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Re: [deedsnotwordsd20] DNW != D20?

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  • Palmer of the Turks
    ... I definately agree with that... the system is still very obviously d20, and even with the drift, anyone who s only played D&D will recognize and understand
    Message 1 of 13 , Jun 24, 2004
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      On 24 Jun 2004, at 11:17, Orion wrote:

      > there has been some system drift since Scott started
      > up DNW and Palmer and I have certainly contributed
      > to that drift ourselves, but i think what we're doing is
      > making the system less and less like D&D, but not
      > necessarily less like D20.

      I definately agree with that... the system is still very obviously d20, and even with the
      drift, anyone who's only played D&D will recognize and understand everything at once
      anyways, needing no more explanation than "What's this feat do?" really.

      I honestly don't think there's been very much drift... the only significant system
      changes (specifically changes, rather than additions like powers) I see are power level
      of classes (DNW classes are WAY more powerful than D&D classes), AC for levels
      (which is also in Star Wars d20 IIRC), the psionics system (which I like), initial
      allocation of ability points (a flat cost pointbuy, not even significant really) and the
      details on a couple feats (actually, the only one I can think of is having Imp. Unarmed
      Strike, and Deadly Unarmed Strike... in 3.0, Imp. only gave "considered armed" but
      not lethal damage UNLESS you were a Monk... whereas in 3.5, Imp. gave you both
      Armed and Lethal rolled into one. Personally, I like the DNW version myself)

      That's really not much at all, when you think about it.

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    • Bluntaxe
      Message 2 of 13 , Jun 24, 2004
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        <<
        allocation of ability points (a flat cost pointbuy, not
        even significant really)
        >>

        Despite being a small thing, isn't this against the d20
        OGL?

        From the D20 lic.

        "No Covered Product may contain rules or instructions of
        any kind that:
        · Describe a process for Creating a Character"
        and
        "Character creation means the process of generating and
        assigning initial scores to abilities...."

        Really the whole game should have been put under the OGL
        not the d20 lic.
      • Palmer of the Turks
        ... Scott was clever in how he went about this. He never described anything about HOW to create a character. He just included information regarding the various
        Message 3 of 13 , Jun 24, 2004
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          On 24 Jun 2004, at 14:08, Bluntaxe wrote:

          > <<
          > allocation of ability points (a flat cost pointbuy,
          > not even significant really)
          > >>
          >
          > Despite being a small thing, isn't this against
          > the d20 OGL?
          >
          > >From the D20 lic.
          >
          > "No Covered Product may contain rules or
          > instructions of any kind that:
          > Describe a process for Creating a Character" and
          > "Character creation means the process of generating
          > and assigning initial scores to abilities...."
          >
          > Really the whole game should have been put
          > under the OGL not the d20 lic.

          Scott was clever in how he went about this.

          He never described anything about HOW to create a character. He just included
          information regarding the various steps in separate, "walled off" sections... and didn't
          tell you what to do with the information.

          It's not a breach to include an ability point buy table, but it is a breach to tell you how
          to use the table, or even that you're supposed to use it.

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        • Orion
          i wondered why that section was so vague. that explains it. -Orion You re born naked and everything else is drag. -RuPaul
          Message 4 of 13 , Jun 24, 2004
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            i wondered why that section was so vague. that explains it.

            -Orion

            "You're born naked and everything else is drag."
            -RuPaul


            Palmer of the Turks wrote:
            > On 24 Jun 2004, at 14:08, Bluntaxe wrote:
            >
            >
            >><<
            >>allocation of ability points (a flat cost pointbuy,
            >>not even significant really)
            >>
            >>Despite being a small thing, isn't this against
            >>the d20 OGL?
            >>
            >>>From the D20 lic.
            >>
            >>"No Covered Product may contain rules or
            >>instructions of any kind that:
            >>Describe a process for Creating a Character" and
            >>"Character creation means the process of generating
            >>and assigning initial scores to abilities...."
            >>
            >>Really the whole game should have been put
            >>under the OGL not the d20 lic.
            >
            >
            > Scott was clever in how he went about this.
            >
            > He never described anything about HOW to create a character. He just included
            > information regarding the various steps in separate, "walled off" sections... and didn't
            > tell you what to do with the information.
            >
            > It's not a breach to include an ability point buy table, but it is a breach to tell you how
            > to use the table, or even that you're supposed to use it.
            >
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          • Palmer of the Turks
            ... Scott explained it on the list, or somewhere, once and I just remember it (me and my knack for trivia) Just like he describes EVERYTHING regarding XP
            Message 5 of 13 , Jun 24, 2004
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              On 24 Jun 2004, at 12:38, Orion wrote:

              > i wondered why that section was so vague. that explains it.

              Scott explained it on the list, or somewhere, once and I just remember it (me and my
              knack for trivia)

              Just like he describes EVERYTHING regarding XP except for the XP table and
              describing levelling up. This is also allowed.

              Also, he left a lot of things vague (like character creation) because he wasn't pitching
              DNW at the n00b crowd (those who need the little "What is an RPG?" chapter at the
              beginning) but rather at people who already knew D&D, and thus know how to make a
              character.

              Incidentally, one thing he said in response to a question some time back about "order
              of character creation" was that you did your stats first... but everything else you did in
              whatever order you pleased. Thus you could do Powers before Skills, and benefit from
              your Enhanced Ability - Int. Same as using Enhanced Abilities to qualify for feats and
              such.

              He said the same applied for feats/stats/etc levelling up... it's something that's logical,
              but not necessarily immediately intuitive.

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            • Orion
              s funny you should mention this, because it took me a good week to sort out what order i wanted to create DNW characters in. i ve always found scott s layout
              Message 6 of 13 , Jun 24, 2004
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                s'funny you should mention this, because it took me a good week to sort
                out what order i wanted to create DNW characters in. i've always found
                scott's layout of hte book to be really counter-intuitive (half of the
                book is listing under 'building your hero' for example) but it *did*
                make me consciously aware of the order in which i was doing it. that's
                when i started noticing the order in which other people make characters,
                whether in this system or D&D or whatever.

                my intuition is to jump straight to powers and build the character
                concept around that, then work backwards to the personality. with
                superheroes, i want the whole character to fit together. if you're
                making a speedster, the original personality should be obsessed with
                fast cars, or always late (a la Barry Allen). a unity between powers and
                personality makes a more interesting character, to me, than "guy X has
                powers Y" which happens in comics sometimes and bores the crap out of
                me. in D&D, though, since there aren't 'powers' as such, i start with
                the character background and history, and then decide what he or she
                *would* do with his or life. since powers are often gained
                'accidentally' (mutation, accident, etc.) i have to anachronise a little
                with superheroes. with D&D adventurers, i can allow them to pick their
                own fate.

                but that's just the way *i* do it. i'd be curious to see how others do this.

                -Orion

                "You're born naked and everything else is drag."
                -RuPaul


                Palmer of the Turks wrote:
                > Incidentally, one thing he said in response to a question some time back about "order
                > of character creation" was that you did your stats first... but everything else you did in
                > whatever order you pleased. Thus you could do Powers before Skills, and benefit from
                > your Enhanced Ability - Int. Same as using Enhanced Abilities to qualify for feats and
                > such.
                >
                > He said the same applied for feats/stats/etc levelling up... it's something that's logical,
                > but not necessarily immediately intuitive.
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