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Vampires

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  • Orion
    the one thing that no one s mentioned is the fact that (under 3.5 rules, anyway) when a PC becomes a vampire, his/her alignment immediately switches to C/E. i
    Message 1 of 18 , Mar 27, 2004
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      the one thing that no one's mentioned is the fact that (under 3.5 rules,
      anyway) when a PC becomes a vampire, his/her alignment immediately switches
      to C/E.

      i know that alignment is opitional in DNW, but to be made into a vamp and
      have *no* ethical/moral consequences removes a major portion of the penalty
      for becoming a vampire. if a GM ignores this rule, there really ought to be
      something else to balance that. otherwise, you're no better than a
      masquerade larper.

      -Orion
    • Palmer of the Turks
      ... I larped Masquerade for 3 years. You got a problem with that? ... I don t see the alignment thing as a penalty or drawback It s just a basic rule of
      Message 2 of 18 , Mar 27, 2004
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        On 27 Mar 2004, at 12:39, Orion wrote:

        > otherwise, you're no better than a masquerade larper.

        I larped Masquerade for 3 years. You got a problem with that?

        :p

        I don't see the alignment thing as a "penalty" or "drawback"
        It's just a "basic rule" of D&D in the D&D cosmos, rather than a universal d20 thing. In
        D&D, Good and Evil are not concepts, they're cosmic forces that are very real. And by
        definition, all non-mindless undead are evil because they're animated by that force.

        There are any number of other concepts behind vampirism, many of which do not
        specify evilness. In Shadowrun, vampirism is caused by a virus - but it doesn't make
        you "evil"
        Masquerade doesn't make you evil either, but they have the whole humanity thing
        going on.

        What about "good" vampires, like Vampire Hunter D, or Blade?

        I say just make up your own vampire template or rules under DNW and run with that.
        This is DNW we're talking about, after all, not D&D

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      • Patrick
        I ve never agreed with all vampires are evil thing in any modern setting. I like the idea that all vampires have as many personalities as normal folk.
        Message 3 of 18 , Mar 27, 2004
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          I've never agreed with all vampires are evil thing in any modern setting.
          I like the idea that all vampires have as many personalities as "normal" folk.

          Palmer of the Turks wrote:
          On 27 Mar 2004, at 12:39, Orion wrote:

          > otherwise, you're no better than a masquerade larper.

          I larped Masquerade for 3 years. You got a problem with that?

          :p

          I don't see the alignment thing as a "penalty" or "drawback"
          It's just a "basic rule" of D&D in the D&D cosmos, rather than a universal d20 thing. In
          D&D, Good and Evil are not concepts, they're cosmic forces that are very real. And by
          definition, all non-mindless undead are evil because they're animated by that force.

          There are any number of other concepts behind vampirism, many of which do not
          specify evilness. In Shadowrun, vampirism is caused by a virus - but it doesn't make
          you "evil"
          Masquerade doesn't make you evil either, but they have the whole humanity thing
          going on.

          What about "good" vampires, like Vampire Hunter D, or Blade?

          I say just make up your own vampire template or rules under DNW and run with that.
          This is DNW we're talking about, after all, not D&D

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        • Jonathan M. Thompson
          Or Angel and Spike. :-D IIRC Vampire Hunter D and Blade are 1/2 vampires, isn’t that correct? Jonathan M. Thompson President, Battlefield Press, Inc.
          Message 4 of 18 , Mar 27, 2004
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            Or Angel and Spike. :-D

            IIRC Vampire Hunter D and Blade are 1/2 vampires, isn’t that correct?

            Jonathan M. Thompson
            President, Battlefield Press, Inc. (http://www.battlefieldpress.com)
            jthompson@... / AIM - GreyLnsman
            Luftwaffe 1946 Role Playing Game - Available April 2004; Eric Flint's
            1632 Role Playing Game - Available July 2004

            Palmer of the Turks wrote:

            What about "good" vampires, like Vampire Hunter D, or Blade?



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          • Palmer of the Turks
            ... Yeah, but they re still vampiric. Plus I couldn t think of any others off the top of my head. Vampire Princess Miyu is definately good-aligned as well.
            Message 5 of 18 , Mar 27, 2004
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              On 27 Mar 2004, at 14:33, Jonathan M. Thompson wrote:

              > Or Angel and Spike. :-D
              >
              > IIRC Vampire Hunter D and Blade are 1/2 vampires, isn’t that correct?

              Yeah, but they're still vampiric. Plus I couldn't think of any others off the top of my
              head.

              Vampire Princess Miyu is definately good-aligned as well.

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            • Orion
              ... i didn t mean to imply that it was an all-around penalty, just that a forced alignment change is part of the penalty of allowing yourself to become a
              Message 6 of 18 , Mar 27, 2004
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                At 12:17 PM 27/03/2004 -0800, you wrote:
                >I don't see the alignment thing as a "penalty" or "drawback" It's just a
                >"basic rule" of D&D in the D&D cosmos, rather than a universal d20 thing. In
                >D&D, Good and Evil are not concepts, they're cosmic forces that are very
                >real. And by definition, all non-mindless undead are evil because they're
                >animated by that force.

                i didn't mean to imply that it was an all-around penalty, just that a
                forced alignment change is part of the penalty of allowing yourself to
                become a vampire.

                >There are any number of other concepts behind vampirism, many of which do not
                >specify evilness. In Shadowrun, vampirism is caused by a virus - but it
                >doesn't make you "evil" Masquerade doesn't make you evil either, but they
                >have the whole humanity thing going on.

                granted, there are lots of other concepts, but this is a game based on D&D,
                and one in which the alignment system is at least an option, so forcing a
                vampire character to become evil seems perfectly reasonable to me.
                otherwise, everybody with a bit of a goth streak is going to want to have
                all the 'powers' of a vampire.


                but, to be honest, a lot of this comes down to my own objection to
                glorifying vampirism in popular culture (the late 90s annoyed me to no
                end). the symbolic resonance of vampirism has always been rape.

                you'll note that count dracula only ever 'penetrates' women in stoker's
                novel (renfield is an exception, but his turning is only implied). being
                attacked by a vampire is akin to the social stigma of rape in the victorian
                period. the woman (it's usually women) is a victim, and yet she's also
                tainted, both spiritually and physically. look at what alan moore did with
                miss. harker in league of extraordinary gentlemen (book, not movie). she
                wasn't even a vampire, but having been 'attacked by a foreigner' was enough
                to make her a monster in victorian society.

                of course, there are other ways to take the basic narrative. of course, you
                can't 'proove' anything in literature, but the overwhelming evidence points
                towards vampires being thinly veiled, supernatural stand-ins for rapists.

                now, by no means do i wish to imply that people who are into vampires and
                masquerade are all secretly rapists or something. far from it. banish that
                thought from your mind.

                what bugs me is that so many people act out the narrative without realising
                the symbolic resonance i've been talking about. specifically, because they
                like the trappings of vampires as we know them (the clothes, the 'creature
                of the night' thing) they make the vampires 'good guys' or at the very
                least 'missunderstood' (shades of Milton's Satan), and therefore come up
                with long, tangled justifications for the vampire point of view. "they're
                just sustaining themselves. they drink blood; we eat cows. what's the
                difference?" this line of thinking completely ignores the
                sexual/mysogynistic aspects of the narrative of the vampire, and the
                historical/contextual imagery involved in a powerful nobleman symbolically
                raping the peasantry of his land.

                to cut a long story less long: i personally find the implications of
                vampirism so repugnant that i'm loath to allow options for vampires to be
                'good guys.'

                >What about "good" vampires, like Vampire Hunter D, or Blade?

                they're rarely, very rarely, done right. Vampire Hunter D barely has a
                personality at all (from what i recall), and Blade... well, he's not all
                vampire. i think the movies did a good job of casting him as a victim
                himself. his mother is certainly a victim of Cross, and he is, by
                extension, a victim of child abuse (sort of). you'll notice that the
                vampires are still 'bad guys.' they still mutilate and kill human beings,
                and that's still 'wrong' in the context of the film (the second film of
                course pissed all over that deceptively complex reading of the situation,
                but the second film pissed all over a lot of things).

                the only other writer who's gotten it right, in my opinion, it joss whedon.
                vampires don't have souls. they have no conscience, no sense of compassion,
                no empathy for living things. they're not 'evil' per se (though that word
                gets thrown around in the script a lot). they haver personalities,
                motivations, they're fully rounded individuals, they just lack the capacity
                to empathise with the suffering of others. that, to me, spells 'evil' in
                the D&D sense. lawful, neutral, chaotic, whatever you like, but still 'evil.'

                >I say just make up your own vampire template or rules under DNW and run
                >with that. This is DNW we're talking about, after all, not D&D

                in game terms, and despite what i've just said, i have to agree. that's
                just the easiest solution. enhanced strength, life draining, night sight,
                toss in a few more powers and you've got yourself a DIY vampire. simplest
                most elegant solution.

                -orion
              • Orion
                they can have personalities and still be evil. check out Buffy. for that matter, characters can have personalities and still be good.
                Message 7 of 18 , Mar 27, 2004
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                  they can have personalities and still be 'evil.' check out Buffy. for that
                  matter, characters can have personalities and still be 'good.'

                  At 02:28 PM 27/03/2004 -0600, you wrote:
                  >I've never agreed with all vampires are evil thing in any modern setting.
                  >I like the idea that all vampires have as many personalities as "normal"
                  >folk.
                • Palmer of the Turks
                  ... It s based on the same rules-set as D&D. BESM d20, under this definition, is based on D&D but it s not. You could say that d20 Modern is based on D&D
                  Message 8 of 18 , Mar 27, 2004
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                    On 27 Mar 2004, at 13:54, Orion wrote:

                    > granted, there are lots of other concepts, but this is a game based on D&D

                    It's based on the same rules-set as D&D.
                    BESM d20, under this definition, is "based on D&D" but it's not.
                    You could say that d20 Modern is "based on D&D" when again, it's not.

                    The dice mechanics are not the system. The settings and trappings are the system.

                    If you took all of Tolkien's Middle Earth stuff, and made stats for it in Fuzion, then
                    played it... would that game be "based on Bubblegum Crisis"?

                    > otherwise, everybody with a bit of a goth streak is going
                    > to want to have all the 'powers' of a vampire.

                    If they want them, they can have them.
                    And they can pay the EP for them as well, thank you very much.

                    If they go and get vamped and "gain" these powers, they'll gain the
                    corresponding EP and tithe in the process. If they don't like that, they can
                    burn. End of discussion :)

                    You make an interesting point about the rape resonance though - that
                    was an interesting read.

                    If you want someone to blame for the modern vampire fetish, lay it all
                    entirely on Anne Rice's head. She's the one who turned them into sex
                    symbols - but then again, she used to write erotica before she did the
                    vampires - and it shows. The act of feeding has replaced sexual ecstasy
                    for vampires.

                    > now, by no means do i wish to imply that people who are
                    > into vampires and masquerade are all secretly rapists or
                    > something. far from it. banish that thought from your mind

                    I was never into Masquerade for the vampires.
                    To paraphrase Canada Bill Jones... "it was the only game in town"
                    I played it to kick ass and take names. Ergo, I played Brujah :)
                    I never once RPed a feeding. And when a Werewolf LARP started, I joined
                    that immediately (though I stuck with the Vamp one because they were
                    different days, and everyone in the WW game was also in the Vamp game
                    too). I much prefer Werewolf over Vampire.

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                  • Palmer of the Turks
                    ... The vampire in my game took the following Darkvision Full - 5 EP Fast healing 1hp/min - 4 EP Nearly Unkillable -25 HP - 3 EP Pheromones, Attraction, 10ft,
                    Message 9 of 18 , Mar 27, 2004
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                      On 27 Mar 2004, at 13:54, Orion wrote:

                      > >I say just make up your own vampire template or rules under DNW and run
                      > >with that. This is DNW we're talking about, after all, not D&D
                      >
                      > in game terms, and despite what i've just said, i have to agree. that's
                      > just the easiest solution. enhanced strength, life draining, night sight,
                      > toss in a few more powers and you've got yourself a DIY vampire. simplest
                      > most elegant solution.

                      The vampire in my game took the following

                      Darkvision Full - 5 EP
                      Fast healing 1hp/min - 4 EP
                      Nearly Unkillable -25 HP - 3 EP
                      Pheromones, Attraction, 10ft, DC 21 - 8 EP
                      Instinctive Fighting +2 BAB - 8 EP
                      Instinctive Dodging +4 AC - 4 EP *
                      Enhanced Ability +6 Int - 9 EP *
                      Enhanced Ability +16 Int - 24 EP *

                      Vulnerability Fire/Heat - -2 EP
                      Animal Antipathy -4 on rolls - -2 EP
                      Photophobia -2 on rolls in light, no damage - -1 EP *
                      Misinterpreted (assumed evil) - -2 EP
                      Undead - -2 EP
                      Nemesis (her creator, serious badass) - -6 EP

                      (note that * items are different from "standard" in cost)

                      Under my costs, she's sitting at 52 EP. The same package under "normal" costs
                      would be 44 EP. Obviously, she's different from "normal" vampires. There's no Life
                      Drain or Fangs or anything - those are "free" and have no game effect

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                    • Orion
                      ... i was going to mention her, yeah. although, there s also the problem of uptake in stoker s novel. see, he wrote it during the industrial revolution. logic
                      Message 10 of 18 , Mar 27, 2004
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                        At 01:25 PM 27/03/2004 -0800, you wrote:
                        >If you want someone to blame for the modern vampire fetish, lay it all
                        >entirely on Anne Rice's head. She's the one who turned them into sex
                        >symbols - but then again, she used to write erotica before she did the
                        >vampires - and it shows. The act of feeding has replaced sexual ecstasy
                        >for vampires.

                        i was going to mention her, yeah.

                        although, there's also the problem of uptake in stoker's novel. see, he
                        wrote it during the industrial revolution. logic was king. mechanics were
                        sent by god. math was all-powerful (notice the number of times the
                        characters say "thank god we have a typewrite! it's a good thing we have
                        money! otherwise, we'd never be able to defeat the count"; this is from a
                        paper i heard about by a prof from SFU, guy named Rick Coe). now, take that
                        very same story and hand it to someone with a romantic sensibility and, hey
                        look!, the character who is emotional, sexual, and strongly associated with
                        nature suddenly becomes the 'good guy.' suddenly it's not about the values
                        expressed by the novel or in the novel; it's about the values the readers
                        have before they even read the book.

                        we tend to look at stoker's very Englightenment book through Romantic
                        glasses, and thereby end up with a radically different sense of the story
                        (and totally ignore the horrific implications of vampirism that i've
                        already talked about at length). look at copolla's version of Dracula: it's
                        a love story.

                        anyway, i think that's all i have to say about vampires. moving on...

                        -orion
                      • Orion
                        what about crosses, sunglight, garlic, all that? the photophobia isn t even close to the instant death effect that s in every movie i ve ever seen. what made
                        Message 11 of 18 , Mar 27, 2004
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                          what about crosses, sunglight, garlic, all that? the photophobia isn't even
                          close to the 'instant death' effect that's in every movie i've ever seen.
                          what made this character a non-standard vamp?

                          At 01:37 PM 27/03/2004 -0800, you wrote:
                          >The vampire in my game took the following
                          >
                          >Darkvision Full - 5 EP
                          >Fast healing 1hp/min - 4 EP
                          >Nearly Unkillable -25 HP - 3 EP
                          >Pheromones, Attraction, 10ft, DC 21 - 8 EP
                          >Instinctive Fighting +2 BAB - 8 EP
                          >Instinctive Dodging +4 AC - 4 EP *
                          >Enhanced Ability +6 Int - 9 EP *
                          >Enhanced Ability +16 Int - 24 EP *
                          >
                          >Vulnerability Fire/Heat - -2 EP
                          >Animal Antipathy -4 on rolls - -2 EP
                          >Photophobia -2 on rolls in light, no damage - -1 EP *
                          >Misinterpreted (assumed evil) - -2 EP
                          >Undead - -2 EP
                          >Nemesis (her creator, serious badass) - -6 EP
                          >
                          >(note that * items are different from "standard" in cost)
                          >
                          >Under my costs, she's sitting at 52 EP. The same package under "normal" costs
                          >would be 44 EP. Obviously, she's different from "normal" vampires. There's
                          >no Life
                          >Drain or Fangs or anything - those are "free" and have no game effect
                          >
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                        • Palmer of the Turks
                          ... Crosses are a christian thing, period. Same with holy water. Sure, they work... but only if your game world is cosmologically defined as Christianity being
                          Message 12 of 18 , Mar 27, 2004
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                            On 27 Mar 2004, at 14:48, Orion wrote:

                            > what about crosses, sunglight, garlic, all that?

                            Crosses are a christian thing, period. Same with holy water.
                            Sure, they work... but only if your game world is cosmologically defined as Christianity
                            being True. Anything else, why should they?

                            Sunlight... depends on your vampire stories. Many have that, but many also have that
                            old and/or powerful vampires are able to resist sunlight or even walk freely in it.

                            Garlic... mmhmm. Italy is Garlic Central, yet they have their own vampire stories.

                            > the photophobia isn't even close to the 'instant death'
                            > effect that's in every movie i've ever seen.

                            And movies are the standard by which all must be judged? :p
                            I let her have a non-standard version of photophobia that has roll penalties for being in
                            sunlight, but no damage.

                            > what made this character a non-standard vamp?

                            Age, mostly. Like, a thousand years of it. Plus it doesn't have the usual life drain stuff,
                            or even the extra strength.


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                          • Orion
                            ... uh, no. look at D&D. no christians to be found, and yet clerics can turn undead and holy symbols can keep vamps at bay. the european vampire legend grew
                            Message 13 of 18 , Mar 27, 2004
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                              At 03:43 PM 27/03/2004 -0800, you wrote:
                              >Crosses are a christian thing, period. Same with holy water.
                              >Sure, they work... but only if your game world is cosmologically defined
                              >as Christianity being True. Anything else, why should they?

                              uh, no. look at D&D. no christians to be found, and yet clerics can turn
                              undead and holy symbols can keep vamps at bay.

                              the european vampire legend grew from a christian culture, no question, but
                              it's no streatch of the imagination to say that vampires don't like any
                              holy symbols... your crosses, your crescents, your 6-pointed stars,
                              whatever. all you need is a world in which divine supernatural forces
                              exist, and *all* comics have that (Thor, Wonder Woman, etc.).

                              >Sunlight... depends on your vampire stories. Many have that, but many also
                              >have that old and/or powerful vampires are able to resist sunlight or even
                              >walk freely in it.

                              example? even chinese vampires don't like the sun. that's pretty much a
                              standard. it goes back to the idea that darkness, nature, nighttime are
                              dangerous in a medieval setting. vampires are very much symbolic of the
                              fear of that darkness. therefore, the sunlight that cancels for the
                              darkness deafeats the vampire. it's an important part of the myth. removing
                              bits and pieces destroys its integrity.

                              >Garlic... mmhmm. Italy is Garlic Central, yet they have their own vampire
                              >stories.

                              italian food happens to have a lot of garlic in it, that doesn't mean that
                              they have more of it there.

                              and really, it's not the garlic itself that's important. what's important
                              is that things like garlic and crosses are everywhere in medieval/early
                              modern europe. every peasant hut has at least one of those two things. the
                              vampire myth, though made literary by stoker, is one invented by common
                              folk. so, of couse the few secret ways to defeat vampires are things that
                              common folk have access to. it's the same with chinese vampires. if you're
                              bitten by one, you're supposed to pack the wound in gloutonous rice to keep
                              from turning into a vampire yourself. and what does every chinese peasant
                              have piles of?

                              again, you have look at the origins of these narratological elements to see
                              how they function within the vampire myth. once you remove one, you remove
                              all the symbolic power behind it, and you've chopped a limb off of what is
                              a fascinating indication of how peasantry of a certain time and place
                              thought, what they were afraid of, and how they coped with that fear.

                              did i mention i'm a grad student in the english department of the
                              university of alberta and i specialise in fantasy and science-fiction?

                              >I let her have a non-standard version of photophobia that has roll
                              >penalties for being in sunlight, but no damage.

                              fair enough. it's your game; it's your call. i'm just saying that the
                              sunlight thing is highly symbolically important, but i've already spewed
                              that rant.

                              >Age, mostly. Like, a thousand years of it. Plus it doesn't have the usual
                              >life drain stuff, or even the extra strength.

                              then she's more of a goul than a vampire, really. miscelaneous undead.

                              just my take on it.

                              -orion
                            • Palmer of the Turks
                              ... Most holy symbols in D&D are not crosses. In fact it says that unless the specific religion says otherwise, the default holy symbol for (I suppose you
                              Message 14 of 18 , Mar 27, 2004
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                                On 27 Mar 2004, at 17:12, Orion wrote:

                                > At 03:43 PM 27/03/2004 -0800, you wrote:
                                > >Crosses are a christian thing, period. Same with holy water.
                                > >Sure, they work... but only if your game world is cosmologically defined
                                > >as Christianity being True. Anything else, why should they?
                                >
                                > uh, no. look at D&D. no christians to be found, and yet clerics can turn
                                > undead and holy symbols can keep vamps at bay.

                                Most holy symbols in D&D are not crosses. In fact it says that unless the specific
                                religion says otherwise, the "default" holy symbol for (I suppose you could call them
                                non-denominational) good clerics is a sun symbol - not a cross.

                                Plus the undead power in D&D is primarily tied into the cosmology that comes
                                predefined - where good and evil are not just words, but are supernatural forces.
                                Undead are animated by evil/negative energy. Good clerics channel their positive/good
                                energy at the undead and make them go poof.
                                This is why evil clerics can rebuke and control undead - they channel the same Evil
                                energy.

                                > > Sunlight... depends on your vampire stories. Many have that,
                                > > but many also have that old and/or powerful vampires are able
                                > > to resist sunlight or even walk freely in it.
                                >
                                > example? even chinese vampires don't like the sun. that's pretty much a
                                > standard. it goes back to the idea that darkness, nature, nighttime are
                                > dangerous in a medieval setting. vampires are very much symbolic of the
                                > fear of that darkness. therefore, the sunlight that cancels for the
                                > darkness deafeats the vampire. it's an important part of the myth.
                                > removing bits and pieces destroys its integrity.

                                http://sarasvati.fateback.com/map1.htm

                                Upier (or Wampir) - Russian vampires appear exactly as normal humans and have a "sting" under their tongue rather than fangs. They are active from noon until midnight. May only be destroyed by burning. When burned, its body will burst, giving rise to hundreds of small, disgusting animals
                                (maggots, rats, etc.). If any of these escape, then the wampir's "spirit" will escape as well, and will later return to seek revenge. These creatures are also called vieszcy and upierczi

                                Vrykolakas - Medieval Greece vampire described as being "swollen" and "distended," vrykolakas can walk in daylight without being harmed. The vrykolakas may only call to be let into a specific house once a night. In addition to sucking blood, vrykolakas also cause nightmares. They may be destroyed
                                by exorcism or burning

                                Mulo - Serbian vampires which normally appear as people wearing white clothes. They are active both day and night, and can assume the shapes of horses or sheep. They eat their victims in addition to drinking their blood

                                There are 3 historical vampire types that are active during daylight hours.
                                Plus in the case of my game, the player was drawing some inspiration and such from
                                the game Soul Reaver, where the enemy vampires come in 3 levels of maturity - but
                                only the youngest are actually vulnerable to sunlight.

                                > again, you have look at the origins of these narratological elements to see
                                > how they function within the vampire myth. once you remove one, you remove
                                > all the symbolic power behind it, and you've chopped a limb off of what is
                                > a fascinating indication of how peasantry of a certain time and place
                                > thought, what they were afraid of, and how they coped with that fear.

                                Actually, on another supers list I'm on, one of the members forwarded an interesting
                                article about vampires... I'll forward it here next post.

                                > did i mention i'm a grad student in the english department of the
                                > university of alberta and i specialise in fantasy and science-fiction?

                                You did not, but go Canada!
                                And that is an uber-kickass specialization!

                                > >Age, mostly. Like, a thousand years of it. Plus it doesn't have the usual
                                > >life drain stuff, or even the extra strength.
                                >
                                > then she's more of a goul than a vampire, really. miscelaneous undead.
                                >
                                > just my take on it.

                                Different powers, different style, same concept.

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                              • Orion
                                ... huh? the sun symbol in the PHB 3.0 is related to the fact that the sample cleric worships a sun god. nothing more than that. ... i think you may have
                                Message 15 of 18 , Mar 27, 2004
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                                  At 04:47 PM 27/03/2004 -0800, you wrote:
                                  >Most holy symbols in D&D are not crosses. In fact it says that unless the
                                  >specific religion says otherwise, the "default" holy symbol for (I suppose
                                  >you could call them non-denominational) good clerics is a sun symbol - not
                                  >a cross.

                                  huh? the sun symbol in the PHB 3.0 is related to the fact that the sample
                                  cleric worships a sun god. nothing more than that.

                                  >Plus the undead power in D&D is primarily tied into the cosmology that comes
                                  >predefined - where good and evil are not just words, but are supernatural
                                  >forces. Undead are animated by evil/negative energy. Good clerics channel
                                  >their positive/good energy at the undead and make them go poof. This is
                                  >why evil clerics can rebuke and control undead - they channel the same
                                  >Evil energy.

                                  i think you may have missed my point. what i meant was that just because
                                  vampires respond negatively to crosses does not necessarily confirm or deny
                                  that a particular narrative (movie, TV show, RPG) is essentially Christian
                                  in its mythology/cosmology. if we plant ourselves in the limited dychotomy
                                  of "christian/pagan" then crosses in vampire stories means "Christian," but
                                  if we abandon the binary model, suddenly we can speculate that cross is
                                  just as baneful to the vampire as the crescent.


                                  cool examples of daytime vamps! i'd never heard of all those different
                                  kinds of creatures. i stand corrected and thank you for the new information
                                  with which i might beat the snot out of my PCs.
                                • Palmer of the Turks
                                  ... Look up Holy Symbol in the equipment list. Holy Symbol, Silver or Wooden: A holy symbol focuses positive energy. Clerics use them as the focuses for their
                                  Message 16 of 18 , Mar 27, 2004
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                                    On 27 Mar 2004, at 20:29, Orion wrote:

                                    > At 04:47 PM 27/03/2004 -0800, you wrote:
                                    > >Most holy symbols in D&D are not crosses. In fact it says that unless the
                                    > >specific religion says otherwise, the "default" holy symbol for (I suppose
                                    > >you could call them non-denominational) good clerics is a sun symbol - not
                                    > >a cross.
                                    >
                                    > huh? the sun symbol in the PHB 3.0 is related to the fact that the sample
                                    > cleric worships a sun god. nothing more than that.

                                    Look up Holy Symbol in the equipment list.

                                    Holy Symbol, Silver or Wooden: A holy symbol focuses positive energy. Clerics use
                                    them as the focuses for their spells and as tools for turning undead. Each religion has
                                    its own holy symbol, and a sun symbol is the default holy symbol for clerics not
                                    associated with any particular religion.

                                    Unholy Symbols: An unholy symbol is like a holy symbol except that it focuses
                                    negative energy and is used by evil clerics (or by neutral clerics who want to cast evil
                                    spells or command undead). A skull is the default unholy symbol for clerics not
                                    associated with any particular religion

                                    The above text is the exact text in the 3.0 PHB, 3.0 SRD and 3.5 SRD.

                                    Nothing to do with a sample character - it explicitly states "not associated with any
                                    particular religion"

                                    > if we plant ourselves in the limited dychotomy
                                    > of "christian/pagan" then crosses in vampire stories means "Christian," but
                                    > if we abandon the binary model, suddenly we can speculate that cross is
                                    > just as baneful to the vampire as the crescent.

                                    If you like the "holy symbol = bad" idea... my preference is for the Masquerade's way
                                    of handling it.
                                    The symbols themselves mean nothing. A vampire can walk into a church as easily as
                                    a slaughterhouse, and they can brush a crucifix away from a neck before taking a bite.

                                    But if a holy symbol is presented by someone who has the True Faith trait for the
                                    matching religion, with the intent to use that faith/symbol/power/etc against the
                                    vampire, then it does work. The holy symbol is not what repels the vampire, but rather
                                    the Faith of the weilder - the holy symbol works as a lens, focussing that will.

                                    > cool examples of daytime vamps! i'd never heard of all those different
                                    > kinds of creatures. i stand corrected and thank you for the new information
                                    > with which i might beat the snot out of my PCs.

                                    You're welcome.

                                    PCs need the snot beaten out of them regularly to keep them from getting cocky.
                                    My group's last fight was a bit much for them... between the 4 group members, they
                                    only had 15 HP left at the end of it.

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                                  • Orion
                                    ... i should really have learned to check these things before making claims. my bad. ... the problem with this is that it assumes the power comes from the
                                    Message 17 of 18 , Mar 27, 2004
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                                      At 08:32 PM 27/03/2004 -0800, you wrote:
                                      > > huh? the sun symbol in the PHB 3.0 is related to the fact that the sample
                                      > > cleric worships a sun god. nothing more than that.
                                      >
                                      >Look up Holy Symbol in the equipment list.

                                      i should really have learned to check these things before making claims. my
                                      bad.

                                      >If you like the "holy symbol = bad" idea... my preference is for the
                                      >Masquerade's way of handling it. The symbols themselves mean nothing. A
                                      >vampire can walk into a church as easily as a slaughterhouse, and they can
                                      >brush a crucifix away from a neck before taking a bite.
                                      >
                                      >But if a holy symbol is presented by someone who has the True Faith trait
                                      >for the matching religion, with the intent to use that
                                      >faith/symbol/power/etc against the vampire, then it does work. The holy
                                      >symbol is not what repels the vampire, but rather the Faith of the weilder
                                      >- the holy symbol works as a lens, focussing that will.

                                      the problem with this is that it assumes the power comes from the
                                      individual, not from the divine energy of a deity. which is to say, it's an
                                      inherently atheist/individualist construction. i'm no bible thumper
                                      (dedicated agnostic, to be precise) but if you remove the deity from the
                                      equation you really mess with the nature of the european vampire.

                                      in essence, what masquerade (which is to say anne rice) does is build
                                      itself a post-christian vampire to suit the tastes of people who don't want
                                      to see the vampire as the arch enemy of religion, or that satisfies the
                                      great number of them who would simply like to ignore the force of religion
                                      on the myth. as i said before, if you start removing elements of the
                                      legend, you totally miss the point of the original construction.

                                      i'm not saying it's 'bad' or 'not allowed.' people can do whatever they
                                      like. i just think if you're going to chose a particular myth or mileu you
                                      should actually stick with it. that's the reason i just roll my eyes and
                                      groan when i read about 'magic items' in D&D that duplicate modern
                                      technology. it's a total violation of the genre of medieval fantasy to have
                                      poeple driving around in 'magic horseless carriages' (cars).

                                      i feel the same way about altering the vampire. it has a coherence and a
                                      unity all its own. yes, there's a great degree of variation between
                                      cultures (which you prooved quite nicely) but even then, i think people
                                      should pick *one* version and stick with it.


                                      but that's just the way i like to do things. a good writer, a good player,
                                      a good GM can always step in, mess with the 'rules,' and make something
                                      beautiful, so really it's all about the execution in the end.
                                    • Valgar/Magnatude/RPK
                                      Well whatever you choose as Vampire-Bane, and we ve all seen a zillion versions of vampires in movies from realistic serial-killers like Mr J Dolmer to Flying
                                      Message 18 of 18 , Mar 27, 2004
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                                        Well whatever you choose as Vampire-Bane, and we've all seen a zillion versions of vampires in movies from realistic serial-killers like Mr J Dolmer to Flying batfaced Lost-boys. as long as you outline your vampire-rules (to yourself as the GM) and stick to them, thing should work out fine.
                                        Let the players find out (the hard way) what their limitations are, this is half the fun sometimes.
                                        Player get bitten/infected... whatever...  (theres no manual for living as vampire) next is the metamorphisis from Human to Vamp (I'd keep all the Vampire lore to my own GM- self, but thats the way I'd do it).
                                        Vampires from Near Dark, Dusk til Dawn, Anne Rice... they all have simular but different weaknesses and its always good to have some element of surprise.
                                        Vampirism Is kinda like Fatherhood.
                                        One day BAM, you go through all the wives-tales and hearsay.  You end up seperating fact from fiction very much on your own
                                        Just some advice on the topic of matching fable-theory to RPG.
                                        GM, set the rules (strengths/weaknesses), stick to them,. Whether players are fed fiction or assumptions about the vampire and wishes to try different things to defeat them... its part of the fun. :) 
                                        ~~RPK~~
                                         
                                         
                                        >If you like the "holy symbol = bad" idea... my preference is for the
                                        >Masquerade's way of handling it. The symbols themselves mean nothing. A
                                        >vampire can walk into a church as easily as a slaughterhouse, and they
                                        can
                                        >brush a crucifix away from a neck before taking a
                                        bite.
                                        >
                                        >But if a holy symbol is presented by someone who has the
                                        True Faith trait
                                        >for the matching religion, with the intent to use that
                                        >faith/symbol/power/etc against the vampire, then it does work. The holy
                                        >symbol is not what repels the vampire, but rather the Faith of the
                                        weilder
                                        >- the holy symbol works as a lens, focussing that
                                        will.

                                        the problem with this is that it assumes the power comes from the
                                        individual, not from the divine energy of a deity. which is to say, it's an
                                        inherently atheist/individualist construction. i'm no bible thumper
                                        (dedicated agnostic, to be precise) but if you remove the deity from the
                                        equation you really mess with the nature of the european vampire.

                                        in essence, what masquerade (which is to say anne rice) does is build
                                        itself a post-christian vampire to suit the tastes of people who don't want
                                        to see the vampire as the arch enemy of religion, or that satisfies the
                                        great number of them who would simply like to ignore the force of religion
                                        on the myth. as i said before, if you start removing elements of the
                                        legend, you totally miss the point of the original construction.

                                        i'm not saying it's 'bad' or 'not allowed.' people can do whatever they
                                        like. i just think if you're going to chose a particular myth or mileu you
                                        should actually stick with it. that's the reason i just roll my eyes and
                                        groan when i read about 'magic items' in D&D that duplicate modern
                                        technology. it's a total violation of the genre of medieval fantasy to have
                                        poeple driving around in 'magic horseless carriages' (cars).

                                        i feel the same way about altering the vampire. it has a coherence and a
                                        unity all its own. yes, there's a great degree of variation between
                                        cultures (which you prooved quite nicely) but even then, i think people
                                        should pick *one* version and stick with it.


                                        but that's just the way i like to do things. a good writer, a good player,
                                        a good GM can always step in, mess with the 'rules,' and make something
                                        beautiful, so really it's all about the execution in the end.
                                         
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