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Re: [Debunking Debunkers] Re: Crop Circles---Has Anyone Done the Math?

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  • John Beatty
    Actually what it is is convenient. Saying the Army secured a given area puts a patina of authenticity to a claim that can be plausible any way the claim
    Message 1 of 14 , Dec 18, 2007
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      Actually what it is is convenient.  Saying "the Army" secured a given area puts a patina of authenticity to a claim that can be plausible any way the claim works, and becomes irrefutable when there is no record of "the Army" ever doing any such thing.  If there really is no evidence, a "cover-up" can be claimed.  If the evidence is ever  iron-clad bullet-proof and undeniable, then "the Army" gets the credit for it.  But since there are few military organizations that can keep anything secret for long, this kind of a claim is mostly made by persons who never wore the uniform.
       
      Since there has been, as OE states, no irrefutable evidence of the extraterrestrial origins of crop circles a "cover-up" can be claimed.  Since, further, there have been several demonstrations of just how these displays are made that the ET-wanters can simply dismiss as either lying or deluded, we can also state that these objects are of uncertain origin when we deny that there is or even can be any evidence to the contrary.
       
      For those who see ancient (and contemporary) astronauts in large ground designs such as Nazca, perhaps they can also guide us in understanding why so many Medival cathedrals were made in the sign of a cross that can only be seen from altitude centuries before man first took flight.  Were the faithful trying to send messages of welcome that only God could see?  Or perhaps they were looking for ancient Christians from Mars?
       
      Either way, you believe what you want to believe, and evidence can do nothing to refute  faith.  It's trying to teach pigs to sing:  They may fool the stone deaf, but the pig just won't join the choir.
       
      _________________________________
      John D. Beatty, Milwaukee Wisconsin
      AMCIVWAR.COM/AMCIVWAR.NET
      "History is the only test for the consequences of ideas"


      ----- Original Message ----
      From: Odd Emperor <oddempire@...>
      To: debunkingdebunkers@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2007 5:17:44 AM
      Subject: [Debunking Debunkers] Re: Crop Circles---Has Anyone Done the Math?

      I think this is only true if you go into the issue with your mind
      already made up. If you already believe that some strange force
      creates crop circles than it becomes easy to manufacture evidence.

      Was it possible that Colin or someone in "the Army" might have
      circumvented the test? Security is only as good as the people setting
      it. "Some guys from the Army" doesn't sound too reliable to me.

      OE

      http://oddempire. org/home

      --- In debunkingdebunkers@ yahoogroups. com, ausiepath9 <no_reply@.. .>
      wrote:

      >
      > HI
      >
      > Actually there is one very good recorded case I can think off the top
      > of my head; by Colin Andrews where himself and the army setup cameras
      > etc...a crop
      circle appeared right next to the field where they were
      > situated and no human could have possibly done that as the area was
      > secured.
      >
      > Go to www.cropcircles. org they make many of them but didnt make the
      > ones seen here in Tully etc..in the 60's in Australia.
      > Again that's not entirely correct, we can distinguish between man-made
      > and others, soil samples prove there is an anomaly not connected to
      > any human fakery.
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > <oddempire@> wrote:
      > >
      > > > I'm sure you'll have you're usual flippant and unconvincing pseudo-
      > > > rational response, O.E., so by all means go ahead demonstrate your
      > self-
      > > > perceived cleverness.
      > > >
      > > >
      > >
      > > OK, I'll bite.. here's some self perceived cleverness (at least you
      > > got one thing
      right.)
      > >
      > > 1) We cannot rule out that humans are capable of making any crop
      > > circle no matter how complex. It's impossible to prove otherwise.
      > >
      > > 2) There is not a single case where even a scrap of evidence
      > > suggesting that some non human entity made even one crop circle.
      > > Please tell me how I'm wrong about this by citing a specific
      > > instance(s) where any evidence exists suggesting non-terrestrial
      > > origins of a crop circle. Heck, here's an easier one, find some
      > > compelling evidence of any visit by extraterrestrials to the Earth.
      > >
      > >
      > > Additionally, I've never been involved with crop circle making but I
      > > and several of my friends did create a 2/3 scale replica of the
      > > Uffington horse figure. This project took about eight hours total
      > > times about 10 people.
      > > Image of original here
      > > http://wiltshirewhi tehorses. org.uk/images/ uffaerial. jpg
      > >
      > > I have a photo of the one we created somewhere, if I find it I'll post
      > > it in the photos section.
      > >
      > > The Odd Emperor
      > >
      >




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    • James Dawson
      Ausiepath, It would seem a simple experiment to choose the biggest and most complex crop circle that has yet appeared and have a group of people, perhaps those
      Message 2 of 14 , Dec 18, 2007
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        Ausiepath,
         
        It would seem a simple experiment to choose the biggest and most complex crop circle that has yet appeared and have a group of people, perhaps those who've claimed to fake many, attempt to reproduce it, at night.
         
        Let some people, both "believers" and "skeptics" observe and time them.  If it's successfully done, then doubts that it could be man-made would be eliminated or significantly lessened.
         
        You may have seen the glib and insulting response I got from John Beatty (message 6282).  Do you know of any groups similar to this one that isn't plagued people who want to interfere with a discussion among open-minded but critical people about in anomolies/mysteries/unexplained phenomena?  One that's moderated?
         
        Why isn't this forum being moderated and people who make it unpleasant banned?  I know you've got to having opposing viewpoints on a discussion forum, but a moderator has to make a judement about when messages go beyond good-faith challenges and become disruptive.
         
        Anyway, I've been avoiding this forum for a long time, even though it seemed like a good idea.  Maybe I'll stick around with it, but it'd be nice to find a "critical Fortean" forum with some intelligent discussion of POSSIBLE mysteries---not snarky, simplistic and peurile putdowns.
         
        Clyde,
         
        Are you still out there?  I looked around and found that DD2 and "rubybaby" had been deleted.  If you no longer have the time or interest to moderate this forum, would you consider turning over moderation to somebody who might?
         
        James N. Dawson

        ausiepath9 <no_reply@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
        HI

        Actually there is one very good recorded case I can think off the top
        of my head; by Colin Andrews where himself and the army setup cameras
        etc...a crop circle appeared right next to the field where they were
        situated and no human could have possibly done that as the area was
        secured.

        Go to www.cropcircles. org they make many of them but didnt make the
        ones seen here in Tully etc..in the 60's in Australia.
        Again that's not entirely correct, we can distinguish between man-made
        and others, soil samples prove there is an anomaly not connected to
        any human fakery.

        <oddempire@. ..> wrote:
        >
        > > I'm sure you'll have you're usual flippant and unconvincing pseudo-
        > > rational response, O.E., so by all means go ahead demonstrate your
        self-
        > > perceived cleverness.
        > >
        > >
        >
        > OK, I'll bite.. here's some self perceived cleverness (at least you
        > got one thing right.)
        >
        > 1) We cannot rule out that humans are capable of making any crop
        > circle no matter how complex. It's impossible to prove otherwise.
        >
        > 2) There is not a single case where even a scrap of evidence
        > suggesting that some non human entity made even one crop circle.
        > Please tell me how I'm wrong about this by citing a specific
        > instance(s) where any evidence exists suggesting non-terrestrial
        > origins of a crop circle. Heck, here's an easier one, find some
        > compelling evidence of any visit by extraterrestrials to the Earth.
        >
        >
        > Additionally, I've never been involved with crop circle making but I
        > and several of my friends did create a 2/3 scale replica of the
        > Uffington horse figure. This project took about eight hours total
        > times about 10 people.
        > Image of original here
        > http://wiltshirewhi tehorses. org.uk/images/ uffaerial. jpg
        >
        > I have a photo of the one we created somewhere, if I find it I'll post
        > it in the photos section.
        >
        > The Odd Emperor
        >



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      • John Beatty
        What you WANT is a forum where everyone agrees with you. What you do NOT want is anyone to simply point out that many mysteries have been manufactured. If
        Message 3 of 14 , Dec 19, 2007
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          What you WANT is a forum where everyone agrees with you.  What you do NOT want is anyone to simply point out that many "mysteries" have been manufactured.
           
          If pointing out that regardless of evidence you will believe what you choose makes me "glib and insulting" I most humbly apologize to all entities everywhere and in any plane of existance for any percieved insults this imputation of the definintion of faith may have engendered and for anything I may ever say or mean or be interpreted to mean (including the anagramatic insults that are so common these days) at any time in any life I may have ever lived. 
           
          But you have not pointed out where I may be wrong, and you have not pointed out where anything I have stated on this or any other forum would be grounds for having me banned.  Simply disagreeing with you shouldn't be enough.  If it is this forum isn't worth anyone's time.    
           
          _________________________________
          John D. Beatty, Milwaukee Wisconsin
          AMCIVWAR.COM/AMCIVWAR.NET
          "History is the only test for the consequences of ideas"


          ----- Original Message ----
          From: James Dawson <jamesndawson@...>
          To: debunkingdebunkers@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2007 1:31:44 PM
          Subject: Re: [Debunking Debunkers] Re: Crop Circles---Has Anyone Done the Math?

          Ausiepath,
           
          It would seem a simple experiment to choose the biggest and most complex crop circle that has yet appeared and have a group of people, perhaps those who've claimed to fake many, attempt to reproduce it, at night.
           
          Let some people, both "believers" and "skeptics" observe and time them.  If it's successfully done, then doubts that it could be man-made would be eliminated or significantly lessened.
           
          You may have seen the glib and insulting response I got from John Beatty (message 6282).  Do you know of any groups similar to this one that isn't plagued people who want to interfere with a discussion among open-minded but critical people about in anomolies/mysteries /unexplained phenomena?  One that's moderated?
           
          Why isn't this forum being moderated and people who make it unpleasant banned?  I know you've got to having opposing viewpoints on a discussion forum, but a moderator has to make a judement about when messages go beyond good-faith challenges and become disruptive.
           
          Anyway, I've been avoiding this forum for a long time, even though it seemed like a good idea.  Maybe I'll stick around with it, but it'd be nice to find a "critical Fortean" forum with some intelligent discussion of POSSIBLE mysteries--- not snarky, simplistic and peurile putdowns.
           
          Clyde,
           
          Are you still out there?  I looked around and found that DD2 and "rubybaby" had been deleted.  If you no longer have the time or interest to moderate this forum, would you consider turning over moderation to somebody who might?
           
          James N. Dawson

          ausiepath9 <no_reply@yahoogroup s.com> wrote:
          HI

          Actually there is one very good recorded case I can think off the top
          of my head; by Colin Andrews where himself and the army setup cameras
          etc...a crop circle appeared right next to the field where they were
          situated and no human could have possibly done that as the area was
          secured.

          Go to www.cropcircles. org they make many of them but didnt make the
          ones seen here in Tully etc..in the 60's in Australia.
          Again that's not entirely correct, we can distinguish between man-made
          and others, soil samples prove there is an anomaly not connected to
          any human fakery.

          <oddempire@. ..> wrote:
          >
          > > I'm sure you'll have you're usual flippant and unconvincing pseudo-
          > > rational response, O.E., so by all means go ahead demonstrate your
          self-
          > > perceived cleverness.
          > >
          > >
          >
          > OK, I'll bite.. here's some self perceived cleverness (at least you
          > got one thing right.)
          >
          > 1) We cannot rule out that humans are capable of making any crop
          > circle no matter how complex. It's impossible to prove otherwise.
          >
          > 2) There is not a single case where even a scrap of evidence
          > suggesting that some non human entity made even one crop circle.
          > Please tell me how I'm wrong about this by citing a specific
          > instance(s) where any evidence exists suggesting non-terrestrial
          > origins of a crop circle. Heck, here's an easier one, find some
          > compelling evidence of any visit by extraterrestrials to the Earth.
          >
          >
          > Additionally, I've never been involved with crop circle making but I
          > and several of my friends did create a 2/3 scale replica of the
          > Uffington horse figure. This project took about eight hours total
          > times about 10 people.
          > Image of original here
          > http://wiltshirewhi tehorses. org.uk/images/ uffaerial. jpg
          >
          > I have a photo of the one we created somewhere, if I find it I'll post
          > it in the photos section.
          >
          > The Odd Emperor
          >



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        • James Dawson
          John, Every group has a certain purpose, philosophy and focus. That s why they re moderated. My understanding of the purpose of this group was for likeminded
          Message 4 of 14 , Dec 19, 2007
          • 0 Attachment
            John,
             
            Every group has a certain purpose, philosophy and focus.  That's why they're moderated.
             
            My understanding of the purpose of this group was for likeminded people to "debunk" debunkers, or skeptics, if you prefer.  It was meant for those of us who see some or many things as unexplained, to discuss these things among ourselves.  I'm sure we'll have many disagreements, but agree more on fundamentals than we do with you.  Maybe there are other groups specifically formed for "believers", "undecideds" and "skeptics" to debate, but from what I understood from it's "mission statement", this forum isn't one of them.
             
            I don't believe in a lot of things, but I don't feel the need to join a group of people who does believe in them and badger and hector them about it.  My God, I don't know whether to laugh, cry or stare dumbfounded by how obsessive and angry you are about our "irrational" beliefs!
             
            Okay, maybe we're "irrational" and "unscientific.  You've told us all that very bitterly and tersely a million times.  You've thoroughly trounced us!  Can't you leave us to our "delusions".  Maybe they make us happy!
             
            Anyway, John, and Odd Emperor, if I do stay on this sad, hilarious forum for any length of time, I won't be responding to any of your comments.   I'm not mad.  I just don't have time to rehash irreconciliable differences.
             
            Hope you find some willing sparring partners or people to "put in their place" and have fun doing it.
             
            James
             

            John Beatty <jdbeatty.geo@...> wrote:
            What you WANT is a forum where everyone agrees with you.  What you do NOT want is anyone to simply point out that many "mysteries" have been manufactured.
             
            If pointing out that regardless of evidence you will believe what you choose makes me "glib and insulting" I most humbly apologize to all entities everywhere and in any plane of existance for any percieved insults this imputation of the definintion of faith may have engendered and for anything I may ever say or mean or be interpreted to mean (including the anagramatic insults that are so common these days) at any time in any life I may have ever lived. 
             
            But you have not pointed out where I may be wrong, and you have not pointed out where anything I have stated on this or any other forum would be grounds for having me banned.  Simply disagreeing with you shouldn't be enough.  If it is this forum isn't worth anyone's time.    
             
            ____________ _________ _________ ___
            John D. Beatty, Milwaukee Wisconsin
            AMCIVWAR.COM/ AMCIVWAR. NET
            "History is the only test for the consequences of ideas"


            ----- Original Message ----
            From: James Dawson <jamesndawson@ yahoo.com>
            To: debunkingdebunkers@ yahoogroups. com
            Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2007 1:31:44 PM
            Subject: Re: [Debunking Debunkers] Re: Crop Circles---Has Anyone Done the Math?

            Ausiepath,
             
            It would seem a simple experiment to choose the biggest and most complex crop circle that has yet appeared and have a group of people, perhaps those who've claimed to fake many, attempt to reproduce it, at night.
             
            Let some people, both "believers" and "skeptics" observe and time them.  If it's successfully done, then doubts that it could be man-made would be eliminated or significantly lessened.
             
            You may have seen the glib and insulting response I got from John Beatty (message 6282).  Do you know of any groups similar to this one that isn't plagued people who want to interfere with a discussion among open-minded but critical people about in anomolies/mysteries /unexplained phenomena?  One that's moderated?
             
            Why isn't this forum being moderated and people who make it unpleasant banned?  I know you've got to having opposing viewpoints on a discussion forum, but a moderator has to make a judement about when messages go beyond good-faith challenges and become disruptive.
             
            Anyway, I've been avoiding this forum for a long time, even though it seemed like a good idea.  Maybe I'll stick around with it, but it'd be nice to find a "critical Fortean" forum with some intelligent discussion of POSSIBLE mysteries--- not snarky, simplistic and peurile putdowns.
             
            Clyde,
             
            Are you still out there?  I looked around and found that DD2 and "rubybaby" had been deleted.  If you no longer have the time or interest to moderate this forum, would you consider turning over moderation to somebody who might?
             
            James N. Dawson

            ausiepath9 <no_reply@yahoogroup s.com> wrote:
            HI

            Actually there is one very good recorded case I can think off the top
            of my head; by Colin Andrews where himself and the army setup cameras
            etc...a crop circle appeared right next to the field where they were
            situated and no human could have possibly done that as the area was
            secured.

            Go to www.cropcircles. org they make many of them but didnt make the
            ones seen here in Tully etc..in the 60's in Australia.
            Again that's not entirely correct, we can distinguish between man-made
            and others, soil samples prove there is an anomaly not connected to
            any human fakery.

            <oddempire@. ..> wrote:
            >
            > > I'm sure you'll have you're usual flippant and unconvincing pseudo-
            > > rational response, O.E., so by all means go ahead demonstrate your
            self-
            > > perceived cleverness.
            > >
            > >
            >
            > OK, I'll bite.. here's some self perceived cleverness (at least you
            > got one thing right.)
            >
            > 1) We cannot rule out that humans are capable of making any crop
            > circle no matter how complex. It's impossible to prove otherwise.
            >
            > 2) There is not a single case where even a scrap of evidence
            > suggesting that some non human entity made even one crop circle.
            > Please tell me how I'm wrong about this by citing a specific
            > instance(s) where any evidence exists suggesting non-terrestrial
            > origins of a crop circle. Heck, here's an easier one, find some
            > compelling evidence of any visit by extraterrestrials to the Earth.
            >
            >
            > Additionally, I've never been involved with crop circle making but I
            > and several of my friends did create a 2/3 scale replica of the
            > Uffington horse figure. This project took about eight hours total
            > times about 10 people.
            > Image of original here
            > http://wiltshirewhi tehorses. org.uk/images/ uffaerial. jpg
            >
            > I have a photo of the one we created somewhere, if I find it I'll post
            > it in the photos section.
            >
            > The Odd Emperor
            >



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          • John Beatty
            I don t participate in Greek choruses of backslapping followers who never question the basis for their beliefs. Sorry to disappoint you, but this is an open
            Message 5 of 14 , Dec 20, 2007
            • 0 Attachment

              I don't participate in  Greek choruses of backslapping followers who never question the basis for their beliefs.  Sorry to disappoint you, but this is an open and free forum for discussion. 

               

              Since this is the first traffic I've seen here for nearly a year I hardly would think you would have been badgered out of it.  You are entirely free to participate or not.


               
              _________________________________
              John D. Beatty, Milwaukee Wisconsin
              AMCIVWAR.COM/AMCIVWAR.NET
              "History is the only test for the consequences of ideas"


              ----- Original Message ----
              From: James Dawson <jamesndawson@...>
              To: debunkingdebunkers@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2007 2:33:28 PM
              Subject: Re: [Debunking Debunkers] Re: Crop Circles---Has Anyone Done the Math?

              John,
               
              Every group has a certain purpose, philosophy and focus.  That's why they're moderated.
               
              My understanding of the purpose of this group was for likeminded people to "debunk" debunkers, or skeptics, if you prefer.  It was meant for those of us who see some or many things as unexplained, to discuss these things among ourselves.  I'm sure we'll have many disagreements, but agree more on fundamentals than we do with you.  Maybe there are other groups specifically formed for "believers", "undecideds" and "skeptics" to debate, but from what I understood from it's "mission statement", this forum isn't one of them.
               
              I don't believe in a lot of things, but I don't feel the need to join a group of people who does believe in them and badger and hector them about it.  My God, I don't know whether to laugh, cry or stare dumbfounded by how obsessive and angry you are about our "irrational" beliefs!
               
              Okay, maybe we're "irrational" and "unscientific.  You've told us all that very bitterly and tersely a million times.  You've thoroughly trounced us!  Can't you leave us to our "delusions".  Maybe they make us happy!
               
              Anyway, John, and Odd Emperor, if I do stay on this sad, hilarious forum for any length of time, I won't be responding to any of your comments.   I'm not mad.  I just don't have time to rehash irreconciliable differences.
               
              Hope you find some willing sparring partners or people to "put in their place" and have fun doing it.
               
              James
               

              John Beatty <jdbeatty.geo@ yahoo.com> wrote:
              What you WANT is a forum where everyone agrees with you.  What you do NOT want is anyone to simply point out that many "mysteries" have been manufactured.
               
              If pointing out that regardless of evidence you will believe what you choose makes me "glib and insulting" I most humbly apologize to all entities everywhere and in any plane of existance for any percieved insults this imputation of the definintion of faith may have engendered and for anything I may ever say or mean or be interpreted to mean (including the anagramatic insults that are so common these days) at any time in any life I may have ever lived. 
               
              But you have not pointed out where I may be wrong, and you have not pointed out where anything I have stated on this or any other forum would be grounds for having me banned.  Simply disagreeing with you shouldn't be enough.  If it is this forum isn't worth anyone's time.    
               
              ____________ _________ _________ ___
              John D. Beatty, Milwaukee Wisconsin
              AMCIVWAR.COM/ AMCIVWAR. NET
              "History is the only test for the consequences of ideas"


              ----- Original Message ----
              From: James Dawson <jamesndawson@ yahoo.com>
              To: debunkingdebunkers@ yahoogroups. com
              Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2007 1:31:44 PM
              Subject: Re: [Debunking Debunkers] Re: Crop Circles---Has Anyone Done the Math?

              Ausiepath,
               
              It would seem a simple experiment to choose the biggest and most complex crop circle that has yet appeared and have a group of people, perhaps those who've claimed to fake many, attempt to reproduce it, at night.
               
              Let some people, both "believers" and "skeptics" observe and time them.  If it's successfully done, then doubts that it could be man-made would be eliminated or significantly lessened.
               
              You may have seen the glib and insulting response I got from John Beatty (message 6282).  Do you know of any groups similar to this one that isn't plagued people who want to interfere with a discussion among open-minded but critical people about in anomolies/mysteries /unexplained phenomena?  One that's moderated?
               
              Why isn't this forum being moderated and people who make it unpleasant banned?  I know you've got to having opposing viewpoints on a discussion forum, but a moderator has to make a judement about when messages go beyond good-faith challenges and become disruptive.
               
              Anyway, I've been avoiding this forum for a long time, even though it seemed like a good idea.  Maybe I'll stick around with it, but it'd be nice to find a "critical Fortean" forum with some intelligent discussion of POSSIBLE mysteries--- not snarky, simplistic and peurile putdowns.
               
              Clyde,
               
              Are you still out there?  I looked around and found that DD2 and "rubybaby" had been deleted.  If you no longer have the time or interest to moderate this forum, would you consider turning over moderation to somebody who might?
               
              James N. Dawson

              ausiepath9 <no_reply@yahoogroup s.com> wrote:
              HI

              Actually there is one very good recorded case I can think off the top
              of my head; by Colin Andrews where himself and the army setup cameras
              etc...a crop circle appeared right next to the field where they were
              situated and no human could have possibly done that as the area was
              secured.

              Go to www.cropcircles. org they make many of them but didnt make the
              ones seen here in Tully etc..in the 60's in Australia.
              Again that's not entirely correct, we can distinguish between man-made
              and others, soil samples prove there is an anomaly not connected to
              any human fakery.

              <oddempire@. ..> wrote:
              >
              > > I'm sure you'll have you're usual flippant and unconvincing pseudo-
              > > rational response, O.E., so by all means go ahead demonstrate your
              self-
              > > perceived cleverness.
              > >
              > >
              >
              > OK, I'll bite.. here's some self perceived cleverness (at least you
              > got one thing right.)
              >
              > 1) We cannot rule out that humans are capable of making any crop
              > circle no matter how complex. It's impossible to prove otherwise.
              >
              > 2) There is not a single case where even a scrap of evidence
              > suggesting that some non human entity made even one crop circle.
              > Please tell me how I'm wrong about this by citing a specific
              > instance(s) where any evidence exists suggesting non-terrestrial
              > origins of a crop circle. Heck, here's an easier one, find some
              > compelling evidence of any visit by extraterrestrials to the Earth.
              >
              >
              > Additionally, I've never been involved with crop circle making but I
              > and several of my friends did create a 2/3 scale replica of the
              > Uffington horse figure. This project took about eight hours total
              > times about 10 people.
              > Image of original here
              > http://wiltshirewhi tehorses. org.uk/images/ uffaerial. jpg
              >
              > I have a photo of the one we created somewhere, if I find it I'll post
              > it in the photos section.
              >
              > The Odd Emperor
              >



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              Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage.


              Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now.




              Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search.
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