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Re: [decentralization] Laptop Versus Axe

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  • Zooko O'Whielacronx
    ... That s a very good question. The minimal answer is Yes . The short answer is that you don t rely on the storage servers for confidentiality (all data is
    Message 1 of 9 , Apr 29, 2009
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      On Tue, Apr 28, 2009 at 10:52 PM, Lucas Gonze <lucas@...> wrote:
      >
      > Are you expecting it to be used by nodes that cross an administrative
      > boundary?

      That's a very good question. The minimal answer is "Yes". The short
      answer is that you don't rely on the storage servers for
      confidentiality (all data is encrypted) nor for integrity (all data is
      either hashed if immutable or signed if mutable), but you do rely on
      the storage servers to be somewhat reliable. If any K (typically 3)
      out of M (typically 10) of the storage servers are reachable and
      well-behaved then you can use your file, so you don't require *high*
      reliability from your servers, but you do require a certain reasonable
      amount of reliability. Certainly it would fail if you just picked ten
      random strangers from the Internet and hoped that at least three of
      them would loyally store your file for you and make their servers
      reachable when you wanted it. (Which is fairly close to what Mojo
      Nation and Mnet and non-darknet-Freenet attempted.)

      So this means that you don't have to entrust your secrets and the
      integrity of your data to the server operators, but you do need some
      reason to think that the server operators will keep maintaining the
      servers and letting you connect to them in the future. The two kinds
      of deployment so far are the allmydata.com use case in which a company
      operates hundreds of servers and customers pay a monthly fee to get
      access, and the friendnet (what Ian Clarke named "darknet") use case,
      where a group of friends all let each other use their computers out of
      love.

      Regards,

      Zooko
    • Lucas Gonze
      Zooko O Whielacronx wrote: The two kinds ... This makes me think of a hybrid model where there s a coop of businesses or sophisticated friends. Maybe 5-100
      Message 2 of 9 , May 1, 2009
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        Zooko O'Whielacronx wrote:
        The two kinds
        > of deployment so far are the allmydata.com use case in which a company
        > operates hundreds of servers and customers pay a monthly fee to get
        > access, and the friendnet (what Ian Clarke named "darknet") use case,
        > where a group of friends all let each other use their computers out of
        > love.

        This makes me think of a hybrid model where there's a coop of businesses
        or sophisticated friends. Maybe 5-100 companies.

        What's the latency like? How does it feel on an application level to
        use this instead of a typical SAN?
      • David Barrett
        That s interesting. Just curious, is it easy to deploy this in a web-facing manner? For example, at Expensify we store a bunch of receipt images. We
        Message 3 of 9 , May 1, 2009
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          That's interesting. Just curious, is it easy to deploy this in a
          web-facing manner? For example, at Expensify we store a bunch of
          receipt images. We currently do it with S3, and they're fine, but I'm
          always interested in alternatives. If I got a handful of dedicated
          servers scattered around the world, all with huge hard drives, could I
          easily configure Tahoe in conjunction with a webserver to:

          1) Upload a receipt to any server using HTTP PUT

          2) Fetch a receipt image from any server using HTTP GET

          3) Automatically balance redundant storage such that DNS load balancing
          "just works" for both uploads and downloads

          Does it do this out of the box by some miracle? If coding is involved,
          can you give me a quick overview of the steps I'd need to take?
          (standalone C++, lighttpd/PHP, anything is fine.)

          Thanks!

          -david

          Lucas Gonze wrote:
          > Zooko O'Whielacronx wrote:
          > The two kinds
          >> of deployment so far are the allmydata.com use case in which a company
          >> operates hundreds of servers and customers pay a monthly fee to get
          >> access, and the friendnet (what Ian Clarke named "darknet") use case,
          >> where a group of friends all let each other use their computers out of
          >> love.
          >
          > This makes me think of a hybrid model where there's a coop of businesses
          > or sophisticated friends. Maybe 5-100 companies.
          >
          > What's the latency like? How does it feel on an application level to
          > use this instead of a typical SAN?
          >
          >
          >
          > ------------------------------------
          >
          > Yahoo! Groups Links
          >
          >
          >
        • Zooko O'Whielacronx
          ... Yeah! Because a company is more reliable and available and has a lot more capital than one of your friends, but you don t want to put all your eggs in one
          Message 4 of 9 , May 2, 2009
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            On Fri, May 1, 2009 at 8:17 PM, Lucas Gonze <lucas@...> wrote:
            >
            > This makes me think of a hybrid model where there's a coop of businesses
            > or sophisticated friends. Maybe 5-100 companies.

            Yeah! Because a company is more reliable and available and has a lot
            more capital than one of your friends, but you don't want to put all
            your eggs in one corporate basket.


            > What's the latency like? How does it feel on an application level to
            > use this instead of a typical SAN?

            Hm, well here are some measurements:

            http://allmydata.org/tahoe-figleaf-graph/hanford.allmydata.com-tahoe_speedstats_delay.html


            But probably you'll get a better idea by experimenting with it:

            http://testgrid.allmydata.org:3567/uri/URI%3ADIR2%3Adjrdkfawoqihigoett4g6auz6a%3Ajx5mplfpwexnoqff7y5e4zjus4lidm76dcuarpct7cckorh2dpgq/

            (Warning: that grid is populated by "whoever reads
            http://allmydata.org and connects", so I can't vouch for its
            performance.)


            Regards,

            Zooko
          • Zooko O'Whielacronx
            ... Well, yeah it is pretty close to this already. The Tahoe web API listens for PUT and GET, as documented here:
            Message 5 of 9 , May 2, 2009
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              On Fri, May 1, 2009 at 8:24 PM, David Barrett <dbarrett@...> wrote:
              >
              > 1) Upload a receipt to any server using HTTP PUT
              ...
              > 2) Fetch a receipt image from any server using HTTP GET
              ...
              > 3) Automatically balance redundant storage such that DNS load balancing
              > "just works" for both uploads and downloads
              >
              > Does it do this out of the box by some miracle?

              Well, yeah it is pretty close to this already. The Tahoe web API
              listens for PUT and GET, as documented here:

              http://allmydata.org/trac/tahoe/browser/docs/frontends/webapi.txt

              (This is similar but not identical to the S3 API. I keep thinking we
              should try to make them more similar, or put an S3 layer on the Tahoe
              web api... If you experiment with converting from S3 to Tahoe please
              let us know what you learn.)

              Give it a try!

              Regards,

              Zooko
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