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It vewy quiet in here.

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  • Odd Emperor
    Wow, no one seems to be around! Are there true no debunkers to debunk? Or no debunkers to debunk the debunkers? Or no debunkers to debunk debunkers who want to
    Message 1 of 14 , Jun 21, 2006
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      Wow, no one seems to be around! Are there true no debunkers to debunk?
      Or no debunkers to debunk the debunkers? Or no debunkers to debunk
      debunkers who want to become debunkers themselves?

      Ow, that makes my head hurt!


      The Odd Emperor (a debunker)
      http://oddempire.org
    • James N. Dawson
      Odd Emperor: What a strange bit of synchronicity. Pretty much on an impulse, just in the last moment while rathered bored, I decided to make some comments and
      Message 2 of 14 , Jun 21, 2006
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        Odd Emperor:

        What a strange bit of synchronicity. Pretty much on an impulse, just
        in the last moment while rathered bored, I decided to make some
        comments and ask some questions I had on crop circles and post them on
        this forum. I've had them for some time, and just a few weeks ago,
        made them to my nephew while we were watching something on television
        about them.

        I can go along, tentatively at least, that SOME of the crop circles
        COULD have been made by intelligent, skillfull and resourceful hoaxers,
        but I'm rather more skeptical that they could have made the MUCH
        larger, MUCH more complex ones.

        THE BIG QUESTION IS----After ALL these years of hoaxing, WOULDN'T as a
        mere matter of odds, AT LEAST ONE HOAXER OR GROUP THEREOF, have been
        caught in the act by a farmer or some other person, or in the case of
        the extremely large and complex circles, failed to finish them by sun
        up? That such a thing has NOT happened, that there are (to my
        knowledge, and correct me if I'm wrong) NO U N F I S H E D circles,
        not to mention one single human error or terragraphic "typo" if you
        will, seems to be rather improbable to me---though of course, I can't
        say impossible.

        I'm sure you'll have you're usual flippant and unconvincing pseudo-
        rational response, O.E., so by all means go ahead demonstrate your self-
        perceived cleverness.

        But seriously, I've often wondered if anyone's ever "done the math" and
        actually calculated, even if only roughly, how many man-hours one of
        these (quite beautiful) "monsters" must have required to create, and
        whether they actually COULD have been done in the space of a night.
        Any comments, anybody. Serious and thoughtful ones preferred.

        James N. Dawson

        --- In debunkingdebunkers@yahoogroups.com, "Odd Emperor"
        <oddempire@...> wrote:
        >
        > Wow, no one seems to be around! Are there true no debunkers to debunk?
        > Or no debunkers to debunk the debunkers? Or no debunkers to debunk
        > debunkers who want to become debunkers themselves?
        >
        > Ow, that makes my head hurt!
        >
        >
        > The Odd Emperor (a debunker)
        > http://oddempire.org
        >
      • John Beatty
        Look in at Medium spirit. For more than a week I ve been getting guesses to a few personal questions, and none of the mediums there can even come close. ...
        Message 3 of 14 , Jun 22, 2006
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          Look in at Medium spirit. For more than a week I've
          been getting guesses to a few personal questions, and
          none of the "mediums" there can even come close.

          --- Odd Emperor <oddempire@...> wrote:

          > Wow, no one seems to be around! Are there true no
          > debunkers to debunk?
          > Or no debunkers to debunk the debunkers? Or no
          > debunkers to debunk
          > debunkers who want to become debunkers themselves?
          >
          > Ow, that makes my head hurt!
          >
          >
          > The Odd Emperor (a debunker)
          > http://oddempire.org
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >


          _________________________________
          John D. Beatty, Milwaukee Wisconsin
          AMCIVWAR.COM/AMCIVWAR.NET
          "History is the only test for the consequences of ideas"

          __________________________________________________
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        • John Beatty
          ... mere matter of odds, AT LEAST ONE HOAXER OR GROUP THEREOF, have been caught in the act by a farmer or some other person, or in the case of the extremely
          Message 4 of 14 , Jun 22, 2006
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            >After ALL these years of hoaxing, WOULDN'T as a
            mere matter of odds, AT LEAST ONE HOAXER OR GROUP
            THEREOF, have been caught in the act by a farmer or
            some other person, or in the case of the extremely
            large and complex circles, failed to finish them by
            sun up?

            Have been. News crews have been summoned. Broadcasts
            are frequently made of hoaxers, their tools, and their
            creations.

            >and correct me if I'm wrong) NO U N F I S H E D
            circles, not to mention one single human error or
            terragraphic "typo" if you will,

            What would you compare it against? How do you know
            that ALL crop circles aren't unfinished, since we have
            no idea what the "visitors" may be trying to say or do
            with them?

            >I'm sure you'll have you're usual flippant and
            unconvincing pseudo-rational response, O.E., so by all
            means go ahead demonstrate your self-perceived
            cleverness.

            By this you mean any response that you don't agree
            with.

            >But seriously, I've often wondered if anyone's ever
            "done the math" and actually calculated, even if only
            roughly, how many man-hours one of these (quite
            beautiful) "monsters" must have required to create,
            and whether they actually COULD have been done in the
            space of a night.

            Maybe not. But without continuous active surveilance
            of every inch of the Earth's surface, it is impossible
            to know how long some of them took.

            >Any comments, anybody. Serious and thoughtful ones
            preferred.

            By this you mean those that argree with you. Sorry to
            dissapoint.



            _________________________________
            John D. Beatty, Milwaukee Wisconsin
            AMCIVWAR.COM/AMCIVWAR.NET
            "History is the only test for the consequences of ideas"

            __________________________________________________
            Do You Yahoo!?
            Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
            http://mail.yahoo.com
          • Odd Emperor
            ... Good point! Not to mention farmers selling tickets to wo-woos for the privilege of tromping around a barley field looking for aliens. ... You stand
            Message 5 of 14 , Jun 22, 2006
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              --- In debunkingdebunkers@yahoogroups.com, John Beatty
              <jdbeatty.geo@...> wrote:
              >
              > >After ALL these years of hoaxing, WOULDN'T as a
              > mere matter of odds, AT LEAST ONE HOAXER OR GROUP
              > THEREOF, have been caught in the act by a farmer or
              > some other person, or in the case of the extremely
              > large and complex circles, failed to finish them by
              > sun up?
              >
              > Have been. News crews have been summoned. Broadcasts
              > are frequently made of hoaxers, their tools, and their
              > creations.

              Good point!
              Not to mention farmers selling tickets to wo-woos for the privilege of
              tromping around a barley field looking for aliens.

              >
              > >and correct me if I'm wrong) NO U N F I S H E D
              > circles, not to mention one single human error or
              > terragraphic "typo" if you will,

              You stand corrected (I.E.) You are wrong!

              >
              > What would you compare it against? How do you know
              > that ALL crop circles aren't unfinished, since we have
              > no idea what the "visitors" may be trying to say or do
              > with them?
              >
              > >I'm sure you'll have you're usual flippant and
              > unconvincing pseudo-rational response, O.E., so by all
              > means go ahead demonstrate your self-perceived
              > cleverness.

              Not self perceived, most people think that I'm much too clever to
              argue with.

              (pssst! that's why they insult me.....just saying!)

              >
              > By this you mean any response that you don't agree
              > with.
              >
              > >But seriously, I've often wondered if anyone's ever
              > "done the math" and actually calculated, even if only
              > roughly, how many man-hours one of these (quite
              > beautiful) "monsters" must have required to create,
              > and whether they actually COULD have been done in the
              > space of a night.
              >
              > Maybe not. But without continuous active surveilance
              > of every inch of the Earth's surface, it is impossible
              > to know how long some of them took.
              >
              > >Any comments, anybody. Serious and thoughtful ones
              > preferred.

              OK by me, by that I suppose you also don't want dorky-looking POSTS IN
              ALL CAPS because you don't know how to assert yourself in mere words.
              Oh and let us not forget some gratuitous insults. They tell the world
              that you are no fool to be trifled with!

              But you are correct! It's very clear to me now that aliens traveled
              billions of miles just to stomp on some poor slob's field and make
              pretty patterns. No human could ever make crop circles! Say, those
              two drunk codgers who demonstrated how they made some? They must
              be…..aliens (who like beer.)

              Wow, I feel so enlightened now!


              >
              > By this you mean those that argree with you. Sorry to
              > dissapoint.
              >
              >
              >
              > _________________________________
              > John D. Beatty, Milwaukee Wisconsin
              > AMCIVWAR.COM/AMCIVWAR.NET
              > "History is the only test for the consequences of ideas"
              >
              > __________________________________________________
              > Do You Yahoo!?
              > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
              > http://mail.yahoo.com
              >
            • Odd Emperor
              Message 6 of 14 , Jun 22, 2006
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                .....eh....what?


                --- In debunkingdebunkers@yahoogroups.com, John Beatty
                <jdbeatty.geo@...> wrote:
                >
                > Look in at Medium spirit. For more than a week I've
                > been getting guesses to a few personal questions, and
                > none of the "mediums" there can even come close.
                >
                > --- Odd Emperor <oddempire@...> wrote:
                >
                > > Wow, no one seems to be around! Are there true no
                > > debunkers to debunk?
                > > Or no debunkers to debunk the debunkers? Or no
                > > debunkers to debunk
                > > debunkers who want to become debunkers themselves?
                > >
                > > Ow, that makes my head hurt!
                > >
                > >
                > > The Odd Emperor (a debunker)
                > > http://oddempire.org
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                >
                >
                > _________________________________
                > John D. Beatty, Milwaukee Wisconsin
                > AMCIVWAR.COM/AMCIVWAR.NET
                > "History is the only test for the consequences of ideas"
                >
                > __________________________________________________
                > Do You Yahoo!?
                > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
                > http://mail.yahoo.com
                >
              • Odd Emperor
                ... OK, I ll bite.. here s some self perceived cleverness (at least you got one thing right.) 1) We cannot rule out that humans are capable of making any crop
                Message 7 of 14 , Jun 24, 2006
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                  > I'm sure you'll have you're usual flippant and unconvincing pseudo-
                  > rational response, O.E., so by all means go ahead demonstrate your self-
                  > perceived cleverness.
                  >
                  >

                  OK, I'll bite.. here's some self perceived cleverness (at least you
                  got one thing right.)

                  1) We cannot rule out that humans are capable of making any crop
                  circle no matter how complex. It's impossible to prove otherwise.

                  2) There is not a single case where even a scrap of evidence
                  suggesting that some non human entity made even one crop circle.
                  Please tell me how I'm wrong about this by citing a specific
                  instance(s) where any evidence exists suggesting non-terrestrial
                  origins of a crop circle. Heck, here's an easier one, find some
                  compelling evidence of any visit by extraterrestrials to the Earth.


                  Additionally, I've never been involved with crop circle making but I
                  and several of my friends did create a 2/3 scale replica of the
                  Uffington horse figure. This project took about eight hours total
                  times about 10 people.
                  Image of original here
                  http://wiltshirewhitehorses.org.uk/images/uffaerial.jpg

                  I have a photo of the one we created somewhere, if I find it I'll post
                  it in the photos section.

                  The Odd Emperor
                • ausiepath9
                  HI Actually there is one very good recorded case I can think off the top of my head; by Colin Andrews where himself and the army setup cameras etc...a crop
                  Message 8 of 14 , Dec 17, 2007
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                    HI

                    Actually there is one very good recorded case I can think off the top
                    of my head; by Colin Andrews where himself and the army setup cameras
                    etc...a crop circle appeared right next to the field where they were
                    situated and no human could have possibly done that as the area was
                    secured.

                    Go to www.cropcircles.org they make many of them but didnt make the
                    ones seen here in Tully etc..in the 60's in Australia.
                    Again that's not entirely correct, we can distinguish between man-made
                    and others, soil samples prove there is an anomaly not connected to
                    any human fakery.






                    <oddempire@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > > I'm sure you'll have you're usual flippant and unconvincing pseudo-
                    > > rational response, O.E., so by all means go ahead demonstrate your
                    self-
                    > > perceived cleverness.
                    > >
                    > >
                    >
                    > OK, I'll bite.. here's some self perceived cleverness (at least you
                    > got one thing right.)
                    >
                    > 1) We cannot rule out that humans are capable of making any crop
                    > circle no matter how complex. It's impossible to prove otherwise.
                    >
                    > 2) There is not a single case where even a scrap of evidence
                    > suggesting that some non human entity made even one crop circle.
                    > Please tell me how I'm wrong about this by citing a specific
                    > instance(s) where any evidence exists suggesting non-terrestrial
                    > origins of a crop circle. Heck, here's an easier one, find some
                    > compelling evidence of any visit by extraterrestrials to the Earth.
                    >
                    >
                    > Additionally, I've never been involved with crop circle making but I
                    > and several of my friends did create a 2/3 scale replica of the
                    > Uffington horse figure. This project took about eight hours total
                    > times about 10 people.
                    > Image of original here
                    > http://wiltshirewhitehorses.org.uk/images/uffaerial.jpg
                    >
                    > I have a photo of the one we created somewhere, if I find it I'll post
                    > it in the photos section.
                    >
                    > The Odd Emperor
                    >
                  • Odd Emperor
                    I think this is only true if you go into the issue with your mind already made up. If you already believe that some strange force creates crop circles than it
                    Message 9 of 14 , Dec 18, 2007
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                      I think this is only true if you go into the issue with your mind
                      already made up. If you already believe that some strange force
                      creates crop circles than it becomes easy to manufacture evidence.

                      Was it possible that Colin or someone in "the Army" might have
                      circumvented the test? Security is only as good as the people setting
                      it. "Some guys from the Army" doesn't sound too reliable to me.

                      OE

                      http://oddempire.org/home



                      --- In debunkingdebunkers@yahoogroups.com, ausiepath9 <no_reply@...>
                      wrote:
                      >
                      > HI
                      >
                      > Actually there is one very good recorded case I can think off the top
                      > of my head; by Colin Andrews where himself and the army setup cameras
                      > etc...a crop circle appeared right next to the field where they were
                      > situated and no human could have possibly done that as the area was
                      > secured.
                      >
                      > Go to www.cropcircles.org they make many of them but didnt make the
                      > ones seen here in Tully etc..in the 60's in Australia.
                      > Again that's not entirely correct, we can distinguish between man-made
                      > and others, soil samples prove there is an anomaly not connected to
                      > any human fakery.
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > <oddempire@> wrote:
                      > >
                      > > > I'm sure you'll have you're usual flippant and unconvincing pseudo-
                      > > > rational response, O.E., so by all means go ahead demonstrate your
                      > self-
                      > > > perceived cleverness.
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > >
                      > > OK, I'll bite.. here's some self perceived cleverness (at least you
                      > > got one thing right.)
                      > >
                      > > 1) We cannot rule out that humans are capable of making any crop
                      > > circle no matter how complex. It's impossible to prove otherwise.
                      > >
                      > > 2) There is not a single case where even a scrap of evidence
                      > > suggesting that some non human entity made even one crop circle.
                      > > Please tell me how I'm wrong about this by citing a specific
                      > > instance(s) where any evidence exists suggesting non-terrestrial
                      > > origins of a crop circle. Heck, here's an easier one, find some
                      > > compelling evidence of any visit by extraterrestrials to the Earth.
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > Additionally, I've never been involved with crop circle making but I
                      > > and several of my friends did create a 2/3 scale replica of the
                      > > Uffington horse figure. This project took about eight hours total
                      > > times about 10 people.
                      > > Image of original here
                      > > http://wiltshirewhitehorses.org.uk/images/uffaerial.jpg
                      > >
                      > > I have a photo of the one we created somewhere, if I find it I'll post
                      > > it in the photos section.
                      > >
                      > > The Odd Emperor
                      > >
                      >
                    • John Beatty
                      Actually what it is is convenient. Saying the Army secured a given area puts a patina of authenticity to a claim that can be plausible any way the claim
                      Message 10 of 14 , Dec 18, 2007
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                        Actually what it is is convenient.  Saying "the Army" secured a given area puts a patina of authenticity to a claim that can be plausible any way the claim works, and becomes irrefutable when there is no record of "the Army" ever doing any such thing.  If there really is no evidence, a "cover-up" can be claimed.  If the evidence is ever  iron-clad bullet-proof and undeniable, then "the Army" gets the credit for it.  But since there are few military organizations that can keep anything secret for long, this kind of a claim is mostly made by persons who never wore the uniform.
                         
                        Since there has been, as OE states, no irrefutable evidence of the extraterrestrial origins of crop circles a "cover-up" can be claimed.  Since, further, there have been several demonstrations of just how these displays are made that the ET-wanters can simply dismiss as either lying or deluded, we can also state that these objects are of uncertain origin when we deny that there is or even can be any evidence to the contrary.
                         
                        For those who see ancient (and contemporary) astronauts in large ground designs such as Nazca, perhaps they can also guide us in understanding why so many Medival cathedrals were made in the sign of a cross that can only be seen from altitude centuries before man first took flight.  Were the faithful trying to send messages of welcome that only God could see?  Or perhaps they were looking for ancient Christians from Mars?
                         
                        Either way, you believe what you want to believe, and evidence can do nothing to refute  faith.  It's trying to teach pigs to sing:  They may fool the stone deaf, but the pig just won't join the choir.
                         
                        _________________________________
                        John D. Beatty, Milwaukee Wisconsin
                        AMCIVWAR.COM/AMCIVWAR.NET
                        "History is the only test for the consequences of ideas"


                        ----- Original Message ----
                        From: Odd Emperor <oddempire@...>
                        To: debunkingdebunkers@yahoogroups.com
                        Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2007 5:17:44 AM
                        Subject: [Debunking Debunkers] Re: Crop Circles---Has Anyone Done the Math?

                        I think this is only true if you go into the issue with your mind
                        already made up. If you already believe that some strange force
                        creates crop circles than it becomes easy to manufacture evidence.

                        Was it possible that Colin or someone in "the Army" might have
                        circumvented the test? Security is only as good as the people setting
                        it. "Some guys from the Army" doesn't sound too reliable to me.

                        OE

                        http://oddempire. org/home

                        --- In debunkingdebunkers@ yahoogroups. com, ausiepath9 <no_reply@.. .>
                        wrote:

                        >
                        > HI
                        >
                        > Actually there is one very good recorded case I can think off the top
                        > of my head; by Colin Andrews where himself and the army setup cameras
                        > etc...a crop
                        circle appeared right next to the field where they were
                        > situated and no human could have possibly done that as the area was
                        > secured.
                        >
                        > Go to www.cropcircles. org they make many of them but didnt make the
                        > ones seen here in Tully etc..in the 60's in Australia.
                        > Again that's not entirely correct, we can distinguish between man-made
                        > and others, soil samples prove there is an anomaly not connected to
                        > any human fakery.
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > <oddempire@> wrote:
                        > >
                        > > > I'm sure you'll have you're usual flippant and unconvincing pseudo-
                        > > > rational response, O.E., so by all means go ahead demonstrate your
                        > self-
                        > > > perceived cleverness.
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > >
                        > > OK, I'll bite.. here's some self perceived cleverness (at least you
                        > > got one thing
                        right.)
                        > >
                        > > 1) We cannot rule out that humans are capable of making any crop
                        > > circle no matter how complex. It's impossible to prove otherwise.
                        > >
                        > > 2) There is not a single case where even a scrap of evidence
                        > > suggesting that some non human entity made even one crop circle.
                        > > Please tell me how I'm wrong about this by citing a specific
                        > > instance(s) where any evidence exists suggesting non-terrestrial
                        > > origins of a crop circle. Heck, here's an easier one, find some
                        > > compelling evidence of any visit by extraterrestrials to the Earth.
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > Additionally, I've never been involved with crop circle making but I
                        > > and several of my friends did create a 2/3 scale replica of the
                        > > Uffington horse figure. This project took about eight hours total
                        > > times about 10 people.
                        > > Image of original here
                        > > http://wiltshirewhi tehorses. org.uk/images/ uffaerial. jpg
                        > >
                        > > I have a photo of the one we created somewhere, if I find it I'll post
                        > > it in the photos section.
                        > >
                        > > The Odd Emperor
                        > >
                        >




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                      • James Dawson
                        Ausiepath, It would seem a simple experiment to choose the biggest and most complex crop circle that has yet appeared and have a group of people, perhaps those
                        Message 11 of 14 , Dec 18, 2007
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                          Ausiepath,
                           
                          It would seem a simple experiment to choose the biggest and most complex crop circle that has yet appeared and have a group of people, perhaps those who've claimed to fake many, attempt to reproduce it, at night.
                           
                          Let some people, both "believers" and "skeptics" observe and time them.  If it's successfully done, then doubts that it could be man-made would be eliminated or significantly lessened.
                           
                          You may have seen the glib and insulting response I got from John Beatty (message 6282).  Do you know of any groups similar to this one that isn't plagued people who want to interfere with a discussion among open-minded but critical people about in anomolies/mysteries/unexplained phenomena?  One that's moderated?
                           
                          Why isn't this forum being moderated and people who make it unpleasant banned?  I know you've got to having opposing viewpoints on a discussion forum, but a moderator has to make a judement about when messages go beyond good-faith challenges and become disruptive.
                           
                          Anyway, I've been avoiding this forum for a long time, even though it seemed like a good idea.  Maybe I'll stick around with it, but it'd be nice to find a "critical Fortean" forum with some intelligent discussion of POSSIBLE mysteries---not snarky, simplistic and peurile putdowns.
                           
                          Clyde,
                           
                          Are you still out there?  I looked around and found that DD2 and "rubybaby" had been deleted.  If you no longer have the time or interest to moderate this forum, would you consider turning over moderation to somebody who might?
                           
                          James N. Dawson

                          ausiepath9 <no_reply@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
                          HI

                          Actually there is one very good recorded case I can think off the top
                          of my head; by Colin Andrews where himself and the army setup cameras
                          etc...a crop circle appeared right next to the field where they were
                          situated and no human could have possibly done that as the area was
                          secured.

                          Go to www.cropcircles. org they make many of them but didnt make the
                          ones seen here in Tully etc..in the 60's in Australia.
                          Again that's not entirely correct, we can distinguish between man-made
                          and others, soil samples prove there is an anomaly not connected to
                          any human fakery.

                          <oddempire@. ..> wrote:
                          >
                          > > I'm sure you'll have you're usual flippant and unconvincing pseudo-
                          > > rational response, O.E., so by all means go ahead demonstrate your
                          self-
                          > > perceived cleverness.
                          > >
                          > >
                          >
                          > OK, I'll bite.. here's some self perceived cleverness (at least you
                          > got one thing right.)
                          >
                          > 1) We cannot rule out that humans are capable of making any crop
                          > circle no matter how complex. It's impossible to prove otherwise.
                          >
                          > 2) There is not a single case where even a scrap of evidence
                          > suggesting that some non human entity made even one crop circle.
                          > Please tell me how I'm wrong about this by citing a specific
                          > instance(s) where any evidence exists suggesting non-terrestrial
                          > origins of a crop circle. Heck, here's an easier one, find some
                          > compelling evidence of any visit by extraterrestrials to the Earth.
                          >
                          >
                          > Additionally, I've never been involved with crop circle making but I
                          > and several of my friends did create a 2/3 scale replica of the
                          > Uffington horse figure. This project took about eight hours total
                          > times about 10 people.
                          > Image of original here
                          > http://wiltshirewhi tehorses. org.uk/images/ uffaerial. jpg
                          >
                          > I have a photo of the one we created somewhere, if I find it I'll post
                          > it in the photos section.
                          >
                          > The Odd Emperor
                          >



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                        • John Beatty
                          What you WANT is a forum where everyone agrees with you. What you do NOT want is anyone to simply point out that many mysteries have been manufactured. If
                          Message 12 of 14 , Dec 19, 2007
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                            What you WANT is a forum where everyone agrees with you.  What you do NOT want is anyone to simply point out that many "mysteries" have been manufactured.
                             
                            If pointing out that regardless of evidence you will believe what you choose makes me "glib and insulting" I most humbly apologize to all entities everywhere and in any plane of existance for any percieved insults this imputation of the definintion of faith may have engendered and for anything I may ever say or mean or be interpreted to mean (including the anagramatic insults that are so common these days) at any time in any life I may have ever lived. 
                             
                            But you have not pointed out where I may be wrong, and you have not pointed out where anything I have stated on this or any other forum would be grounds for having me banned.  Simply disagreeing with you shouldn't be enough.  If it is this forum isn't worth anyone's time.    
                             
                            _________________________________
                            John D. Beatty, Milwaukee Wisconsin
                            AMCIVWAR.COM/AMCIVWAR.NET
                            "History is the only test for the consequences of ideas"


                            ----- Original Message ----
                            From: James Dawson <jamesndawson@...>
                            To: debunkingdebunkers@yahoogroups.com
                            Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2007 1:31:44 PM
                            Subject: Re: [Debunking Debunkers] Re: Crop Circles---Has Anyone Done the Math?

                            Ausiepath,
                             
                            It would seem a simple experiment to choose the biggest and most complex crop circle that has yet appeared and have a group of people, perhaps those who've claimed to fake many, attempt to reproduce it, at night.
                             
                            Let some people, both "believers" and "skeptics" observe and time them.  If it's successfully done, then doubts that it could be man-made would be eliminated or significantly lessened.
                             
                            You may have seen the glib and insulting response I got from John Beatty (message 6282).  Do you know of any groups similar to this one that isn't plagued people who want to interfere with a discussion among open-minded but critical people about in anomolies/mysteries /unexplained phenomena?  One that's moderated?
                             
                            Why isn't this forum being moderated and people who make it unpleasant banned?  I know you've got to having opposing viewpoints on a discussion forum, but a moderator has to make a judement about when messages go beyond good-faith challenges and become disruptive.
                             
                            Anyway, I've been avoiding this forum for a long time, even though it seemed like a good idea.  Maybe I'll stick around with it, but it'd be nice to find a "critical Fortean" forum with some intelligent discussion of POSSIBLE mysteries--- not snarky, simplistic and peurile putdowns.
                             
                            Clyde,
                             
                            Are you still out there?  I looked around and found that DD2 and "rubybaby" had been deleted.  If you no longer have the time or interest to moderate this forum, would you consider turning over moderation to somebody who might?
                             
                            James N. Dawson

                            ausiepath9 <no_reply@yahoogroup s.com> wrote:
                            HI

                            Actually there is one very good recorded case I can think off the top
                            of my head; by Colin Andrews where himself and the army setup cameras
                            etc...a crop circle appeared right next to the field where they were
                            situated and no human could have possibly done that as the area was
                            secured.

                            Go to www.cropcircles. org they make many of them but didnt make the
                            ones seen here in Tully etc..in the 60's in Australia.
                            Again that's not entirely correct, we can distinguish between man-made
                            and others, soil samples prove there is an anomaly not connected to
                            any human fakery.

                            <oddempire@. ..> wrote:
                            >
                            > > I'm sure you'll have you're usual flippant and unconvincing pseudo-
                            > > rational response, O.E., so by all means go ahead demonstrate your
                            self-
                            > > perceived cleverness.
                            > >
                            > >
                            >
                            > OK, I'll bite.. here's some self perceived cleverness (at least you
                            > got one thing right.)
                            >
                            > 1) We cannot rule out that humans are capable of making any crop
                            > circle no matter how complex. It's impossible to prove otherwise.
                            >
                            > 2) There is not a single case where even a scrap of evidence
                            > suggesting that some non human entity made even one crop circle.
                            > Please tell me how I'm wrong about this by citing a specific
                            > instance(s) where any evidence exists suggesting non-terrestrial
                            > origins of a crop circle. Heck, here's an easier one, find some
                            > compelling evidence of any visit by extraterrestrials to the Earth.
                            >
                            >
                            > Additionally, I've never been involved with crop circle making but I
                            > and several of my friends did create a 2/3 scale replica of the
                            > Uffington horse figure. This project took about eight hours total
                            > times about 10 people.
                            > Image of original here
                            > http://wiltshirewhi tehorses. org.uk/images/ uffaerial. jpg
                            >
                            > I have a photo of the one we created somewhere, if I find it I'll post
                            > it in the photos section.
                            >
                            > The Odd Emperor
                            >



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                          • James Dawson
                            John, Every group has a certain purpose, philosophy and focus. That s why they re moderated. My understanding of the purpose of this group was for likeminded
                            Message 13 of 14 , Dec 19, 2007
                            • 0 Attachment
                              John,
                               
                              Every group has a certain purpose, philosophy and focus.  That's why they're moderated.
                               
                              My understanding of the purpose of this group was for likeminded people to "debunk" debunkers, or skeptics, if you prefer.  It was meant for those of us who see some or many things as unexplained, to discuss these things among ourselves.  I'm sure we'll have many disagreements, but agree more on fundamentals than we do with you.  Maybe there are other groups specifically formed for "believers", "undecideds" and "skeptics" to debate, but from what I understood from it's "mission statement", this forum isn't one of them.
                               
                              I don't believe in a lot of things, but I don't feel the need to join a group of people who does believe in them and badger and hector them about it.  My God, I don't know whether to laugh, cry or stare dumbfounded by how obsessive and angry you are about our "irrational" beliefs!
                               
                              Okay, maybe we're "irrational" and "unscientific.  You've told us all that very bitterly and tersely a million times.  You've thoroughly trounced us!  Can't you leave us to our "delusions".  Maybe they make us happy!
                               
                              Anyway, John, and Odd Emperor, if I do stay on this sad, hilarious forum for any length of time, I won't be responding to any of your comments.   I'm not mad.  I just don't have time to rehash irreconciliable differences.
                               
                              Hope you find some willing sparring partners or people to "put in their place" and have fun doing it.
                               
                              James
                               

                              John Beatty <jdbeatty.geo@...> wrote:
                              What you WANT is a forum where everyone agrees with you.  What you do NOT want is anyone to simply point out that many "mysteries" have been manufactured.
                               
                              If pointing out that regardless of evidence you will believe what you choose makes me "glib and insulting" I most humbly apologize to all entities everywhere and in any plane of existance for any percieved insults this imputation of the definintion of faith may have engendered and for anything I may ever say or mean or be interpreted to mean (including the anagramatic insults that are so common these days) at any time in any life I may have ever lived. 
                               
                              But you have not pointed out where I may be wrong, and you have not pointed out where anything I have stated on this or any other forum would be grounds for having me banned.  Simply disagreeing with you shouldn't be enough.  If it is this forum isn't worth anyone's time.    
                               
                              ____________ _________ _________ ___
                              John D. Beatty, Milwaukee Wisconsin
                              AMCIVWAR.COM/ AMCIVWAR. NET
                              "History is the only test for the consequences of ideas"


                              ----- Original Message ----
                              From: James Dawson <jamesndawson@ yahoo.com>
                              To: debunkingdebunkers@ yahoogroups. com
                              Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2007 1:31:44 PM
                              Subject: Re: [Debunking Debunkers] Re: Crop Circles---Has Anyone Done the Math?

                              Ausiepath,
                               
                              It would seem a simple experiment to choose the biggest and most complex crop circle that has yet appeared and have a group of people, perhaps those who've claimed to fake many, attempt to reproduce it, at night.
                               
                              Let some people, both "believers" and "skeptics" observe and time them.  If it's successfully done, then doubts that it could be man-made would be eliminated or significantly lessened.
                               
                              You may have seen the glib and insulting response I got from John Beatty (message 6282).  Do you know of any groups similar to this one that isn't plagued people who want to interfere with a discussion among open-minded but critical people about in anomolies/mysteries /unexplained phenomena?  One that's moderated?
                               
                              Why isn't this forum being moderated and people who make it unpleasant banned?  I know you've got to having opposing viewpoints on a discussion forum, but a moderator has to make a judement about when messages go beyond good-faith challenges and become disruptive.
                               
                              Anyway, I've been avoiding this forum for a long time, even though it seemed like a good idea.  Maybe I'll stick around with it, but it'd be nice to find a "critical Fortean" forum with some intelligent discussion of POSSIBLE mysteries--- not snarky, simplistic and peurile putdowns.
                               
                              Clyde,
                               
                              Are you still out there?  I looked around and found that DD2 and "rubybaby" had been deleted.  If you no longer have the time or interest to moderate this forum, would you consider turning over moderation to somebody who might?
                               
                              James N. Dawson

                              ausiepath9 <no_reply@yahoogroup s.com> wrote:
                              HI

                              Actually there is one very good recorded case I can think off the top
                              of my head; by Colin Andrews where himself and the army setup cameras
                              etc...a crop circle appeared right next to the field where they were
                              situated and no human could have possibly done that as the area was
                              secured.

                              Go to www.cropcircles. org they make many of them but didnt make the
                              ones seen here in Tully etc..in the 60's in Australia.
                              Again that's not entirely correct, we can distinguish between man-made
                              and others, soil samples prove there is an anomaly not connected to
                              any human fakery.

                              <oddempire@. ..> wrote:
                              >
                              > > I'm sure you'll have you're usual flippant and unconvincing pseudo-
                              > > rational response, O.E., so by all means go ahead demonstrate your
                              self-
                              > > perceived cleverness.
                              > >
                              > >
                              >
                              > OK, I'll bite.. here's some self perceived cleverness (at least you
                              > got one thing right.)
                              >
                              > 1) We cannot rule out that humans are capable of making any crop
                              > circle no matter how complex. It's impossible to prove otherwise.
                              >
                              > 2) There is not a single case where even a scrap of evidence
                              > suggesting that some non human entity made even one crop circle.
                              > Please tell me how I'm wrong about this by citing a specific
                              > instance(s) where any evidence exists suggesting non-terrestrial
                              > origins of a crop circle. Heck, here's an easier one, find some
                              > compelling evidence of any visit by extraterrestrials to the Earth.
                              >
                              >
                              > Additionally, I've never been involved with crop circle making but I
                              > and several of my friends did create a 2/3 scale replica of the
                              > Uffington horse figure. This project took about eight hours total
                              > times about 10 people.
                              > Image of original here
                              > http://wiltshirewhi tehorses. org.uk/images/ uffaerial. jpg
                              >
                              > I have a photo of the one we created somewhere, if I find it I'll post
                              > it in the photos section.
                              >
                              > The Odd Emperor
                              >



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                            • John Beatty
                              I don t participate in Greek choruses of backslapping followers who never question the basis for their beliefs. Sorry to disappoint you, but this is an open
                              Message 14 of 14 , Dec 20, 2007
                              • 0 Attachment

                                I don't participate in  Greek choruses of backslapping followers who never question the basis for their beliefs.  Sorry to disappoint you, but this is an open and free forum for discussion. 

                                 

                                Since this is the first traffic I've seen here for nearly a year I hardly would think you would have been badgered out of it.  You are entirely free to participate or not.


                                 
                                _________________________________
                                John D. Beatty, Milwaukee Wisconsin
                                AMCIVWAR.COM/AMCIVWAR.NET
                                "History is the only test for the consequences of ideas"


                                ----- Original Message ----
                                From: James Dawson <jamesndawson@...>
                                To: debunkingdebunkers@yahoogroups.com
                                Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2007 2:33:28 PM
                                Subject: Re: [Debunking Debunkers] Re: Crop Circles---Has Anyone Done the Math?

                                John,
                                 
                                Every group has a certain purpose, philosophy and focus.  That's why they're moderated.
                                 
                                My understanding of the purpose of this group was for likeminded people to "debunk" debunkers, or skeptics, if you prefer.  It was meant for those of us who see some or many things as unexplained, to discuss these things among ourselves.  I'm sure we'll have many disagreements, but agree more on fundamentals than we do with you.  Maybe there are other groups specifically formed for "believers", "undecideds" and "skeptics" to debate, but from what I understood from it's "mission statement", this forum isn't one of them.
                                 
                                I don't believe in a lot of things, but I don't feel the need to join a group of people who does believe in them and badger and hector them about it.  My God, I don't know whether to laugh, cry or stare dumbfounded by how obsessive and angry you are about our "irrational" beliefs!
                                 
                                Okay, maybe we're "irrational" and "unscientific.  You've told us all that very bitterly and tersely a million times.  You've thoroughly trounced us!  Can't you leave us to our "delusions".  Maybe they make us happy!
                                 
                                Anyway, John, and Odd Emperor, if I do stay on this sad, hilarious forum for any length of time, I won't be responding to any of your comments.   I'm not mad.  I just don't have time to rehash irreconciliable differences.
                                 
                                Hope you find some willing sparring partners or people to "put in their place" and have fun doing it.
                                 
                                James
                                 

                                John Beatty <jdbeatty.geo@ yahoo.com> wrote:
                                What you WANT is a forum where everyone agrees with you.  What you do NOT want is anyone to simply point out that many "mysteries" have been manufactured.
                                 
                                If pointing out that regardless of evidence you will believe what you choose makes me "glib and insulting" I most humbly apologize to all entities everywhere and in any plane of existance for any percieved insults this imputation of the definintion of faith may have engendered and for anything I may ever say or mean or be interpreted to mean (including the anagramatic insults that are so common these days) at any time in any life I may have ever lived. 
                                 
                                But you have not pointed out where I may be wrong, and you have not pointed out where anything I have stated on this or any other forum would be grounds for having me banned.  Simply disagreeing with you shouldn't be enough.  If it is this forum isn't worth anyone's time.    
                                 
                                ____________ _________ _________ ___
                                John D. Beatty, Milwaukee Wisconsin
                                AMCIVWAR.COM/ AMCIVWAR. NET
                                "History is the only test for the consequences of ideas"


                                ----- Original Message ----
                                From: James Dawson <jamesndawson@ yahoo.com>
                                To: debunkingdebunkers@ yahoogroups. com
                                Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2007 1:31:44 PM
                                Subject: Re: [Debunking Debunkers] Re: Crop Circles---Has Anyone Done the Math?

                                Ausiepath,
                                 
                                It would seem a simple experiment to choose the biggest and most complex crop circle that has yet appeared and have a group of people, perhaps those who've claimed to fake many, attempt to reproduce it, at night.
                                 
                                Let some people, both "believers" and "skeptics" observe and time them.  If it's successfully done, then doubts that it could be man-made would be eliminated or significantly lessened.
                                 
                                You may have seen the glib and insulting response I got from John Beatty (message 6282).  Do you know of any groups similar to this one that isn't plagued people who want to interfere with a discussion among open-minded but critical people about in anomolies/mysteries /unexplained phenomena?  One that's moderated?
                                 
                                Why isn't this forum being moderated and people who make it unpleasant banned?  I know you've got to having opposing viewpoints on a discussion forum, but a moderator has to make a judement about when messages go beyond good-faith challenges and become disruptive.
                                 
                                Anyway, I've been avoiding this forum for a long time, even though it seemed like a good idea.  Maybe I'll stick around with it, but it'd be nice to find a "critical Fortean" forum with some intelligent discussion of POSSIBLE mysteries--- not snarky, simplistic and peurile putdowns.
                                 
                                Clyde,
                                 
                                Are you still out there?  I looked around and found that DD2 and "rubybaby" had been deleted.  If you no longer have the time or interest to moderate this forum, would you consider turning over moderation to somebody who might?
                                 
                                James N. Dawson

                                ausiepath9 <no_reply@yahoogroup s.com> wrote:
                                HI

                                Actually there is one very good recorded case I can think off the top
                                of my head; by Colin Andrews where himself and the army setup cameras
                                etc...a crop circle appeared right next to the field where they were
                                situated and no human could have possibly done that as the area was
                                secured.

                                Go to www.cropcircles. org they make many of them but didnt make the
                                ones seen here in Tully etc..in the 60's in Australia.
                                Again that's not entirely correct, we can distinguish between man-made
                                and others, soil samples prove there is an anomaly not connected to
                                any human fakery.

                                <oddempire@. ..> wrote:
                                >
                                > > I'm sure you'll have you're usual flippant and unconvincing pseudo-
                                > > rational response, O.E., so by all means go ahead demonstrate your
                                self-
                                > > perceived cleverness.
                                > >
                                > >
                                >
                                > OK, I'll bite.. here's some self perceived cleverness (at least you
                                > got one thing right.)
                                >
                                > 1) We cannot rule out that humans are capable of making any crop
                                > circle no matter how complex. It's impossible to prove otherwise.
                                >
                                > 2) There is not a single case where even a scrap of evidence
                                > suggesting that some non human entity made even one crop circle.
                                > Please tell me how I'm wrong about this by citing a specific
                                > instance(s) where any evidence exists suggesting non-terrestrial
                                > origins of a crop circle. Heck, here's an easier one, find some
                                > compelling evidence of any visit by extraterrestrials to the Earth.
                                >
                                >
                                > Additionally, I've never been involved with crop circle making but I
                                > and several of my friends did create a 2/3 scale replica of the
                                > Uffington horse figure. This project took about eight hours total
                                > times about 10 people.
                                > Image of original here
                                > http://wiltshirewhi tehorses. org.uk/images/ uffaerial. jpg
                                >
                                > I have a photo of the one we created somewhere, if I find it I'll post
                                > it in the photos section.
                                >
                                > The Odd Emperor
                                >



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