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It's 10PM, where's my data?

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  • Dave Winer
    Clay Shirky said: The real shame here is that the people working on general purpose file-sharing are on a Peerier Than Thou crusade to make their file system
    Message 1 of 17 , Feb 5, 2001
      Clay Shirky said: "The real shame here is that the people working on general
      purpose file-sharing are on a Peerier Than Thou crusade to make their file
      system so decentralized that average users simply won't adopt them."

      I think file-sharing as the prime P2P app is over-appreciated. Too low
      level.

      What we'll see in the coming years is a steady migration of functionality
      from the cloud to the desktop.Economics dictate this. You can't get the
      public stock market to buy huge server farms anymore.

      I'm interested in operating services where the users control their own
      content, and the cloud does coordination and acts as a backstop if you start
      getting more traffic on your desktop than you want to support.

      For a fee. The key is charging for services. Eventually every former-egroups
      list is going to have to have this discussion if we want to have any say in
      what happens to our data (archives). I've been talking about this with Glenn
      Fleishman, and I think he's going to write about it. I've also been talking
      with John Doerr about this. We're fiddling while Rome is getting ready to
      burn.

      Make hay while the sun shines. Being in position to sell these services is
      going to be a big business. In this chapter the Internet will start having
      real utility far beyond what we've been able to comprehend so far. But it's
      going to be a difficult transition. The users will want to know what they're
      supposed to do when Yahoo fires the next bullet. I'd like to be ready with
      an answer to that question.

      Dave
    • Clay Shirky
      ... I think we differ here about time frames and strategy. I think file sharing is the big deal for two reasons: first, it is the simplest function to smuggle
      Message 2 of 17 , Feb 5, 2001
        > Clay Shirky said: "The real shame here is that the people working on general
        > purpose file-sharing are on a Peerier Than Thou crusade to make their file
        > system so decentralized that average users simply won't adopt them."
        >
        > I think file-sharing as the prime P2P app is over-appreciated. Too low
        > level.

        I think we differ here about time frames and strategy.

        I think file sharing is the big deal for two reasons: first, it is the
        simplest function to smuggle into the enterprise under the noses of
        the IT department, analagous to the emergence of the PC in business
        settings 20 years ago.

        Second is that file sharing is where the easiest pain killer strategy
        is. The current standard technology for file transfer is email
        attachments, and I don't think I need to rehash here what a mess
        gateway limits, MIME-mangling and the seeming in ability of users to
        actually attach files they mean to attach is.

        So yes, the world is going the way you describe it, but I'm betting
        against it getting there on one big leap, and I'm betting for the
        companies that get in first with a simple app and then are able to
        convince people to upgrade to a broader range of services.

        -clay
      • Dave Winer
        Clay I love you, I hope you know that.. ;- But you re full of it. Look around, the apps are already deployed. If you want to route around your company s
        Message 3 of 17 , Feb 5, 2001
          Clay I love you, I hope you know that.. ;->

          But you're full of it.

          Look around, the apps are already deployed.

          If you want to route around your company's policies about websites, just
          start one at Blogger or one of our free hosting sites.

          If you want to be part of a workgroup that spans different companies, start
          an eGroup.

          All that's changing now is that the free lunch is going away, gradually,
          thankfully.

          Dave


          ----- Original Message -----
          From: "Clay Shirky" <clay@...>
          To: <decentralization@yahoogroups.com>
          Sent: Monday, February 05, 2001 8:52 AM
          Subject: Re: [decentralization] It's 10PM, where's my data?


          > > Clay Shirky said: "The real shame here is that the people working on
          general
          > > purpose file-sharing are on a Peerier Than Thou crusade to make their
          file
          > > system so decentralized that average users simply won't adopt them."
          > >
          > > I think file-sharing as the prime P2P app is over-appreciated. Too low
          > > level.
          >
          > I think we differ here about time frames and strategy.
          >
          > I think file sharing is the big deal for two reasons: first, it is the
          > simplest function to smuggle into the enterprise under the noses of
          > the IT department, analagous to the emergence of the PC in business
          > settings 20 years ago.
          >
          > Second is that file sharing is where the easiest pain killer strategy
          > is. The current standard technology for file transfer is email
          > attachments, and I don't think I need to rehash here what a mess
          > gateway limits, MIME-mangling and the seeming in ability of users to
          > actually attach files they mean to attach is.
          >
          > So yes, the world is going the way you describe it, but I'm betting
          > against it getting there on one big leap, and I'm betting for the
          > companies that get in first with a simple app and then are able to
          > convince people to upgrade to a broader range of services.
          >
          > -clay
          >
          >
          > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
          > decentralization-unsubscribe@egroups.com
          >
          >
          >
        • Dave Winer
          ... start one at Blogger or one of our free hosting sites. Or SourceForge. Dave
          Message 4 of 17 , Feb 5, 2001
            > If you want to route around your company's policies about websites, just
            start one at Blogger or one of our free hosting sites.

            Or SourceForge.

            Dave
          • Rahul Dave
            File serving by itself may be boring, but attatch a file serving link to your desktop in your email and voila there seems to be some real use for it. Rahul
            Message 5 of 17 , Feb 5, 2001
              File serving by itself may be boring, but attatch a file serving link to your
              desktop in your email and voila there seems to be some real use for it.
              Rahul

              I got this from you:
              >
              > Clay I love you, I hope you know that.. ;->
              >
              > But you're full of it.
              >
              > Look around, the apps are already deployed.
              >
              > If you want to route around your company's policies about websites, just
              > start one at Blogger or one of our free hosting sites.
              >
              > If you want to be part of a workgroup that spans different companies, start
              > an eGroup.
              >
              > All that's changing now is that the free lunch is going away, gradually,
              > thankfully.
              >
              > Dave
              >
              >
              > ----- Original Message -----
              > From: "Clay Shirky" <clay@...>
              > To: <decentralization@yahoogroups.com>
              > Sent: Monday, February 05, 2001 8:52 AM
              > Subject: Re: [decentralization] It's 10PM, where's my data?
              >
              >
              > > > Clay Shirky said: "The real shame here is that the people working on
              > general
              > > > purpose file-sharing are on a Peerier Than Thou crusade to make their
              > file
              > > > system so decentralized that average users simply won't adopt them."
              > > >
              > > > I think file-sharing as the prime P2P app is over-appreciated. Too low
              > > > level.
              > >
              > > I think we differ here about time frames and strategy.
              > >
              > > I think file sharing is the big deal for two reasons: first, it is the
              > > simplest function to smuggle into the enterprise under the noses of
              > > the IT department, analagous to the emergence of the PC in business
              > > settings 20 years ago.
              > >
              > > Second is that file sharing is where the easiest pain killer strategy
              > > is. The current standard technology for file transfer is email
              > > attachments, and I don't think I need to rehash here what a mess
              > > gateway limits, MIME-mangling and the seeming in ability of users to
              > > actually attach files they mean to attach is.
              > >
              > > So yes, the world is going the way you describe it, but I'm betting
              > > against it getting there on one big leap, and I'm betting for the
              > > companies that get in first with a simple app and then are able to
              > > convince people to upgrade to a broader range of services.
              > >
              > > -clay
              > >
              > >
              > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
              > > decentralization-unsubscribe@egroups.com
              > >
              > >
              > >
              >
              >
              > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
              > decentralization-unsubscribe@egroups.com
              >
              >
              >
            • C Wegrzyn
              But how is this any different than something like mydocsonline.com? They already take advantage of the desktop integration (hey, it s been around for a year or
              Message 6 of 17 , Feb 5, 2001
                But how is this any different than something like mydocsonline.com? They
                already take advantage of the desktop integration (hey, it's been around for
                a year or more. Heck I even have some Explorer code that does the same
                thing).

                Chuck Wegrzyn


                -----Original Message-----
                From: Rahul Dave [mailto:rahul@...]
                Sent: Monday, February 05, 2001 12:15 PM
                To: decentralization@yahoogroups.com
                Subject: Re: [decentralization] It's 10PM, where's my data?


                File serving by itself may be boring, but attatch a file serving link to
                your
                desktop in your email and voila there seems to be some real use for it.
                Rahul

                I got this from you:
                >
                > Clay I love you, I hope you know that.. ;->
                >
                > But you're full of it.
                >
                > Look around, the apps are already deployed.
                >
                > If you want to route around your company's policies about websites, just
                > start one at Blogger or one of our free hosting sites.
                >
                > If you want to be part of a workgroup that spans different companies,
                start
                > an eGroup.
                >
                > All that's changing now is that the free lunch is going away, gradually,
                > thankfully.
                >
                > Dave
                >
                >
                > ----- Original Message -----
                > From: "Clay Shirky" <clay@...>
                > To: <decentralization@yahoogroups.com>
                > Sent: Monday, February 05, 2001 8:52 AM
                > Subject: Re: [decentralization] It's 10PM, where's my data?
                >
                >
                > > > Clay Shirky said: "The real shame here is that the people working on
                > general
                > > > purpose file-sharing are on a Peerier Than Thou crusade to make their
                > file
                > > > system so decentralized that average users simply won't adopt them."
                > > >
                > > > I think file-sharing as the prime P2P app is over-appreciated. Too low
                > > > level.
                > >
                > > I think we differ here about time frames and strategy.
                > >
                > > I think file sharing is the big deal for two reasons: first, it is the
                > > simplest function to smuggle into the enterprise under the noses of
                > > the IT department, analagous to the emergence of the PC in business
                > > settings 20 years ago.
                > >
                > > Second is that file sharing is where the easiest pain killer strategy
                > > is. The current standard technology for file transfer is email
                > > attachments, and I don't think I need to rehash here what a mess
                > > gateway limits, MIME-mangling and the seeming in ability of users to
                > > actually attach files they mean to attach is.
                > >
                > > So yes, the world is going the way you describe it, but I'm betting
                > > against it getting there on one big leap, and I'm betting for the
                > > companies that get in first with a simple app and then are able to
                > > convince people to upgrade to a broader range of services.
                > >
                > > -clay
                > >
                > >
                > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                > > decentralization-unsubscribe@egroups.com
                > >
                > >
                > >
                >
                >
                > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                > decentralization-unsubscribe@egroups.com
                >
                >
                >


                To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                decentralization-unsubscribe@egroups.com
              • Clay Shirky
                ... And I love you right back, ya big lug... ... See, I don t think so. There s something about the way chat got deployed that suggests to me that the replace
                Message 7 of 17 , Feb 5, 2001
                  > Clay I love you, I hope you know that.. ;->

                  And I love you right back, ya big lug...

                  > But you're full of it.
                  >
                  > Look around, the apps are already deployed.

                  See, I don't think so. There's something about the way chat got
                  deployed that suggests to me that the "replace the client side stuff
                  with server side stuff" is not a perfect solution for lots of
                  enterprise apps.

                  There is still a hurdle, both conceptual and executional, around
                  server-centric file handling. I have created a file I want to share
                  with you, but I also want to keep updating it. What I want is for you
                  to have access to the same file I do. If I am forced to upload a copy
                  to a server, I have not only added an extra step but created instant
                  version control problems.

                  I want you to have access to the file I have on my PC, not to have to
                  create some liminal third space. I want a return to end-to-end
                  connectivity.

                  Chat became the first corporate networking software run on local PCs
                  but never approved by the majority of the corporations whose employees
                  use it.

                  Maybe I am full of it, but I am betting it won't be the last.

                  -clay
                • Dave Winer
                  Dude, we re in TOTAL AGREEMENT on this. I want to decentralize all the centralized services. Every one of them. I want control of the data (screen scraping
                  Message 8 of 17 , Feb 5, 2001
                    Dude, we're in TOTAL AGREEMENT on this.

                    I want to decentralize all the centralized services. Every one of them.

                    I want control of the data (screen scraping doesn't count).

                    I hate that eGroups has all this valuable data, some of which I created, and
                    it's got me worried about its future. Not Yahoo's or eGroups, why should I
                    (have to) care about that. I care about the collection of ideas and
                    discussions we've had on this list and elsewhere.

                    Gettin the data off the centralized servers is my mission. File sharing is
                    fine. Let's do it. But don't forget the other good stuff that we create that
                    we've never seen a file for.

                    Dave


                    ----- Original Message -----
                    From: "Clay Shirky" <clay@...>
                    To: <decentralization@yahoogroups.com>
                    Sent: Monday, February 05, 2001 9:18 AM
                    Subject: Re: [decentralization] It's 10PM, where's my data?


                    > > Clay I love you, I hope you know that.. ;->
                    >
                    > And I love you right back, ya big lug...
                    >
                    > > But you're full of it.
                    > >
                    > > Look around, the apps are already deployed.
                    >
                    > See, I don't think so. There's something about the way chat got
                    > deployed that suggests to me that the "replace the client side stuff
                    > with server side stuff" is not a perfect solution for lots of
                    > enterprise apps.
                    >
                    > There is still a hurdle, both conceptual and executional, around
                    > server-centric file handling. I have created a file I want to share
                    > with you, but I also want to keep updating it. What I want is for you
                    > to have access to the same file I do. If I am forced to upload a copy
                    > to a server, I have not only added an extra step but created instant
                    > version control problems.
                    >
                    > I want you to have access to the file I have on my PC, not to have to
                    > create some liminal third space. I want a return to end-to-end
                    > connectivity.
                    >
                    > Chat became the first corporate networking software run on local PCs
                    > but never approved by the majority of the corporations whose employees
                    > use it.
                    >
                    > Maybe I am full of it, but I am betting it won't be the last.
                    >
                    > -clay
                    >
                    >
                    > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                    > decentralization-unsubscribe@egroups.com
                    >
                    >
                    >
                  • Rahul Dave
                    ... I meant the file would be on my drive rather than at mydocsonline..in this model mydocsonline s role might be as an integrator...now for windows, they seem
                    Message 9 of 17 , Feb 5, 2001
                      I got this from you:
                      >
                      > But how is this any different than something like mydocsonline.com? They
                      > already take advantage of the desktop integration (hey, it's been around for
                      > a year or more. Heck I even have some Explorer code that does the same
                      > thing).
                      I meant the file would be on my drive rather than at mydocsonline..in this model
                      mydocsonline's role might be as an integrator...now for windows, they seem to make it as
                      a folder so to the user interface is moot where you are, but the storage model isnt.

                      Go one step further and email itself dosent need to be sent, it could be an automatically actuated link on
                      an email or instant message, with all the rich heavy stuff viewable on actuation...
                      Rahul
                      >
                      > Chuck Wegrzyn
                      >
                      >
                      > -----Original Message-----
                      > From: Rahul Dave [mailto:rahul@...]
                      > Sent: Monday, February 05, 2001 12:15 PM
                      > To: decentralization@yahoogroups.com
                      > Subject: Re: [decentralization] It's 10PM, where's my data?
                      >
                      >
                      > File serving by itself may be boring, but attatch a file serving link to
                      > your
                      > desktop in your email and voila there seems to be some real use for it.
                      > Rahul
                      >
                      > I got this from you:
                      > >
                      > > Clay I love you, I hope you know that.. ;->
                      > >
                      > > But you're full of it.
                      > >
                      > > Look around, the apps are already deployed.
                      > >
                      > > If you want to route around your company's policies about websites, just
                      > > start one at Blogger or one of our free hosting sites.
                      > >
                      > > If you want to be part of a workgroup that spans different companies,
                      > start
                      > > an eGroup.
                      > >
                      > > All that's changing now is that the free lunch is going away, gradually,
                      > > thankfully.
                      > >
                      > > Dave
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > ----- Original Message -----
                      > > From: "Clay Shirky" <clay@...>
                      > > To: <decentralization@yahoogroups.com>
                      > > Sent: Monday, February 05, 2001 8:52 AM
                      > > Subject: Re: [decentralization] It's 10PM, where's my data?
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > > > Clay Shirky said: "The real shame here is that the people working on
                      > > general
                      > > > > purpose file-sharing are on a Peerier Than Thou crusade to make their
                      > > file
                      > > > > system so decentralized that average users simply won't adopt them."
                      > > > >
                      > > > > I think file-sharing as the prime P2P app is over-appreciated. Too low
                      > > > > level.
                      > > >
                      > > > I think we differ here about time frames and strategy.
                      > > >
                      > > > I think file sharing is the big deal for two reasons: first, it is the
                      > > > simplest function to smuggle into the enterprise under the noses of
                      > > > the IT department, analagous to the emergence of the PC in business
                      > > > settings 20 years ago.
                      > > >
                      > > > Second is that file sharing is where the easiest pain killer strategy
                      > > > is. The current standard technology for file transfer is email
                      > > > attachments, and I don't think I need to rehash here what a mess
                      > > > gateway limits, MIME-mangling and the seeming in ability of users to
                      > > > actually attach files they mean to attach is.
                      > > >
                      > > > So yes, the world is going the way you describe it, but I'm betting
                      > > > against it getting there on one big leap, and I'm betting for the
                      > > > companies that get in first with a simple app and then are able to
                      > > > convince people to upgrade to a broader range of services.
                      > > >
                      > > > -clay
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                      > > > decentralization-unsubscribe@egroups.com
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                      > > decentralization-unsubscribe@egroups.com
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      >
                      >
                      > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                      > decentralization-unsubscribe@egroups.com
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                      > decentralization-unsubscribe@egroups.com
                      >
                      >
                      >
                    • Wesley M. Felter
                      ... This is why I keep pointing to agoric computing or xenoservers or whatever people are calling it this week. IMO, it s what you want when you need something
                      Message 10 of 17 , Feb 5, 2001
                        On Mon, 5 Feb 2001, Dave Winer wrote:

                        > What we'll see in the coming years is a steady migration of functionality
                        > from the cloud to the desktop.Economics dictate this. You can't get the
                        > public stock market to buy huge server farms anymore.
                        >
                        > I'm interested in operating services where the users control their own
                        > content, and the cloud does coordination and acts as a backstop if you start
                        > getting more traffic on your desktop than you want to support.

                        This is why I keep pointing to agoric computing or xenoservers or whatever
                        people are calling it this week. IMO, it's what you want when you need
                        something in the cloud that's more than a Web hosting account but less
                        than a dedicated server and more flexible than an ASP (too many ASPs look
                        like they're on a lock-in strategy).

                        http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/Research/SRG/netos/xeno/
                        http://www.agorics.com/agoricpapers.html
                        http://home.verio.net/products/hosting/vps/

                        Wesley Felter - wesf@... - http://www.cs.utexas.edu/users/wesf/
                      • Julian Bond
                        In article , Dave Winer writes ... In the bad old days, we d just run a copy of majordomo on a
                        Message 11 of 17 , Feb 5, 2001
                          In article <0b3e01c08f99$8e12d120$33a1dc40@murphy2>, Dave Winer
                          <dave@...> writes
                          >I hate that eGroups has all this valuable data, some of which I created, and
                          >it's got me worried about its future. Not Yahoo's or eGroups, why should I
                          >(have to) care about that. I care about the collection of ideas and
                          >discussions we've had on this list and elsewhere.

                          In the bad old days, we'd just run a copy of majordomo on a server we
                          control and write some perl to auto-archive all the messages. But it was
                          hard work and eGroups did us all a service by taking all the pain out of
                          it. While they were at it, they implemented a load of function that we
                          never quite got round to. All that ease suckered us into giving away
                          control. Right now I'm running 2 mailing lists on majordomo and moderate
                          4 on YahooGroups. I'm seriously thinking about moving the other two over
                          as well.

                          But today I wanted to download the archives from the
                          syndication@yahoogroups list to read at my leisure[1]. AFAIK, they won't
                          let me. On my MD lists, I can just ftp the archives or ask majordomo to
                          send them to me via email. They've got us over a barrel, but they may
                          not even realize it.

                          [1]Dial up from home sucks. I *need* a cable modem...

                          --
                          Julian Bond mail:julian@...
                          workurl:http://www.netmarketseurope.com
                          weblog:http://roguemoon.manilasites.com
                          ICQ:33679668 Tel:+44 (0)20 7420 4363
                          tag:So many words so little time
                        • Clay Shirky
                          ... so here s my thing -- I got the same head rush from that agorics work that everyone else did, but those papers were from the late 80s, and Digital Silk
                          Message 12 of 17 , Feb 5, 2001
                            > http://www.agorics.com/agoricpapers.html

                            so here's my thing -- I got the same head rush from that agorics work
                            that everyone else did, but those papers were from the late 80s, and
                            Digital Silk Road was from the mid-90s. Then there was that work by
                            Xerox creating a market for airconditioning in a building.

                            Then pffft.

                            What happened? Where did all that work go? Did anybody do any
                            post-mortems or followups?

                            -clay
                          • Wesley M. Felter
                            ... I don t know. I guess people didn t care and the researchers moved on to other things. It looks like things are moving again now that the E, EROS, and
                            Message 13 of 17 , Feb 5, 2001
                              On Mon, 5 Feb 2001, Clay Shirky wrote:

                              > > http://www.agorics.com/agoricpapers.html
                              >
                              > so here's my thing -- I got the same head rush from that agorics work
                              > that everyone else did, but those papers were from the late 80s, and
                              > Digital Silk Road was from the mid-90s. Then there was that work by
                              > Xerox creating a market for airconditioning in a building.
                              >
                              > Then pffft.
                              >
                              > What happened? Where did all that work go? Did anybody do any
                              > post-mortems or followups?

                              I don't know. I guess people didn't care and the researchers moved on to
                              other things.

                              It looks like things are moving again now that the E, EROS, and Nemesis
                              groups have sort of joined forces. Maybe people will care this time when
                              they want enforceable SLAs from their ASPs.

                              Wesley Felter - wesf@... - http://www.cs.utexas.edu/users/wesf/
                            • allenjs@hotmail.com
                              ... I think it s still going strong. Wes and Clay probably had already seen Michael Stonebraker s system called Mariposa
                              Message 14 of 17 , Feb 5, 2001
                                > What happened? Where did all that work go? Did anybody do any
                                > post-mortems or followups?
                                >

                                I think it's still going strong. Wes and Clay probably had already
                                seen Michael Stonebraker's system called "Mariposa"
                                (http://mariposa.cs.berkeley.edu:8000/postgres/papers/S2K-94-49.pdf),
                                where he applied the agoric ideas to distributed data retrieval. He
                                eventually stopped releasing public research and is attempting to
                                commercialize this technology at www.cohera.com. (The site aims to
                                please investors, but the technology underneath the product is
                                agoric). Other current application of agoric systems is in the "GRID
                                Forum", which is made up of Microsoft, Sun, VA Linux, Nasa, Ncsa and
                                others -- they are attempting to design a completely distributed
                                computing architecture (www.gridforum.org is the site, and
                                http://www.nas.nasa.gov/~thigpen/accounts-wg/accounts.html has a
                                discussion of how GRID would provide processing power on a market
                                basis).
                              • Jeff Barr
                                A couple of notes: 1. There is nothing stopping you from creating a write-only address somewhere and subscribing that address to groups of interest. 2. List
                                Message 15 of 17 , Feb 5, 2001
                                  A couple of notes:

                                  1. There is nothing stopping you from creating a "write-only"
                                  address somewhere and subscribing that address to groups of
                                  interest.

                                  2. List owners can access the member list of a Yahoo Group
                                  (dare we call it a yGroup?). From members page, simply
                                  click the "Download List" link.

                                  3. A carefully written "wget" [1] command could be used to
                                  pull down an entire yGroup archive for local safekeeping.
                                  Something similar could be done with IE's Offline page
                                  synchronization.

                                  4. Nevertheless, Julian's point still remains. We have traded
                                  ease of use for control. When things go well it is a decent
                                  tradeoff. Its when things go wrong, and we need that control,
                                  that we will regret doing this.

                                  [1] http://www.gnu.org/software/wget/wget.html

                                  Jeff;

                                  -----Original Message-----
                                  From: Julian Bond [mailto:julian@...]
                                  Sent: Monday, February 05, 2001 10:38 AM
                                  To: decentralization@yahoogroups.com
                                  Subject: Re: [decentralization] It's 10PM, where's my data?


                                  In article <0b3e01c08f99$8e12d120$33a1dc40@murphy2>, Dave Winer
                                  <dave@...> writes
                                  >I hate that eGroups has all this valuable data, some of which I created,
                                  and
                                  >it's got me worried about its future. Not Yahoo's or eGroups, why should I
                                  >(have to) care about that. I care about the collection of ideas and
                                  >discussions we've had on this list and elsewhere.

                                  In the bad old days, we'd just run a copy of majordomo on a server we
                                  control and write some perl to auto-archive all the messages. But it was
                                  hard work and eGroups did us all a service by taking all the pain out of
                                  it. While they were at it, they implemented a load of function that we
                                  never quite got round to. All that ease suckered us into giving away
                                  control. Right now I'm running 2 mailing lists on majordomo and moderate
                                  4 on YahooGroups. I'm seriously thinking about moving the other two over
                                  as well.

                                  But today I wanted to download the archives from the
                                  syndication@yahoogroups list to read at my leisure[1]. AFAIK, they won't
                                  let me. On my MD lists, I can just ftp the archives or ask majordomo to
                                  send them to me via email. They've got us over a barrel, but they may
                                  not even realize it.

                                  [1]Dial up from home sucks. I *need* a cable modem...

                                  --
                                  Julian Bond mail:julian@...
                                  workurl:http://www.netmarketseurope.com
                                  weblog:http://roguemoon.manilasites.com
                                  ICQ:33679668 Tel:+44 (0)20 7420 4363
                                  tag:So many words so little time

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                                • Wesley M. Felter
                                  ... GRID and Globus are interesting technically, but everything I ve read (including that page) makes it sound like a club that trades resources within
                                  Message 16 of 17 , Feb 6, 2001
                                    On Tue, 6 Feb 2001 allenjs@... wrote:

                                    > Other current application of agoric systems is in the "GRID
                                    > Forum", which is made up of Microsoft, Sun, VA Linux, Nasa, Ncsa and
                                    > others -- they are attempting to design a completely distributed
                                    > computing architecture (www.gridforum.org is the site, and
                                    > http://www.nas.nasa.gov/~thigpen/accounts-wg/accounts.html has a
                                    > discussion of how GRID would provide processing power on a market
                                    > basis).

                                    GRID and Globus are interesting technically, but everything I've read
                                    (including that page) makes it sound like a "club" that trades resources
                                    within itself but isn't open to the public.

                                    What I have in mind is something more like Ejasent's service, but
                                    extremely fine-grained and open to the public so that it's as easy to sign
                                    up for as a typical Web hosting account. (Actually, it should be easier
                                    than that; you (actually software acting on your behalf) should be able to
                                    sign up using some kind of RPC, no human intervention required.)

                                    I also have to wonder if agoric computing can be made to work on any of
                                    today's commodity operating systems, but maybe that's just my
                                    OS-researcher bias. :-)

                                    Wesley Felter - wesf@... - http://www.cs.utexas.edu/users/wesf/
                                  • Lucas Gonze
                                    ... http://www.agorics.com/agoricpapers.html These three papers by Mark S. Miller and K. Eric Drexler appeared in The Ecology of Computation, Bernardo
                                    Message 17 of 17 , Feb 7, 2001
                                      > What happened? Where did all that work go? Did anybody do any
                                      > post-mortems or followups?

                                      http://www.agorics.com/agoricpapers.html

                                      "These three papers by Mark S. Miller and K. Eric Drexler appeared in The Ecology of
                                      Computation, Bernardo Huberman (ed.) Elsevier Science Publishers/North-Holland, 1988.
                                      "

                                      http://www.parc.xerox.com/istl/groups/iea/papers/gnutella/index.html

                                      "Free Riding on Gnutella
                                      Eytan Adar and Bernardo A. Huberman"
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