Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Re: [deedsnotwordsd20] Strength & Lifting while Flying

Expand Messages
  • Orion
    ... shit. i m thinking of levitation (100lbs/level in 2nd ed.). my bad. i always thought Fly *should* have a weight limit, and have a tendency to edit one in.
    Message 1 of 19 , Feb 11, 2004
    View Source
    • 0 Attachment
      At 10:16 PM 11/02/2004 -0800, you wrote:
      >Er... I just looked up flight.
      >
      >No mention of a weight limit... except for that dictated by Strength!
      >
      >3.5 SRD paste: (the 3.0 version is identical except it says 90ft/60ft)
      >
      >The subject can fly at a speed of 60 feet (or 40 feet if it wears medium
      >or heavy armor, or if it carries a medium or heavy load). It can ascend at
      >half speed and descend at double speed, and its maneuverability is good.
      >Using a fly spell requires only as much concentration as walking, so the
      >subject can attack or cast spells normally. The subject of a fly spell can
      >charge but not run, and it cannot carry aloft more weight than its maximum
      >load, plus any armor it wears
      >
      >The 2nd Ed version doesn't mention weight at all.
      >
      >So, er, yeah... there you go.

      shit. i'm thinking of levitation (100lbs/level in 2nd ed.). my bad. i
      always thought Fly *should* have a weight limit, and have a tendency to
      edit one in.

      but my point stands: when flying, it's not the characters muscle's that are
      lifting things, its whatever force is lifting the character that has to
      should that burden.


      -Orion
    • Orion
      meatspace...? i mean, i know what it means, but... when did this become a word? ... -Orion
      Message 2 of 19 , Feb 11, 2004
      View Source
      • 0 Attachment
        meatspace...?

        i mean, i know what it means, but... when did this become a word?

        >You know, this whole "Where is Scott?" thing is starting to get worrying.
        >Does anyone know anyone who knows him in meatspace?

        -Orion
      • Lizard
        ... My intent was: 1 EP=*2 2 EP=*4 3 EP=*8 However, more realistic games might well have: 1 EP=*2 2 EP=*3 3 EP=*4 (Deletia) ... Yeah, the meteor example
        Message 3 of 19 , Feb 11, 2004
        View Source
        • 0 Attachment
          At 09:53 PM 2/11/2004, you wrote:

          >I like the PP cost... but the wording should be tweaked a bit.
          >
          >For each EP, it's doubled... does that mean adding one multiple, or
          >exponentially doubling? Is
          >2 EP is x3 or x4 lift? Is 3 EP x4 or x8?

          My intent was:
          1 EP=*2
          2 EP=*4
          3 EP=*8

          However, more 'realistic' games might well have:

          1 EP=*2
          2 EP=*3
          3 EP=*4

          (Deletia)


          >And this is a SMALL meteor. The Barringer Meteorite Crater at Meteor
          >Crater, Ariz is a ile wide
          >and 570 feet deep... and it was caused by a 300 thousand ton meteor.
          >Certainly not planet-
          >threatening in any way.
          >
          >You get the idea, I'm sure.

          Yeah, the 'meteor' example was hyperbole. :) I apologize. I mean, it's not
          as if DNW in general wasn't written in a generally over-the-top editorial tone.

          In the magical world of comic-book physics, though, characters whose
          official "weight limit" is a measly hundred tons or so *regularly* toss
          aside planetkiller asteroids. (Not to mention lifting tanks and not getting
          driven into the ground like a tent peg...)

          You know, this whole "Where is Scott?" thing is starting to get worrying.
          Does anyone know anyone who knows him in meatspace?
        • Lizard
          ... I ve been using it for years.
          Message 4 of 19 , Feb 12, 2004
          View Source
          • 0 Attachment
            At 10:48 PM 2/11/2004, you wrote:
            >meatspace...?
            >
            >i mean, i know what it means, but... when did this become a word?

            I've been using it for years.
          • Palmer of the Turks
            ... Well, if the force is enough to propel a 200 lb man against gravity and through the air at speeds of greater than 50mph (the cruising speed of the slowest
            Message 5 of 19 , Feb 12, 2004
            View Source
            • 0 Attachment
              On 11 Feb 2004, at 23:55, Orion wrote:

              > but my point stands: when flying, it's not the characters
              > muscle's that are lifting things, its whatever force is lifting
              > the character that has to shoulder that burden.

              Well, if the force is enough to propel a 200 lb man against gravity and through the air
              at speeds of greater than 50mph (the cruising speed of the slowest Flight is 60mph),
              then I think something as inconsequential as 50lb of gear isn't going to make a real
              difference, honestly.

              The flight energy needs to be enough to both provide sufficient lift/hover power,
              horizontal movement AND power to not only resist gravity, but to defy it and actually
              gain altitude.

              That's a good deal of power right there. Think about it... Up Speed for Average and
              Good is Half Normal.

              Now, there's a fair bit of energy needed just to break gravity. But flight has enough lift
              to not only hold your 200lb character and his gear aloft, but to move upwards at 30mph
              or more! Flight is an inherently goofy power, just like all other super powers. It's also
              POWERFUL.

              Your jet pack may bet better handled as "conventional equipment" rather than a
              gadget.

              ====================
              The above email was brought to you by Shinra Online
              http://www.shinraonline.com
              Click it... you know you want to.
            • Palmer of the Turks
              ... It s been in The Free On-Line Dictionary of Computing since 15 Jan 1999, and I ve heard it used at least 3 years before that. ==================== The
              Message 6 of 19 , Feb 12, 2004
              View Source
              • 0 Attachment
                On 12 Feb 2004, at 0:48, Orion wrote:

                > meatspace...?
                >
                > i mean, i know what it means, but... when did this become a word?

                It's been in "The Free On-Line Dictionary of Computing" since 15 Jan 1999, and I've
                heard it used at least 3 years before that.

                ====================
                The above email was brought to you by Shinra Online
                http://www.shinraonline.com
                Click it... you know you want to.
              • Bluntaxe
                I didn t say it was perfect. ;) Just a quick way to tie it to your Flight ability. Personally, I d always go with straight STR and reduce speeds with heavy
                Message 7 of 19 , Feb 12, 2004
                View Source
                • 0 Attachment
                  I didn't say it was perfect. ;) Just a quick way to tie
                  it to your Flight ability.
                  Personally, I'd always go with straight STR and reduce
                  speeds with heavy loads same as the Fly spell.


                  ------------------

                  On 11 Feb 2004, at 17:30, Bluntaxe wrote:

                  > If you really wanted to tie it to Flight, a quick and
                  dirty
                  > way is to just say
                  >
                  > Excellent skill = Full STR
                  > Good skill = 1/2 STR
                  > Average skill = 1/4 STR
                  > and then use the rules for reduced speed and encumbrance
                  > (reduce speed by 1/3)

                  Yeah... but then characters who don't have Excellent get
                  the shaft...

                  As a rule, fliers tend to be fast rather than strong. So
                  say you have a 14 Str flyer (like
                  my group)

                  Max load is 175. If he only had Average skill, he could
                  manage a mere 64 pounds in
                  the air... a light load would be a mere 14 pounds - less
                  than some armor weighs.
                  Effectively, his 14 Str would be as good as 4.

                  Another thing to consider about this... say someone has
                  Average flight and 400 mph
                  worth of speed... so you can assume that putting all the
                  "strength" from his flight
                  power into flying is enough to drive his body (and it's 40
                  pound max load) that fast.

                  But what if he only uses 200 mph worth of "strength"? Can
                  he use the rest of the
                  "thrust" to lift more weight? See where I'm getting here?



                  ====================
                  The above email was brought to you by Shinra Online
                  http://www.shinraonline.com
                  Click it... you know you want to.


                  ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor


                  Yahoo! Groups Links
                • Bluntaxe
                  Equipment based flight I wouldn t attach the weight limit to the fly power, it would be something setup in the gaget/item design process. Don t have time to
                  Message 8 of 19 , Feb 12, 2004
                  View Source
                  • 0 Attachment
                    Equipment based flight I wouldn't attach the weight limit
                    to the fly power, it would be something setup in the
                    gaget/item design process. Don't have time to look it
                    over much right now, maybe later.
                    ---------------------------

                    but my point stands: when flying, it's not the characters
                    muscle's that are
                    lifting things, its whatever force is lifting the character
                    that has to
                    should that burden.


                    -Orion




                    Yahoo! Groups Links
                  • Orion
                    ... okay, forget the jetpack. it was just an example to show the nature of the problem in concrete terms. lemme splain it this way: unless the force providing
                    Message 9 of 19 , Feb 12, 2004
                    View Source
                    • 0 Attachment
                      At 02:26 AM 12/02/2004 -0800, you wrote:
                      >Well, if the force is enough to propel a 200 lb man against gravity and
                      >through the air at speeds of greater than 50mph (the cruising speed of the
                      >slowest Flight is 60mph), then I think something as inconsequential as
                      >50lb of gear isn't going to make a real difference, honestly.
                      >
                      >The flight energy needs to be enough to both provide sufficient lift/hover
                      >power, horizontal movement AND power to not only resist gravity, but to
                      >defy it and actually gain altitude.
                      >
                      >That's a good deal of power right there. Think about it... Up Speed for
                      >Average and Good is Half Normal.
                      >
                      >Now, there's a fair bit of energy needed just to break gravity. But flight
                      >has enough lift to not only hold your 200lb character and his gear aloft,
                      >but to move upwards at 30mph or more! Flight is an inherently goofy power,
                      >just like all other super powers. It's also POWERFUL.
                      >
                      >Your jet pack may bet better handled as "conventional equipment" rather
                      >than a gadget.

                      okay, forget the jetpack. it was just an example to show the nature of the
                      problem in concrete terms.

                      lemme 'splain it this way: unless the force providing a character with
                      strength has the same origin as the force providing a character with
                      flight, the two really have to be considered separately.

                      to go with the most obvious example, let's talk about Superman.

                      in his original incarnation, he was super-strong because of the density of
                      his body, and could fly out of some kind of 'krypton had heavier gravity'
                      explanation (which makes no sense, but it was pre-crisis). so, his ability
                      to fly really had nothing to do with his muscles.

                      post-crisis, john byrne re-wrote the rules, stating that all of Superman's
                      powers were based on a subconscious form of telekinesis. hence, his
                      strength, flight, and invulnerability all have a common origin, and it
                      makes sense that he can lift as much while in the air as he can while on
                      the ground.

                      so it seems to me that part of the Flight power should be a set weight
                      capacity. this would function separately than the Strength weight capacity.
                      to determine whether a character can lift something while aloft, the
                      *lower* of the two should be used.

                      it's no good putting a fork-lift on a glider. no matter how poweful the
                      fork-lift, the glider can only carry so much weight before it crashes to
                      earth.


                      -Orion
                    • Palmer of the Turks
                      ... I fully understand what you re saying... but what I m saying is that the power behind Flight is INCREDIBLE when compared to conventional power. Even the
                      Message 10 of 19 , Feb 13, 2004
                      View Source
                      • 0 Attachment
                        On 12 Feb 2004, at 20:45, Orion wrote:

                        > >Your jet pack may bet better handled as "conventional equipment" rather
                        > >than a gadget.
                        >
                        > okay, forget the jetpack. it was just an example to show the nature of the
                        > problem in concrete terms.

                        I fully understand what you're saying... but what I'm saying is that the "power" behind
                        Flight is INCREDIBLE when compared to conventional power.
                        Even the lowest, cheapest level of Flight is capable of propelling the character (naked,
                        if you will) straight upwards against the pull of gravity at a speed of 30mph - nothing to
                        sneeze at. At that rate you can hit orbit in a couple hours.
                        Now think about the amount of force required to lift anything else into orbit - fast or slow

                        ====================
                        The above email was brought to you by Shinra Online
                        http://www.shinraonline.com
                        Click it... you know you want to.
                      • JarethValar
                        One option I saw somewhere (not sure if it was published or a friends) was to break Flight up into Str and Dex (for the flight power). Str could go faster/lift
                        Message 11 of 19 , Feb 15, 2004
                        View Source
                        • 0 Attachment
                          One option I saw somewhere (not sure if it was published or a friends) was to break Flight up into Str and Dex (for the flight power).
                           
                          Str could go faster/lift more; Dex was more maneuverable and agile.
                           
                          Just a thought to those who might want to explore the concept further.
                           
                          Also, Orion, if Flight is the force that lifts, then wouldn't the default Strength of the Flight power be based on the characters weight and light load?  I mean, for there to be no penalty on movement when carrying a load, it has to be under the characters Light threshold.
                           
                          So for your average (180 lb.) male character, the Flight "Strength" would have to be 23 (Light load of 200 lbs.)  Seems abit odd in thought to me.  Easier to base it off of the character Str score for no other reason than not to complicate things further.
                           
                          Also you have to concider, a character has to lift/carry things in flight somehow, usually with their arms.  This would still be limited to the characters Str score, no matter HOW much thrust/power they have.
                           
                          I just think it's a whole lot easier to use the basic Str for things.  If you want to represent "Super Flight" just buy Mighty Lifting and limit it to "Only in Flight"
                           
                          Jareth
                          ----- Original Message -----
                          Sent: Friday, February 13, 2004 7:14 AM
                          Subject: Re: [deedsnotwordsd20] Strength & Lifting while Flying

                          On 12 Feb 2004, at 20:45, Orion wrote:

                          > >Your jet pack may bet better handled as "conventional equipment" rather
                          > >than a gadget.
                          >
                          > okay, forget the jetpack. it was just an example to show the nature of the
                          > problem in concrete terms.

                          I fully understand what you're saying... but what I'm saying is that the "power" behind
                          Flight is INCREDIBLE when compared to conventional power.
                          Even the lowest, cheapest level of Flight is capable of propelling the character (naked,
                          if you will) straight upwards against the pull of gravity at a speed of 30mph - nothing to
                          sneeze at. At that rate you can hit orbit in a couple hours.
                          Now think about the amount of force required to lift anything else into orbit - fast or slow

                          ====================
                          The above email was brought to you by Shinra Online
                          http://www.shinraonline.com
                          Click it... you know you want to.
                        Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.