Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Open source video streaming app in development

Expand Messages
  • Oliver Willis
    Looking for programmers interested in working on a streaming video application enabling one to many broadcasting online. If interested, please email me at
    Message 1 of 21 , Jan 2, 2001
    • 0 Attachment
      Looking for programmers interested in working on a
      streaming video application enabling one to many
      broadcasting online. If interested, please email me at
      owillis@... or visit www.humancasting.org

      =====
      Oliver Willis
      owillis@...

      __________________________________________________
      Do You Yahoo!?
      Yahoo! Photos - Share your holiday photos online!
      http://photos.yahoo.com/
    • Lucas Gonze
      It seems to me that the Real Audio way of thinking, where there is a pseudo real time stream being broadcast, is horseless carriage thinking. Music radio
      Message 2 of 21 , Jan 3, 2001
      • 0 Attachment
        It seems to me that the Real Audio way of thinking, where there is a pseudo real time
        stream being broadcast, is horseless carriage thinking. Music radio doesn't need to
        be real time; the internet handles real data data badly; the internet handles
        non-real time data like email very well. Radio is inherently a broadcast medium.
        The internet is inherently store-and-forward.

        Imagine this architecture:
        * any non-proprietary streamable audio format.
        * a tuner that schedules downloads to run overnight: Tivo is a better model than TV.
        * if the audio format is not already ubiquitous, an adapter to convert to mp3 for
        local renditions.
        * a p2p data server acting as a repeater. Have it run overnight after (or
        concurrently with) the downloader. Make it able to upload intermediate portions of
        an audio stream.

        What is different here than plain old Napster? Streamable audio formats. Playlists.
        Overnight downloads. Repeat downloads from the same source (pick up the same URL,
        with the same file name, and append it to existing cache data). For cleanliness mark
        the stream at graceful start and stop points like song beginnings and endings.

        None of this is hard to do. Most of it can be done using existing open source
        technology. Funding anyone?

        Trying to convince a horse to drink gas or a car to burn water is pointless.
        Sensible engineering takes advantage of the natural properties of a tool rather than
        fighting them.

        References:
        ===========

        Proxy Caching Mechanism for Multimedia Playback Streams in the Internet
        http://www.ircache.net/Cache/Workshop99/Papers/rejaie-html/

        Proposed Humancasting network architecture
        http://humancasting.manilasites.com/pictures/viewer$8

        - Lucas
      • Lucas Gonze
        Developing this a little further - I don t see why songs themselves have to be streamed. You can stream a playlist using whole songs as chunks. The songs
        Message 3 of 21 , Jan 3, 2001
        • 0 Attachment
          Developing this a little further -

          I don't see why songs themselves have to be streamed. You can stream a playlist
          using whole songs as chunks. The songs don't have to be picked up in the same order
          as the playlist, and once you have downloaded a song you can reuse it in other
          playlists without re-downloading. You can pick up the songs from anybody who has
          them, not necessarily the same node that provided the playlist or the previous song
          in the stream.

          (Cron or any job scheduler) +
          (Napster or any filesharing tool) +
          (OPML or any playlist format) +
          (WinAmp or any mp3 player) +
          (signed playlists to allow for editorial voice) =
          -----------------------------------------------
          a running prototype in two months.

          - Lucas
        • Oliver Willis
          I agree (to a point). As far as music programming, etc goes I would much rather pick and download my own content. The Internet excels at that. What is still
          Message 4 of 21 , Jan 3, 2001
          • 0 Attachment
            I agree (to a point). As far as music programming, etc
            goes I would much rather pick and download my own
            content. The Internet excels at that. What is still
            lacking online IMHO is a medium where a large audience
            can come together in real time, experiencing the same
            thing. This is what television does now, for a very
            select few. I think the web can be an enabling tool
            providing that 5,000+ channel universe we've all heard
            about so much. A broadcast universe where MTV and Joe
            Sixpack have the same potential audience, who they can
            interact with in real time. You do it over the net
            because the network can create interest hubs in real
            time, making it feasible and economical for narrow
            subjects to reach and engage their audience.

            --- Lucas Gonze <lucas@...> wrote:
            > It seems to me that the Real Audio way of thinking,
            > where there is a pseudo real time
            > stream being broadcast, is horseless carriage
            > thinking. Music radio doesn't need to
            > be real time; the internet handles real data data
            > badly; the internet handles
            > non-real time data like email very well. Radio is
            > inherently a broadcast medium.
            > The internet is inherently store-and-forward.
            >
            > Imagine this architecture:
            > * any non-proprietary streamable audio format.
            > * a tuner that schedules downloads to run overnight:
            > Tivo is a better model than TV.
            > * if the audio format is not already ubiquitous, an
            > adapter to convert to mp3 for
            > local renditions.
            > * a p2p data server acting as a repeater. Have it
            > run overnight after (or
            > concurrently with) the downloader. Make it able to
            > upload intermediate portions of
            > an audio stream.
            >
            > What is different here than plain old Napster?
            > Streamable audio formats. Playlists.
            > Overnight downloads. Repeat downloads from the same
            > source (pick up the same URL,
            > with the same file name, and append it to existing
            > cache data). For cleanliness mark
            > the stream at graceful start and stop points like
            > song beginnings and endings.
            >
            > None of this is hard to do. Most of it can be done
            > using existing open source
            > technology. Funding anyone?
            >
            > Trying to convince a horse to drink gas or a car to
            > burn water is pointless.
            > Sensible engineering takes advantage of the natural
            > properties of a tool rather than
            > fighting them.
            >
            > References:
            > ===========
            >
            > Proxy Caching Mechanism for Multimedia Playback
            > Streams in the Internet
            >
            http://www.ircache.net/Cache/Workshop99/Papers/rejaie-html/
            >
            > Proposed Humancasting network architecture
            >
            http://humancasting.manilasites.com/pictures/viewer$8
            >
            > - Lucas
            >
            >
            > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
            > decentralization-unsubscribe@egroups.com
            >
            >
            >


            =====
            Oliver Willis
            owillis@...

            __________________________________________________
            Do You Yahoo!?
            Yahoo! Photos - Share your holiday photos online!
            http://photos.yahoo.com/
          • Dave Winer
            Lucas, I agree. Streaming is unnecessary, inefficient, low fidelity and wasteful of the user s time. BTW, please add RSS to the list of formats that are key to
            Message 5 of 21 , Jan 3, 2001
            • 0 Attachment
              Lucas, I agree. Streaming is unnecessary, inefficient, low fidelity and
              wasteful of the user's time.

              BTW, please add RSS to the list of formats that are key to make big media
              objects move around the net more smoothly.

              Dave


              ----- Original Message -----
              From: "Lucas Gonze" <lucas@...>
              To: <decentralization@egroups.com>
              Sent: Wednesday, January 03, 2001 9:27 AM
              Subject: RE: [decentralization] Open source video streaming app in
              development


              > Developing this a little further -
              >
              > I don't see why songs themselves have to be streamed. You can stream a
              playlist
              > using whole songs as chunks. The songs don't have to be picked up in the
              same order
              > as the playlist, and once you have downloaded a song you can reuse it in
              other
              > playlists without re-downloading. You can pick up the songs from anybody
              who has
              > them, not necessarily the same node that provided the playlist or the
              previous song
              > in the stream.
              >
              > (Cron or any job scheduler) +
              > (Napster or any filesharing tool) +
              > (OPML or any playlist format) +
              > (WinAmp or any mp3 player) +
              > (signed playlists to allow for editorial voice) =
              > -----------------------------------------------
              > a running prototype in two months.
              >
              > - Lucas
              >
              >
              > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
              > decentralization-unsubscribe@egroups.com
              >
              >
              >
            • Lucas Gonze
              Ok, I hope this doesn t come off as hardass, but I think that this is the moment for you to go back to the spec. The desired functionality: 1) a medium where
              Message 6 of 21 , Jan 3, 2001
              • 0 Attachment
                Ok, I hope this doesn't come off as hardass, but I think that this is the moment for
                you to go back to the spec. The desired functionality:

                1) a medium where a large audience can come together
                2) 5K+ channels
                3) give Joe Sixpack the ability to reach the same potential audience as MTV
                4) make it feasible and economical for narrow subjects to reach and engage their
                audience.
                5) the data is audio
                6) the audience comes together in real time

                My argument here, which I will put to you in the same way I would to a client, is
                that #'s 1-5 are within easy reach if you just give up #6. And again as I would say
                it to a client: if you want to do it the expensive way I am happy to cash a bigger
                check.

                This is a problem set that can be fixed in the spec much more easily than in the
                implementation. For example, one possibility is that the data does have to be real
                time but it doesn't have to be audio. If the real time stuff can be text you can use
                chat technology as a complementary channel, maybe in a field in the player. This is
                like when you are watching a movie and breaking news appears as a scrolling line of
                text at the bottom of the screen.

                It may be that this is all or nothing, but you should be absolutely sure because 100%
                is often orders of magnitude harder than 90%.

                - Lucas
              • Todd Boyle
                I admire the notion that broadcast content should generally go through wires and that the radio spectrum now wasted on TV and commercial radio are an economic
                Message 7 of 21 , Jan 3, 2001
                • 0 Attachment
                  I admire the notion that broadcast content should generally
                  go through wires and that the radio spectrum now wasted on
                  TV and commercial radio are an economic waste. In other
                  words they should go thru cable, at least to the last
                  few meters.

                  Nonrealtime content even if two way, might follow this same
                  principle. Anything that has many subscribers.

                  Is this principle right or wrong?

                  Todd
                • Dave Winer
                  Todd, my mentor on this is Adam Curry, who I m cc ing on this response. Most of the discussions in this area overlook an important resource, at least for
                  Message 8 of 21 , Jan 3, 2001
                  • 0 Attachment
                    Todd, my mentor on this is Adam Curry, who I'm cc'ing on this response.

                    Most of the discussions in this area overlook an important resource, at
                    least for people with persistent net connections.

                    Think about the number of bits that could be transferred over your last-mile
                    (the slow link) when you're not using it.

                    Then the trick is to queue up your requests so that they get satisfied
                    before you even know they've been made.

                    Then when you click on a link to listen to a song or watch a news clip or
                    video, the response is instantaneous because it traveled across the wire
                    while you were gone.

                    Adam had to tell me this story a half-dozen times before I figured it out.
                    It's very powerful. Adam thinks that streaming is not the way of the future,
                    and I agree. Streaming is too low-bandwidth and too slow.

                    Dave


                    ----- Original Message -----
                    From: "Todd Boyle" <tboyle@...>
                    To: <decentralization@egroups.com>
                    Sent: Wednesday, January 03, 2001 10:52 AM
                    Subject: [decentralization] One to many broadcast should go thru wires?


                    > I admire the notion that broadcast content should generally
                    > go through wires and that the radio spectrum now wasted on
                    > TV and commercial radio are an economic waste. In other
                    > words they should go thru cable, at least to the last
                    > few meters.
                    >
                    > Nonrealtime content even if two way, might follow this same
                    > principle. Anything that has many subscribers.
                    >
                    > Is this principle right or wrong?
                    >
                    > Todd
                    >
                    >
                    > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                    > decentralization-unsubscribe@egroups.com
                    >
                    >
                    >
                  • Lucas Gonze
                    ... y, y, y, and y. and yup. While we re on the subject of low fidelity, it seems to me that you can have fidelity degrade gracefully by using layered sound
                    Message 9 of 21 , Jan 3, 2001
                    • 0 Attachment
                      > Streaming is unnecessary, inefficient, low fidelity and
                      > wasteful of the user's time.

                      y, y, y, and y. and yup.

                      While we're on the subject of low fidelity, it seems to me that you can have fidelity
                      degrade gracefully by using layered sound files. Download the file at a low sampling
                      rate. If there is still time available download the missing data for the next best
                      sampling rate. Etc.

                      > BTW, please add RSS to the list of formats that are key to make big media
                      > objects move around the net more smoothly.

                      diff output:

                      5c5
                      < (OPML or any playlist format) +
                      ---
                      > (OPML or RSS or any playlist format) +

                      - Lucas
                    • Oliver Willis
                      In a way, this is push all over again - just done smarter. Makes sense. But I think there needs to be some allowance for real-time video + interaction +
                      Message 10 of 21 , Jan 3, 2001
                      • 0 Attachment
                        In a way, this is push all over again - just done
                        smarter. Makes sense.

                        But I think there needs to be some allowance for
                        "real-time" video + interaction + community. What good
                        is a news clip when its hours old? What if I'm
                        watching the stock market and you want to talk to
                        someone on the floor while the market is making its
                        gyrations, while I watch? It won't happen on TV
                        because the spectrum and money isn't there, and
                        downloading it means its too late.

                        --- Dave Winer <dave@...> wrote:
                        > Todd, my mentor on this is Adam Curry, who I'm
                        > cc'ing on this response.
                        >
                        > Most of the discussions in this area overlook an
                        > important resource, at
                        > least for people with persistent net connections.
                        >
                        > Think about the number of bits that could be
                        > transferred over your last-mile
                        > (the slow link) when you're not using it.
                        >
                        > Then the trick is to queue up your requests so that
                        > they get satisfied
                        > before you even know they've been made.
                        >
                        > Then when you click on a link to listen to a song or
                        > watch a news clip or
                        > video, the response is instantaneous because it
                        > traveled across the wire
                        > while you were gone.
                        >
                        > Adam had to tell me this story a half-dozen times
                        > before I figured it out.
                        > It's very powerful. Adam thinks that streaming is
                        > not the way of the future,
                        > and I agree. Streaming is too low-bandwidth and too
                        > slow.
                        >
                        > Dave
                        >
                        >
                        > ----- Original Message -----
                        > From: "Todd Boyle" <tboyle@...>
                        > To: <decentralization@egroups.com>
                        > Sent: Wednesday, January 03, 2001 10:52 AM
                        > Subject: [decentralization] One to many broadcast
                        > should go thru wires?
                        >
                        >
                        > > I admire the notion that broadcast content should
                        > generally
                        > > go through wires and that the radio spectrum now
                        > wasted on
                        > > TV and commercial radio are an economic waste. In
                        > other
                        > > words they should go thru cable, at least to the
                        > last
                        > > few meters.
                        > >
                        > > Nonrealtime content even if two way, might follow
                        > this same
                        > > principle. Anything that has many subscribers.
                        > >
                        > > Is this principle right or wrong?
                        > >
                        > > Todd
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                        > > decentralization-unsubscribe@egroups.com
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        >
                        >
                        > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                        > decentralization-unsubscribe@egroups.com
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > .
                        > om this group, send an email to:
                        > decentralization-unsubscribe@egroups.com
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > .
                        >


                        =====
                        Oliver Willis
                        owillis@...

                        __________________________________________________
                        Do You Yahoo!?
                        Yahoo! Photos - Share your holiday photos online!
                        http://photos.yahoo.com/
                      • Oliver Willis
                        I think we ve got our wavelength mixed up. The idea is that the video/audio goes out to the audience, concurrent with a chat window. #6 is a chat application,
                        Message 11 of 21 , Jan 3, 2001
                        • 0 Attachment
                          I think we've got our wavelength mixed up. The idea is
                          that the video/audio goes out to the audience,
                          concurrent with a chat window. #6 is a chat
                          application, allowing the audience to talk about the
                          video they're seeing and interact with the host, vj,
                          whatever...
                          --- Lucas Gonze <lucas@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > Ok, I hope this doesn't come off as hardass, but I
                          > think that this is the moment for
                          > you to go back to the spec. The desired
                          > functionality:
                          >
                          > 1) a medium where a large audience can come together
                          > 2) 5K+ channels
                          > 3) give Joe Sixpack the ability to reach the same
                          > potential audience as MTV
                          > 4) make it feasible and economical for narrow
                          > subjects to reach and engage their
                          > audience.
                          > 5) the data is audio
                          > 6) the audience comes together in real time
                          >
                          > My argument here, which I will put to you in the
                          > same way I would to a client, is
                          > that #'s 1-5 are within easy reach if you just give
                          > up #6. And again as I would say
                          > it to a client: if you want to do it the expensive
                          > way I am happy to cash a bigger
                          > check.
                          >
                          > This is a problem set that can be fixed in the spec
                          > much more easily than in the
                          > implementation. For example, one possibility is
                          > that the data does have to be real
                          > time but it doesn't have to be audio. If the real
                          > time stuff can be text you can use
                          > chat technology as a complementary channel, maybe in
                          > a field in the player. This is
                          > like when you are watching a movie and breaking news
                          > appears as a scrolling line of
                          > text at the bottom of the screen.
                          >
                          > It may be that this is all or nothing, but you
                          > should be absolutely sure because 100%
                          > is often orders of magnitude harder than 90%.
                          >
                          > - Lucas
                          >
                          >
                          > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                          > decentralization-unsubscribe@egroups.com
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > .
                          > an email to:
                          > decentralization-unsubscribe@egroups.com
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > .
                          >


                          =====
                          Oliver Willis
                          owillis@...

                          __________________________________________________
                          Do You Yahoo!?
                          Yahoo! Photos - Share your holiday photos online!
                          http://photos.yahoo.com/
                        • Clay Shirky
                          ... Not just that. Chat is the human version of SYN/ACK. Chat s advantage is not just low bandwidth, therefore, but tolerance of widely varying latency, so
                          Message 12 of 21 , Jan 3, 2001
                          • 0 Attachment
                            > The trick is that chat can be (kind of) real time because it uses so little
                            > bandwidth.

                            Not just that. Chat is the human version of SYN/ACK. Chat's advantage
                            is not just low bandwidth, therefore, but tolerance of widely varying
                            latency, so long as its beneath a conversational threshold.

                            -clay
                          • Lucas Gonze
                            The trick is that chat can be (kind of) real time because it uses so little bandwidth. Not so for video/audio. Allow the video/audio to be out of band. Have
                            Message 13 of 21 , Jan 3, 2001
                            • 0 Attachment
                              The trick is that chat can be (kind of) real time because it uses so little
                              bandwidth. Not so for video/audio. Allow the video/audio to be out of band. Have a
                              real time chat associated with it. That is a doable project, probably even a
                              commercial one.

                              - Lucas

                              > I think we've got our wavelength mixed up. The idea is
                              > that the video/audio goes out to the audience,
                              > concurrent with a chat window. #6 is a chat
                              > application, allowing the audience to talk about the
                              > video they're seeing and interact with the host, vj,
                              > whatever...
                              > --- Lucas Gonze <lucas@...> wrote:
                              > >
                              > > Ok, I hope this doesn't come off as hardass, but I
                              > > think that this is the moment for
                              > > you to go back to the spec. The desired
                              > > functionality:
                              > >
                              > > 1) a medium where a large audience can come together
                              > > 2) 5K+ channels
                              > > 3) give Joe Sixpack the ability to reach the same
                              > > potential audience as MTV
                              > > 4) make it feasible and economical for narrow
                              > > subjects to reach and engage their
                              > > audience.
                              > > 5) the data is audio
                              > > 6) the audience comes together in real time
                              > >
                              > > My argument here, which I will put to you in the
                              > > same way I would to a client, is
                              > > that #'s 1-5 are within easy reach if you just give
                              > > up #6. And again as I would say
                              > > it to a client: if you want to do it the expensive
                              > > way I am happy to cash a bigger
                              > > check.
                              > >
                              > > This is a problem set that can be fixed in the spec
                              > > much more easily than in the
                              > > implementation. For example, one possibility is
                              > > that the data does have to be real
                              > > time but it doesn't have to be audio. If the real
                              > > time stuff can be text you can use
                              > > chat technology as a complementary channel, maybe in
                              > > a field in the player. This is
                              > > like when you are watching a movie and breaking news
                              > > appears as a scrolling line of
                              > > text at the bottom of the screen.
                              > >
                              > > It may be that this is all or nothing, but you
                              > > should be absolutely sure because 100%
                              > > is often orders of magnitude harder than 90%.
                              > >
                              > > - Lucas
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                              > > decentralization-unsubscribe@egroups.com
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > .
                              > > an email to:
                              > > decentralization-unsubscribe@egroups.com
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > .
                              > >
                              >
                              >
                              > =====
                              > Oliver Willis
                              > owillis@...
                              >
                              > __________________________________________________
                              > Do You Yahoo!?
                              > Yahoo! Photos - Share your holiday photos online!
                              > http://photos.yahoo.com/
                              >
                              > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                              > decentralization-unsubscribe@egroups.com
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                            • Dave Winer
                              ... interaction + community. What good is a news clip when its hours old? Little-known fact: Most of the videos you see on TV news are many hours if not days
                              Message 14 of 21 , Jan 3, 2001
                              • 0 Attachment
                                >>But I think there needs to be some allowance for "real-time" video +
                                interaction + community. What good is a news clip when its hours old?

                                Little-known fact: Most of the videos you see on TV news are many hours if
                                not days old.

                                If we can make 24-hour latency the norm, with really high quality, it's
                                worth doing.

                                When there's a hot story, like the Florida recount, stream it and give up
                                fidelity.

                                It's a pure tradeoff. The aha is that for some if not most video, a few
                                hours makes no difference at all.

                                And yes, it absolutely is Push, but now we have a clue how the human factors
                                work, and the Internet has grown a lot since the first hype. Most important
                                is that Pull has been created. ;->

                                Dave
                              • Todd Boyle
                                Dave Winer said ... I fully agree with the goal of caching whenever it can *possibly* be achieved. e.g. music clips or nonurgent news broadcasts. Who could
                                Message 15 of 21 , Jan 3, 2001
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  Dave Winer said
                                  > Little-known fact: Most of the videos you see on TV news are many hours if
                                  > not days old.
                                  >
                                  > It's a pure tradeoff. The aha is that for some if not most video, a few
                                  > hours makes no difference at all.

                                  I fully agree with the goal of caching whenever it can *possibly*
                                  be achieved. e.g. music clips or nonurgent news broadcasts.

                                  Who could disagree with THAT?

                                  Since there are also times when realtime audio or video
                                  is needed and desired, it will of course be achieved by some
                                  software, regardless of anything we do or say. And those
                                  users *will* clog the pipes if nothing is done about it.

                                  What I would like to see is some economic signals back to the
                                  end user that tell him streaming content costs more, so that
                                  the system can be brought to equilibrium, and provide a more
                                  accurate allocation of what people really want.

                                  If they want to hear ANY music clip immediately regardless of
                                  whether it's in the cache, then, they are going to get it! The
                                  challenge for decentrallization workgroup is to find a way to
                                  provide the same content cheaper faster via cache or edge
                                  routing, etc. And to politically and economically isolate the
                                  streaming pigs so they don't consume the whole commons without
                                  paying for it, one way or another.

                                  IN traffic management this has never been resolved and in Seattle
                                  for instance we've decided for some decades now, to let the
                                  highways fill up with cars and let the delays themselves provide
                                  the message. That is not an optimal way of everybody getting
                                  what they need.

                                  In conclusion I urge developers of decentrallized routing and
                                  communication systems to build in a micro general ledger into
                                  the router so that it can conduct itself like a business. Its
                                  GL rows would charge for resources and also maintain balances,
                                  just as Mojonation does.

                                  Why use a GL structure? Because it interfaces with real business
                                  systems transparently, and, makes every node a general purpose
                                  business transaction platform. This enables the exchange and
                                  aggregation of balance sheet balances such as payables and
                                  receivables, as rows in a table, in a database like PostgresQL.
                                  This uncouples, finally, the decision to settle/pay them from
                                  the choice of a settlement provider. All of today's payment
                                  and settlment schemes are hardwired to a particular bank (duh).

                                  Thus, the byproduct of these little GL structures is to enable
                                  individuals and small businesses to buy, sell, and send and receive
                                  payments over the network outside of banks. I posted a detailed
                                  example of how ledger settlement can work on the tipster list
                                  last week, after meeting with Jeff Kandt,
                                  http://tipster.weblogs.com/discuss

                                  TOdd



                                  Dave Winer said
                                  > >>But I think there needs to be some allowance for "real-time" video +
                                  > interaction + community. What good is a news clip when its hours old?
                                  >
                                  > Little-known fact: Most of the videos you see on TV news are many hours if
                                  > not days old.
                                  >
                                  > If we can make 24-hour latency the norm, with really high quality, it's
                                  > worth doing.
                                  >
                                  > When there's a hot story, like the Florida recount, stream it and give up
                                  > fidelity.
                                  >
                                  > It's a pure tradeoff. The aha is that for some if not most video, a few
                                  > hours makes no difference at all.
                                  >
                                  > Most important is that Pull has been created. ;->

                                  Yes.
                                • Dave Winer
                                  FYI, I m not thinking of caching, not at all. I ll have to write this up, no time now.. Dave
                                  Message 16 of 21 , Jan 3, 2001
                                  • 0 Attachment
                                    FYI, I'm not thinking of caching, not at all.

                                    I'll have to write this up, no time now..

                                    Dave
                                  • Lucas Gonze
                                    ... You bet. Chat is like a duck in water on the internet because of that. And audio streaming on the internet is like a duck in a snowsuit: it s not going
                                    Message 17 of 21 , Jan 3, 2001
                                    • 0 Attachment
                                      clay said:
                                      > Not just that. Chat is the human version of SYN/ACK. Chat's advantage
                                      > is not just low bandwidth, therefore, but tolerance of widely varying
                                      > latency, so long as its beneath a conversational threshold.

                                      You bet. Chat is like a duck in water on the internet because of that. And audio
                                      streaming on the internet is like a duck in a snowsuit: it's not going to fly no
                                      matter how hard it flaps.

                                      It's not that Real Audio doesn't work fine over broadband. It's that out-of-band
                                      transmission is cheaper, more scalable, uses well established open standards like MP3
                                      and HTTP, doesn't force me to re-download material, and allows me to listen according
                                      to my own schedule.

                                      - Lucas
                                    • Todd Boyle
                                      Justin said ... Lucas said ... Any scheme which involves users in choosing efficient methods of getting audio and video content, has an implicit incentive
                                      Message 18 of 21 , Jan 3, 2001
                                      • 0 Attachment
                                        Justin said
                                        > > What I would like to see is some economic signals back to the
                                        > > end user that tell him streaming content costs more, so that
                                        > > the system can be brought to equilibrium, and provide a more
                                        > > accurate allocation of what people really want.
                                        >
                                        > I don't think thats necessary. Users will soon start to realize the
                                        > drastically better speed and quality of cached content over real-time
                                        > content and tend to gravitate towards the cached. Content providers will
                                        > further push this by realizing massive bandwidth savings for cached
                                        > content over real-time content.

                                        Lucas said

                                        > It's not that Real Audio doesn't work fine over broadband. It's
                                        > that out-of-band transmission is cheaper, more scalable, uses well
                                        > established open standards like MP3 and HTTP, doesn't force me to
                                        > re-download material, and allows me to listen according to my own schedule

                                        Any scheme which involves users in choosing efficient methods of getting
                                        audio and video content, has an implicit incentive system somewhere.
                                        If people can get what they want with RealAudio or its open source
                                        counterparts, why would they look one inch further? The same goes
                                        for content providers (i.e. those 100,000 small broadcasters.)

                                        Beneath your plan lurks the soviet planned economy in which, for
                                        lack of any other economic means of allocatoin, consumer goods
                                        were allocated based on who was willing to stand in lines the longest
                                        number of hours. That is how our highway system works too. Why
                                        not hold your noses and let people pay pennies for bandwidth?? Is
                                        there something morally wrong with that?

                                        Remember, we are in an era of abundant bandwidth and it need not be
                                        costly on a micropayments basis. Avoiding a micropayments infrastruc.
                                        plays into the hands of centrallized power i.e. the telcos and ISPs
                                        will pay for the whole thing by extracting money in other ways.

                                        Wishing all those routers and fiber were really free, or trying to
                                        steal or freeload bandwidth is a losing game. I want to win.
                                        I will pay my $5 or whatever it costs, per month (this will tend
                                        to keep the spammers and commercial broadcasters out, by the way)

                                        I do honor your ideas and your accomplishments. I will not
                                        pester you further with these ideas.

                                        TOdd
                                      • Justin Chapweske
                                        ... I don t think thats necessary. Users will soon start to realize the drastically better speed and quality of cached content over real-time content and tend
                                        Message 19 of 21 , Jan 3, 2001
                                        • 0 Attachment
                                          >
                                          > What I would like to see is some economic signals back to the
                                          > end user that tell him streaming content costs more, so that
                                          > the system can be brought to equilibrium, and provide a more
                                          > accurate allocation of what people really want.
                                          >

                                          I don't think thats necessary. Users will soon start to realize the
                                          drastically better speed and quality of cached content over real-time
                                          content and tend to gravitate towards the cached. Content providers will
                                          further push this by realizing massive bandwidth savings for cached
                                          content over real-time content.

                                          --
                                          Justin Chapweske, Lead Swarmcast Developer, openCOLA Inc.
                                          http://www.sourceforge.net/projects/swarmcast/
                                        • Clay Shirky
                                          ... This makes me wonder if its time to update Godwin s Law. ... This would make sense if it were merely a matter of nose holding, but people don t _want_ to
                                          Message 20 of 21 , Jan 3, 2001
                                          • 0 Attachment
                                            > Beneath your plan lurks the soviet planned economy in which, [...]

                                            This makes me wonder if its time to update Godwin's Law.

                                            > for lack of any other economic means of allocatoin, consumer goods
                                            > were allocated based on who was willing to stand in lines the
                                            > longest number of hours. That is how our highway system works too.
                                            > Why not hold your noses and let people pay pennies for bandwidth??

                                            This would make sense if it were merely a matter of nose holding, but
                                            people don't _want_ to pay pennies for bandwidth, so any competitor
                                            offering all-you-can-eat pricing will tend to win.

                                            The Case Against Micropayments
                                            http://www.oreillynet.com/pub/a/p2p/2000/12/19/micropayments.html

                                            > Is there something morally wrong with that?

                                            Nope, its just a practical issue.

                                            Note that this does not mean that price cannot be used to segregate
                                            classes of service, as in Odlyzko's "Paris Metro Pricing" model.

                                            http://www.research.att.com/~amo/doc/paris.metro.minimal.txt

                                            It just means that micropayments are doomed as the method for doing so
                                            for any consumer app.

                                            --
                                            Clay Shirky | shirky.com - Essays on the Internet:
                                            http://www.shirky.com/ | Culture, Economics, Globalization
                                          • Oliver Willis
                                            At it s core the Humancasting system I m trying to develop, has caching at its core. Video isn t blasted all over the internet, but instead intelligently tries
                                            Message 21 of 21 , Jan 3, 2001
                                            • 0 Attachment
                                              At it's core the Humancasting system I'm trying to
                                              develop, has caching at its core. Video isn't blasted
                                              all over the internet, but instead intelligently tries
                                              to work its way effeciently to the user. Its one to
                                              many without a "scattershot" approach...

                                              --- Todd Boyle <tboyle@...> wrote:
                                              > Dave Winer said
                                              > > Little-known fact: Most of the videos you see on
                                              > TV news are many hours if
                                              > > not days old.
                                              > >
                                              > > It's a pure tradeoff. The aha is that for some if
                                              > not most video, a few
                                              > > hours makes no difference at all.
                                              >
                                              > I fully agree with the goal of caching whenever it
                                              > can *possibly*
                                              > be achieved. e.g. music clips or nonurgent news
                                              > broadcasts.
                                              >
                                              > Who could disagree with THAT?
                                              >
                                              > Since there are also times when realtime audio or
                                              > video
                                              > is needed and desired, it will of course be achieved
                                              > by some
                                              > software, regardless of anything we do or say. And
                                              > those
                                              > users *will* clog the pipes if nothing is done about
                                              > it.
                                              >
                                              > What I would like to see is some economic signals
                                              > back to the
                                              > end user that tell him streaming content costs more,
                                              > so that
                                              > the system can be brought to equilibrium, and
                                              > provide a more
                                              > accurate allocation of what people really want.
                                              >
                                              > If they want to hear ANY music clip immediately
                                              > regardless of
                                              > whether it's in the cache, then, they are going to
                                              > get it! The
                                              > challenge for decentrallization workgroup is to find
                                              > a way to
                                              > provide the same content cheaper faster via cache or
                                              > edge
                                              > routing, etc. And to politically and economically
                                              > isolate the
                                              > streaming pigs so they don't consume the whole
                                              > commons without
                                              > paying for it, one way or another.
                                              >
                                              > IN traffic management this has never been resolved
                                              > and in Seattle
                                              > for instance we've decided for some decades now, to
                                              > let the
                                              > highways fill up with cars and let the delays
                                              > themselves provide
                                              > the message. That is not an optimal way of
                                              > everybody getting
                                              > what they need.
                                              >
                                              > In conclusion I urge developers of decentrallized
                                              > routing and
                                              > communication systems to build in a micro general
                                              > ledger into
                                              > the router so that it can conduct itself like a
                                              > business. Its
                                              > GL rows would charge for resources and also maintain
                                              > balances,
                                              > just as Mojonation does.
                                              >
                                              > Why use a GL structure? Because it interfaces with
                                              > real business
                                              > systems transparently, and, makes every node a
                                              > general purpose
                                              > business transaction platform. This enables the
                                              > exchange and
                                              > aggregation of balance sheet balances such as
                                              > payables and
                                              > receivables, as rows in a table, in a database like
                                              > PostgresQL.
                                              > This uncouples, finally, the decision to settle/pay
                                              > them from
                                              > the choice of a settlement provider. All of today's
                                              > payment
                                              > and settlment schemes are hardwired to a particular
                                              > bank (duh).
                                              >
                                              > Thus, the byproduct of these little GL structures is
                                              > to enable
                                              > individuals and small businesses to buy, sell, and
                                              > send and receive
                                              > payments over the network outside of banks. I
                                              > posted a detailed
                                              > example of how ledger settlement can work on the
                                              > tipster list
                                              > last week, after meeting with Jeff Kandt,
                                              > http://tipster.weblogs.com/discuss
                                              >
                                              > TOdd

                                              =====
                                              Oliver Willis
                                              owillis@...

                                              __________________________________________________
                                              Do You Yahoo!?
                                              Yahoo! Photos - Share your holiday photos online!
                                              http://photos.yahoo.com/
                                            Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.