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Re: [decentralization] Generalizing Peer Production into the Physical World

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  • Lucas Gonze
    ... EG, pi is implicit in every circular object. That makes it even more durable than the objects. ... Here is an example of seeping -- I have been playing
    Message 1 of 28 , Nov 10, 2007
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      Julian Bond wrote:
      > Err, what? The World of Ideas certainly does exist.

      EG, pi is implicit in every circular object. That makes it even more
      durable than the objects.


      > But I'm twisting the
      > original ideas. The point being that the virtual world of the internet
      > keeps seeping out into the real world.


      Here is an example of seeping --

      I have been playing historical American music on guitar*. I learn it
      from scans of sheet music in historical archives at sites like the
      Library of Congress' and Duke University's. These archives contain
      primary sources intended for professional historians of music. They
      aren't for musicians to use in an everyday context, they are for the
      same people who also travel to go to specialized music libraries. I'm
      not one of those people. I'm using these resources to make music in
      places like bars and coffeehouses.

      I wouldn't go to a specialized music library to find stuff to play. I
      did try a couple times, but both times the work was way out of line with
      the goal. You need a series of appointments in-person, plus permission
      and equipment to make copies.

      There's nothing about my playing which is digital. It's as analog as I
      can make it. But this real world activity is only possible because of
      the internet. The compositions were long forgotten, usually lost to
      non-historians for at least a hundred years, and they showed few signs
      of life. And even if the sheet music were still in circulation in book
      stores, the practice of reading music is not very common.

      It only becomes possible for this music to be reanimated when the
      internet makes the archives available to enough eyeballs that they meet
      up with ordinary musicians who are able to read music and willing to
      play hopelessly obscure material. It's an internet solution to a
      physical problem. The stuff on either end is physical; there's
      historical sheet music on one side, and guitar players at open mic
      nights on the other side. But in the middle is the internet.

      And it's not an internet solution in the sense in which email is an
      incremental improvement on snail mail. The internet created the
      critical mass to enable peer production.

      -Lucas

      * see http://blog.gonze.com/category/mymusic/ for examples
    • Mike Dierken
      ... But the Internet is physical (electrons, silicon, copper, glass fiber, etc) ideas are not. That s the exists I was referring to. The statement that
      Message 2 of 28 , Nov 10, 2007
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        > It's an internet solution to a
        > physical problem. The stuff on either end is physical; there's
        > historical sheet music on one side, and guitar players at open mic
        > nights on the other side. But in the middle is the internet.
        >
        But the Internet is physical (electrons, silicon, copper, glass fiber, etc)
        ideas are not. That's the "exists" I was referring to.
        The statement that "[...] (the world of ideas) is increasingly
        indistinguishable from the world of things." seems ridiculous. Ideas
        actually are distinguishable from things. Sure, ideas can affect people and
        change their behavior and mass digital media has increased that rate of
        change, so it's extremely important. But saying they are indistinguishable
        sounds like intellectual puffery.
      • Julian Bond
        Mike Dierken Sat, 10 Nov 2007 21:32:52 ... You re right of course. It s one of those trolls that sounds deep but doesn t actually say very
        Message 3 of 28 , Nov 11, 2007
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          Mike Dierken <dierken@...> Sat, 10 Nov 2007 21:32:52
          >But the Internet is physical (electrons, silicon, copper, glass fiber, etc)
          >ideas are not. That's the "exists" I was referring to.
          >The statement that "[...] (the world of ideas) is increasingly
          >indistinguishable from the world of things." seems ridiculous. Ideas
          >actually are distinguishable from things. Sure, ideas can affect people and
          >change their behavior and mass digital media has increased that rate of
          >change, so it's extremely important. But saying they are indistinguishable
          >sounds like intellectual puffery.

          You're right of course. It's one of those trolls that sounds deep but
          doesn't actually say very much. We've been having this debate at least
          since Negroponte's atoms vs bits and the philosophical underpinnings go
          back much further than that. But there does seem to be a qualitative
          change when so many of us make a living from manipulating symbols in the
          virtual world which then allows us to buy shiny toys in the real world.

          When an SUV driver blindly follows their GPS into a river and gets
          stuck, apart from being stupid, isn't that a failure to distinguish
          between the world of ideas and the world of things? Or is it just the
          same thing we've been doing for centuries in mistaking lines of ink on a
          map for real divisions between humans. Or a classic example of a 21st
          century behaviour; placing blind faith in technology before the evidence
          of our own senses and intelligence.[1]

          [1]Easy Travel To Other Planets. Ted Mooney. Two new emotions appeared
          in the 20th century. The feeling of being entirely alone in a crowd. The
          feeling of running as fast as possible without going anywhere.

          --
          Julian Bond E&MSN: julian_bond at voidstar.com M: +44 (0)77 5907 2173
          Webmaster: http://www.ecademy.com/ T: +44 (0)192 0412 433
          Personal WebLog: http://www.voidstar.com/ skype:julian.bond?chat
          *** Just Say No To DRM ***
        • Miles Fidelman
          ... More to play devil s advocate on a Sunday morning, than anything else... Are ideas indistinguishable from things, or vice versa? Ideas are often
          Message 4 of 28 , Nov 11, 2007
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            Mike Dierken wrote:
            >> It's an internet solution to a
            >> physical problem. The stuff on either end is physical; there's
            >> historical sheet music on one side, and guitar players at open mic
            >> nights on the other side. But in the middle is the internet.
            >>
            >>
            > But the Internet is physical (electrons, silicon, copper, glass fiber, etc)
            > ideas are not. That's the "exists" I was referring to.
            > The statement that "[...] (the world of ideas) is increasingly
            > indistinguishable from the world of things." seems ridiculous. Ideas
            > actually are distinguishable from things. Sure, ideas can affect people and
            > change their behavior and mass digital media has increased that rate of
            > change, so it's extremely important. But saying they are indistinguishable
            > sounds like intellectual puffery.
            >
            More to play devil's advocate on a Sunday morning, than anything else...

            Are ideas indistinguishable from things, or vice versa?

            Ideas are often stored/represented as states of matter, or systems
            behavior. Consider:

            - the difference between two books: they may weigh the same, but what's
            printed on the pages makes all the difference, or,

            - a computer running a specific program behaves very differently than
            one running a different program, or one that's halted (and that can
            effect very physical things like energy used by that machine, or,

            - the physical states of our bodies are very much interdependent with
            what we are thinking, the activities of our autonomic nervous systems,
            and the state of various chemicals (natural and otherwise) in our
            bloodstreams.

            Is an endorphin "high" an idea or a physical state or both? What about
            being agitated?

            And then you can always look toward basic physics: energy and matter are
            interchangeable, as are energy and information content (entropy).
          • Scott Feamster
            In the middle, it s people among tangibles (sheet music and mics) and intangibles (thoughts and emotions). In the end, it s the intangibles that give our lives
            Message 5 of 28 , Nov 11, 2007
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              In the middle, it's people among tangibles (sheet music and mics) and
              intangibles (thoughts and emotions).

              In the end, it's the intangibles that give our lives meaning; e.g., love.

              Love is energy created by matter.

              -----Original Message-----
              From: decentralization@yahoogroups.com
              [mailto:decentralization@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Miles Fidelman
              Sent: Sunday, November 11, 2007 7:36 AM
              To: decentralization@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: Re: [decentralization] Generalizing Peer Production into the
              Physical World


              Mike Dierken wrote:
              >> It's an internet solution to a
              >> physical problem. The stuff on either end is physical; there's
              >> historical sheet music on one side, and guitar players at open mic
              >> nights on the other side. But in the middle is the internet.
              >>
              >>
              > But the Internet is physical (electrons, silicon, copper, glass fiber,
              > etc) ideas are not. That's the "exists" I was referring to. The
              > statement that "[...] (the world of ideas) is increasingly
              > indistinguishable from the world of things." seems ridiculous. Ideas
              > actually are distinguishable from things. Sure, ideas can affect
              > people and change their behavior and mass digital media has increased
              > that rate of change, so it's extremely important. But saying they are
              > indistinguishable sounds like intellectual puffery.
              >
              More to play devil's advocate on a Sunday morning, than anything else...

              Are ideas indistinguishable from things, or vice versa?

              Ideas are often stored/represented as states of matter, or systems
              behavior. Consider:

              - the difference between two books: they may weigh the same, but what's
              printed on the pages makes all the difference, or,

              - a computer running a specific program behaves very differently than
              one running a different program, or one that's halted (and that can
              effect very physical things like energy used by that machine, or,

              - the physical states of our bodies are very much interdependent with
              what we are thinking, the activities of our autonomic nervous systems,
              and the state of various chemicals (natural and otherwise) in our
              bloodstreams.

              Is an endorphin "high" an idea or a physical state or both? What about
              being agitated?

              And then you can always look toward basic physics: energy and matter are
              interchangeable, as are energy and information content (entropy).


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            • cjenscook
              Hi Scott Although I m based in Linlithgow, Scotland (birthplace of Mary, Queen of Scots) I m not Scottish myself, just a mongrel. ... family, angel, or venture
              Message 6 of 28 , Nov 11, 2007
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                Hi Scott

                Although I'm based in Linlithgow, Scotland (birthplace of Mary, Queen
                of Scots) I'm not Scottish myself, just a mongrel.

                --- In decentralization@yahoogroups.com, "Scott Feamster" <sf@...>
                wrote:
                >
                > What Chris describes is equity capital that we call friends and
                family, angel, or venture capital investment in the U.S. Equity will
                continue to provide the costliest investment dollars; debt will
                continue to provide the cheapest investment dollars.
                >

                The "who" is immaterial.

                It's the "how" of this new form of Equity that is entirely novel
                (although, as I said, Canadian "Income Trusts" come close).

                This is not "Equity" as in a Limited Company, and is a lot less
                risky, albeit the returns MAY be less than those from Equity in a
                Corporation, so are the risks.

                Investors receive a proportional share of the revenues from the
                property financed (whether Real property or IP) BEFORE the
                management gets its hands on them.

                If there are any revenues, of course.

                In other words, in this model Labour works WITH Capital not FOR it,
                and you don't get the "Principal/Agent" problem which
                all "Corporations" have, and which is why there is a huge body of
                Company law, and that famous oxymoron, "Corporate Social
                Responsibility".

                This "Open" form of Capital is an entirely new and simple
                (unlike "mezzanine", convertibles, warrants etc etc) middle ground
                between conventional "Debt" and "Equity", and in my experience comes
                in a lot less expensive than conventional "Equity", but more
                expensive than "Debt" wwith potential of a much greater return.

                There cannot be a default, because it is not a "cost" or
                an "overhead", but rather a "pre-distribution".

                This is something entirely new, and it does take a bit of getting
                your head around, for sure.

                Best Regards

                Chris
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