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[Debunking Debunkers] Re:Re: Re: Alien Disclosure For The Holidays

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  • James N. Dawson
    John: The issue is whether government has the power and ABILITY to CLAIM whatever objects, artefacts, etc. they CHOOSE to, of ANY event or occurrence, whether
    Message 1 of 19 , Dec 7, 2005
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      John:

      The issue is whether government has the power and ABILITY to CLAIM
      whatever objects, artefacts, etc. they CHOOSE to, of ANY event or
      occurrence, whether it's an alleged alien space craft, bullet from an
      assasination, etc., etc. Whether it's in the name of preserving a
      crime scene, national security, or just brute force and intimidation,
      I fail to see why it can't.

      That doesn't resolve the philosophical question of the
      unfalsifiability of the claim UFO believers (no pejorative intended)
      have: "The evidence was/is there but the government confiscated
      it". But I fail to see why that claim isn't plausible.

      A certain podiatrist, whose name I forget at the moment, claims to
      have extracted bits of metal from people that have very anomolous
      properties. Is it all hype? How would I know? I'm not qualified to
      say. Who am I to question his knowledge and expertise, or to judge
      whether a CSICOPist has validly done so. If you and others don't
      think this evidence is credible, the ball is in your court to say why.

      Bruce Macabbee, Stanton Friedman, and plenty of others I can't recall
      at the moment are physicists or trained in advanced technological
      analysis have examined footage of alleged UFO's and claim the
      analysis proves (or maybe just highly suggests) many films and
      videotapes of UFO's are not fake. Who am I to dispute them? But
      those who do dispute them, as least as far as I've read, listened to
      radio, or watched on TV, have done little that convinced me that
      Macabee, et al's reasoning or conclusions about the evidence is
      flawed.

      I have a high degree of agnosticism about the matter. But I don't
      understand the rush to dismiss it all as fantasy as do
      the "conventionalists" (I'd like to avoid pejoratives like "debunker,
      scoftic, etc., but I can't concede that you're a "skeptic", because
      it appears to me your very selective in your skepticism. I consider
      myself a skeptic, both to the over-interpreters in the UFO-believer
      community and the dismissers and shoddy-explainers-away like Randi,
      Nichols, and CSICOP.

      With all I've read, there's just enough for me that rings true that
      something anomolous is going on. People do misinterpret and mis-
      remember, but not to the degree the CSICOPist and similar types claim.

      James N. Dawson

      (Here I am again, spending time on a subject I really don't have the
      time to!)


      --- In debunkingdebunkers@yahoogroups.com, John Beatty
      <jdbeatty.geo@y...> wrote:
      >
      > >A law enforcement officer accused of pilfering debris
      > from space shuttle Columbia has been charged with
      > stealing government property.
      >
      > Very good. NOTHING to do with "advanced alien
      > technology," however. You DO recognize that?
      >
      > Very clearly, "stealing government property" is NOT
      > the same as "posessing advanced alien technology."
      > Are you clear on the distinction? If not, I'm certain
      > any first year law student can make it crystal clear.
      >
      > > As I said, the govt. would claim that what crashed
      > > was their military craft
      > > and you would be prosecuted if you took pieces.
      >
      > When has this ever happened? Are you now claiming
      > that the shuttle was actually a crashed alien craft?
      >
      > >They
      > > already did this with the government of South Africa
      > and forced them to turn over an alien craft that had
      > crashed there,
      >
      > When did the US government violate South African
      > soveregnty and recover unknown artifacts from a
      > freindly power? Using what law, court or other means
      > of coercion? How did they hide all this from the mass
      > media?
      >
      > > ...even though the bodies were
      > > obviously alien.
      >
      > And your proof for this is...?
      >
      > >They even made
      > > the S. Africans fly it on one of their military
      > > cargo planes to the US because
      > > the S. African Air Force had shot it down.
      >
      > How "advanced" would this spaceship be if it was shot
      > down by a third-rate air force? Why would they shoot
      > it down? How was it established that the artifact
      > was "alien?"
      >
      > Now, what else have you got? Where's the former
      > members of the collection teams? What law prevents
      > you from keeping "alien" materials that the government
      > does not know about? Or are you saying that "they"
      > know where the ALL are?
      >
      > Need you to think about this real hard: Knowing what
      > a sieve the government is, how and WHY would they keep
      > all this "alien" activity a secret for so long?
      >
      > _________________________________
      > John D. Beatty, Milwaukee Wisconsin
      > AMCIVWAR.COM/AMCIVWAR.NET
      > "History is the only test for the consequences of ideas"
      >
      >
      >
      > __________________________________________
      > Yahoo! DSL – Something to write home about.
      > Just $16.99/mo. or less.
      > dsl.yahoo.com
      >
    • antigray@cs.com
      In a message dated 12/8/2005 5:53:28 AM Eastern Standard Time, ... ==================================== www.textfiles.com/ufo/ossette.ufo SPEECH FOR OSSETTE
      Message 2 of 19 , Dec 8, 2005
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        In a message dated 12/8/2005 5:53:28 AM Eastern Standard Time, debunkingdebunkers@yahoogroups.com writes:

        Message: 1        
           Date: Wed, 7 Dec 2005 04:31:13 -0800 (PST)
           From: John Beatty <jdbeatty.geo@...>
        Subject: Re: Re:Re: Re: Alien Disclosure For The Holidays

        >A law enforcement officer accused of pilfering debris
        from space shuttle Columbia has been charged with
        stealing government property.

        Very good.  NOTHING to do with "advanced alien
        technology," however.  You DO recognize that? 

        Very clearly, "stealing government property" is NOT
        the same as "posessing advanced alien technology."
        Are you clear on the distinction?  If not, I'm certain
        any first year law student can make it crystal clear.

        >As I said, the govt. would claim that what crashed
        >was their military craft
        >and you would be prosecuted if you took pieces.

        When has this ever happened?  Are you now claiming
        that the shuttle was actually a crashed alien craft?

        >They
        >already did this with the government of South Africa
        and forced them to turn over an alien craft that had
        crashed there,

        When did the US government violate South African
        soveregnty and recover unknown artifacts from a
        freindly power?  Using what law, court or other means
        of coercion?  How did they hide all this from the mass
        media?

        >...even though the bodies were
        >obviously alien.

        And your proof for this is...?

        >They even made
        >the S. Africans fly it on one of their military
        >cargo planes to the US because
        >the S. African Air Force had shot it down.

        How "advanced" would this spaceship be if it was shot
        down by a third-rate air force? Why would they shoot
        it down?   How was it established that the artifact
        was "alien?" 

        Now, what else have you got?  Where's the former
        members of the collection teams?  What law prevents
        you from keeping "alien" materials that the government
        does not know about?  Or are you saying that "they"
        know where the ALL are?

        Need you to think about this real hard:  Knowing what
        a sieve the government is, how and WHY would they keep
        all this "alien" activity a secret for so long?

        ====================================

        www.textfiles.com/ufo/ossette.ufo
        SPEECH FOR OSSETTE CONFERENCE SEPTEMBER, 1989. ---------------------------------------------- Start speech with the quotes from the MOD re UFO not coming under the Official Secrets Act. Then quote the American document. (Slide 1) The fact that we are such close allies. Also if UFO don't come under the Official Secrets Act why is it that so many are retained under the 30 year rule. I am Tony Dodd and my friend is Dr. Henry Azadehdel. Both Dr. Henry and myself were originally geared to speak about our own particular experiences in the UFO field, but due to information which came to us several weeks ago in relation to an alleged crashed UFO in South Africa, we have spent a considerable amount of time engaged in an in depth investigation into the information received. Due to the complex nature of the investigation both Dr. Henry and myself will take turns to speak and will hopefully give you a picture of the sequence of events as they occurred. You will be shown slides of certain documents which were passed to us and also of the person who passed the information. Unfortunately it has been necessary to blank out certain names and places but this has been done to protect the identity of our informant who is no longer in this country. He stated that he is a South African Air Force Intelligence Officer and would be charged with Treason in his own country should his identity be revealed. I have been corresponding with this man for a long time but was not aware of his Intelligence Connections until the last few weeks. At this stage I would point out as stated previously, that certain omissions have been made in the talk we are about to give. It is of the utmost importance that our sources of information are totally protected for their own safety. By protecting informants in this way we hope that other Intelligence sources will come forward and eventually the full picture of what is going on will emerge. If when we have finished giving details of this incident there is time we will be happy to answer questions but we reserve the right not to answer if we feel that our continuing enquiries or source of information would be compromised. ************************************ *** *** *** END OF PAGE 1 *** *** *** ************************************ During the first week in July I received correspondence from Mr. which stated that a UFO had crashed in the Kalahari Desert and ha been recovered by a team of South African Military personnel to secret Air Force base. He also informed me that two live alien entities had been found in the craft. The information also stated that a group of American Military personnel had arrived and had taken over the investigation. He stated that he would forward a copy of the Official South African Top Secret document to me but would send i later in a letter which would not contain any details of the sender in case the letter was intercepted. (Slide 2) A week later I received the document which consisted of five pages and was headed with the South African Air Force crest. Every page of the document was marked Top Secret. (Slide 3) The story told by the document was as follows: (Slide 4, 5, 6, 7, 8. At 1.45 pm on the 7th. May 1989 a Naval Frigate of the South African navy was at sea when it contacted Naval Headquarters to report an unidentified flying object on their radar scope, heading towards the South African continent in a North Westerly direction at a calculated speed of 5746 nautical miles per hour. This message was acknowledged and confirmed that the object was also being tracked by airborne radar and military ground radar installations. The object entered South African air space at 1.52 PM and at this time radio contact was attempted but to no avail. As a result two Mirage jet fighters were scrambled on an intercept course. At 1.59pm. Squadron leader ------- the pilot of one of the Mirage fighters stated over the intercom that they had radar and visual confirmation of the craft. The order was given to arm and fire the Thor 2 experimental laser canon. This was done. (Thor 2 is a Top Secret experimental beam weapon) The Squadron Leader reported several blinding flashes emanating from the object which had started wavering and it started to decrease speed and altitude at the rate of 3000 feet per minute. It eventually crashed at a 25 degree angle into the dessert in Botswana A recovery team was dispatched to the crash site where it was found that the UFO was embedded in the side of a large crater in the sand. The sand in the vicinity of the object was fused together due to the intense heat. One telescopic leg protruded from the side of the craft as if caused by the impact. Large recovery helicopters were flown to the site and the first one reaching the scene overflew the object at a height of 500 feet and immediately stalled and crashed. Five crew members were killed. It was found that vehicles approaching the object also developed engine trouble due to an intense electro magnetic field coming from the object. ************************************ *** *** *** END OF PAGE 2 *** *** *** ************************************ Eventually a paint like compound was received at the site and painted on the object which appeared to neutralize the magnetic field. The object was eventually conveyed to an Air Force Base and was taken to the sixth level underground. At this time it was totally intact. Whilst this was going on the American Team from Wright Patterson AFB arrived. Whilst the recovery team and scientists were mulling over the object their attention was suddenly attracted to a noise from the side of the craft. They noticed that an opening had appeared in the side. It was doorway but had only opened to a small gap. Attempts were made to open the door but without success so hydraulic pressure gear was used to force the door open. As soon as the door opened two small alien entities staggered out an were immediately arrested by security personnel present. A makeshift medical holding area was set up. One of the entities appeared to be seriously injured but doctors withdrew when one of them was attacked by one of the aliens. The attacked doctor received severe deep scratches to the face and chest from the claws of the alien. (Slide 8) Arrangements were made for the UFO and the aliens to be transported to Wright Patterson AFB, Dayton Ohio; USA As a result of this information a person who will remain unnamed telephoned the South African AFB where the Mirage Fighters had been scrambled. This man was a Private Investigator in America for many years and therefore well versed in speaking American. He asked to be connected to Squadron Leader XXXXXXXXXX the conversation went as follows: Is that Squadron Leader XXXXXXXXXXXXX REPLY Yes. QUESTION. This is General Brunel speaking from Wright Patterson. I have the document in front of me code named XXXXXXX REPLY. Yes. QUESTION. I am confused, this document does not say how many times you fired at the object. REPLY. Who did you say you were sir QUESTION. General Brunel, surely Squadron Leader it's a straight forward question, how many times did you fire at the darn thing. ************************************ *** *** *** END OF PAGE 3 *** *** *** ************************************ REPLY. I fired once sir, could you hang on so that I can go to safe phone. QUESTION. That won't be necessary Squadron Leader, you have told m what I wanted to know goodbye. --------------------------------- In the meantime military personnel were contacted in America to try to find out what was happening at Wright Pattterson AFB. REPLY. Can't get any information about arrival of UFO but established that Wright Patterson was put on Red Alert on 23rd. June, 1989. (This is the day the UFO was proported to be shipped to Wright Patterson.) ------------------------------------------------------------------ On July 31st. this year our informant arrived in this country and by prior arrangement took up temporary residence with Dr. Henry. He informed us that he was on route to Wright Patterson AFB on a military mission and would depart on the 6th. August. He contacted the South African Embassy from Dr. Henry's home to let them know where he was staying in case they needed to contact him. He later made a sworn statement to us confirming his story. (Slide 9) He had photographs taken with us (Slide 10. 11. 12.) We were informed that various hieroglyphics were found inside the craft and stated that the military had been unable to decipher them. (Slide 15) Dr. Will talk about this. He also did a drawing of the interior of the craft and the general layout. He also showed us and permitted us to photograph two NASA passes which were for his use at Wright Patterson AFB At this time we made contact with a second intelligence officer in South Africa who spoke to Dr. Henry personally. This officer told us that he had seen and had access to a series of black and white photographs of the captured aliens and their craft and a 50 page telex message from Wright Patterson AFB relating to the recovery of the UFO He stressed how dangerous it would be to get the papers but stated that he would forward a set of the black and white photographs and a copy of the telex as soon as he was able. One of the named American personnel who was present at the retrieval was later spoken to at Wright Patterson AFB by Dr Henry at the OSI department. (Henry Will speak about this) ************************************ *** *** *** END OF PAGE 4 *** *** *** ************************************ Within 24 hours our informant staying with Dr. Henry received a telephone call from the head of South African Intelligence informing him that the mission was cancelled and telling him to report back to Military Headquarters Pretoria forthwith where he would face a Court Martial. I will now hand over to Dr. Henry who will tell you of the series of events which took place at his home and of the various telephone calls which were made and received in the next few days. I NOW HAND OVER TO DR HENRY WHO WILL TELL YOU OF TELEPHONE CONVERSATIONS MADE BOTH TO AND FROM HIS HOME BY INTELLIGENCE SOURCE CONNECTED WITH OUR INFORMANT. INCLUDING A CONVERSATION WITH AN INTELLIGENCE OFFICER IN SOUTH AFRICA WORKING IN THE TOP SECRET DOCUMENTS AREA. ************************************ *** *** *** END OF PAGE 5 *** *** *** ************************************ ________________ | | | picture of | | winged bird | | crest | |______________| S O U T H A F R I C A N A I R F O R C E THIS FILE HAS BEEN CLASSIFIED BY D.A.F.I. INFORMATION NOT TO BE DIVULGED - TOP SECRET ************************************ *** *** *** END OF PAGE 6 *** *** *** ************************************ This page has a star and the bird crest at the top The page appears to be a cover/abstract page A PCX file (graphic) of this page is available in the UFONET I file library. Hopefully a GIF version of the file will be available shortly. ************************************ *** *** *** END OF PAGE 7 *** *** *** ************************************ ************************************ *** *** *** 14 Pages of Material follow *** *** but we are unable to convert *** *** via OCR due to inter mixed *** *** handwriting on the pages *** *** *** ************************************ The transcript of my telephone Conversation with the Chief of Military Intelligence in South Africa, Aug. 1989 ------------------------------------------------------------- Henry: H General: X H: Mr. X X: Yah. H: Hello, I am calling from Hawaii X: Yes... H: I would like to ask you about this UFO crash in Kalahari. X: You what? H: A UFO crash in Kalahari dessert. (Talking rather loud) X: I can't hear you very well, just say it again. H: A UFO crash in Kalahari desert, May 1989. X: May 89 ( Thinking about my above comments). B: Yes. X: Who is speaking? H: This is Jonnathan speaking from Hawaii. X: What is your surname? H: Jonnathan Smith. X: (He repeats my name, giving the impression of writing it down)'O.K., so WHAT DO YOU WANT TO KNOW? H: I want to know where did it go eventually? X: I can't hear you. H: Where did it go eventually? Did it go to Wright Paterson, or you kept it in South Africa after it crashed. X: WHY DO YOU WANT TO KNOW? H: Well. I've been investigating UFOS for 20 yoars. X: I think you...you are talking to wrong person, whore did you get my number? H: Well, we have contacts to get numbers everywhere. X: I CAN NOT GIVE YOU THAT INFORMATION: I'VE NOT GOT IT. H: It crashed in May 89, and was shippad to Wright Paterson in June, am I correct X: (stammering) No....n....no, I am not sure, I don't thinkyou have got the RIGHT information, whera did you get that? H: Well, information comes to us from all over thr world. X: What kind of crash was it? (Remember I had alraady told him) H: It was an Unidentified Flying Object. X: In the Kalahari? H: Yes. X: 19...? H: 1989, Botswanna. X: Ah...Ah..h..., No, I haven't got that information. I think perhaps it is a rumour. H: I think I would be very much surprised if it was a rumour. ************************************ *** *** *** END OF PAGE 22 *** *** *** ************************************ ******* X: (Now trying to meddle the subject) So, What are you saying? You are sitting in Hawaii and you got that information. Where did you get that?? H: As I said, we are operating a UFO network. X: Well...Ah...well, I can not give you ANY FURTHER INFORMATION, I do not know anything about it. --------------------------------------------------------------------- ************************************ *** *** *** END OF PAGE 23 *** *** *** ************************************ ************************************ *** *** *** 3 Pages of Material follow *** *** but we are unable to convert *** *** via OCR due to inter mixed *** *** handwriting on the pages *** *** *** ************************************ These 3 pages consist of a transcript of the telephone conversation between Dr. Henry Azadehdel and Mr. L at Wright Patterson September 15,1989.
        ===================================

        From: samilitaryhistory.org/research.html

        From: Paul Carolus
        e-mail: ashwinc@...
        Subject: UFO shot down in SWA
        Date posted: 13 May 2002 I have heard about an incident that happened in SWA, where a UFO was shot down by a South African pilot. I would like to include this happening in a book that I am writing,and would appreciate it if anyone with any knowledge on the subject who was on active duty in SWA in the 1970s and 1980s,could mail me.
      • John Beatty
        OK, more hearsay over hearsay, with no attributable sources. Got anything original? Got any ideas as to why this is being kept so secret? Got any real answers
        Message 3 of 19 , Dec 11, 2005
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          OK, more hearsay over hearsay, with no attributable
          sources.

          Got anything original?

          Got any ideas as to why this is being kept so secret?
          Got any real answers for any other questions?

          Come back when you can provide something like real
          answers, not just something someone made up and cannot
          verify.

          By the way, South Africa's frigates didn't join the
          fleet until 1996. Between 1971 and 1996 the largest
          vessels they possessed were missile patrol boats.


          _________________________________
          John D. Beatty, Milwaukee Wisconsin
          AMCIVWAR.COM/AMCIVWAR.NET
          "History is the only test for the consequences of ideas"

          __________________________________________________
          Do You Yahoo!?
          Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
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        • odd_empire
          I think you may be wasting your time with this guy. He did the same thing over on JREF. Every time someone asked him a question he pasted a bunch of tripe.
          Message 4 of 19 , Dec 12, 2005
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            I think you may be wasting your time with this guy. He did the same
            thing over on JREF. Every time someone asked him a question he pasted
            a bunch of tripe. Then acted indignant that people refused to sit
            around for day s and analyze his piles of junk. No matter how many
            layers you peel from this stuff it just gets deeper and sillier.

            Did you see the place he got that text-wad? There's a lifetime of
            silly crap in there!

            www.textfiles.com/ufo

            The Odd Emperor
            http://www.oddempire.org



            --- In debunkingdebunkers@yahoogroups.com, John Beatty
            <jdbeatty.geo@y...> wrote:
            >
            > OK, more hearsay over hearsay, with no attributable
            > sources.
            >
            > Got anything original?
            >
            > Got any ideas as to why this is being kept so secret?
            > Got any real answers for any other questions?
            >
            > Come back when you can provide something like real
            > answers, not just something someone made up and cannot
            > verify.
            >
            > By the way, South Africa's frigates didn't join the
            > fleet until 1996. Between 1971 and 1996 the largest
            > vessels they possessed were missile patrol boats.
            >
            >
            > _________________________________
            > John D. Beatty, Milwaukee Wisconsin
            > AMCIVWAR.COM/AMCIVWAR.NET
            > "History is the only test for the consequences of ideas"
            >
            > __________________________________________________
            > Do You Yahoo!?
            > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
            > http://mail.yahoo.com
            >
          • antigray@cs.com
            In a message dated 12/13/2005 6:30:07 AM Eastern Standard Time, ... Hi Odd, If you had read what I posted at jref you would know that I was posting the proof
            Message 5 of 19 , Dec 13, 2005
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              In a message dated 12/13/2005 6:30:07 AM Eastern Standard Time, debunkingdebunkers@yahoogroups.com writes:
              Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2005 21:56:10 -0000
                 From: odd_empire
              Subject: Re: Re:Re: Re: Alien Disclosure For The Holidays

              I think you may be wasting your time with this guy. He did the same
              thing over on JREF. Every time someone asked him a question he pasted
              a bunch of tripe. Then acted indignant that people refused to sit
              around for day s and analyze his piles of junk. No matter how many
              layers you peel from this stuff it just gets deeper and sillier. 

              Did you see the place he got that text-wad? There's a lifetime of
              silly crap in there!

              www.textfiles.com/ufo

              The Odd Emperor
              http://www.oddempire.org


              Hi Odd,
              If you had read what I posted at jref you would know that I was posting the proof that the members there were asking for. From my experience at jref I came to the conclusion that some people there were close-minded and did not want to read the truth (so they did not read my posts), others were unable to read more than a few sentences due to acute attention span disorders (they would say give only short answers, they couldn't handle long ones), and others that had reading comprehension problems. They would read what I wrote and say, "How could "X and Y" be true be true as you say?" I had been really referring to "A and B" but they either were not able to grasp the subject, or wanted to be able to shoot holes in it by pretending I had said something else.
                Many of the subjects in the articles, and persons that are on that "text file" site list, I have debunked myself. I have never used any text from that site. I never saw it before till you posted the URL. Once again you have suffered the shame of premature evaluation.  LOL
              Art 
            • odd_empire
              ... Hey Art! ... posting the ... jref I came ... not want ... That s extremely prejudicial. You never really discussed anything at JREF. As I recall, all you
              Message 6 of 19 , Dec 13, 2005
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                > Hi Odd,

                Hey Art!

                > If you had read what I posted at jref you would know that I was
                posting the
                > proof that the members there were asking for. From my experience at
                jref I came
                > to the conclusion that some people there were close-minded and did
                not want
                > to read the truth


                That's extremely prejudicial. You never really discussed anything at
                JREF. As I recall, all you did was (as I already mentioned) post wads
                and wads of text files you got from god knows where and pleaded with
                people to purchase your book. People at JREF are not interested in
                some self-proclaimed "proof." They want to discuss evidence and
                listen to opinions. You can't go in there saying "this is a fact"
                without some evidence to back you up. Those people would eat you for
                lunch and as a matter of fact, they did!

                (so they did not read my posts), others were unable to read
                > more than a few sentences due to acute attention span disorders
                (they would say
                > give only short answers, they couldn't handle long ones), and
                others that had
                > reading comprehension problems.

                No, you did something that's referred to as scatter-shot debate.
                Instead of answering a question you raised ten others. Your apparent
                stratagem was to confuse the issue not clarify your own position
                (which is what people at JREF were asking you to do.)



                They would read what I wrote and say, "How
                > could "X and Y" be true be true as you say?" I had been really
                referring to "A
                > and B" but they either were not able to grasp the subject, or
                wanted to be able
                > to shoot holes in it by pretending I had said something else.
                >

                Then you may not understand what was going on there. Most of the
                people at JREF can grasp far more than you might believe. There are
                some exceptions to be sure but for the most part, it's a rather sober—
                well moderated place.


                Many of the subjects in the articles, and persons that are on
                that "text
                > file" site list, I have debunked myself. I have never used any text
                from that
                > site. I never saw it before till you posted the URL. Once again you
                have
                > suffered the shame of premature evaluation. LOL
                > Art
                >


                Well I must take issue with you here.

                Is this not you?

                From antigray@... Thu Dec 08 18:25:39 2005
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                Message-ID: <13c.212fd4db.30ca4516@...>
                Date: Thu, 8 Dec 2005 21:25:26 EST

                And is this not what you posted? The URL is plainly on the top of
                your pasted text. Did you not post this?


                www.textfiles.com/ufo/ossette.ufo
                SPEECH FOR OSSETTE CONFERENCE SEPTEMBER, 1989. -----------------------
                ----------------------- Start speech with the quotes from the MOD re
                UFO not coming under the Official Secrets Act. Then quote the
                American document. (Slide 1) The fact that we are such close allies.
                Also if UFO
                <<snip>>


                So, question; how is it you say

                <i>"I have never used any text from that site. I never saw it before
                till you posted the URL. Once again you have suffered the shame of
                premature evaluation. LOL
                Art " </i>

                When you clearly cut and pasted a large chunk of text from that page?
                Are you mistaken? Are you deliberately lying? Is someone else using
                your Yahoo account?

                Inquiring minds want to know!


                The Odd Emperor
                http://www.oddempire.org
              • John Beatty
                ... that I was posting the proof that the members there were asking for. Here you have posted nothing but hearsay. Give us something original, a source that
                Message 7 of 19 , Dec 13, 2005
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                  >If you had read what I posted at jref you would know
                  that I was posting the proof that the members there
                  were asking for.

                  Here you have posted nothing but hearsay. Give us
                  something original, a source that can be chased down.

                  >From my experience at jref I came to the conclusion
                  that some people there were close-minded and did not
                  want to read the truth (so they did not read my
                  posts), others were unable to read more than a few
                  sentences due to acute attention span disorders (they
                  would say give only short answers, they couldn't
                  handle long ones), and others that had reading
                  comprehension problems.

                  This is fairly typical of the scam artist, to proclaim
                  that their audience has something wrong with them....

                  >They would read what I wrote and say, "How could "X
                  and Y" be true be true as you say?" I had been really
                  referring to "A and B" but they either were not able
                  to grasp the subject, or wanted to be able to shoot
                  holes in it by pretending I had said something else.

                  And again.

                  You have proven nothing. You have made a lot of
                  claims and backed them up with hearsay. You have no
                  proof of any of your assertions. Your entire book is
                  more than likely the same.

                  _________________________________
                  John D. Beatty, Milwaukee Wisconsin
                  AMCIVWAR.COM/AMCIVWAR.NET
                  "History is the only test for the consequences of ideas"

                  __________________________________________________
                  Do You Yahoo!?
                  Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
                  http://mail.yahoo.com
                • John Beatty
                  Forgive my ignorance, but what s this JREF place? ... _________________________________ John D. Beatty, Milwaukee Wisconsin AMCIVWAR.COM/AMCIVWAR.NET History
                  Message 8 of 19 , Dec 13, 2005
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                    Forgive my ignorance, but what's this JREF place?

                    --- odd_empire <no_reply@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

                    >
                    > > Hi Odd,
                    >
                    > Hey Art!
                    >
                    > > If you had read what I posted at jref you would
                    > know that I was
                    > posting the
                    > > proof that the members there were asking for. From
                    > my experience at
                    > jref I came
                    > > to the conclusion that some people there were
                    > close-minded and did
                    > not want
                    > > to read the truth
                    >
                    >
                    > That's extremely prejudicial. You never really
                    > discussed anything at
                    > JREF. As I recall, all you did was (as I already
                    > mentioned) post wads
                    > and wads of text files you got from god knows where
                    > and pleaded with
                    > people to purchase your book. People at JREF are
                    > not interested in
                    > some self-proclaimed "proof." They want to discuss
                    > evidence and
                    > listen to opinions. You can't go in there saying
                    > "this is a fact"
                    > without some evidence to back you up. Those people
                    > would eat you for
                    > lunch and as a matter of fact, they did!
                    >
                    > (so they did not read my posts), others were unable
                    > to read
                    > > more than a few sentences due to acute attention
                    > span disorders
                    > (they would say
                    > > give only short answers, they couldn't handle long
                    > ones), and
                    > others that had
                    > > reading comprehension problems.
                    >
                    > No, you did something that's referred to as
                    > scatter-shot debate.
                    > Instead of answering a question you raised ten
                    > others. Your apparent
                    > stratagem was to confuse the issue not clarify your
                    > own position
                    > (which is what people at JREF were asking you to
                    > do.)
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > They would read what I wrote and say, "How
                    > > could "X and Y" be true be true as you say?" I had
                    > been really
                    > referring to "A
                    > > and B" but they either were not able to grasp the
                    > subject, or
                    > wanted to be able
                    > > to shoot holes in it by pretending I had said
                    > something else.
                    > >
                    >
                    > Then you may not understand what was going on there.
                    > Most of the
                    > people at JREF can grasp far more than you might
                    > believe. There are
                    > some exceptions to be sure but for the most part,
                    > it's a rather sober—
                    > well moderated place.
                    >
                    >
                    > Many of the subjects in the articles, and persons
                    > that are on
                    > that "text
                    > > file" site list, I have debunked myself. I have
                    > never used any text
                    > from that
                    > > site. I never saw it before till you posted the
                    > URL. Once again you
                    > have
                    > > suffered the shame of premature evaluation. LOL
                    > > Art
                    > >
                    >
                    >
                    > Well I must take issue with you here.
                    >
                    > Is this not you?
                    >
                    > From antigray@... Thu Dec 08 18:25:39 2005
                    > Return-Path: <ANTIGRAY@...>
                    > X-Sender: ANTIGRAY@...
                    > X-Apparently-To: debunkingdebunkers@yahoogroups.com
                    > Received: (qmail 53447 invoked from network); 9 Dec
                    > 2005 02:25:36 -
                    > 0000
                    > Received: from unknown (66.218.66.172)
                    > by m27.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 9 Dec 2005
                    > 02:25:36 -0000
                    > Received: from unknown (HELO imo-m24.mx.aol.com)
                    > (64.12.137.5)
                    > by mta4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 9 Dec 2005
                    > 02:25:36 -0000
                    > Received: from ANTIGRAY@...
                    > by imo-m24.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v38_r6.3.) id
                    > r.13c.212fd4db (48552)
                    > for <debunkingdebunkers@yahoogroups.com>; Thu, 8 Dec
                    > 2005 21:25:27 -
                    > 0500 (EST)
                    > Message-ID: <13c.212fd4db.30ca4516@...>
                    > Date: Thu, 8 Dec 2005 21:25:26 EST
                    >
                    > And is this not what you posted? The URL is plainly
                    > on the top of
                    > your pasted text. Did you not post this?
                    >
                    >
                    > www.textfiles.com/ufo/ossette.ufo
                    > SPEECH FOR OSSETTE CONFERENCE SEPTEMBER, 1989.
                    > -----------------------
                    > ----------------------- Start speech with the quotes
                    > from the MOD re
                    > UFO not coming under the Official Secrets Act. Then
                    > quote the
                    > American document. (Slide 1) The fact that we are
                    > such close allies.
                    > Also if UFO
                    > <<snip>>
                    >
                    >
                    > So, question; how is it you say
                    >
                    > <i>"I have never used any text from that site. I
                    > never saw it before
                    > till you posted the URL. Once again you have
                    > suffered the shame of
                    > premature evaluation. LOL
                    > Art " </i>
                    >
                    > When you clearly cut and pasted a large chunk of
                    > text from that page?
                    > Are you mistaken? Are you deliberately lying? Is
                    > someone else using
                    > your Yahoo account?
                    >
                    > Inquiring minds want to know!
                    >
                    >
                    > The Odd Emperor
                    > http://www.oddempire.org
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >


                    _________________________________
                    John D. Beatty, Milwaukee Wisconsin
                    AMCIVWAR.COM/AMCIVWAR.NET
                    "History is the only test for the consequences of ideas"

                    __________________________________________________
                    Do You Yahoo!?
                    Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
                    http://mail.yahoo.com
                  • odd_empire
                    Oh no problem. The James Randi Educational Foundation. A kind of skeptics hangout. Uniformly despised by believers everywhere. http://www.randi.org/ The Odd
                    Message 9 of 19 , Dec 13, 2005
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                      Oh no problem. The James Randi Educational Foundation. A kind of
                      skeptics hangout. Uniformly despised by believers everywhere.

                      http://www.randi.org/

                      The Odd Emperor
                      http://www.odempire.org




                      --- In debunkingdebunkers@yahoogroups.com, John Beatty
                      <jdbeatty.geo@y...> wrote:
                      >
                      > Forgive my ignorance, but what's this JREF place?
                      >
                      > --- odd_empire <no_reply@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
                      >
                      > >
                      > > > Hi Odd,
                      > >
                      > > Hey Art!
                      > >
                      > > > If you had read what I posted at jref you would
                      > > know that I was
                      > > posting the
                      > > > proof that the members there were asking for. From
                      > > my experience at
                      > > jref I came
                      > > > to the conclusion that some people there were
                      > > close-minded and did
                      > > not want
                      > > > to read the truth
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > That's extremely prejudicial. You never really
                      > > discussed anything at
                      > > JREF. As I recall, all you did was (as I already
                      > > mentioned) post wads
                      > > and wads of text files you got from god knows where
                      > > and pleaded with
                      > > people to purchase your book. People at JREF are
                      > > not interested in
                      > > some self-proclaimed "proof." They want to discuss
                      > > evidence and
                      > > listen to opinions. You can't go in there saying
                      > > "this is a fact"
                      > > without some evidence to back you up. Those people
                      > > would eat you for
                      > > lunch and as a matter of fact, they did!
                      > >
                      > > (so they did not read my posts), others were unable
                      > > to read
                      > > > more than a few sentences due to acute attention
                      > > span disorders
                      > > (they would say
                      > > > give only short answers, they couldn't handle long
                      > > ones), and
                      > > others that had
                      > > > reading comprehension problems.
                      > >
                      > > No, you did something that's referred to as
                      > > scatter-shot debate.
                      > > Instead of answering a question you raised ten
                      > > others. Your apparent
                      > > stratagem was to confuse the issue not clarify your
                      > > own position
                      > > (which is what people at JREF were asking you to
                      > > do.)
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > They would read what I wrote and say, "How
                      > > > could "X and Y" be true be true as you say?" I had
                      > > been really
                      > > referring to "A
                      > > > and B" but they either were not able to grasp the
                      > > subject, or
                      > > wanted to be able
                      > > > to shoot holes in it by pretending I had said
                      > > something else.
                      > > >
                      > >
                      > > Then you may not understand what was going on there.
                      > > Most of the
                      > > people at JREF can grasp far more than you might
                      > > believe. There are
                      > > some exceptions to be sure but for the most part,
                      > > it's a rather sober—
                      > > well moderated place.
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > Many of the subjects in the articles, and persons
                      > > that are on
                      > > that "text
                      > > > file" site list, I have debunked myself. I have
                      > > never used any text
                      > > from that
                      > > > site. I never saw it before till you posted the
                      > > URL. Once again you
                      > > have
                      > > > suffered the shame of premature evaluation. LOL
                      > > > Art
                      > > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > Well I must take issue with you here.
                      > >
                      > > Is this not you?
                      > >
                      > > From antigray@ Thu Dec 08 18:25:39 2005
                      > > Return-Path: <ANTIGRAY@>
                      > > X-Sender: ANTIGRAY@
                      > > X-Apparently-To: debunkingdebunkers@yahoogroups.com
                      > > Received: (qmail 53447 invoked from network); 9 Dec
                      > > 2005 02:25:36 -
                      > > 0000
                      > > Received: from unknown (66.218.66.172)
                      > > by m27.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 9 Dec 2005
                      > > 02:25:36 -0000
                      > > Received: from unknown (HELO imo-m24.mx.aol.com)
                      > > (64.12.137.5)
                      > > by mta4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 9 Dec 2005
                      > > 02:25:36 -0000
                      > > Received: from ANTIGRAY@
                      > > by imo-m24.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v38_r6.3.) id
                      > > r.13c.212fd4db (48552)
                      > > for <debunkingdebunkers@yahoogroups.com>; Thu, 8 Dec
                      > > 2005 21:25:27 -
                      > > 0500 (EST)
                      > > Message-ID: <13c.212fd4db.30ca4516@>
                      > > Date: Thu, 8 Dec 2005 21:25:26 EST
                      > >
                      > > And is this not what you posted? The URL is plainly
                      > > on the top of
                      > > your pasted text. Did you not post this?
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > www.textfiles.com/ufo/ossette.ufo
                      > > SPEECH FOR OSSETTE CONFERENCE SEPTEMBER, 1989.
                      > > -----------------------
                      > > ----------------------- Start speech with the quotes
                      > > from the MOD re
                      > > UFO not coming under the Official Secrets Act. Then
                      > > quote the
                      > > American document. (Slide 1) The fact that we are
                      > > such close allies.
                      > > Also if UFO
                      > > <<snip>>
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > So, question; how is it you say
                      > >
                      > > <i>"I have never used any text from that site. I
                      > > never saw it before
                      > > till you posted the URL. Once again you have
                      > > suffered the shame of
                      > > premature evaluation. LOL
                      > > Art " </i>
                      > >
                      > > When you clearly cut and pasted a large chunk of
                      > > text from that page?
                      > > Are you mistaken? Are you deliberately lying? Is
                      > > someone else using
                      > > your Yahoo account?
                      > >
                      > > Inquiring minds want to know!
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > The Odd Emperor
                      > > http://www.oddempire.org
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      >
                      >
                      > _________________________________
                      > John D. Beatty, Milwaukee Wisconsin
                      > AMCIVWAR.COM/AMCIVWAR.NET
                      > "History is the only test for the consequences of ideas"
                      >
                      > __________________________________________________
                      > Do You Yahoo!?
                      > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
                      > http://mail.yahoo.com
                      >
                    • James N. Dawson
                      Art: I don t generally agree with John Beatty and Odd Empire on skepticism and what constitutes a reasonable theory of UFO s and other prima facie
                      Message 10 of 19 , Dec 21, 2005
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                        Art:

                        I don't generally agree with John Beatty and Odd Empire
                        on "skepticism" and what constitutes a reasonable theory of UFO's and
                        other prima facie unexplained phenomena, but in this particular case,
                        I would have to say, from what I was able to plow through of them,
                        your "textfiles" looked pretty much like "hearsay".

                        They may provide some worthwhile leads for the full-time
                        investigator, but they're not going to impress even a moderate
                        disbeliever.

                        This is what you'd need rather than a mere transcript of a phone
                        call:

                        A recording of the conversation itself that could be subjected to
                        some kind of computer or other analysis.

                        Video of the actual person saying these things, would be good (though
                        not necessarily conclusive) evidence for me.

                        As far as documents, you need something on official government
                        stationary which you could scan and put on the net. Admittedly this
                        could be faked, but it would be better than just a transcription. (I
                        saw the Joe Nickels critique of the MJ-12 documents, and found them,
                        as usual, pretty snide and shoddy. Stanton Friedman answered them
                        well and convincingly---though these are seperate questions whether
                        these documents are ultimately genuine.)

                        I don't think saying that people are too stupid and lazy to read
                        these textfiles is very convincing. I printed mine out and hoped to
                        go through them myself, but boy, they are dense and unreadable. If
                        you want people to read the evidence, you've got to make it a little
                        easier, and paragraph breaks and section titles certainly would help
                        to do that. Also, I don't understand the necessity of highlighting
                        whole text. It defeats the whole purpose of hightlighting.

                        In the final analysis, I'm not sure if trying to engage with the
                        conventionalists (those who call themselves "skeptics" but are only
                        skeptical toward anything that to them, on an emotional level, is out
                        of the ordinary or a minority view, that doesn't adhere to a rigid
                        Cartesian model of 17th century science, etc.) Since they seem to be
                        demanding "absolute proof" for everything, you can never, even
                        theoretically, satisfy them, because in forensics and even the hard
                        science, there's always an element of doubt or uncertainty.

                        So, I've pretty much come to the conclusion, arguing with such people
                        is largely an exercise in futility, and the exact psychological
                        motivations for their militant disbelief is perhaps something of a
                        mystery in itself!

                        James

                        > ====================================
                        >
                        > www.textfiles.com/ufo/ossette.ufo
                        > SPEECH FOR OSSETTE CONFERENCE SEPTEMBER, 1989.
                        > ---------------------------------------------- Start speech with
                        the quotes from the MOD re UFO not coming
                        > under the Official Secrets Act. Then quote the American document.
                        (Slide 1) The
                        > fact that we are such close allies. Also if UFO don't come under
                        the Official
                        > Secrets Act why is it that so many are retained under the 30 year
                        rule. I am
                        > Tony Dodd and my friend is Dr. Henry Azadehdel. Both Dr. Henry and
                        myself were
                        > originally geared to speak about our own particular experiences in
                        the UFO
                        > field, but due to information which came to us several weeks ago in
                        relation to
                        > an alleged crashed UFO in South Africa, we have spent a
                        considerable amount of
                        > time engaged in an in depth investigation into the information
                        received. Due
                        > to the complex nature of the investigation both Dr. Henry and
                        myself will take
                        > turns to speak and will hopefully give you a picture of the
                        sequence of
                        > events as they occurred. You will be shown slides of certain
                        documents which were
                        > passed to us and also of the person who passed the information.
                        Unfortunately
                        > it has been necessary to blank out certain names and places but
                        this has been
                        > done to protect the identity of our informant who is no longer in
                        this country.
                        > He stated that he is a South African Air Force Intelligence Officer
                        and would
                        > be charged with Treason in his own country should his identity be
                        revealed. I
                        > have been corresponding with this man for a long time but was not
                        aware of
                        > his Intelligence Connections until the last few weeks. At this
                        stage I would
                        > point out as stated previously, that certain omissions have been
                        made in the talk
                        > we are about to give. It is of the utmost importance that our
                        sources of
                        > information are totally protected for their own safety. By
                        protecting informants
                        > in this way we hope that other Intelligence sources will come
                        forward and
                        > eventually the full picture of what is going on will emerge. If
                        when we have
                        > finished giving details of this incident there is time we will be
                        happy to answer
                        > questions but we reserve the right not to answer if we feel that
                        our continuing
                        > enquiries or source of information would be compromised.
                        > ************************************ *** *** *** END OF PAGE 1 ***
                        *** ***
                        > ************************************ During the first week in July
                        I received correspondence from Mr.
                        > which stated that a UFO had crashed in the Kalahari Desert and ha
                        been
                        > recovered by a team of South African Military personnel to secret
                        Air Force base. He
                        > also informed me that two live alien entities had been found in the
                        craft. The
                        > information also stated that a group of American Military personnel
                        had
                        > arrived and had taken over the investigation. He stated that he
                        would forward a
                        > copy of the Official South African Top Secret document to me but
                        would send i
                        > later in a letter which would not contain any details of the sender
                        in case the
                        > letter was intercepted. (Slide 2) A week later I received the
                        document which
                        > consisted of five pages and was headed with the South African Air
                        Force crest.
                        > Every page of the document was marked Top Secret. (Slide 3) The
                        story told by
                        > the document was as follows: (Slide 4, 5, 6, 7, 8. At 1.45 pm on
                        the 7th. May
                        > 1989 a Naval Frigate of the South African navy was at sea when it
                        contacted
                        > Naval Headquarters to report an unidentified flying object on their
                        radar scope,
                        > heading towards the South African continent in a North Westerly
                        direction at a
                        > calculated speed of 5746 nautical miles per hour. This message was
                        > acknowledged and confirmed that the object was also being tracked
                        by airborne radar and
                        > military ground radar installations. The object entered South
                        African air
                        > space at 1.52 PM and at this time radio contact was attempted but
                        to no avail. As
                        > a result two Mirage jet fighters were scrambled on an intercept
                        course. At
                        > 1.59pm. Squadron leader ------- the pilot of one of the Mirage
                        fighters stated
                        > over the intercom that they had radar and visual confirmation of
                        the craft. The
                        > order was given to arm and fire the Thor 2 experimental laser
                        canon. This was
                        > done. (Thor 2 is a Top Secret experimental beam weapon) The
                        Squadron Leader
                        > reported several blinding flashes emanating from the object which
                        had started
                        > wavering and it started to decrease speed and altitude at the rate
                        of 3000 feet
                        > per minute. It eventually crashed at a 25 degree angle into the
                        dessert in
                        > Botswana A recovery team was dispatched to the crash site where it
                        was found that
                        > the UFO was embedded in the side of a large crater in the sand. The
                        sand in
                        > the vicinity of the object was fused together due to the intense
                        heat. One
                        > telescopic leg protruded from the side of the craft as if caused by
                        the impact.
                        > Large recovery helicopters were flown to the site and the first one
                        reaching the
                        > scene overflew the object at a height of 500 feet and immediately
                        stalled and
                        > crashed. Five crew members were killed. It was found that vehicles
                        > approaching the object also developed engine trouble due to an
                        intense electro magnetic
                        > field coming from the object. ************************************
                        *** *** ***
                        > END OF PAGE 2 *** *** *** ************************************
                        Eventually a
                        > paint like compound was received at the site and painted on the
                        object which
                        > appeared to neutralize the magnetic field. The object was
                        eventually conveyed to
                        > an Air Force Base and was taken to the sixth level underground. At
                        this time
                        > it was totally intact. Whilst this was going on the American Team
                        from Wright
                        > Patterson AFB arrived. Whilst the recovery team and scientists were
                        mulling
                        > over the object their attention was suddenly attracted to a noise
                        from the side
                        > of the craft. They noticed that an opening had appeared in the
                        side. It was
                        > doorway but had only opened to a small gap. Attempts were made to
                        open the door
                        > but without success so hydraulic pressure gear was used to force
                        the door
                        > open. As soon as the door opened two small alien entities staggered
                        out an were
                        > immediately arrested by security personnel present. A makeshift
                        medical holding
                        > area was set up. One of the entities appeared to be seriously
                        injured but
                        > doctors withdrew when one of them was attacked by one of the
                        aliens. The attacked
                        > doctor received severe deep scratches to the face and chest from
                        the claws of
                        > the alien. (Slide 8) Arrangements were made for the UFO and the
                        aliens to be
                        > transported to Wright Patterson AFB, Dayton Ohio; USA As a result
                        of this
                        > information a person who will remain unnamed telephoned the South
                        African AFB where
                        > the Mirage Fighters had been scrambled. This man was a Private
                        Investigator
                        > in America for many years and therefore well versed in speaking
                        American. He
                        > asked to be connected to Squadron Leader XXXXXXXXXX the
                        conversation went as
                        > follows: Is that Squadron Leader XXXXXXXXXXXXX REPLY Yes. QUESTION.
                        This is
                        > General Brunel speaking from Wright Patterson. I have the document
                        in front of me
                        > code named XXXXXXX REPLY. Yes. QUESTION. I am confused, this
                        document does not
                        > say how many times you fired at the object. REPLY. Who did you say
                        you were
                        > sir QUESTION. General Brunel, surely Squadron Leader it's a
                        straight forward
                        > question, how many times did you fire at the darn thing.
                        > ************************************ *** *** *** END OF PAGE 3 ***
                        *** ***
                        > ************************************ REPLY. I fired once sir, could
                        you hang on so that I can go to safe
                        > phone. QUESTION. That won't be necessary Squadron Leader, you have
                        told m what
                        > I wanted to know goodbye. --------------------------------- In the
                        meantime
                        > military personnel were contacted in America to try to find out
                        what was
                        > happening at Wright Pattterson AFB. REPLY. Can't get any
                        information about arrival
                        > of UFO but established that Wright Patterson was put on Red Alert
                        on 23rd.
                        > June, 1989. (This is the day the UFO was proported to be shipped to
                        Wright
                        > Patterson.) --------------------------------------------------------
                        ---------- On
                        > July 31st. this year our informant arrived in this country and by
                        prior
                        > arrangement took up temporary residence with Dr. Henry. He informed
                        us that he was on
                        > route to Wright Patterson AFB on a military mission and would
                        depart on the
                        > 6th. August. He contacted the South African Embassy from Dr.
                        Henry's home to let
                        > them know where he was staying in case they needed to contact him.
                        He later
                        > made a sworn statement to us confirming his story. (Slide 9) He had
                        photographs
                        > taken with us (Slide 10. 11. 12.) We were informed that various
                        hieroglyphics
                        > were found inside the craft and stated that the military had been
                        unable to
                        > decipher them. (Slide 15) Dr. Will talk about this. He also did a
                        drawing of the
                        > interior of the craft and the general layout. He also showed us and
                        permitted
                        > us to photograph two NASA passes which were for his use at Wright
                        Patterson
                        > AFB At this time we made contact with a second intelligence officer
                        in South
                        > Africa who spoke to Dr. Henry personally. This officer told us that
                        he had seen
                        > and had access to a series of black and white photographs of the
                        captured
                        > aliens and their craft and a 50 page telex message from Wright
                        Patterson AFB
                        > relating to the recovery of the UFO He stressed how dangerous it
                        would be to get
                        > the papers but stated that he would forward a set of the black and
                        white
                        > photographs and a copy of the telex as soon as he was able. One of
                        the named American
                        > personnel who was present at the retrieval was later spoken to at
                        Wright
                        > Patterson AFB by Dr Henry at the OSI department. (Henry Will speak
                        about this)
                        > ************************************ *** *** *** END OF PAGE 4 ***
                        *** ***
                        > ************************************ Within 24 hours our informant
                        staying with Dr.
                        > Henry received a telephone call from the head of South African
                        Intelligence
                        > informing him that the mission was cancelled and telling him to
                        report back to
                        > Military Headquarters Pretoria forthwith where he would face a
                        Court Martial. I
                        > will now hand over to Dr. Henry who will tell you of the series of
                        events
                        > which took place at his home and of the various telephone calls
                        which were made
                        > and received in the next few days. I NOW HAND OVER TO DR HENRY WHO
                        WILL TELL
                        > YOU OF TELEPHONE CONVERSATIONS MADE BOTH TO AND FROM HIS HOME BY
                        INTELLIGENCE
                        > SOURCE CONNECTED WITH OUR INFORMANT. INCLUDING A CONVERSATION WITH
                        AN
                        > INTELLIGENCE OFFICER IN SOUTH AFRICA WORKING IN THE TOP SECRET
                        DOCUMENTS AREA.
                        > ************************************ *** *** *** END OF PAGE 5 ***
                        *** ***
                        > ************************************ ________________ | | | picture
                        of | | winged bird | |
                        > crest | |______________| S O U T H A F R I C A N A I R F O R C E
                        THIS FILE
                        > HAS BEEN CLASSIFIED BY D.A.F.I. INFORMATION NOT TO BE DIVULGED -
                        TOP SECRET
                        > ************************************ *** *** *** END OF PAGE 6 ***
                        *** ***
                        > ************************************ This page has a star and the
                        bird crest at the
                        > top The page appears to be a cover/abstract page A PCX file
                        (graphic) of this
                        > page is available in the UFONET I file library. Hopefully a GIF
                        version of the
                        > file will be available shortly.
                        ************************************ *** ***
                        > *** END OF PAGE 7 *** *** *** ************************************
                        > ************************************ *** *** *** 14 Pages of
                        Material follow *** *** but
                        > we are unable to convert *** *** via OCR due to inter mixed *** ***
                        handwriting
                        > on the pages *** *** *** ************************************ The
                        transcript
                        > of my telephone Conversation with the Chief of Military
                        Intelligence in South
                        > Africa, Aug. 1989
                        > -------------------------------------------------------------
                        Henry: H General: X H: Mr. X X: Yah. H: Hello, I am calling from
                        Hawaii X:
                        > Yes... H: I would like to ask you about this UFO crash in Kalahari.
                        X: You
                        > what? H: A UFO crash in Kalahari dessert. (Talking rather loud) X:
                        I can't hear
                        > you very well, just say it again. H: A UFO crash in Kalahari
                        desert, May 1989.
                        > X: May 89 ( Thinking about my above comments). B: Yes. X: Who is
                        speaking? H:
                        > This is Jonnathan speaking from Hawaii. X: What is your surname? H:
                        Jonnathan
                        > Smith. X: (He repeats my name, giving the impression of writing it
                        down)'O.K.,
                        > so WHAT DO YOU WANT TO KNOW? H: I want to know where did it go
                        eventually? X:
                        > I can't hear you. H: Where did it go eventually? Did it go to
                        Wright Paterson,
                        > or you kept it in South Africa after it crashed. X: WHY DO YOU WANT
                        TO KNOW?
                        > H: Well. I've been investigating UFOS for 20 yoars. X: I think
                        you...you are
                        > talking to wrong person, whore did you get my number? H: Well, we
                        have contacts
                        > to get numbers everywhere. X: I CAN NOT GIVE YOU THAT INFORMATION:
                        I'VE NOT
                        > GOT IT. H: It crashed in May 89, and was shippad to Wright Paterson
                        in June, am
                        > I correct X: (stammering) No....n....no, I am not sure, I don't
                        thinkyou have
                        > got the RIGHT information, whera did you get that? H: Well,
                        information comes
                        > to us from all over thr world. X: What kind of crash was it?
                        (Remember I had
                        > alraady told him) H: It was an Unidentified Flying Object. X: In
                        the Kalahari?
                        > H: Yes. X: 19...? H: 1989, Botswanna. X: Ah...Ah..h..., No, I
                        haven't got
                        > that information. I think perhaps it is a rumour. H: I think I
                        would be very much
                        > surprised if it was a rumour. ************************************
                        *** ***
                        > *** END OF PAGE 22 *** *** *** ************************************
                        ******* X:
                        > (Now trying to meddle the subject) So, What are you saying? You are
                        sitting in
                        > Hawaii and you got that information. Where did you get that?? H: As
                        I said, we
                        > are operating a UFO network. X: Well...Ah...well, I can not give
                        you ANY
                        > FURTHER INFORMATION, I do not know anything about it.
                        > --------------------------------------------------------------------
                        - ************************************
                        > *** *** *** END OF PAGE 23 *** *** ***
                        ************************************
                        > ************************************ *** *** *** 3 Pages of
                        Material follow ***
                        > *** but we are unable to convert *** *** via OCR due to inter mixed
                        *** ***
                        > handwriting on the pages *** *** ***
                        ************************************ These
                        > 3 pages consist of a transcript of the telephone conversation
                        between Dr.
                        > Henry Azadehdel and Mr. L at Wright Patterson September 15,1989.
                        > ===================================
                        >
                        > From: samilitaryhistory.org/research.html
                        >
                        > From: Paul Carolus
                        > e-mail: ashwinc@m...
                        > Subject: UFO shot down in SWA
                        > Date posted: 13 May 2002 I have heard about an incident that
                        happened in SWA,
                        > where a UFO was shot down by a South African pilot. I would like to
                        include
                        > this happening in a book that I am writing,and would appreciate it
                        if anyone
                        > with any knowledge on the subject who was on active duty in SWA in
                        the 1970s and
                        > 1980s,could mail me.
                        >
                      • odd_empire
                        ... You know, much of this time I think arguing with jingoistic, insulting, over emoting irrationalists is a waste too. I do enjoy debating points of view
                        Message 11 of 19 , Dec 24, 2005
                        • 0 Attachment
                          --- In debunkingdebunkers@yahoogroups.com, "James N. Dawson"
                          <jamesndawson@y...> wrote:
                          >
                          > Art:
                          >
                          > I don't generally agree with John Beatty and Odd Empire
                          > on "skepticism" and what constitutes a reasonable theory of UFO's and
                          > other prima facie unexplained phenomena, but in this particular case,
                          > I would have to say, from what I was able to plow through of them,
                          > your "textfiles" looked pretty much like "hearsay".
                          >
                          > They may provide some worthwhile leads for the full-time
                          > investigator, but they're not going to impress even a moderate
                          > disbeliever.
                          >
                          > This is what you'd need rather than a mere transcript of a phone
                          > call:
                          >
                          > A recording of the conversation itself that could be subjected to
                          > some kind of computer or other analysis.
                          >
                          > Video of the actual person saying these things, would be good (though
                          > not necessarily conclusive) evidence for me.
                          >
                          > As far as documents, you need something on official government
                          > stationary which you could scan and put on the net. Admittedly this
                          > could be faked, but it would be better than just a transcription. (I
                          > saw the Joe Nickels critique of the MJ-12 documents, and found them,
                          > as usual, pretty snide and shoddy. Stanton Friedman answered them
                          > well and convincingly---though these are seperate questions whether
                          > these documents are ultimately genuine.)
                          >
                          > I don't think saying that people are too stupid and lazy to read
                          > these textfiles is very convincing. I printed mine out and hoped to
                          > go through them myself, but boy, they are dense and unreadable. If
                          > you want people to read the evidence, you've got to make it a little
                          > easier, and paragraph breaks and section titles certainly would help
                          > to do that. Also, I don't understand the necessity of highlighting
                          > whole text. It defeats the whole purpose of hightlighting.
                          >
                          > In the final analysis, I'm not sure if trying to engage with the
                          > conventionalists (those who call themselves "skeptics" but are only
                          > skeptical toward anything that to them, on an emotional level, is out
                          > of the ordinary or a minority view, that doesn't adhere to a rigid
                          > Cartesian model of 17th century science, etc.) Since they seem to be
                          > demanding "absolute proof" for everything, you can never, even
                          > theoretically, satisfy them, because in forensics and even the hard
                          > science, there's always an element of doubt or uncertainty.
                          >


                          You know, much of this time I think arguing with jingoistic,
                          insulting, over emoting irrationalists is a waste too. I do enjoy
                          debating points of view because frankly, I'm fascinated with people
                          who think differently than I do. Not afraid of them like some people
                          seem to be. Just fascinated.

                          Most people strictly applying 17th century models of science are
                          pretty crazy, you know. Witches, psychologists and other heretics
                          should be burned at the stake. That kind of thing.

                          Know anyone like that me-bucko? And I don't think anyone's demanding
                          absolute proof here. Just a little evidence would be nice. What Art
                          (and apparently you) think is evidence is not really, it's data and
                          not very good data at that.


                          > So, I've pretty much come to the conclusion, arguing with such people
                          > is largely an exercise in futility, and the exact psychological
                          > motivations for their militant disbelief is perhaps something of a
                          > mystery in itself!

                          It's also a lot easier to validate your own beliefs without us
                          unbelievers mucking up the process. OK, I hear you! Skeptics are all
                          stupid, skeptics are all evil. Skeptics should all be ignored.

                          If you truly believe that, you yourself are following good old
                          fashioned 17th century values. Check your history books on the
                          conditions of early Renaissance Europe and see for yourself. Also, try
                          arguing a point using non emotive language and see how skeptics react.


                          You have a great holiday my man!
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