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  • Orion
    meatspace...? i mean, i know what it means, but... when did this become a word? ... -Orion
    Message 1 of 19 , Feb 11, 2004
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      meatspace...?

      i mean, i know what it means, but... when did this become a word?

      >You know, this whole "Where is Scott?" thing is starting to get worrying.
      >Does anyone know anyone who knows him in meatspace?

      -Orion
    • Lizard
      ... My intent was: 1 EP=*2 2 EP=*4 3 EP=*8 However, more realistic games might well have: 1 EP=*2 2 EP=*3 3 EP=*4 (Deletia) ... Yeah, the meteor example
      Message 2 of 19 , Feb 11, 2004
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        At 09:53 PM 2/11/2004, you wrote:

        >I like the PP cost... but the wording should be tweaked a bit.
        >
        >For each EP, it's doubled... does that mean adding one multiple, or
        >exponentially doubling? Is
        >2 EP is x3 or x4 lift? Is 3 EP x4 or x8?

        My intent was:
        1 EP=*2
        2 EP=*4
        3 EP=*8

        However, more 'realistic' games might well have:

        1 EP=*2
        2 EP=*3
        3 EP=*4

        (Deletia)


        >And this is a SMALL meteor. The Barringer Meteorite Crater at Meteor
        >Crater, Ariz is a ile wide
        >and 570 feet deep... and it was caused by a 300 thousand ton meteor.
        >Certainly not planet-
        >threatening in any way.
        >
        >You get the idea, I'm sure.

        Yeah, the 'meteor' example was hyperbole. :) I apologize. I mean, it's not
        as if DNW in general wasn't written in a generally over-the-top editorial tone.

        In the magical world of comic-book physics, though, characters whose
        official "weight limit" is a measly hundred tons or so *regularly* toss
        aside planetkiller asteroids. (Not to mention lifting tanks and not getting
        driven into the ground like a tent peg...)

        You know, this whole "Where is Scott?" thing is starting to get worrying.
        Does anyone know anyone who knows him in meatspace?
      • Lizard
        ... I ve been using it for years.
        Message 3 of 19 , Feb 12, 2004
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          At 10:48 PM 2/11/2004, you wrote:
          >meatspace...?
          >
          >i mean, i know what it means, but... when did this become a word?

          I've been using it for years.
        • Palmer of the Turks
          ... Well, if the force is enough to propel a 200 lb man against gravity and through the air at speeds of greater than 50mph (the cruising speed of the slowest
          Message 4 of 19 , Feb 12, 2004
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            On 11 Feb 2004, at 23:55, Orion wrote:

            > but my point stands: when flying, it's not the characters
            > muscle's that are lifting things, its whatever force is lifting
            > the character that has to shoulder that burden.

            Well, if the force is enough to propel a 200 lb man against gravity and through the air
            at speeds of greater than 50mph (the cruising speed of the slowest Flight is 60mph),
            then I think something as inconsequential as 50lb of gear isn't going to make a real
            difference, honestly.

            The flight energy needs to be enough to both provide sufficient lift/hover power,
            horizontal movement AND power to not only resist gravity, but to defy it and actually
            gain altitude.

            That's a good deal of power right there. Think about it... Up Speed for Average and
            Good is Half Normal.

            Now, there's a fair bit of energy needed just to break gravity. But flight has enough lift
            to not only hold your 200lb character and his gear aloft, but to move upwards at 30mph
            or more! Flight is an inherently goofy power, just like all other super powers. It's also
            POWERFUL.

            Your jet pack may bet better handled as "conventional equipment" rather than a
            gadget.

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          • Palmer of the Turks
            ... It s been in The Free On-Line Dictionary of Computing since 15 Jan 1999, and I ve heard it used at least 3 years before that. ==================== The
            Message 5 of 19 , Feb 12, 2004
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              On 12 Feb 2004, at 0:48, Orion wrote:

              > meatspace...?
              >
              > i mean, i know what it means, but... when did this become a word?

              It's been in "The Free On-Line Dictionary of Computing" since 15 Jan 1999, and I've
              heard it used at least 3 years before that.

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            • Bluntaxe
              I didn t say it was perfect. ;) Just a quick way to tie it to your Flight ability. Personally, I d always go with straight STR and reduce speeds with heavy
              Message 6 of 19 , Feb 12, 2004
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                I didn't say it was perfect. ;) Just a quick way to tie
                it to your Flight ability.
                Personally, I'd always go with straight STR and reduce
                speeds with heavy loads same as the Fly spell.


                ------------------

                On 11 Feb 2004, at 17:30, Bluntaxe wrote:

                > If you really wanted to tie it to Flight, a quick and
                dirty
                > way is to just say
                >
                > Excellent skill = Full STR
                > Good skill = 1/2 STR
                > Average skill = 1/4 STR
                > and then use the rules for reduced speed and encumbrance
                > (reduce speed by 1/3)

                Yeah... but then characters who don't have Excellent get
                the shaft...

                As a rule, fliers tend to be fast rather than strong. So
                say you have a 14 Str flyer (like
                my group)

                Max load is 175. If he only had Average skill, he could
                manage a mere 64 pounds in
                the air... a light load would be a mere 14 pounds - less
                than some armor weighs.
                Effectively, his 14 Str would be as good as 4.

                Another thing to consider about this... say someone has
                Average flight and 400 mph
                worth of speed... so you can assume that putting all the
                "strength" from his flight
                power into flying is enough to drive his body (and it's 40
                pound max load) that fast.

                But what if he only uses 200 mph worth of "strength"? Can
                he use the rest of the
                "thrust" to lift more weight? See where I'm getting here?



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              • Bluntaxe
                Equipment based flight I wouldn t attach the weight limit to the fly power, it would be something setup in the gaget/item design process. Don t have time to
                Message 7 of 19 , Feb 12, 2004
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                  Equipment based flight I wouldn't attach the weight limit
                  to the fly power, it would be something setup in the
                  gaget/item design process. Don't have time to look it
                  over much right now, maybe later.
                  ---------------------------

                  but my point stands: when flying, it's not the characters
                  muscle's that are
                  lifting things, its whatever force is lifting the character
                  that has to
                  should that burden.


                  -Orion




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                • Orion
                  ... okay, forget the jetpack. it was just an example to show the nature of the problem in concrete terms. lemme splain it this way: unless the force providing
                  Message 8 of 19 , Feb 12, 2004
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                    At 02:26 AM 12/02/2004 -0800, you wrote:
                    >Well, if the force is enough to propel a 200 lb man against gravity and
                    >through the air at speeds of greater than 50mph (the cruising speed of the
                    >slowest Flight is 60mph), then I think something as inconsequential as
                    >50lb of gear isn't going to make a real difference, honestly.
                    >
                    >The flight energy needs to be enough to both provide sufficient lift/hover
                    >power, horizontal movement AND power to not only resist gravity, but to
                    >defy it and actually gain altitude.
                    >
                    >That's a good deal of power right there. Think about it... Up Speed for
                    >Average and Good is Half Normal.
                    >
                    >Now, there's a fair bit of energy needed just to break gravity. But flight
                    >has enough lift to not only hold your 200lb character and his gear aloft,
                    >but to move upwards at 30mph or more! Flight is an inherently goofy power,
                    >just like all other super powers. It's also POWERFUL.
                    >
                    >Your jet pack may bet better handled as "conventional equipment" rather
                    >than a gadget.

                    okay, forget the jetpack. it was just an example to show the nature of the
                    problem in concrete terms.

                    lemme 'splain it this way: unless the force providing a character with
                    strength has the same origin as the force providing a character with
                    flight, the two really have to be considered separately.

                    to go with the most obvious example, let's talk about Superman.

                    in his original incarnation, he was super-strong because of the density of
                    his body, and could fly out of some kind of 'krypton had heavier gravity'
                    explanation (which makes no sense, but it was pre-crisis). so, his ability
                    to fly really had nothing to do with his muscles.

                    post-crisis, john byrne re-wrote the rules, stating that all of Superman's
                    powers were based on a subconscious form of telekinesis. hence, his
                    strength, flight, and invulnerability all have a common origin, and it
                    makes sense that he can lift as much while in the air as he can while on
                    the ground.

                    so it seems to me that part of the Flight power should be a set weight
                    capacity. this would function separately than the Strength weight capacity.
                    to determine whether a character can lift something while aloft, the
                    *lower* of the two should be used.

                    it's no good putting a fork-lift on a glider. no matter how poweful the
                    fork-lift, the glider can only carry so much weight before it crashes to
                    earth.


                    -Orion
                  • Palmer of the Turks
                    ... I fully understand what you re saying... but what I m saying is that the power behind Flight is INCREDIBLE when compared to conventional power. Even the
                    Message 9 of 19 , Feb 13, 2004
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                      On 12 Feb 2004, at 20:45, Orion wrote:

                      > >Your jet pack may bet better handled as "conventional equipment" rather
                      > >than a gadget.
                      >
                      > okay, forget the jetpack. it was just an example to show the nature of the
                      > problem in concrete terms.

                      I fully understand what you're saying... but what I'm saying is that the "power" behind
                      Flight is INCREDIBLE when compared to conventional power.
                      Even the lowest, cheapest level of Flight is capable of propelling the character (naked,
                      if you will) straight upwards against the pull of gravity at a speed of 30mph - nothing to
                      sneeze at. At that rate you can hit orbit in a couple hours.
                      Now think about the amount of force required to lift anything else into orbit - fast or slow

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                    • JarethValar
                      One option I saw somewhere (not sure if it was published or a friends) was to break Flight up into Str and Dex (for the flight power). Str could go faster/lift
                      Message 10 of 19 , Feb 15, 2004
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                        One option I saw somewhere (not sure if it was published or a friends) was to break Flight up into Str and Dex (for the flight power).
                         
                        Str could go faster/lift more; Dex was more maneuverable and agile.
                         
                        Just a thought to those who might want to explore the concept further.
                         
                        Also, Orion, if Flight is the force that lifts, then wouldn't the default Strength of the Flight power be based on the characters weight and light load?  I mean, for there to be no penalty on movement when carrying a load, it has to be under the characters Light threshold.
                         
                        So for your average (180 lb.) male character, the Flight "Strength" would have to be 23 (Light load of 200 lbs.)  Seems abit odd in thought to me.  Easier to base it off of the character Str score for no other reason than not to complicate things further.
                         
                        Also you have to concider, a character has to lift/carry things in flight somehow, usually with their arms.  This would still be limited to the characters Str score, no matter HOW much thrust/power they have.
                         
                        I just think it's a whole lot easier to use the basic Str for things.  If you want to represent "Super Flight" just buy Mighty Lifting and limit it to "Only in Flight"
                         
                        Jareth
                        ----- Original Message -----
                        Sent: Friday, February 13, 2004 7:14 AM
                        Subject: Re: [deedsnotwordsd20] Strength & Lifting while Flying

                        On 12 Feb 2004, at 20:45, Orion wrote:

                        > >Your jet pack may bet better handled as "conventional equipment" rather
                        > >than a gadget.
                        >
                        > okay, forget the jetpack. it was just an example to show the nature of the
                        > problem in concrete terms.

                        I fully understand what you're saying... but what I'm saying is that the "power" behind
                        Flight is INCREDIBLE when compared to conventional power.
                        Even the lowest, cheapest level of Flight is capable of propelling the character (naked,
                        if you will) straight upwards against the pull of gravity at a speed of 30mph - nothing to
                        sneeze at. At that rate you can hit orbit in a couple hours.
                        Now think about the amount of force required to lift anything else into orbit - fast or slow

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