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WiFi

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  • Julian Bond
    In article , Todd Boyle writes ... The WiFi world is getting more and more
    Message 1 of 6 , May 2 7:57 AM
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      In article <5.1.0.14.0.20020429102605.03c93ac0@...>,
      Todd Boyle <tboyle@...> writes
      >As WiFi community networks proliferate there will be massive
      >speeds around the edges of the internet. Imagine what could be
      >done with this resource if it were actually harmonized with telco
      >and cableco services.

      The WiFi world is getting more and more interesting. Here in the UK
      we're about to head into another spectrum license auction for the
      3.4Gghz band. I know of two ventures planning on delivering broadband
      via relatively high power 3.4Ghz point to point links to a community
      access point which then delivers to the household via 2.4Ghz WiFi.

      We're also about to de-regulate useage and allow for-profit WAPs. BT in
      particular wants to jump on this and become the Joltage-Boingo of the
      UK.

      From the Telco and CableCo's point of view, they should be putting up
      WAPs to serve communities because it reduces their connection costs to
      individual households to zero. This would be perfect for gated
      communities!

      I've also heard it said that since a major part of their costs are CRM
      and support, they should be positively encouraging bandwidth sharing
      because it offloads more of their support onto the community and end-
      users, but I don't completely buy that one.

      --
      Julian Bond email: julian_bond@...
      CV/Resume: http://www.voidstar.com/cv/
      WebLog: http://www.voidstar.com/
      M: +44 (0)77 5907 2173 T: +44 (0)192 0412 433
      ICQ:33679568 tag:So many words, so little time
    • Wes Felter
      ... I m a little skeptical about this. What equipment would customers use? (If you say PCMCIA cards, do they have enough antenna gain?) What are the support
      Message 2 of 6 , May 2 9:52 AM
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        On Thu, 2002-05-02 at 09:57, Julian Bond wrote:
        > From the Telco and CableCo's point of view, they should be putting up
        > WAPs to serve communities because it reduces their connection costs to
        > individual households to zero. This would be perfect for gated
        > communities!

        I'm a little skeptical about this. What equipment would customers use?
        (If you say PCMCIA cards, do they have enough antenna gain?) What are
        the support issues? How do you address security? The easy security
        solutions are weak and the good solutions are complex.

        I'm much more optimistic about 802.16 than 802.11 for wireless last
        mile.

        Wes Felter - wesley@... - http://felter.org/wesley/
      • Todd Boyle
        ... Bob Syputa is a regular contributor on SeattleWireless list. He writes a lot about 802.16 http://seattlewireless.net/archive/ezmlm.cgi?aas:7523:200204#b He
        Message 3 of 6 , May 2 12:53 PM
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          At 09:52 AM 5/2/02, Wes Felter wrote:
          >On Thu, 2002-05-02 at 09:57, Julian Bond wrote:
          > > Telco and CableCo's ...should be putting up WAPs ...
          >
          >I'm a little skeptical about this. What equipment would customers use?
          >(If you say PCMCIA cards, do they have enough antenna gain?) What are
          >the support issues? How do you address security? The easy security
          >solutions are weak and the good solutions are complex.
          >
          >I'm much more optimistic about 802.16 than 802.11 for wireless last
          >mile.

          Bob Syputa is a regular contributor on SeattleWireless list. He
          writes a lot about 802.16
          http://seattlewireless.net/archive/ezmlm.cgi?aas:7523:200204#b
          He recommend the community wireless groups wait for
          802.16 next year.
          http://seattlewireless.net/archive/ezmlm.cgi?mss:7716:200204:bpekapdjiapckagakddc

          There is a LOT to worry about in the 802.16 standards. They seem
          overwhelmingly geared to commercial service providers (top-down
          hierarchy) Like, where the H*LL is the peer to peer mesh, in this????

          http://www.cedmagazine.com/ced/2002/0402/04a.htm#fw

          802.16 MAC overview

          - Supports difficult user environments–high bandwidth on-demand;
          hundreds of users per channel; continuous and bursty traffic; very
          efficient use of spectrum.

          - Protocol-independent core (ATM, IP, Ethernet, etc.)–ATP-based and
          packet-based convergence layers.

          - Balances between stability of contentiousness and efficiency of
          contention-based operation.

          - Flexible QoS offerings–CBR, rt-VBR, BE with granularity within
          classes.

          - Solid privacy and encryption.

          - Many options for vendor innovation and differentiation–e.g.,
          scheduling.

          - Built to support multiple PHYs.

          That being said, 802.11b is apparently not going to be the foundation
          of any wireless cloud. Main reasoin is crappy thruput, here check
          this out, 5/1/02, Chuck Simmons wrote on dev@...
          > It would appear that the most 802.11b interfaces cause large numbers of wait
          > cycles on the PCI bus when reading or writing. I fear a two card node will
          > not have very good throughput from one wireless interface to the other.
          >
          http://lists.linux-wlan.com/pipermail/linux-wlan-devel/2002-April/000987.html
          http://lists.linux-wlan.com/pipermail/linux-wlan-devel/2002-April/000990.html

          What, then, would be the the total thruput of a classic Pentium 166,
          with two 802.11b interfaces, operating as a busy "CX Node" ??
          http://www.seattlewireless.net/index.cgi/CxNode -way under 1 mbps.
          I shudder to think of the BX node, or AX node.

          Another reason is the lack of mesh routing code for geeks to
          load on the nodes. Seattle Wireless is a completely planned,
          static-IP hierarchy. That's fatal, where are you going to find
          that many seriously dedicated geeks per square mile, willing
          to maintain routing tables manually, on top of all the other
          sacrifices? Whre are the devices, with multiple WiFi NICs
          that you can install on the roof?? People are soldering these
          things together. At a time when 802.11b cards are going into
          the sunset. Chitchat is, you shouldn't even buy them now,
          you should wait for 802.11a/b cards anyway.

          Very confusing. And very worrisome------the worry is that right
          now, as we ignore the 802.16 standard and political /vendor
          dialog, we're all being sewed up into a thing IMPOSSIBLE to
          use for Peer to Peer community lans?

          TOdd
        • Wes Felter
          ... 802.16 will be used for commercial wireless last mile; 802.11 will be used for community networks. Nothing to worry about. ... Do the Atheros chipsets use
          Message 4 of 6 , May 2 8:05 PM
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            on 5/2/02 2:53 PM, Todd Boyle at tboyle@... wrote:

            > At 09:52 AM 5/2/02, Wes Felter wrote:
            >> I'm much more optimistic about 802.16 than 802.11 for wireless last
            >> mile.

            > There is a LOT to worry about in the 802.16 standards. They seem
            > overwhelmingly geared to commercial service providers (top-down
            > hierarchy)

            802.16 will be used for commercial wireless last mile; 802.11 will be used
            for community networks. Nothing to worry about.

            > That being said, 802.11b is apparently not going to be the foundation
            > of any wireless cloud. Main reasoin is crappy thruput, here check
            > this out, 5/1/02, Chuck Simmons wrote on dev@...
            >> It would appear that the most 802.11b interfaces cause large numbers of wait
            >> cycles on the PCI bus when reading or writing. I fear a two card node will
            >> not have very good throughput from one wireless interface to the other.
            >>
            > http://lists.linux-wlan.com/pipermail/linux-wlan-devel/2002-April/000987.html
            > http://lists.linux-wlan.com/pipermail/linux-wlan-devel/2002-April/000990.html
            >
            > What, then, would be the the total thruput of a classic Pentium 166,
            > with two 802.11b interfaces, operating as a busy "CX Node" ??
            > http://www.seattlewireless.net/index.cgi/CxNode -way under 1 mbps.
            > I shudder to think of the BX node, or AX node.

            Do the Atheros chipsets use DMA? I guess they have to to approach 100Mbps. I
            don't think hierarchical community networks are going to work anyway. If
            you're using a mesh you only need one radio.

            > Another reason is the lack of mesh routing code for geeks to
            > load on the nodes.

            There's Grid. Is anybody hardcore enough to try it?

            > Very confusing. And very worrisome------the worry is that right
            > now, as we ignore the 802.16 standard and political /vendor
            > dialog, we're all being sewed up into a thing IMPOSSIBLE to
            > use for Peer to Peer community lans?

            802.11 equipment will be sold for years to come; nobody will be "sewn up".

            Wes Felter - wesley@... - http://felter.org/wesley/
          • cefn.hoile@bt.com
            The value of these P2P WiFi commercial opportunities could perhaps be influenced (increased/decreased?) by this emerging technology, also licensed by BTexact.
            Message 5 of 6 , Jul 29, 2002
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              The value of these P2P WiFi commercial opportunities could perhaps be
              influenced (increased/decreased?) by this emerging technology, also licensed
              by BTexact.

              http://www.btexact.com/aboutus/ourheritage?doc=42080

              Cefn
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