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Re: [deedsnotwordsd20] Thank You

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  • Palmer of the Turks
    ... I understand the concerns you have... but there s nothing wrong with an old system if it still works. There are a surprising number of people on the
    Message 1 of 13 , Jun 24, 2004
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      On 24 Jun 2004, at 9:47, Lizard wrote:

      > I'd prefer DNW, but, as you note, it's not being supported
      > much, and that makes me nervous, as the main advantage
      > it has (It's a VERY "D20" game) is lost as the core system
      > drifts away over time.

      I understand the concerns you have... but there's nothing wrong with an old system if it
      still works. There are a surprising number of people on the DMAdvice group who still
      play AD&D 1st Ed, and even more who play 2nd Ed. The fact the core system has
      "drifted" means nothing to them.

      > (For example, it might be interesting to adopt the psionics
      > from the SRD to it, just as the magic system was

      Honestly... I like the DNW psionics a lot more than the D&D version.

      > or use the epic-level rules as guidelines for ultra-powered heroes.

      If it ever reaches that point... I don't actually plan to use the Epic rules. They work for
      D&D, but DNW is a different beast. For one, there's little reason to switch BAB
      progression to the Epic Attack Bonus... the main reason that is done in D&D is
      because of the effective AC cap D&D has... but DNW gives AC with levels, which
      directly counterbalances having a ridiculously high BAB incredibly well. Plus it's just
      fun to have mega-heroes with more than 4 attacks a round.

      The only rule I would have for "Epic" levels in any DNW game I played would be:
      You cannot have more than 20 levels in any class. If you wish to keep levelling after
      you reach Lv 20 in a class, you have to do so in a different class.

      Other than that, I would completely ignore all the Epic rules completely (including Epic
      Feats) except maybe Epic Skill Uses. It would depend on the flavour of the game, but
      most likely I'd allow them... they are very tongue in cheek though. But I see nothing
      wrong with a Lv 40 character using Balance to stand on a cloud, for instance...
      especially if he's got 20 levels of Martial Artist :)

      > Neither of these were in the SRD when Scott wrote DNW.)

      True, but Scott was attempting to bring things up to 3.5 compliant when it did come
      out.

      > I really wish Scott would chime up. It's weird how he's
      > gone from extremely involved to Dave Trampier.

      Very frustrating. Even a quick "Hi, I'm alive" would be nice.

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    • Palmer of the Turks
      ... I definately agree with that... the system is still very obviously d20, and even with the drift, anyone who s only played D&D will recognize and understand
      Message 2 of 13 , Jun 24, 2004
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        On 24 Jun 2004, at 11:17, Orion wrote:

        > there has been some system drift since Scott started
        > up DNW and Palmer and I have certainly contributed
        > to that drift ourselves, but i think what we're doing is
        > making the system less and less like D&D, but not
        > necessarily less like D20.

        I definately agree with that... the system is still very obviously d20, and even with the
        drift, anyone who's only played D&D will recognize and understand everything at once
        anyways, needing no more explanation than "What's this feat do?" really.

        I honestly don't think there's been very much drift... the only significant system
        changes (specifically changes, rather than additions like powers) I see are power level
        of classes (DNW classes are WAY more powerful than D&D classes), AC for levels
        (which is also in Star Wars d20 IIRC), the psionics system (which I like), initial
        allocation of ability points (a flat cost pointbuy, not even significant really) and the
        details on a couple feats (actually, the only one I can think of is having Imp. Unarmed
        Strike, and Deadly Unarmed Strike... in 3.0, Imp. only gave "considered armed" but
        not lethal damage UNLESS you were a Monk... whereas in 3.5, Imp. gave you both
        Armed and Lethal rolled into one. Personally, I like the DNW version myself)

        That's really not much at all, when you think about it.

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      • Bluntaxe
        Message 3 of 13 , Jun 24, 2004
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          <<
          allocation of ability points (a flat cost pointbuy, not
          even significant really)
          >>

          Despite being a small thing, isn't this against the d20
          OGL?

          From the D20 lic.

          "No Covered Product may contain rules or instructions of
          any kind that:
          ยท Describe a process for Creating a Character"
          and
          "Character creation means the process of generating and
          assigning initial scores to abilities...."

          Really the whole game should have been put under the OGL
          not the d20 lic.
        • Palmer of the Turks
          ... Scott was clever in how he went about this. He never described anything about HOW to create a character. He just included information regarding the various
          Message 4 of 13 , Jun 24, 2004
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            On 24 Jun 2004, at 14:08, Bluntaxe wrote:

            > <<
            > allocation of ability points (a flat cost pointbuy,
            > not even significant really)
            > >>
            >
            > Despite being a small thing, isn't this against
            > the d20 OGL?
            >
            > >From the D20 lic.
            >
            > "No Covered Product may contain rules or
            > instructions of any kind that:
            > Describe a process for Creating a Character" and
            > "Character creation means the process of generating
            > and assigning initial scores to abilities...."
            >
            > Really the whole game should have been put
            > under the OGL not the d20 lic.

            Scott was clever in how he went about this.

            He never described anything about HOW to create a character. He just included
            information regarding the various steps in separate, "walled off" sections... and didn't
            tell you what to do with the information.

            It's not a breach to include an ability point buy table, but it is a breach to tell you how
            to use the table, or even that you're supposed to use it.

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          • Orion
            i wondered why that section was so vague. that explains it. -Orion You re born naked and everything else is drag. -RuPaul
            Message 5 of 13 , Jun 24, 2004
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              i wondered why that section was so vague. that explains it.

              -Orion

              "You're born naked and everything else is drag."
              -RuPaul


              Palmer of the Turks wrote:
              > On 24 Jun 2004, at 14:08, Bluntaxe wrote:
              >
              >
              >><<
              >>allocation of ability points (a flat cost pointbuy,
              >>not even significant really)
              >>
              >>Despite being a small thing, isn't this against
              >>the d20 OGL?
              >>
              >>>From the D20 lic.
              >>
              >>"No Covered Product may contain rules or
              >>instructions of any kind that:
              >>Describe a process for Creating a Character" and
              >>"Character creation means the process of generating
              >>and assigning initial scores to abilities...."
              >>
              >>Really the whole game should have been put
              >>under the OGL not the d20 lic.
              >
              >
              > Scott was clever in how he went about this.
              >
              > He never described anything about HOW to create a character. He just included
              > information regarding the various steps in separate, "walled off" sections... and didn't
              > tell you what to do with the information.
              >
              > It's not a breach to include an ability point buy table, but it is a breach to tell you how
              > to use the table, or even that you're supposed to use it.
              >
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            • Palmer of the Turks
              ... Scott explained it on the list, or somewhere, once and I just remember it (me and my knack for trivia) Just like he describes EVERYTHING regarding XP
              Message 6 of 13 , Jun 24, 2004
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                On 24 Jun 2004, at 12:38, Orion wrote:

                > i wondered why that section was so vague. that explains it.

                Scott explained it on the list, or somewhere, once and I just remember it (me and my
                knack for trivia)

                Just like he describes EVERYTHING regarding XP except for the XP table and
                describing levelling up. This is also allowed.

                Also, he left a lot of things vague (like character creation) because he wasn't pitching
                DNW at the n00b crowd (those who need the little "What is an RPG?" chapter at the
                beginning) but rather at people who already knew D&D, and thus know how to make a
                character.

                Incidentally, one thing he said in response to a question some time back about "order
                of character creation" was that you did your stats first... but everything else you did in
                whatever order you pleased. Thus you could do Powers before Skills, and benefit from
                your Enhanced Ability - Int. Same as using Enhanced Abilities to qualify for feats and
                such.

                He said the same applied for feats/stats/etc levelling up... it's something that's logical,
                but not necessarily immediately intuitive.

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              • Orion
                s funny you should mention this, because it took me a good week to sort out what order i wanted to create DNW characters in. i ve always found scott s layout
                Message 7 of 13 , Jun 24, 2004
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                  s'funny you should mention this, because it took me a good week to sort
                  out what order i wanted to create DNW characters in. i've always found
                  scott's layout of hte book to be really counter-intuitive (half of the
                  book is listing under 'building your hero' for example) but it *did*
                  make me consciously aware of the order in which i was doing it. that's
                  when i started noticing the order in which other people make characters,
                  whether in this system or D&D or whatever.

                  my intuition is to jump straight to powers and build the character
                  concept around that, then work backwards to the personality. with
                  superheroes, i want the whole character to fit together. if you're
                  making a speedster, the original personality should be obsessed with
                  fast cars, or always late (a la Barry Allen). a unity between powers and
                  personality makes a more interesting character, to me, than "guy X has
                  powers Y" which happens in comics sometimes and bores the crap out of
                  me. in D&D, though, since there aren't 'powers' as such, i start with
                  the character background and history, and then decide what he or she
                  *would* do with his or life. since powers are often gained
                  'accidentally' (mutation, accident, etc.) i have to anachronise a little
                  with superheroes. with D&D adventurers, i can allow them to pick their
                  own fate.

                  but that's just the way *i* do it. i'd be curious to see how others do this.

                  -Orion

                  "You're born naked and everything else is drag."
                  -RuPaul


                  Palmer of the Turks wrote:
                  > Incidentally, one thing he said in response to a question some time back about "order
                  > of character creation" was that you did your stats first... but everything else you did in
                  > whatever order you pleased. Thus you could do Powers before Skills, and benefit from
                  > your Enhanced Ability - Int. Same as using Enhanced Abilities to qualify for feats and
                  > such.
                  >
                  > He said the same applied for feats/stats/etc levelling up... it's something that's logical,
                  > but not necessarily immediately intuitive.
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