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WG, per Sergei Osokin

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  • Lucas Gonze
    Forwarded message from Sergei Osokin, with permission: Hi guys! Just returned from 2-day P2P working group meeting and finally had time to look at the GLUE.
    Message 1 of 29 , Jun 1 11:03 AM
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      Forwarded message from Sergei Osokin, with permission:

      Hi guys!

      Just returned from 2-day P2P working group meeting
      and finally had time to look at the GLUE. Looks really interesting -
      I never thought that it would be possible to squeese WSDL/SOAP
      into 360K jar. In fact, I've met a .NET guy from Microsoft at the
      P2PWG meeting, and he says that their own new device released
      that summer (the phone/PDA combination - code named Stinger
      or something like that) does not have the web service capacity,
      because it was deemed too heavyweight for such a device.

      On the other hand, Greg Bolcer from Endeavors (also met
      him there) says that it is no big deal to do that on the small
      device - they have a demo for iPaq that has essentially the
      same functionality (though it is not exactly SOAP/WSDL, but
      something similar, so it was his estimate).

      [snip]

      The only thing that is bad in GLUE is that it is proprietary
      *and* Java only. Oh well... No one's perfect, I guess. They gotta
      have some business model, after all... :-)

      One other interesting bit of trivia from that conference -
      I did suspect that M$ and Sun do not talk to each other, but
      when I asked this Microsoft guy about his opinion on JXTA, it
      turned out that they are officially forbidden to even *discuss*
      Sun. Says this is due to the ongoing litigation, and that he knows
      a guy who got into some serious trouble after making some
      negative remarks about Sun *inside* Microsoft. Man... Is it
      a crazy world or what?...

      Another bit of trivia - turns out that Sun has explictilty
      stated his lack of interest in P2P working group. Bob Knighten
      from Intel (who essentially is one of the P2P leaders says that
      he talked to Li Gong, and Li told him that JXTA does not
      really care. Well... confirms my original assumption that the
      world is crazy.

      Finally, P2PWG has lowered the fees from $5,000 to
      $500 - it is called an associate membership or something
      like this now. The idea is to increase the participation. They
      also scheduled the next meeting to be at the same place
      (DC) just one day before O'Reilly's P2P conference. Maybe
      I should join P2PWG after all - my main objections were
      basically financial...

      Best wishes -
      Oso.
      1 Jun 2001.
    • Wesley Felter
      ... What is GLUE? Anybody got a URL? ... The IETF never asked me for $500. :-) Wesley Felter - wesley@felter.org - http://felter.org/wesley/
      Message 2 of 29 , Jun 1 2:14 PM
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        On Fri, 1 Jun 2001, Lucas Gonze wrote:

        > Just returned from 2-day P2P working group meeting
        > and finally had time to look at the GLUE. Looks really interesting -
        > I never thought that it would be possible to squeese WSDL/SOAP
        > into 360K jar. In fact, I've met a .NET guy from Microsoft at the

        What is GLUE? Anybody got a URL?

        > Finally, P2PWG has lowered the fees from $5,000 to
        > $500 - it is called an associate membership or something
        > like this now. The idea is to increase the participation. They

        The IETF never asked me for $500. :-)

        Wesley Felter - wesley@... - http://felter.org/wesley/
      • Justin Chapweske
        ... Actually, I just went to IETF Minneapolis and it the meeting itself cost $500. -- Justin Chapweske, Lead Swarmcast Developer, OpenCola Inc.
        Message 3 of 29 , Jun 1 2:17 PM
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          > The IETF never asked me for $500. :-)

          Actually, I just went to IETF Minneapolis and it the meeting itself cost
          $500.

          --
          Justin Chapweske, Lead Swarmcast Developer, OpenCola Inc.
          http://www.sourceforge.net/projects/swarmcast/
        • Serguei Osokine
          ... http://www.themindelectric.com/products/glue/glue.html Best wishes - Oso.
          Message 4 of 29 , Jun 1 2:28 PM
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            --- In decentralization@y..., Wesley Felter <wesley@f...> wrote:
            > What is GLUE? Anybody got a URL?

            http://www.themindelectric.com/products/glue/glue.html

            Best wishes -
            Oso.
          • coderman
            ... I take it they did not approve the scholarship level memberships with no fee? I thought this was a good idea for those who may have no commercial backing
            Message 5 of 29 , Jun 1 3:02 PM
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              Wesley Felter wrote:
              >
              > > Finally, P2PWG has lowered the fees from $5,000 to
              > > $500 - it is called an associate membership or something
              > > like this now. The idea is to increase the participation. They
              >
              > The IETF never asked me for $500. :-)
              >


              I take it they did not approve the scholarship level memberships with no fee? I thought
              this was a good idea for those who may have no commercial backing (graduate students?
              open source developers?) to justify membership fees.

              Oh well...
            • Serguei Osokine
              ... That would be a premature assumption - I m not a member, so I was not present when they voted. I just had a quick peek at the stuff they were going to vote
              Message 6 of 29 , Jun 1 4:06 PM
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                --- In decentralization@y..., coderman <coderman@m...> wrote:
                > I take it they did not approve the scholarship level
                > memberships with no fee?

                That would be a premature assumption - I'm not a member, so
                I was not present when they voted. I just had a quick peek at
                the stuff they were going to vote on, and the scholarships were
                not something that I was really interested in. But I did hear
                a word 'scholarship' mentioned in conversations, so for all I
                know, the scholarships might be there.

                Best wishes -
                Oso.
              • Zane Thomas
                Coderman, ... Open source developers? Do open source developers get a free ride? If so I m going to release all of my code, go down to the car lot, pick up a
                Message 7 of 29 , Jun 1 4:16 PM
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                  Coderman,

                  > open source developers?

                  Open source developers? Do open source developers get a free ride? If so
                  I'm going to release all of my code, go down to the car lot, pick up a new
                  car, and get some groceries for free on the way home. I'm a true artiste,
                  so I probably shouldn't have to pay for my satellite link either.

                  Zane
                • Lucas Gonze
                  Question: what was the formal action at the WG, aside from schmoozing?
                  Message 8 of 29 , Jun 1 4:26 PM
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                    Question: what was the formal action at the WG, aside from schmoozing?
                  • Zane Thomas
                    Tony, ... Sounds simply communistic, where do I sign up? I haven t had a new car in years despite having worked to the best of my ability to provide code in
                    Message 9 of 29 , Jun 1 4:28 PM
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                      Tony,

                      > Open source developers pay their way with code, in the public
                      > interest.

                      Sounds simply communistic, where do I sign up? I haven't had a new car in
                      years despite having worked to the best of my ability to provide code in the
                      public interest. I think I like the open source model. I pursue whatever I
                      think is in the public's interest, and then help myself to whatever I need.
                      Sounds great - although I doubt that it will work out in the long run.

                      Zane
                    • Tony Kimball
                      ... Open source developers pay their way with code, in the public interest. Any organization that discounts the public interest in the exclusive favor of its
                      Message 10 of 29 , Jun 1 4:30 PM
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                        Quoth Zane Thomas on Friday, 1 June:
                        :
                        : Open source developers? Do open source developers get a free ride?


                        Open source developers pay their way with code, in the public
                        interest. Any organization that discounts the public interest
                        in the exclusive favor of its private interest is malign to the
                        public interest, and deserving of oppobrium. P2PWG would more
                        than get it's (trifling and indirect) money's worth out of
                        admitting OSS dev's, in public relations.
                      • coderman
                        Ah, that is better news. Unfortunately mail to the working group is getting returned (user unknown?) so it seems we will have to wait and see when they update
                        Message 11 of 29 , Jun 1 4:31 PM
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                          Ah, that is better news. Unfortunately mail to the working group is getting returned
                          (user unknown?) so it seems we will have to wait and see when they update the site (or fix
                          their email server).

                          Best regards...


                          Serguei Osokine wrote:
                          >
                          > --- In decentralization@y..., coderman <coderman@m...> wrote:
                          > > I take it they did not approve the scholarship level
                          > > memberships with no fee?
                          >
                          > That would be a premature assumption - I'm not a member, so
                          > I was not present when they voted. I just had a quick peek at
                          > the stuff they were going to vote on, and the scholarships were
                          > not something that I was really interested in. But I did hear
                          > a word 'scholarship' mentioned in conversations, so for all I
                          > know, the scholarships might be there.
                          >
                          > Best wishes -
                          > Oso.
                          >
                          > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                          > decentralization-unsubscribe@egroups.com
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                        • Zane Thomas
                          Coderman, ... source developers ... pretty small cost ... Having started, with a partner, a small business which now bears the burden of trying to make sure
                          Message 12 of 29 , Jun 1 4:47 PM
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                            Coderman,

                            > This is not what I meant to imply. Its just the fact that many open
                            source developers
                            > lack any kind of backing to justify $500 for a membership. ($500 is a
                            pretty small cost
                            > for a company with employess and advertising budgets)

                            Having started, with a partner, a small business which now bears the burden
                            of trying to make sure that a number of other people can pay their rent I'd
                            like to take issue with that statement. $500 is $500 - if a conference
                            costs money to run (it does), and if some people get in for free, then
                            everyone else is pickup up the tab.

                            > I dont have a problem with this, and I can understand (the working group
                            has to pay the
                            > bills) but it also exlcudes some people who would be a valuable addition
                            to the group.

                            I don't have any problem with the idea of inviting people on the basis of
                            merit, but I don't see that providing open source is a useful discriminating
                            feature upon which to base merit.


                            > I did not intend to say that open source developers should get compensated
                            for their
                            > efforts with free everything.

                            I know. I should probably just go back to lurking now. This is a really
                            great mailing list and I don't mean to drag it down into the ideological
                            mud. :-)

                            Zane
                          • coderman
                            Hi Zane, This is not what I meant to imply. Its just the fact that many open source developers lack any kind of backing to justify $500 for a membership.
                            Message 13 of 29 , Jun 1 4:51 PM
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                              Hi Zane,

                              This is not what I meant to imply. Its just the fact that many open source developers
                              lack any kind of backing to justify $500 for a membership. ($500 is a pretty small cost
                              for a company with employess and advertising budgets)

                              I dont have a problem with this, and I can understand (the working group has to pay the
                              bills) but it also exlcudes some people who would be a valuable addition to the group.

                              I did not intend to say that open source developers should get compensated for their
                              efforts with free everything.


                              Zane Thomas wrote:
                              >
                              > Coderman,
                              >
                              > > open source developers?
                              >
                              > Open source developers? Do open source developers get a free ride? If so
                              > I'm going to release all of my code, go down to the car lot, pick up a new
                              > car, and get some groceries for free on the way home. I'm a true artiste,
                              > so I probably shouldn't have to pay for my satellite link either.
                              >
                              > Zane
                              >
                            • Serguei Osokine
                              ... Actually when I was talking to P2PWG people there, I argued that there s no concievable purpose in limiting the access to such resources at all. Since the
                              Message 14 of 29 , Jun 1 5:10 PM
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                                --- In decentralization@y..., coderman <coderman@m...> wrote:
                                > It would also be very reasonable to limit scholarship based
                                > memberships to working group resources which do not have a
                                > significant price associated with them (like free conference
                                > attendance, etc).

                                Actually when I was talking to P2PWG people there, I argued
                                that there's no concievable purpose in limiting the access to
                                such resources at all. Since the WG is obviously interested in
                                receiving the widest possible range of feedback, things like
                                mailing lists and discussions should be available for everyone
                                who has something to say, whether he's a member or not.

                                The individual reaction to that suggestion was generally
                                positive - the whole WG viewpoint might be different, of
                                course :-)

                                Best wishes -
                                Oso.
                              • coderman
                                ... Very true, and this was a generalization with a number of exceptions out there (like yours). ... Good point. I had actually assumed that any scholariship
                                Message 15 of 29 , Jun 1 5:16 PM
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                                  Zane Thomas wrote:
                                  >
                                  > Having started, with a partner, a small business which now bears the burden
                                  > of trying to make sure that a number of other people can pay their rent I'd
                                  > like to take issue with that statement. $500 is $500 - if a conference
                                  > costs money to run (it does), and if some people get in for free, then
                                  > everyone else is pickup up the tab.


                                  Very true, and this was a generalization with a number of exceptions out there (like
                                  yours).


                                  > > I dont have a problem with this, and I can understand (the working group
                                  > has to pay the
                                  > > bills) but it also exlcudes some people who would be a valuable addition
                                  > to the group.
                                  >
                                  > I don't have any problem with the idea of inviting people on the basis of
                                  > merit, but I don't see that providing open source is a useful discriminating
                                  > feature upon which to base merit.
                                  >


                                  Good point. I had actually assumed that any scholariship based memberships would be voted
                                  on or approved by group members. Using 'open source' as a full pass without any scrutiny
                                  would be a *BAD* idea, no contest.

                                  I was under the impression that this was how such memberships would actually be granted,
                                  perhaps all of this will be cleared up soon.

                                  It would also be very reasonable to limit scholarship based memberships to working group
                                  resources which do not have a significant price associated with them (like free conference
                                  attendance, etc).

                                  The main reason I am interested in this type of membership is solely for access to the
                                  technical discussions and resources within the working group which are off limits to non
                                  members. Access to conferences is really not apealing to me at all.

                                  Best regards...
                                • Lucas Gonze
                                  Like biotech and aerospace, the software industry depends on coordinating efforts between non-profit and for-profit entities. The IETF is a place where
                                  Message 16 of 29 , Jun 1 7:10 PM
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                                    Like biotech and aerospace, the software industry depends on coordinating
                                    efforts between non-profit and for-profit entities. The IETF is a place where
                                    coordinated work happens.

                                    Much useful and relevant work is done by people with limited incomes, for
                                    example graduate students, and the IETF as a whole profits quite a lot by having
                                    these types around. At the same time, there are lavishly funded entities
                                    involved, and these are also useful to the IETF as a whole. Variable membership
                                    fees are a way to bring both types in.

                                    The well funded types are able to make an agreement to subsidize worthy others,
                                    because they have other forums with money qualifiers. There's no altruism
                                    involved.

                                    Now the W3C, that's another story. It strikes me as much more entangled with
                                    corporate interests.

                                    - Lucas
                                  • Bram Cohen
                                    Why I would ever pay someone else good money for the priveledge of giving them access to my technical expertise has never been clear to me. -Bram Cohen
                                    Message 17 of 29 , Jun 1 9:26 PM
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                                      Why I would ever pay someone else good money for the priveledge of giving
                                      them access to my technical expertise has never been clear to me.

                                      -Bram Cohen

                                      "Markets can remain irrational longer than you can remain solvent"
                                      -- John Maynard Keynes
                                    • Dave Winer
                                      Yeah, so much for open source being a superior business model. ;- Dave ... From: Zane Thomas To: Sent:
                                      Message 18 of 29 , Jun 2 6:43 AM
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                                        Yeah, so much for open source being a superior business model. ;->

                                        Dave


                                        ----- Original Message -----
                                        From: "Zane Thomas" <zane@...>
                                        To: <decentralization@yahoogroups.com>
                                        Sent: Friday, June 01, 2001 4:16 PM
                                        Subject: Re: [decentralization] WG, per Sergei Osokin


                                        > Coderman,
                                        >
                                        > > open source developers?
                                        >
                                        > Open source developers? Do open source developers get a free ride? If so
                                        > I'm going to release all of my code, go down to the car lot, pick up a new
                                        > car, and get some groceries for free on the way home. I'm a true artiste,
                                        > so I probably shouldn't have to pay for my satellite link either.
                                        >
                                        > Zane
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                                        > decentralization-unsubscribe@egroups.com
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                                        >
                                        >
                                      • Saman Faraz
                                        think of it as a toll highway on the way to market-- a tax on the conduit between supply and demand... Saman
                                        Message 19 of 29 , Jun 2 8:38 AM
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                                          think of it as a toll highway on the way to market-- a tax on the conduit
                                          between supply and demand...
                                          Saman

                                          on 6/2/01 12:26 AM, Bram Cohen at BRAM@... wrote:

                                          > Why I would ever pay someone else good money for the priveledge of giving
                                          > them access to my technical expertise has never been clear to me.
                                          >
                                          > -Bram Cohen
                                          >
                                          > "Markets can remain irrational longer than you can remain solvent"
                                          > -- John Maynard Keynes
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                                          > decentralization-unsubscribe@egroups.com
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                                          >
                                          >
                                        • Chris Hanson
                                          ... Except, of course, the IETF doesn t actually charge membership fees. It charges conference fees if you actually attend a meeting so as to defray costs.
                                          Message 20 of 29 , Jun 2 12:19 PM
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                                            At 10:10 PM -0400 6/1/01, Lucas Gonze wrote:
                                            >Variable membership
                                            >fees are a way to bring both types in.

                                            Except, of course, the IETF doesn't actually charge membership fees.
                                            It charges conference fees if you actually attend a meeting so as to
                                            defray costs. Anyone can be a "member" of the IETF by joining
                                            working group mailing lists and participating -- that's all it takes.

                                            Its fully open "membership" and the fact that it only recognizes
                                            individuals (not companies or organizations) are why the IETF is by
                                            far the most relevant and most effective standards body today.

                                            -- Chris

                                            --
                                            Chris Hanson <cmh@...>
                                            bDistributed.com: Making Business Distributed
                                          • Chris Hanson
                                            ... And that s why nothing binding happens at the meetings, it all happens on the working group mailing lists. -- Chris -- Chris Hanson
                                            Message 21 of 29 , Jun 2 12:19 PM
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                                              At 4:17 PM -0500 6/1/01, Justin Chapweske wrote:
                                              > > The IETF never asked me for $500. :-)
                                              >
                                              >Actually, I just went to IETF Minneapolis and it the meeting itself cost
                                              >$500.

                                              And that's why nothing binding happens at the meetings, it all
                                              happens on the working group mailing lists.

                                              -- Chris

                                              --
                                              Chris Hanson <cmh@...>
                                              bDistributed.com: Making Business Distributed
                                            • Todd Boyle
                                              Zane Thomas said ... What nonsense. Zane -- your accomplishments are far beyond mine and I sincerely respect what you ve done.
                                              Message 22 of 29 , Jun 2 2:53 PM
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                                                Zane Thomas said
                                                >
                                                > Tony,
                                                >
                                                > > Open source developers pay their way with code, in the public
                                                > > interest.
                                                >
                                                > Sounds simply communistic, where do I sign up? I haven't had a
                                                > new car in years ..

                                                What nonsense.

                                                Zane -- your accomplishments are far beyond mine and I sincerely
                                                respect what you've done.
                                                http://www.mvps.org/vb/index2.html?vb4ht/authors.htm

                                                I often considered buying mabry products to include in my VB programs.
                                                Now, this is America and we're all entitled to opinions. I would submit,
                                                the "accomplishments" of the aftermarket community selling COM objects
                                                are really a sort of collaboration with the Microsoft monopoly itself.
                                                I.e., a commercial accomplishment that systematically captured all of
                                                the desktop automation market to the Windows operating system. Everything
                                                I need from a computer is available in linux. We would be a lot better
                                                off if all software was motivated by user needs rather than mega corps.
                                                systematically capturing and patenting every strategic bottleneck to
                                                collect rents.

                                                I wish Microsoft would just go away. The IP protections of software
                                                are crazy. They are dysfunctional. Society should just change them.
                                                We are all a victim of these crazy laws.

                                                > ... I should probably just go back to lurking now. This is a
                                                > really great mailing list and I don't mean to drag it down into the
                                                > ideological mud. :-)

                                                OK I will too.

                                                TOdd
                                              • Zane Thomas
                                                Todd, ... Uh oh, them s fightin werds. :-) ... Not really, I m humbled by the quality of the discussion here. My efforts have been more mundane, trying to
                                                Message 23 of 29 , Jun 2 3:04 PM
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                                                  Todd,

                                                  > > Sounds simply communistic, where do I sign up? I haven't had a
                                                  > > new car in years ..
                                                  >
                                                  > What nonsense.

                                                  Uh oh, them's fightin werds. :-)

                                                  > Zane -- your accomplishments are far beyond mine and I sincerely
                                                  > respect what you've done.

                                                  Not really, I'm humbled by the quality of the discussion here. My efforts
                                                  have been more mundane, trying to support a family and partners while
                                                  finding time to explore ideas which may not contribute to that effort.

                                                  > Now, this is America and we're all entitled to opinions. I would submit,
                                                  > the "accomplishments" of the aftermarket community selling COM objects
                                                  > are really a sort of collaboration with the Microsoft monopoly itself.

                                                  I completely agree with that assessment, and I've been happy to do my part.
                                                  One thing that seems to be overlooked in all the hyperbole about The Evil
                                                  Empire is that MS is not the only party who has benefited by creating an
                                                  environment within which tens of thousands of small businesses such as mine
                                                  could flourish. This has allowed me to create a situation where I work for
                                                  myself, with partners of my own choosing, writing whatever code I enjoy
                                                  writing for which there is a market. And I don't see marketting concerns as
                                                  a bad thing. On the contrary, when people buy my code it confirms that I
                                                  was correct in assessing their needs. I fail to see where the feedback
                                                  mechanism is in the free software cooperative - unless of course I can go
                                                  pick up a free car for my efforts.

                                                  Since there are apparently a some anti-ms people assembled here I'd like to
                                                  know what y'all propose as a viable alternative for someone such as myself.
                                                  I will continue to avoid working for any other corporation as long as
                                                  possible - I'm an independant by nature and nurture and as such I need to
                                                  find niches I can work in which will support me, my family,and my friends.

                                                  > Everything I need from a computer is available in linux.

                                                  And I'm happy with Windows, it's a wonderful world when there are choices
                                                  eh? :-) I really hope MS will put .net on linux soon, I'm looking forward
                                                  to an even larger market.


                                                  > We would be a lot better
                                                  > off if all software was motivated by user needs rather than mega corps.
                                                  > systematically capturing and patenting every strategic bottleneck to
                                                  > collect rents.

                                                  Patenting is a seperate issue. My opinion on that is the PTO is so far out
                                                  of touch with reality that it is doing serious harm to the evolution of
                                                  technology.

                                                  > I wish Microsoft would just go away. The IP protections of software
                                                  > are crazy. They are dysfunctional. Society should just change them.
                                                  > We are all a victim of these crazy laws.

                                                  Which crazy laws? The ones which say that if I create a component and sell
                                                  it that you don't have the right to sell it too? I fail to see what's crazy
                                                  about that aspect if IP.

                                                  > > ... I should probably just go back to lurking now. This is a
                                                  > > really great mailing list and I don't mean to drag it down into the
                                                  > > ideological mud. :-)
                                                  >
                                                  > OK I will too.

                                                  Too late.

                                                  Zane
                                                • Zane Thomas
                                                  Coderman, Caught me in a chatty mood, sorry. :-) ... over ... companies. The distribution of power in a system where large corporations can evolve is an issue
                                                  Message 24 of 29 , Jun 2 5:00 PM
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                                                    Coderman,

                                                    Caught me in a chatty mood, sorry. :-)

                                                    > My grief with M$ is their business practices. This has all been hashed
                                                    over
                                                    > repeatedly by a number of people, but it comes down to the fact that they
                                                    > are a monoply which has abused its power to the detriment of other
                                                    companies.

                                                    The distribution of power in a system where large corporations can evolve is
                                                    an issue which attracted me to this mailing list. I'm kind of enamored with
                                                    the idea of wrestling the control of information away from centralized
                                                    servers and sources.

                                                    But when it comes to assessing the reality of the current situation I don't
                                                    see that MS has played a different game than their competitors. And my
                                                    opinion of those who have gone whining to the government in an attempt to
                                                    replace competitive forces with government intervention is that they are
                                                    pathetic and in the long run will do more harm than good.

                                                    > Open source is not about getting paid, but about doing
                                                    > what you enjoy and contributing to an effort that benifits all involved.

                                                    I wonder about that as a general approach to providing software which
                                                    "benefits all involved". In a sense the money I get paid for the software I
                                                    write is a token which represents someone's having perceived a benefit in
                                                    that software. It's the evaluation function which informs me as to whether
                                                    I'm really doing something other people can use. I don't have a problem
                                                    with designing code because there are interesting problems which can be
                                                    investigated that way, research for its own sake, but it doesn't always pay
                                                    the rent and that's something we all have to do.

                                                    I have worked as a contractor in the past - been there, done that, wrote the
                                                    self-help book. But eventually I came around to the idea that it was a
                                                    waste of time for me to help other people pursue their visions of what
                                                    products would be desired when I could likely come up with some of my own
                                                    which were a) interesting for me to write, and b) paid the rent. So far
                                                    I've been doing ok that way, and hope that work-in-progress (not a
                                                    component, for a change) will continue that tradition.

                                                    Zane
                                                  • Zane Thomas
                                                    Martin, ... or ... is ... Not necessarily, the practices have to be harmfull to be illegal. Wrt to the determination that MS did act illegaly, that s not over
                                                    Message 25 of 29 , Jun 2 5:29 PM
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                                                      Martin,

                                                      > However, and I beleive this is something Microsoft still does not accept
                                                      or
                                                      > understand, they are ILLEGAL when the company performing these practices
                                                      is
                                                      > a monopoly.

                                                      Not necessarily, the practices have to be harmfull to be illegal. Wrt to
                                                      the determination that MS did act illegaly, that's not over yet.
                                                      Interesting book I read a while back: World War 3.0 - Microsoft And Its
                                                      Enemies. Great insight into how badly MS botched the legal (and PR) cases.
                                                      Whether they can recover from those blunders remains to be seen.

                                                      > This is how shareware works for the most part. If you like this program,
                                                      send
                                                      > me $10 to show your appreciation and get a free manual.

                                                      Been there, done that too. :-) That's how we started out in the component
                                                      market, during the early days of VB1. A problem with that model is partly
                                                      one of perception, many companies wouldn't allow their programmers to use
                                                      our components because we were viewed as something less than a real vendor.
                                                      And the subsequent rise in the use of demos as a marketting tool has laregly
                                                      wiped the shareware concept off the map anyway.

                                                      > For me this is the ideal approach. Doing something I find interesing that
                                                      pays
                                                      > rent, and then focusing on my pet projects in the mean time.

                                                      I've got absolutely zero problem with people working at McDonalds to pay the
                                                      rent and then pursuing their passion with whatever time and energy they have
                                                      left. What the heck, it worked for Van Gogh. :-)

                                                      Zane
                                                    • coderman
                                                      ... True, and this is a critical part of antitrust legislation. Everything microsoft has done tactically wise, is completely and fully legal in most
                                                      Message 26 of 29 , Jun 2 5:38 PM
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                                                        Zane Thomas wrote:
                                                        >
                                                        > The distribution of power in a system where large corporations can evolve is
                                                        > an issue which attracted me to this mailing list. I'm kind of enamored with
                                                        > the idea of wrestling the control of information away from centralized
                                                        > servers and sources.
                                                        >
                                                        > But when it comes to assessing the reality of the current situation I don't
                                                        > see that MS has played a different game than their competitors. And my
                                                        > opinion of those who have gone whining to the government in an attempt to
                                                        > replace competitive forces with government intervention is that they are
                                                        > pathetic and in the long run will do more harm than good.


                                                        True, and this is a critical part of antitrust legislation. Everything microsoft
                                                        has done tactically wise, is completely and fully legal in most circumstances.

                                                        Bundling, proprietary extensions, exclusive agreements, etc. They are all common
                                                        practice and legal in most cases.

                                                        However, and I beleive this is something Microsoft still does not accept or
                                                        understand, they are ILLEGAL when the company performing these practices is
                                                        a monopoly. Monopolies themselves are not illegal, and those aggressive
                                                        business practices themselves are not either. But combine the two and you
                                                        run into problems.

                                                        Some of the criticism against microsoft is purely politics, but some of it
                                                        is definately illegal, and was determined as such.

                                                        There was a time when there was no antitrust legislation. I would strongly
                                                        advise a study of that period in history to see why this wasa bad idea.

                                                        I too like very little government involvement in the markets, but there are
                                                        points where it is needed. I think microsofts abuse of their monolopy powers
                                                        are such an instance.



                                                        > I wonder about that as a general approach to providing software which
                                                        > "benefits all involved". In a sense the money I get paid for the software I
                                                        > write is a token which represents someone's having perceived a benefit in
                                                        > that software. It's the evaluation function which informs me as to whether
                                                        > I'm really doing something other people can use. I don't have a problem
                                                        > with designing code because there are interesting problems which can be
                                                        > investigated that way, research for its own sake, but it doesn't always pay
                                                        > the rent and that's something we all have to do.


                                                        This is how shareware works for the most part. If you like this program, send
                                                        me $10 to show your appreciation and get a free manual.

                                                        This has worked for a large amount of code, and many people still do this kind
                                                        of development. Maybe you have something a bit different in mind, but this
                                                        strikes me as pretty similar.


                                                        > I have worked as a contractor in the past - been there, done that, wrote the
                                                        > self-help book. But eventually I came around to the idea that it was a
                                                        > waste of time for me to help other people pursue their visions of what
                                                        > products would be desired when I could likely come up with some of my own
                                                        > which were a) interesting for me to write, and b) paid the rent. So far
                                                        > I've been doing ok that way, and hope that work-in-progress (not a
                                                        > component, for a change) will continue that tradition.
                                                        >

                                                        I wish you luck. I happen to enjoy consulting a bit than you did. I find
                                                        it interesting and enjoyable for the most part. The experience is helpful,
                                                        and the people I meet talented and often end up becoming long term friends.

                                                        For me this is the ideal approach. Doing something I find interesing that pays
                                                        rent, and then focusing on my pet projects in the mean time.

                                                        I suppose no one way is best. It all boils down to your preferences.

                                                        Best regards,
                                                        Martin Peck.
                                                      • chris cook
                                                        quoting Zane ... What we need is a software equivalent of the Wellcome Foundation which fights the good fight in the biotech sphere. You could apply for grants
                                                        Message 27 of 29 , Jun 3 8:01 AM
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                                                          quoting Zane

                                                          >>
                                                          >Since there are apparently a some anti-ms people assembled here I'd like to
                                                          >know what y'all propose as a viable alternative for someone such as myself.
                                                          >I will continue to avoid working for any other corporation as long as
                                                          >possible - I'm an independant by nature and nurture and as such I need to
                                                          >find niches I can work in which will support me, my family,and my friends.

                                                          What we need is a software equivalent of the Wellcome Foundation which
                                                          fights the good fight in the biotech sphere.

                                                          You could apply for grants for your development work, and retain some
                                                          benefit from the use of the intellectual property as well.

                                                          Now you wouldn't get a software firm like MS to endow such a venture. But
                                                          surely the Cisco's of this world would see some benefit.

                                                          Chris Cook

                                                          _________________________________________________________________________
                                                          Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com
                                                        • Lucas Gonze
                                                          Efforts to describe Microsoft as good or evil are wrong headed, which is why the religious war never ends. Any corporation of this size has too many
                                                          Message 28 of 29 , Jun 3 9:30 AM
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                                                            Efforts to describe Microsoft as good or evil are wrong headed, which is why the
                                                            religious war never ends. Any corporation of this size has too many dimensions
                                                            to be characterized that simply. Is it pathetic to resort to government
                                                            intervention via monopoly laws? Hardly. Both Microsoft and their competitors
                                                            are playing the game with everything at their disposal. Pathetic is when either
                                                            one side fails to play conscientiously.

                                                            Sometimes Microsoft uses warm fuzzy tactics, like open protocols. Sometimes
                                                            they use cold hard tactics, like product tying. Either way good strategy
                                                            requires clear sight, as broad as possible an understanding, and focus on the
                                                            goal.

                                                            Go ahead and fight for your own turf using Microsoft as an ally or an enemy.
                                                            They don't mind either way. What makes it an honorable fight is whether you do
                                                            a good job.

                                                            - Lucas
                                                          • Nick Lothian
                                                            ... Hmm... not where I sit, it isn t! (just making the point that obvious assumptions aren t always correct) *S* Nick
                                                            Message 29 of 29 , Jun 3 4:43 PM
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                                                              > Now, this is America

                                                              Hmm... not where I sit, it isn't! (just making the point that "obvious"
                                                              assumptions aren't always correct) *S*

                                                              Nick
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