PP cost. Thoughts?

        First off, why would only super-stats need PP? Why not regular stats then?

        The whole point of super attribs is that your basic capacity is much higher than
        normal. Lifting half a ton is a small effort to you, compared to a normal person. If you
        wanted to do this, then you'd need to introduce PP costs for using any stat at it's
        maximum... because it's just as hard for The Hulk to lift as train as it is for me to lift a
        50lb box of books. It's the same amount of effort on both our parts... so if he needs to
        spend PP on it, then so should I.

        You can see where this goes...

        Secondly, Energy Attack makes sense to have a PP cost... it's tapping your super-
        duper energies to produce an unnatural effect. Even Cyclops can "run out of juice" for
        his blasts. Being stronger is a natural effect - even if taken to unnatural levels.

        http://www.cnn.com/2004/HEALTH/06/24/muscle.gene.ap/index.html

        Plus, once you reach Level 5 or so, your PP will normally be high enough that you no
        longer really need to worry about it unless you have a pretty honking HUGE Energy
        Attack. It's quite easy for a Lv 5 character to have 60+ PP (2 of my players have that).
        And at that point, you can sling around ten 6-die energy attacks (more if you have
        Efficient Power). And if you can't end a fight with that much firepower, you're probably
        screwed :)
        None of my players have ever gone through more than 25% of their PP, ever.

        ===========

        If you want a happy medium, I would work up a system whereby you can purchase
        "potential" increased stats, and then burn PP to activate them.

        Like "Strength 18 (34)". Spending 1 PP gives you +8 to your Str for 1 round, up to the
        maximum purchased (noted in the parenthesis) or some such.

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      • Bluntaxe
        I think it s perfectly reasonable to make any power require/use pp. Either for flavor, penalty or just personal tastes of the gaming group. What about a
        Message 3 of 15 , Jun 28, 2004
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          I think it's perfectly reasonable to make any power
          require/use pp. Either for flavor, penalty or just
          personal tastes of the gaming group. What about a
          character like Bane, who needs to 'juice up' for strength?
          Eventually he's going to run out. Surge from the new
          Academy X has super speed, but can only use it by expending
          a 'charge'. She has to recharge before using it again.
          Another valid reason for using something like pp.


          On 28 Jun 2004, at 16:07, jason lego wrote:

          > I was wondering if anyone has created ot thought
          > about a mechanic for creating a PP cost for using
          > things like super-strength and super-dex. It seems
          > a little unbalanced that using Hulk-level strength
          > costs no PP whereas Energy Attack at it's lowest
          > level has a PP cost. Thoughts?

          First off, why would only super-stats need PP? Why not
          regular stats then?

          The whole point of super attribs is that your basic
          capacity is much higher than
          normal. Lifting half a ton is a small effort to you,
          compared to a normal person. If you
          wanted to do this, then you'd need to introduce PP costs
          for using any stat at it's
          maximum... because it's just as hard for The Hulk to lift
          as train as it is for me to lift a
          50lb box of books. It's the same amount of effort on both
          our parts... so if he needs to
          spend PP on it, then so should I.

          You can see where this goes...

          Secondly, Energy Attack makes sense to have a PP cost...
          it's tapping your super-
          duper energies to produce an unnatural effect. Even Cyclops
          can "run out of juice" for
          his blasts. Being stronger is a natural effect - even if
          taken to unnatural levels.

          http://www.cnn.com/2004/HEALTH/06/24/muscle.gene.ap/index.html

          Plus, once you reach Level 5 or so, your PP will normally
          be high enough that you no
          longer really need to worry about it unless you have a
          pretty honking HUGE Energy
          Attack. It's quite easy for a Lv 5 character to have 60+ PP
          (2 of my players have that).
          And at that point, you can sling around ten 6-die energy
          attacks (more if you have
          Efficient Power). And if you can't end a fight with that
          much firepower, you're probably
          screwed :)
          None of my players have ever gone through more than 25% of
          their PP, ever.

          ===========

          If you want a happy medium, I would work up a system
          whereby you can purchase
          "potential" increased stats, and then burn PP to activate
          them.

          Like "Strength 18 (34)". Spending 1 PP gives you +8 to your
          Str for 1 round, up to the
          maximum purchased (noted in the parenthesis) or some such.

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        • Palmer of the Turks
          ... I just suggested an option for spending PP for bumped stats. You can also use the Berserker Fury power for this. ... Some uses of Super Speed already use
          Message 4 of 15 , Jun 28, 2004
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            On 28 Jun 2004, at 14:00, Bluntaxe wrote:

            > I think it's perfectly reasonable to make any power
            > require/use pp. Either for flavor, penalty or just
            > personal tastes of the gaming group. What about a
            > character like Bane, who needs to 'juice up' for strength?

            I just suggested an option for spending PP for bumped stats.
            You can also use the Berserker Fury power for this.

            > Surge from the new Academy X has super speed,
            > but can only use it by expending a 'charge'.

            Some uses of Super Speed already use PP :)

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          • Orion
            i thought about this a bit before i answered, cause i think you have a good point. at first glance, taking a whacking huge str score is cheaper and more
            Message 5 of 15 , Jun 28, 2004
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              i thought about this a bit before i answered, 'cause i think you have a
              good point. at first glance, taking a whacking huge str score is cheaper
              and more efficient than sinking money into a ranged energy attack (for
              example).

              that said, as Palmer pointed out, characters rarely run out of PPs. you
              get fairly high dice to roll with them, and you get a good bonus
              considering you can pick your int or wis score.

              also, once you learn to manipulate the energy attack power, you start to
              realise that it can be quite powerful with very little PP cost. yes, you
              have to sink a few extra EPs in for enhanced crit (both kinds), lowerer
              power cost, line effect, etc., but once you do, you're kicking bottom.

              but what your message does point to is the clear and present fact that,
              as written, super-strength is just way too freakin' powerful. this is
              why, as you might have read (dunno if you were here for it) palmer and i
              spent some time adjusting the power. first, we took out all the extra
              super-str effects (super-damage being the big one), and we made all
              attribute enhancements more expensive (raised it to 1EP per ten's
              collumn, in effect).

              all in all, i think this solves the problem.

              -Orion

              "You're born naked and everything else is drag."
              -RuPaul
            • Orion
              i d favour a Burst of Attribute power that is a schwack cheaper than Enhance Attribute (perhaps as cheap as Enhance was before palmer and i go our grubby
              Message 6 of 15 , Jun 28, 2004
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                i'd favour a 'Burst of Attribute' power that is a schwack cheaper than
                'Enhance Attribute' (perhaps as cheap as 'Enhance' was before palmer and
                i go our grubby little hands on it?).

                the key would be flexibility (that's the point of this kind of power,
                after all). perhaps 1 PP per round per +2 to the attribute (1PP/R/+2).
                that way, a Str +6 Burst would cost 3EP per round. the activation would
                be a free action costing no PPs.


                come to think of it, there could be a whole pile of 'Burst of' powers
                made out of fiat powers. Burst of Super-Speed, Burst of Flight, like
                that. they'd provide cheaper alternatives and take care of that pesky
                'players never run out of PPs' problem palmer was talking about!

                -Orion

                "You're born naked and everything else is drag."
                -RuPaul


                jason lego wrote:
                > I was wondering if anyone has created ot thought about a
                > mechanic for creating a PP cost for using things like
                > super-strength and super-dex. It seems a little unbalanced that
                > using Hulk-level strength costs no PP whereas Energy Attack at
                > it's lowest level has a PP cost. Thoughts?
                >
                > jason
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > Yahoo! Groups Links
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
              • Palmer of the Turks
                ... Definately activate as a free action... although to have it steppable, you d properly write it as Activate: Free Action, Duration: 1 round, rather than
                Message 7 of 15 , Jun 28, 2004
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                  On 28 Jun 2004, at 17:22, Orion wrote:

                  > i'd favour a 'Burst of Attribute' power that is a schwack cheaper than
                  > 'Enhance Attribute' (perhaps as cheap as 'Enhance' was before palmer and
                  > i go our grubby little hands on it?).
                  >
                  > the key would be flexibility (that's the point of this kind of power,
                  > after all). perhaps 1 PP per round per +2 to the attribute (1PP/R/+2).
                  > that way, a Str +6 Burst would cost 3EP per round. the activation would
                  > be a free action costing no PPs.

                  Definately activate as a free action... although to have it steppable, you'd properly write
                  it as Activate: Free Action, Duration: 1 round, rather than calling it an on-off switch.
                  That way they could spend X one round and Y the next round. Plus it fits much more
                  as a "Burst" that way than a sustained effect.

                  1 PP per +2 seems a bit expensive to me. That adds up to +1 Damage on an attack
                  (either from Deadeye or just Str bonus) for 1 PP... compared to 2.5 damage for a 1d4
                  Energy Attack for the same 1 PP. But I think 1 PP per +4 would work...

                  That lets you go from 20 Str to 32 for 3 PP per round. That kind of cost can add up
                  quickly if it's sustained. Even with 60 PP, that's only 20 rounds... 2 whole minutes of
                  uber-strength.

                  > come to think of it, there could be a whole pile of 'Burst of' powers
                  > made out of fiat powers. Burst of Super-Speed, Burst of Flight, like
                  > that. they'd provide cheaper alternatives and take care of that pesky
                  > 'players never run out of PPs' problem palmer was talking about!

                  Burst of Flight would leave me wondering... wouldn't that really come out like "Super-
                  Jump on Crack"? I could see this being more of a "Complication: PP cost for Flight"

                  Burst of Speed I could see... especially if it was only usable in a straight line. So you
                  needed more PP to turn corners.

                  And the rating for it was measured as "max distance covered". Like, you have Burst of
                  Speed 600ft

                  As a Full Round Action, you pay your PP (maybe 1 PP per 200 ft, since you can run
                  120 normally already) and at the end of the round, you've moved in a straight line
                  forward 600 feet (or less)
                  Want to turn a corner? Spend another round and PP.

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                • Orion
                  ... i assumed that was implied, but, sure, let s make it explicit. ... actually, it s 1PP for a +2 (hit and damage) whereas Energy Attack is just to damage.
                  Message 8 of 15 , Jun 28, 2004
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                    Palmer of the Turks wrote:
                    > Definately activate as a free action... although to have it steppable, you'd properly write
                    > it as Activate: Free Action, Duration: 1 round, rather than calling it an on-off switch.
                    > That way they could spend X one round and Y the next round. Plus it fits much more
                    > as a "Burst" that way than a sustained effect.

                    i assumed that was implied, but, sure, let's make it explicit.

                    > 1 PP per +2 seems a bit expensive to me. That adds up to +1 Damage on an attack
                    > (either from Deadeye or just Str bonus) for 1 PP... compared to 2.5 damage for a 1d4
                    > Energy Attack for the same 1 PP. But I think 1 PP per +4 would work...
                    >
                    > That lets you go from 20 Str to 32 for 3 PP per round. That kind of cost can add up
                    > quickly if it's sustained. Even with 60 PP, that's only 20 rounds... 2 whole minutes of
                    > uber-strength.

                    actually, it's 1PP for a +2 (hit and damage) whereas Energy Attack is
                    just to damage. and the averaage damage of a 1d4 attack is 2.5 as i
                    understand it, so i think it's about right. as for duration, two minutes
                    is 12 rounds. 12 rounds of combat can be a whole gaming day.

                    i'd want to play-test it, of course, but i stand by the original costage.

                    > Burst of Flight would leave me wondering... wouldn't that really come out like "Super-
                    > Jump on Crack"? I could see this being more of a "Complication: PP cost for Flight"

                    seems the same either way, to me. the costs would have to work out a
                    certain way regardless. though i agree, 'burst of flight' is kinda dinky
                    as a power, and it's not something that i can think of a precedent for
                    in comics. that said, it could be an enhancement to Flight! we've
                    certainly seen people 'pour it on' at a critical moment, thus expending
                    energy (eg, Neo at the end of Reloaded).

                    > Burst of Speed I could see... especially if it was only usable in a straight line. So you
                    > needed more PP to turn corners.
                    >
                    > And the rating for it was measured as "max distance covered". Like, you have Burst of
                    > Speed 600ft
                    >
                    > As a Full Round Action, you pay your PP (maybe 1 PP per 200 ft, since you can run
                    > 120 normally already) and at the end of the round, you've moved in a straight line
                    > forward 600 feet (or less)
                    > Want to turn a corner? Spend another round and PP.

                    this could work. it's like hitting the afterburners.

                    i also think that a 'Burst' enhancement could work with Super-Speed the
                    same as Flight. we already have the ability to pay per action for Bonus
                    Actions, why not pay per round for uber-ridiculous speeds? say, add 40
                    to your Move for 1PP/round? this way, you don't have to go all out on
                    your regular Move, but you can expend some energy to get *really* fast
                    once or twice a game day. combine this with Spring Attack and Bonus
                    Actions, and a speedster could do one full 'hit everyone in the room'
                    attack. like Whirlwind Attack, but with more reach, basically.

                    this could open up a whole new set of options for powers if we start
                    applying it all over the place. hm....
                  • Palmer of the Turks
                    ... That same 1 PP can net you an average damage of 4.5 if it s a d8, or 5.5 for a d10 Touch... that s the thing. The difference between d4 and d8 for the
                    Message 9 of 15 , Jun 28, 2004
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                      On 28 Jun 2004, at 18:10, Orion wrote:

                      > > 1 PP per +2 seems a bit expensive to me. That adds up
                      > > to +1 Damage on an attack (either from Deadeye or just
                      > > Str bonus) for 1 PP... compared to 2.5 damage for a 1d4
                      > > Energy Attack for the same 1 PP. But I think 1 PP per
                      > > +4 would work...
                      > >
                      > > That lets you go from 20 Str to 32 for 3 PP per round. That
                      > > kind of cost can add up quickly if it's sustained. Even with
                      > > 60 PP, that's only 20 rounds... 2 whole minutes of
                      > > uber-strength.
                      >
                      > actually, it's 1PP for a +2 (hit and damage) whereas Energy Attack is
                      > just to damage. and the averaage damage of a 1d4 attack is 2.5 as i
                      > understand it, so i think it's about right.

                      That same 1 PP can net you an average damage of 4.5 if it's a d8, or 5.5 for a d10
                      Touch... that's the thing. The difference between d4 and d8 for the energy attack is EP
                      cost. And that's not even factoring in Reduced Drain.
                      4d8 ranged energy attack + Reduced Drain x2 + Efficient Power feat = 18 EP
                      Average damage is 18, PP cost is always 1.

                      For 18 "points" we would need +18 to the stat (which is tentatively 1 EP per 1 stat
                      burst, and thus comes out at 18 EP) which would cost 9 EP per round, granting +9 to
                      hit and +9 damage. Assuming a basic 1d8 melee weapon (avg 4.5) we're doing 13.5
                      damage for nine times the EP cost.
                      Lets say we allow Reduced Drain etc for this... then we stick with the same 18 EP.
                      We get +12 to stat (12 EP) and Reduced Drain x2 + Efficient Power feat = 18 EP
                      Now we get +6 to hit and +6 damage (total +12) for a cost of 3 EP per round.

                      The energy attack is still coming out on top. At +4 = 1 PP, the +18 comes out at 5 PP
                      (still not a great deal) and the +12 comes out at 0 PP (which equals 1 in the end, so
                      you'd take another +4, or drop efficient power and save 2 EP, and not be shafting
                      yourself)

                      > as for duration, two minutes is 12 rounds.
                      > 12 rounds of combat can be a whole gaming day.

                      1 round = 6 seconds. 10 rounds = 1 minute
                      Maybe in combat terms 20 rounds is eternity... but in role-playing time, it's nothing.
                      "Hold this incredibly heavy thing up! You only need to keep it there for 3 minutes!"

                      How about Burst of Dexterity... and trying to use it for stealth. You'll run out ASAP.

                      Burst of Charisma... not sure how one would explain/justify it in game terms, unless
                      it's a different sort of pheromones than the Pheromones power... but you'd run out of
                      PP real fast with that.

                      Burst of Int/Wis would be used for solving puzzles mostly... which is another way a lot
                      of rounds can be burned fast.

                      > i'd want to play-test it, of course, but i stand by the original costage.

                      I think it would come down to EP costs.

                      > it could be an enhancement to Flight! we've certainly
                      > seen people 'pour it on' at a critical moment, thus
                      > expending energy (eg, Neo at the end of Reloaded).

                      But that could be covered by Burst of Speed (Limitation: Only for Flight) :)

                      > this could work. it's like hitting the afterburners.

                      And I think keeping it down to being a full round action will keep abuse under wraps...
                      you want cheap high speed, you don't get the maneuverability. The whole idea is that
                      your normal speed is "normal", but when you sprint all out, then the speed kicks in.

                      > i also think that a 'Burst' enhancement could work with Super-Speed the
                      > same as Flight. we already have the ability to pay per action for Bonus
                      > Actions, why not pay per round for uber-ridiculous speeds? say, add 40
                      > to your Move for 1PP/round? this way, you don't have to go all out on
                      > your regular Move, but you can expend some energy to get *really* fast
                      > once or twice a game day. combine this with Spring Attack and Bonus
                      > Actions, and a speedster could do one full 'hit everyone in the room'
                      > attack. like Whirlwind Attack, but with more reach, basically.

                      Hrmm... I think there would have to be a lot of work done on this to keep it in balance...

                      > this could open up a whole new set of options for powers if we start
                      > applying it all over the place. hm....

                      Lets try taking it one step at a time...

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                    • Orion
                      ... true. i d forgotten about this. this is one of the reasons i think that the damage for Energy Attack should be far more regular. i think it should just all
                      Message 10 of 15 , Jun 28, 2004
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                        Palmer of the Turks wrote:
                        > That same 1 PP can net you an average damage of 4.5 if it's a d8, or 5.5 for a d10
                        > Touch... that's the thing.

                        true. i'd forgotten about this. this is one of the reasons i think that
                        the damage for Energy Attack should be far more regular. i think it
                        should just all be in terms of d6's. that allows us the ability to make
                        the PP cost regular, and it takes into account the fact that we all have
                        far more d6's than anything else.

                        > The difference between d4 and d8 for the energy attack is EP
                        > cost. And that's not even factoring in Reduced Drain.
                        > 4d8 ranged energy attack + Reduced Drain x2 + Efficient Power feat = 18 EP
                        > Average damage is 18, PP cost is always 1.
                        >
                        > [math deleted]

                        you're right. that's all totally screwy. 1PP/+4 you say?

                        > 1 round = 6 seconds. 10 rounds = 1 minute

                        sorry. dunno what i was thinking. could have sworn it was 10 seconds.

                        > Maybe in combat terms 20 rounds is eternity... but in role-playing time, it's nothing.
                        > "Hold this incredibly heavy thing up! You only need to keep it there for 3 minutes!"

                        but we have to take into account the game effect above the 'real world'
                        logic. you explained that to me way back when i started posting here! 20
                        rounds is a friggin' lifetime in combat (where STR is at its most
                        important).

                        > How about Burst of Dexterity... and trying to use it for stealth. You'll run out ASAP.
                        >
                        > Burst of Charisma... not sure how one would explain/justify it in game terms, unless
                        > it's a different sort of pheromones than the Pheromones power... but you'd run out of
                        > PP real fast with that.
                        >
                        > Burst of Int/Wis would be used for solving puzzles mostly... which is another way a lot
                        > of rounds can be burned fast.

                        aha. now we're back to the problem you yourself pointed out a long, long
                        time ago: STR is just in a different category than the other attributes,
                        precisely because it's so useful in combat.

                        >>it could be an enhancement to Flight! we've certainly
                        >>seen people 'pour it on' at a critical moment, thus
                        >>expending energy (eg, Neo at the end of Reloaded).
                        >
                        > But that could be covered by Burst of Speed (Limitation: Only for Flight) :)

                        why make a power, and a limitation, when we can just make a power by
                        itself, or an enhancement? seems like twice as much effort for exacly
                        the same effect.

                        > And I think keeping it down to being a full round action will keep abuse under wraps...
                        > you want cheap high speed, you don't get the maneuverability. The whole idea is that
                        > your normal speed is "normal", but when you sprint all out, then the speed kicks in.

                        you can already have cheap high speeds through the Super-Speed power.
                        that ship has sailed, frankly. no, i think the better way to go is allow
                        an enhancement rather than making people pay for speed they might never
                        use. what i say is, you want that extra bit of power at a critical
                        moment, then you gotta pay with some PPs.

                        >>i also think that a 'Burst' enhancement could work with Super-Speed the
                        >>same as Flight. we already have the ability to pay per action for Bonus
                        >>Actions, why not pay per round for uber-ridiculous speeds? say, add 40
                        >>to your Move for 1PP/round? this way, you don't have to go all out on
                        >>your regular Move, but you can expend some energy to get *really* fast
                        >>once or twice a game day. combine this with Spring Attack and Bonus
                        >>Actions, and a speedster could do one full 'hit everyone in the room'
                        >>attack. like Whirlwind Attack, but with more reach, basically.
                        >
                        > Hrmm... I think there would have to be a lot of work done on this to keep it in balance...

                        then let's do the math:

                        Whirlwind Attack 2EP (1 Feat)
                        ----------------
                        -prerequs cost 8EP (4 Feats: Expertise, Dodge, Mobility, Spring Attack)
                        Total: 10 EP to attack everyone in a 5' radius as a full attack action.

                        Speedster Blitz
                        ---------------
                        Super-Speed: 4EP (at least, this is the lowest cost)
                        Burst of Speed: 15EP (enhancement x5)
                        Bonus Actions: 15EP (enhancement x5)
                        Spring Attack: 6EP (prerequs: Dodge, Mobility)
                        Power Points: 10 (for Bonus Actions and Bursts of Speed)
                        40EP to make 5 attacks to anyone on the map.

                        i think we're just fine for munchkinism on this one.

                        >>this could open up a whole new set of options for powers if we start
                        >>applying it all over the place. hm....
                        >
                        > Lets try taking it one step at a time...

                        i didn't say i was going to jump ahead. just that i could...
                      • Palmer of the Turks
                        ... Blergh... I m too busy right now to dive into this, but I m marking the message unread and will return later. I like the d4 to d8 variance... it lets you
                        Message 11 of 15 , Jun 28, 2004
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                          On 28 Jun 2004, at 22:36, Orion wrote:

                          > Palmer of the Turks wrote:
                          > > That same 1 PP can net you an average damage of 4.5
                          > if it's a d8, or 5.5 for a d10 Touch... that's the thing.
                          >
                          > true. i'd forgotten about this. this is one of the reasons i think that
                          > the damage for Energy Attack should be far more regular. i think it
                          > should just all be in terms of d6's. that allows us the ability to make
                          > the PP cost regular, and it takes into account the fact that we all have
                          > far more d6's than anything else.

                          Blergh... I'm too busy right now to dive into this, but I'm marking the message unread
                          and will return later.

                          I like the d4 to d8 variance... it lets you pay more EP up front for less PP cost down
                          the road... eh, we'll figure something out.

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                        • Orion
                          ... oh shit, dude, take your time. i m going to sleep soon myself. ... i hadn t thought of that. that s a good point. we ll discuss it more later, though.
                          Message 12 of 15 , Jun 28, 2004
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                            >>Palmer of the Turks wrote:
                            >>true. i'd forgotten about this. this is one of the reasons i think that
                            >>the damage for Energy Attack should be far more regular. i think it
                            >>should just all be in terms of d6's. that allows us the ability to make
                            >>the PP cost regular, and it takes into account the fact that we all have
                            >>far more d6's than anything else.
                            >
                            > Blergh... I'm too busy right now to dive into this, but I'm marking the message unread
                            > and will return later.

                            oh shit, dude, take your time. i'm going to sleep soon myself.

                            > I like the d4 to d8 variance... it lets you pay more EP up front for less PP cost down
                            > the road... eh, we'll figure something out.

                            i hadn't thought of that. that's a good point. we'll discuss it more
                            later, though.
                          • Palmer of the Turks
                            ... I mentioned the variance issue, and why I like it that way... ... That was my thought... we can always work out more details later, but it s a good
                            Message 13 of 15 , Jun 30, 2004
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                              On 28 Jun 2004, at 22:36, Orion wrote:

                              > Palmer of the Turks wrote:
                              > > That same 1 PP can net you an average damage of 4.5
                              > > if it's a d8, or 5.5 for a d10 Touch... that's the thing.

                              I mentioned the variance issue, and why I like it that way...


                              > > The difference between d4 and d8 for the energy
                              > > attack is EP cost. And that's not even factoring
                              > > in Reduced Drain. 4d8 ranged energy attack +
                              > > Reduced Drain x2 + Efficient Power feat = 18 EP
                              > > Average damage is 18, PP cost is always 1.
                              > >
                              > > [math deleted]
                              >
                              > you're right. that's all totally screwy. 1PP/+4 you say?

                              That was my thought... we can always work out more details later, but it's a good
                              starting point IMO.

                              > but we have to take into account the game effect above
                              > the 'real world' logic. you explained that to me way back
                              > when i started posting here! 20 rounds is a friggin' lifetime
                              > in combat (where STR is at its most important).

                              True... so there are only a few solutions to this one... either we give up and leave it as
                              is, or we can have tiered costs (where some stats cost more than others), or we just
                              make all of them cost more. Or we just make them cost more, and only allow it for
                              physical stats... now that I think about it, that last one may make the most sense.
                              Burst of Intelligence, while feasible, just doesn't seem "right", whereas Burst of
                              Constitution is definately workable (see The Hulk)

                              > >>it could be an enhancement to Flight! we've certainly
                              > >>seen people 'pour it on' at a critical moment, thus
                              > >>expending energy (eg, Neo at the end of Reloaded).
                              > >
                              > > But that could be covered by Burst of Speed (Limitation: Only for Flight) :)
                              >
                              > why make a power, and a limitation, when we can just
                              > make a power by itself, or an enhancement?

                              Yes... Enhancement. Duh! "Extra Speed: The character can double his flight speed for
                              one round at a cost of 2 PP". Not sure on cost yet (would have to look over the costs
                              for Flight) but I expect it would be 2 EP. Hell, now that I looked up costs on Speed
                              (later in this email) I'm coming back here to do EP checks on this.
                              At the lowest levels of Flight speed, 2 EP doubles your Non-Tactical (cruising) speed,
                              but higher levels (past 750mph) have only a small incremental increase.
                              Under Tactical Speed, the increase is fairly steadily incremental, roughly doubling
                              every 4 EP.

                              So I'd make it 2 EP for double, 4 EP for triple, and cap it there.
                              1 PP per round for Tactical (combat) boost. 1 PP per minute for Non-Tactical (cruising)
                              boost (this can be rationalized that moving faster in a straight line is easier on the
                              afterburners, and it also keeps you from being shafted in non-combat situations)

                              Now that I think about it, this same sort of thing could be used with Burst of Ability...
                              making the cost Per Minute for non-combat applications.

                              > you can already have cheap high speeds through the
                              > Super-Speed power. that ship has sailed, frankly. no,
                              > i think the better way to go is allow an enhancement
                              > rather than making people pay for speed they might
                              > never use. what i say is, you want that extra bit of
                              > power at a critical moment, then you gotta pay some PPs.

                              Touche, you have me there.

                              > then let's do the math:
                              >
                              > Whirlwind Attack 2EP (1 Feat)
                              > ----------------
                              > -prerequs cost 8EP (4 Feats: Expertise, Dodge, Mobility, Spring Attack)
                              > Total: 10 EP to attack everyone in a 5' radius as a full attack action.
                              >
                              > Speedster Blitz
                              > ---------------
                              > Super-Speed: 4EP (at least, this is the lowest cost)
                              > Burst of Speed: 15EP (enhancement x5)
                              > Bonus Actions: 15EP (enhancement x5)
                              > Spring Attack: 6EP (prerequs: Dodge, Mobility)
                              > Power Points: 10 (for Bonus Actions and Bursts of Speed)
                              > 40EP to make 5 attacks to anyone on the map.
                              >
                              > i think we're just fine for munchkinism on this one.

                              The speed version has the advantage of getting multiple attacks on a single target if so
                              desired, but your point is made.
                              I'd have to look into the cost... yeah, 3 EP per level of Burst is WAY too expensive.
                              Each addition x1 of base speed only costs 2 EP, and that's "always on and free"
                              So the proper cost for Burst of Speed should be more like

                              1 EP per level. Each level allows you to add an additional x1 to your base speed
                              multiple at a cost of 1 PP per round. Thus 3 EP allows you to add up to x3 to your
                              speed multiple (lets say it's just x2) bringing it up to x5, for 3 PP. Or just to x4 for 2
                              PP (same way you use less PP and dice for energy attack)

                              That may be a little expensive, PP-wise, though. Further analysis may be needed.
                              It may come out that the best option is 2 EP for +2 multiple, and each +2 multiple costs 1 PP.


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                            • Orion
                              ... i wonder what we could pattern it on? the damage potential of Energy Attack? the enhancement bonuses for feats? i know we ve done this before, but what is
                              Message 14 of 15 , Jun 30, 2004
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                                >>you're right. that's all totally screwy. 1PP/+4 you say?
                                >
                                > That was my thought... we can always work out more details later, but it's a good
                                > starting point IMO.

                                i wonder what we could pattern it on? the damage potential of Energy
                                Attack? the enhancement bonuses for feats? i know we've done this
                                before, but what is the standard EP to Bonus ratio?

                                > True... so there are only a few solutions to this one... either we give up and leave it as
                                > is, or we can have tiered costs (where some stats cost more than others), or we just
                                > make all of them cost more. Or we just make them cost more, and only allow it for
                                > physical stats... now that I think about it, that last one may make the most sense.
                                > Burst of Intelligence, while feasible, just doesn't seem "right", whereas Burst of
                                > Constitution is definately workable (see The Hulk)

                                the 'burst of' effect was, in my head, primarily a combat thing. all the
                                stats (except charisma) have direct combat applications. even int
                                (boosts spell-casting and psionic abilities), and wis (AC bonus for
                                martial artists) come in handy in combat. the only more or less useless
                                one is cha, though i suppose you could use it for Bluff and Intimidate.

                                anyway, if the point is to give temporary bonuses during combat, 20
                                rounds is still *lots*. if players want attribute bonuses that last
                                longer than that, they should just take Enhanced Attribute. the 'Boost'
                                powers just don't do that job.

                                > At the lowest levels of Flight speed, 2 EP doubles your Non-Tactical (cruising) speed,
                                > but higher levels (past 750mph) have only a small incremental increase.
                                > Under Tactical Speed, the increase is fairly steadily incremental, roughly doubling
                                > every 4 EP.
                                >
                                > So I'd make it 2 EP for double, 4 EP for triple, and cap it there.
                                > 1 PP per round for Tactical (combat) boost. 1 PP per minute for Non-Tactical (cruising)
                                > boost (this can be rationalized that moving faster in a straight line is easier on the
                                > afterburners, and it also keeps you from being shafted in non-combat situations)
                                >
                                > Now that I think about it, this same sort of thing could be used with Burst of Ability...
                                > making the cost Per Minute for non-combat applications.

                                that's good. that makes perfect sense. you use up more energy in combat
                                than wandering around for shits and giggles. i think we can print that
                                take.

                                >>you can already have cheap high speeds through the
                                >>Super-Speed power. that ship has sailed, frankly. no,
                                >>i think the better way to go is allow an enhancement
                                >>rather than making people pay for speed they might
                                >>never use. what i say is, you want that extra bit of
                                >>power at a critical moment, then you gotta pay some PPs.
                                >
                                > Touche, you have me there.

                                i think we can rig it the same as the Flight enhancement. hell, it's the
                                same enhancement. now, there is *some* contradiction in the fact taht
                                Super-Speed alters Flight speeds, so if you take Boost of Super Speed
                                you can use that for Flight. however, there are probably lots of people
                                who'd rather not have to buy into Super Speed, and would just as well
                                buy the enhancement for Flight, so i think we're good.

                                > 1 EP per level. Each level allows you to add an additional x1 to your base speed
                                > multiple at a cost of 1 PP per round. Thus 3 EP allows you to add up to x3 to your
                                > speed multiple (lets say it's just x2) bringing it up to x5, for 3 PP. Or just to x4 for 2
                                > PP (same way you use less PP and dice for energy attack)
                                >
                                > That may be a little expensive, PP-wise, though. Further analysis may be needed.
                                > It may come out that the best option is 2 EP for +2 multiple, and each +2 multiple costs 1 PP.

                                i'd go with this latter version. seems to split the difference on cost
                                fairness, and it's just a lot simpler to tally and remember.

                                you want to write this stuff up, or shall i?
                              • Palmer of the Turks
                                ... I would say 4 EP = 1 Level of Burst. 1 Level of Burst = 1 PP = +4 to stat I d say that testing would need to be done, but having it cost more than 4 EP per
                                Message 15 of 15 , Jun 30, 2004
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                                  On 30 Jun 2004, at 17:29, Orion wrote:

                                  > >>you're right. that's all totally screwy. 1PP/+4 you say?
                                  > >
                                  > > That was my thought... we can always work out more
                                  > > details later, but it's a good starting point IMO.
                                  >
                                  > i wonder what we could pattern it on? the damage potential of Energy
                                  > Attack? the enhancement bonuses for feats? i know we've done this
                                  > before, but what is the standard EP to Bonus ratio?

                                  I would say 4 EP = 1 Level of Burst.
                                  1 Level of Burst = 1 PP = +4 to stat

                                  I'd say that testing would need to be done, but having it cost more than 4 EP per level
                                  would be very iffy... as it is, it's safe to assume that anyone taking it would have a 20
                                  in the base stat to begin with... meaning that a flat +4 to their stat from that point
                                  would cost 8 EP... or 4 EP for burst.
                                  Or we could graduate the cost like Enhanced Ability, for those people who want to
                                  have a 10 normally, but Burst up to high levels... because if the base stat is below 18,
                                  then a 4 EP for +4 stat Burst is a waste of EP.
                                  Tough call, but I think I'll stick by 4 EP.

                                  > > Now that I think about it, this same sort of thing
                                  > > could be used with Burst of Ability... making the
                                  > > cost Per Minute for non-combat applications.
                                  >
                                  > that's good. that makes perfect sense. you use up
                                  > more energy in combat than wandering around for
                                  > shits and giggles. i think we can print that take.

                                  Done!

                                  > i think we can rig it the same as the Flight enhancement.
                                  > hell, it's the same enhancement. now, there is *some*
                                  > contradiction in the fact taht Super-Speed alters Flight
                                  > speeds, so if you take Boost of Super Speed you can
                                  > use that for Flight. however, there are probably lots of
                                  > people who'd rather not have to buy into Super Speed,
                                  > and would just as well buy the enhancement for Flight,
                                  > so i think we're good.

                                  Yeah... have one version for Flight and one for Speed. Maybe make the Speed one
                                  less efficient for the same EP/PP, but it applies to speed on foot as well.
                                  Having one exclusively for Flight is important because not all characters would want
                                  Super Speed with their flight... most would be happy just buying a higher level of flight
                                  speed.

                                  > > That may be a little expensive, PP-wise, though. Further analysis
                                  > > may be needed. It may come out that the best option is 2 EP for
                                  > > +2 multiple, and each +2 multiple costs 1 PP.
                                  >
                                  > i'd go with this latter version. seems to split the difference on cost
                                  > fairness, and it's just a lot simpler to tally and remember.
                                  >
                                  > you want to write this stuff up, or shall i?

                                  Go for it... you seem to do a fine job on the writeups, and I always get so distracted
                                  and behind on stuff

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