Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.
 

Re: Re: Alien Disclosure For The Holidays

Expand Messages
  • antigray@cs.com
    In a message dated 12/2/2005 6:40:06 AM Eastern Standard Time, ... Hi John, In case you didn t know, any crashed alien craft are retrieved by rapidly deployed
    Message 1 of 19 , Dec 3, 2005
      In a message dated 12/2/2005 6:40:06 AM Eastern Standard Time, debunkingdebunkers@yahoogroups.com writes:
        Date: Thu, 1 Dec 2005 04:06:20 -0800 (PST)
         From: John Beatty <jdbeatty.geo@...>
      Subject: Re: Alien Disclosure For The Holidays

      Ah, hah.  What physical evidence do you have of any
      extraterrestrial presence?  Where and when can it be
      tested?  What benchmarks do you use to define it?


      Hi John,
      In case you didn't know, any crashed alien craft are retrieved by rapidly deployed military recovery teams. They are examined and tested in Air Force labs. No private citizen would be allowed to keep advanced alien technology. If one crashed in a populated area the Air Force would say one of their planes went down and cordon off the area. Anyone trying to take souvenirs would face serious Federal felony charges. If you will remember when the shuttle crashed, a sheriff in Texas was arrested and prosecuted on Fed felony charges for keeping part of the shuttle. That's why in my book I present only legal evidence. You trying to get me busted? Hahaha.
      Art
      http://www.booklocker.com/books/1417.html


      >... real story about UFOs and aliens,
      >order the book
      >that reveals the whole truth.  As I am the author
      >and a member of this
      >group, I am available to answer any questions you
      >may have.

      _________________________________
      John D. Beatty, Milwaukee Wisconsin
      AMCIVWAR.COM/AMCIVWAR.NET
      "History is the only test for the consequences of ideas"

    • paulcanagnostopoulos
      ... rapidly ... Air Force labs. ... technology. If one ... planes went ... face ... shuttle crashed, a ... for keeping ... evidence. You ... You didn t answer
      Message 2 of 19 , Dec 5, 2005
        --- In debunkingdebunkers@yahoogroups.com, antigray@c... wrote:

        > > Ah, hah. What physical evidence do you have of any
        > > extraterrestrial presence? Where and when can it be
        > > tested? What benchmarks do you use to define it?
        >
        > Hi John,
        > In case you didn't know, any crashed alien craft are retrieved by
        rapidly
        > deployed military recovery teams. They are examined and tested in
        Air Force labs.
        > No private citizen would be allowed to keep advanced alien
        technology. If one
        > crashed in a populated area the Air Force would say one of their
        planes went
        > down and cordon off the area. Anyone trying to take souvenirs would
        face
        > serious Federal felony charges. If you will remember when the
        shuttle crashed, a
        > sheriff in Texas was arrested and prosecuted on Fed felony charges
        for keeping
        > part of the shuttle. That's why in my book I present only legal
        evidence. You
        > trying to get me busted? Hahaha.

        You didn't answer his question, Antigray. Nor did you answer it during
        your time at the JREF forum.

        ~~ Paul
      • John Beatty
        ... retrieved by rapidly deployed military recovery teams. How many former members of these teams have sold their stories to the media? Why not? There have
        Message 3 of 19 , Dec 5, 2005
          >In case you didn't know, any crashed alien craft are
          retrieved by
          rapidly deployed military recovery teams.

          How many former members of these "teams" have sold
          their stories to the media? Why not? There have to
          be hundreds of former members somewhere, and at least
          one would have been tempted by the money. They would
          have to have records, orders, SOPs, and other
          documents that could at least put some validity to
          your claim. Where are they?

          I wouldn't try the "secret" excuse. I spent 26 years
          in uniform, most of it in security and intelligence.
          An operation of the size required would leave a trail,
          a footprint. There are none.

          >They are examined and tested in Air Force labs.

          Where?

          > No private citizen would be allowed to keep advanced
          alien
          technology.

          How convenient for you. No one can refute your claim
          simply because "they" don't let you.

          >Anyone trying to take souvenirs would face serious
          Federal felony charges.

          What charge?

          >If you will remember when the shuttle crashed, a
          sheriff in Texas was arrested and prosecuted on Fed
          felony charges
          for keeping part of the shuttle.

          Cite the case and the law.

          >That's why in my book I present only legal evidence.
          You
          trying to get me busted?

          I'm trying to get you to participate in the miltitary
          historical, legal and scientific process by providing
          your evidence for analysis by others. You say you
          "can't" have any physical evidence by law. I reply by
          asking what your evidence is for this allegation, what
          law, cases and historical information can be found.
          You getting "busted" for providing information in this
          matter is unlikely.

          However, I also regard a reasoned or realistic
          response as unlikely.



          _________________________________
          John D. Beatty, Milwaukee Wisconsin
          AMCIVWAR.COM/AMCIVWAR.NET
          "History is the only test for the consequences of ideas"



          __________________________________________
          Yahoo! DSL – Something to write home about.
          Just $16.99/mo. or less.
          dsl.yahoo.com
        • odd_empire
          I think it would be hilarious if someone actually got indicted and went to trial for possession of alien technology. What? You re charging me with WHAT? I say
          Message 4 of 19 , Dec 5, 2005
            I think it would be hilarious if someone actually got indicted and
            went to trial for possession of alien technology.

            "What? You're charging me with WHAT? I say it's just scrap metal.
            Comon! Prove me wrong!"

            The judge would throw it out so fast it would make your head spin.



            --- In debunkingdebunkers@yahoogroups.com, antigray@c... wrote:
            >
            > In a message dated 12/2/2005 6:40:06 AM Eastern Standard Time,
            > debunkingdebunkers@yahoogroups.com writes:
            > > Date: Thu, 1 Dec 2005 04:06:20 -0800 (PST)
            > > From: John Beatty <jdbeatty.geo@y...>
            > > Subject: Re: Alien Disclosure For The Holidays
            > >
            > > Ah, hah. What physical evidence do you have of any
            > > extraterrestrial presence? Where and when can it be
            > > tested? What benchmarks do you use to define it?
            >
            > Hi John,
            > In case you didn't know, any crashed alien craft are retrieved by
            rapidly
            > deployed military recovery teams. They are examined and tested in
            Air Force labs.
            > No private citizen would be allowed to keep advanced alien
            technology. If one
            > crashed in a populated area the Air Force would say one of their
            planes went
            > down and cordon off the area. Anyone trying to take souvenirs would
            face
            > serious Federal felony charges. If you will remember when the
            shuttle crashed, a
            > sheriff in Texas was arrested and prosecuted on Fed felony charges
            for keeping
            > part of the shuttle. That's why in my book I present only legal
            evidence. You
            > trying to get me busted? Hahaha.
            > Art
            > http://www.booklocker.com/books/1417.html
            >
            > >
            > > >... real story about UFOs and aliens,
            > > >order the book
            > > >that reveals the whole truth. As I am the author
            > > >and a member of this
            > > >group, I am available to answer any questions you
            > > >may have.
            > >
            > > _________________________________
            > > John D. Beatty, Milwaukee Wisconsin
            > > AMCIVWAR.COM/AMCIVWAR.NET
            > > "History is the only test for the consequences of ideas"
            > >
            >
          • antigray@cs.com
            In a message dated 12/6/2005 7:17:03 AM Eastern Standard Time, ... Space Shuttle Debris Indictments TYLER, Texas, March 6, 2003 A group of volunteers searching
            Message 5 of 19 , Dec 7, 2005
              In a message dated 12/6/2005 7:17:03 AM Eastern Standard Time, debunkingdebunkers@yahoogroups.com writes:
                Date: Mon, 5 Dec 2005 08:23:49 -0800 (PST)
                 From: John Beatty <jdbeatty.geo@...>
              Subject: Re: Re: Alien Disclosure For The Holidays

              >In case you didn't know, any crashed alien craft are
              retrieved by
              rapidly deployed military recovery teams.

              How many former members of these "teams" have sold
              their stories to the media?  Why not?  There have to
              be hundreds of former members somewhere, and at least
              one would have been tempted by the money.  They would
              have to have records, orders, SOPs, and other
              documents that could at least put some validity to
              your claim.  Where are they?

              I wouldn't try the "secret" excuse.  I spent 26 years
              in uniform, most of it in security and intelligence.
              An operation of the size required would leave a trail,
              a footprint.  There are none.

              >They are examined and tested in Air Force labs.

              Where?

              >No private citizen would be allowed to keep advanced
              alien
              technology.

              How convenient for you.  No one can refute your claim
              simply because "they" don't let you.

              >Anyone trying to take souvenirs would face serious
              Federal felony charges.

              What charge?

              >If you will remember when the shuttle crashed, a
              sheriff in Texas was arrested and prosecuted on Fed
              felony charges
              for keeping part of the shuttle.

              Cite the case and the law.

              >That's why in my book I present only legal evidence.
              You
              trying to get me busted?

              I'm trying to get you to participate in the miltitary
              historical, legal and scientific process by providing
              your evidence for analysis by others.  You say you
              "can't" have any physical evidence by law.  I reply by
              asking what your evidence is for this allegation, what
              law, cases and historical information can be found.
              You getting "busted" for providing information in this
              matter is unlikely.

              However, I also regard a reasoned or realistic
              response as unlikely.

              Space Shuttle Debris Indictments

              TYLER, Texas, March 6, 2003
              A group of volunteers searching for pieces of Columbia outside Nacogdoches, Texas, early last month examines a piece of possible space shuttle debris. (AP)

              (AP) A law enforcement officer accused of pilfering debris from space shuttle Columbia has been charged with stealing government property.

              A grand jury on Tuesday indicted Robert Hagan II, 45, on a charge that he stole a shuttle tile.

              Four people now have been indicted on charges alleging they stole shuttle parts that landed in East Texas after Columbia broke apart Feb. 1, killing all seven astronauts.

              Court documents show that the indictments of Merrie Savage Hipp, 43, and Bradley Justin Gaudet, 23, led to Hagan's arrest.

              In Beaumont, another federal grand jury indicted Jeffrey Arriola, 35, a sheriff's deputy, on Wednesday of charges he kept shuttle debris.

              Arriola resigned after investigators confronted him with the accusation, officials said. If convicted, Arriola faces up to 15 years in prison and fines up to $500,000.

              Hagan, a Harrison County constable, showed shuttle debris to a sheriff's deputy and told him he was allowed to keep the items, according to records.

              Once the deputy heard of the other looting arrests, he told his superiors about Hagan, a court affidavit states.

              Hagan remained free on bond and had not appeared in federal court to enter a plea on the charge. If convicted, he could face up to 10 years in prison and a $250,000 fine.

              In Texas, constables are primarily responsible for serving court papers and working as courtroom bailiffs, though they sometimes write tickets, patrol or do other police work. They are elected to four-year terms.

              © MMIII The Associated Press. All Rights Reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten, or redistributed.
              ===========================
              As I said, the govt. would claim that what crashed was their military craft and you would be prosecuted if you took pieces. They already did this with the government of South Africa and forced them to turn over an alien craft that had crashed there, even though the bodies were obviously alien. They even made the S. Africans fly it on one of their military cargo planes to the US because the S. African Air Force had shot it down.
              Art

            • John Beatty
              ... from space shuttle Columbia has been charged with stealing government property. Very good. NOTHING to do with advanced alien technology, however. You
              Message 6 of 19 , Dec 7, 2005
                >A law enforcement officer accused of pilfering debris
                from space shuttle Columbia has been charged with
                stealing government property.

                Very good. NOTHING to do with "advanced alien
                technology," however. You DO recognize that?

                Very clearly, "stealing government property" is NOT
                the same as "posessing advanced alien technology."
                Are you clear on the distinction? If not, I'm certain
                any first year law student can make it crystal clear.

                > As I said, the govt. would claim that what crashed
                > was their military craft
                > and you would be prosecuted if you took pieces.

                When has this ever happened? Are you now claiming
                that the shuttle was actually a crashed alien craft?

                >They
                > already did this with the government of South Africa
                and forced them to turn over an alien craft that had
                crashed there,

                When did the US government violate South African
                soveregnty and recover unknown artifacts from a
                freindly power? Using what law, court or other means
                of coercion? How did they hide all this from the mass
                media?

                > ...even though the bodies were
                > obviously alien.

                And your proof for this is...?

                >They even made
                > the S. Africans fly it on one of their military
                > cargo planes to the US because
                > the S. African Air Force had shot it down.

                How "advanced" would this spaceship be if it was shot
                down by a third-rate air force? Why would they shoot
                it down? How was it established that the artifact
                was "alien?"

                Now, what else have you got? Where's the former
                members of the collection teams? What law prevents
                you from keeping "alien" materials that the government
                does not know about? Or are you saying that "they"
                know where the ALL are?

                Need you to think about this real hard: Knowing what
                a sieve the government is, how and WHY would they keep
                all this "alien" activity a secret for so long?

                _________________________________
                John D. Beatty, Milwaukee Wisconsin
                AMCIVWAR.COM/AMCIVWAR.NET
                "History is the only test for the consequences of ideas"



                __________________________________________
                Yahoo! DSL – Something to write home about.
                Just $16.99/mo. or less.
                dsl.yahoo.com
              • James N. Dawson
                John: The issue is whether government has the power and ABILITY to CLAIM whatever objects, artefacts, etc. they CHOOSE to, of ANY event or occurrence, whether
                Message 7 of 19 , Dec 7, 2005
                  John:

                  The issue is whether government has the power and ABILITY to CLAIM
                  whatever objects, artefacts, etc. they CHOOSE to, of ANY event or
                  occurrence, whether it's an alleged alien space craft, bullet from an
                  assasination, etc., etc. Whether it's in the name of preserving a
                  crime scene, national security, or just brute force and intimidation,
                  I fail to see why it can't.

                  That doesn't resolve the philosophical question of the
                  unfalsifiability of the claim UFO believers (no pejorative intended)
                  have: "The evidence was/is there but the government confiscated
                  it". But I fail to see why that claim isn't plausible.

                  A certain podiatrist, whose name I forget at the moment, claims to
                  have extracted bits of metal from people that have very anomolous
                  properties. Is it all hype? How would I know? I'm not qualified to
                  say. Who am I to question his knowledge and expertise, or to judge
                  whether a CSICOPist has validly done so. If you and others don't
                  think this evidence is credible, the ball is in your court to say why.

                  Bruce Macabbee, Stanton Friedman, and plenty of others I can't recall
                  at the moment are physicists or trained in advanced technological
                  analysis have examined footage of alleged UFO's and claim the
                  analysis proves (or maybe just highly suggests) many films and
                  videotapes of UFO's are not fake. Who am I to dispute them? But
                  those who do dispute them, as least as far as I've read, listened to
                  radio, or watched on TV, have done little that convinced me that
                  Macabee, et al's reasoning or conclusions about the evidence is
                  flawed.

                  I have a high degree of agnosticism about the matter. But I don't
                  understand the rush to dismiss it all as fantasy as do
                  the "conventionalists" (I'd like to avoid pejoratives like "debunker,
                  scoftic, etc., but I can't concede that you're a "skeptic", because
                  it appears to me your very selective in your skepticism. I consider
                  myself a skeptic, both to the over-interpreters in the UFO-believer
                  community and the dismissers and shoddy-explainers-away like Randi,
                  Nichols, and CSICOP.

                  With all I've read, there's just enough for me that rings true that
                  something anomolous is going on. People do misinterpret and mis-
                  remember, but not to the degree the CSICOPist and similar types claim.

                  James N. Dawson

                  (Here I am again, spending time on a subject I really don't have the
                  time to!)


                  --- In debunkingdebunkers@yahoogroups.com, John Beatty
                  <jdbeatty.geo@y...> wrote:
                  >
                  > >A law enforcement officer accused of pilfering debris
                  > from space shuttle Columbia has been charged with
                  > stealing government property.
                  >
                  > Very good. NOTHING to do with "advanced alien
                  > technology," however. You DO recognize that?
                  >
                  > Very clearly, "stealing government property" is NOT
                  > the same as "posessing advanced alien technology."
                  > Are you clear on the distinction? If not, I'm certain
                  > any first year law student can make it crystal clear.
                  >
                  > > As I said, the govt. would claim that what crashed
                  > > was their military craft
                  > > and you would be prosecuted if you took pieces.
                  >
                  > When has this ever happened? Are you now claiming
                  > that the shuttle was actually a crashed alien craft?
                  >
                  > >They
                  > > already did this with the government of South Africa
                  > and forced them to turn over an alien craft that had
                  > crashed there,
                  >
                  > When did the US government violate South African
                  > soveregnty and recover unknown artifacts from a
                  > freindly power? Using what law, court or other means
                  > of coercion? How did they hide all this from the mass
                  > media?
                  >
                  > > ...even though the bodies were
                  > > obviously alien.
                  >
                  > And your proof for this is...?
                  >
                  > >They even made
                  > > the S. Africans fly it on one of their military
                  > > cargo planes to the US because
                  > > the S. African Air Force had shot it down.
                  >
                  > How "advanced" would this spaceship be if it was shot
                  > down by a third-rate air force? Why would they shoot
                  > it down? How was it established that the artifact
                  > was "alien?"
                  >
                  > Now, what else have you got? Where's the former
                  > members of the collection teams? What law prevents
                  > you from keeping "alien" materials that the government
                  > does not know about? Or are you saying that "they"
                  > know where the ALL are?
                  >
                  > Need you to think about this real hard: Knowing what
                  > a sieve the government is, how and WHY would they keep
                  > all this "alien" activity a secret for so long?
                  >
                  > _________________________________
                  > John D. Beatty, Milwaukee Wisconsin
                  > AMCIVWAR.COM/AMCIVWAR.NET
                  > "History is the only test for the consequences of ideas"
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > __________________________________________
                  > Yahoo! DSL – Something to write home about.
                  > Just $16.99/mo. or less.
                  > dsl.yahoo.com
                  >
                • antigray@cs.com
                  In a message dated 12/8/2005 5:53:28 AM Eastern Standard Time, ... ==================================== www.textfiles.com/ufo/ossette.ufo SPEECH FOR OSSETTE
                  Message 8 of 19 , Dec 8, 2005
                    In a message dated 12/8/2005 5:53:28 AM Eastern Standard Time, debunkingdebunkers@yahoogroups.com writes:

                    Message: 1        
                       Date: Wed, 7 Dec 2005 04:31:13 -0800 (PST)
                       From: John Beatty <jdbeatty.geo@...>
                    Subject: Re: Re:Re: Re: Alien Disclosure For The Holidays

                    >A law enforcement officer accused of pilfering debris
                    from space shuttle Columbia has been charged with
                    stealing government property.

                    Very good.  NOTHING to do with "advanced alien
                    technology," however.  You DO recognize that? 

                    Very clearly, "stealing government property" is NOT
                    the same as "posessing advanced alien technology."
                    Are you clear on the distinction?  If not, I'm certain
                    any first year law student can make it crystal clear.

                    >As I said, the govt. would claim that what crashed
                    >was their military craft
                    >and you would be prosecuted if you took pieces.

                    When has this ever happened?  Are you now claiming
                    that the shuttle was actually a crashed alien craft?

                    >They
                    >already did this with the government of South Africa
                    and forced them to turn over an alien craft that had
                    crashed there,

                    When did the US government violate South African
                    soveregnty and recover unknown artifacts from a
                    freindly power?  Using what law, court or other means
                    of coercion?  How did they hide all this from the mass
                    media?

                    >...even though the bodies were
                    >obviously alien.

                    And your proof for this is...?

                    >They even made
                    >the S. Africans fly it on one of their military
                    >cargo planes to the US because
                    >the S. African Air Force had shot it down.

                    How "advanced" would this spaceship be if it was shot
                    down by a third-rate air force? Why would they shoot
                    it down?   How was it established that the artifact
                    was "alien?" 

                    Now, what else have you got?  Where's the former
                    members of the collection teams?  What law prevents
                    you from keeping "alien" materials that the government
                    does not know about?  Or are you saying that "they"
                    know where the ALL are?

                    Need you to think about this real hard:  Knowing what
                    a sieve the government is, how and WHY would they keep
                    all this "alien" activity a secret for so long?

                    ====================================

                    www.textfiles.com/ufo/ossette.ufo
                    SPEECH FOR OSSETTE CONFERENCE SEPTEMBER, 1989. ---------------------------------------------- Start speech with the quotes from the MOD re UFO not coming under the Official Secrets Act. Then quote the American document. (Slide 1) The fact that we are such close allies. Also if UFO don't come under the Official Secrets Act why is it that so many are retained under the 30 year rule. I am Tony Dodd and my friend is Dr. Henry Azadehdel. Both Dr. Henry and myself were originally geared to speak about our own particular experiences in the UFO field, but due to information which came to us several weeks ago in relation to an alleged crashed UFO in South Africa, we have spent a considerable amount of time engaged in an in depth investigation into the information received. Due to the complex nature of the investigation both Dr. Henry and myself will take turns to speak and will hopefully give you a picture of the sequence of events as they occurred. You will be shown slides of certain documents which were passed to us and also of the person who passed the information. Unfortunately it has been necessary to blank out certain names and places but this has been done to protect the identity of our informant who is no longer in this country. He stated that he is a South African Air Force Intelligence Officer and would be charged with Treason in his own country should his identity be revealed. I have been corresponding with this man for a long time but was not aware of his Intelligence Connections until the last few weeks. At this stage I would point out as stated previously, that certain omissions have been made in the talk we are about to give. It is of the utmost importance that our sources of information are totally protected for their own safety. By protecting informants in this way we hope that other Intelligence sources will come forward and eventually the full picture of what is going on will emerge. If when we have finished giving details of this incident there is time we will be happy to answer questions but we reserve the right not to answer if we feel that our continuing enquiries or source of information would be compromised. ************************************ *** *** *** END OF PAGE 1 *** *** *** ************************************ During the first week in July I received correspondence from Mr. which stated that a UFO had crashed in the Kalahari Desert and ha been recovered by a team of South African Military personnel to secret Air Force base. He also informed me that two live alien entities had been found in the craft. The information also stated that a group of American Military personnel had arrived and had taken over the investigation. He stated that he would forward a copy of the Official South African Top Secret document to me but would send i later in a letter which would not contain any details of the sender in case the letter was intercepted. (Slide 2) A week later I received the document which consisted of five pages and was headed with the South African Air Force crest. Every page of the document was marked Top Secret. (Slide 3) The story told by the document was as follows: (Slide 4, 5, 6, 7, 8. At 1.45 pm on the 7th. May 1989 a Naval Frigate of the South African navy was at sea when it contacted Naval Headquarters to report an unidentified flying object on their radar scope, heading towards the South African continent in a North Westerly direction at a calculated speed of 5746 nautical miles per hour. This message was acknowledged and confirmed that the object was also being tracked by airborne radar and military ground radar installations. The object entered South African air space at 1.52 PM and at this time radio contact was attempted but to no avail. As a result two Mirage jet fighters were scrambled on an intercept course. At 1.59pm. Squadron leader ------- the pilot of one of the Mirage fighters stated over the intercom that they had radar and visual confirmation of the craft. The order was given to arm and fire the Thor 2 experimental laser canon. This was done. (Thor 2 is a Top Secret experimental beam weapon) The Squadron Leader reported several blinding flashes emanating from the object which had started wavering and it started to decrease speed and altitude at the rate of 3000 feet per minute. It eventually crashed at a 25 degree angle into the dessert in Botswana A recovery team was dispatched to the crash site where it was found that the UFO was embedded in the side of a large crater in the sand. The sand in the vicinity of the object was fused together due to the intense heat. One telescopic leg protruded from the side of the craft as if caused by the impact. Large recovery helicopters were flown to the site and the first one reaching the scene overflew the object at a height of 500 feet and immediately stalled and crashed. Five crew members were killed. It was found that vehicles approaching the object also developed engine trouble due to an intense electro magnetic field coming from the object. ************************************ *** *** *** END OF PAGE 2 *** *** *** ************************************ Eventually a paint like compound was received at the site and painted on the object which appeared to neutralize the magnetic field. The object was eventually conveyed to an Air Force Base and was taken to the sixth level underground. At this time it was totally intact. Whilst this was going on the American Team from Wright Patterson AFB arrived. Whilst the recovery team and scientists were mulling over the object their attention was suddenly attracted to a noise from the side of the craft. They noticed that an opening had appeared in the side. It was doorway but had only opened to a small gap. Attempts were made to open the door but without success so hydraulic pressure gear was used to force the door open. As soon as the door opened two small alien entities staggered out an were immediately arrested by security personnel present. A makeshift medical holding area was set up. One of the entities appeared to be seriously injured but doctors withdrew when one of them was attacked by one of the aliens. The attacked doctor received severe deep scratches to the face and chest from the claws of the alien. (Slide 8) Arrangements were made for the UFO and the aliens to be transported to Wright Patterson AFB, Dayton Ohio; USA As a result of this information a person who will remain unnamed telephoned the South African AFB where the Mirage Fighters had been scrambled. This man was a Private Investigator in America for many years and therefore well versed in speaking American. He asked to be connected to Squadron Leader XXXXXXXXXX the conversation went as follows: Is that Squadron Leader XXXXXXXXXXXXX REPLY Yes. QUESTION. This is General Brunel speaking from Wright Patterson. I have the document in front of me code named XXXXXXX REPLY. Yes. QUESTION. I am confused, this document does not say how many times you fired at the object. REPLY. Who did you say you were sir QUESTION. General Brunel, surely Squadron Leader it's a straight forward question, how many times did you fire at the darn thing. ************************************ *** *** *** END OF PAGE 3 *** *** *** ************************************ REPLY. I fired once sir, could you hang on so that I can go to safe phone. QUESTION. That won't be necessary Squadron Leader, you have told m what I wanted to know goodbye. --------------------------------- In the meantime military personnel were contacted in America to try to find out what was happening at Wright Pattterson AFB. REPLY. Can't get any information about arrival of UFO but established that Wright Patterson was put on Red Alert on 23rd. June, 1989. (This is the day the UFO was proported to be shipped to Wright Patterson.) ------------------------------------------------------------------ On July 31st. this year our informant arrived in this country and by prior arrangement took up temporary residence with Dr. Henry. He informed us that he was on route to Wright Patterson AFB on a military mission and would depart on the 6th. August. He contacted the South African Embassy from Dr. Henry's home to let them know where he was staying in case they needed to contact him. He later made a sworn statement to us confirming his story. (Slide 9) He had photographs taken with us (Slide 10. 11. 12.) We were informed that various hieroglyphics were found inside the craft and stated that the military had been unable to decipher them. (Slide 15) Dr. Will talk about this. He also did a drawing of the interior of the craft and the general layout. He also showed us and permitted us to photograph two NASA passes which were for his use at Wright Patterson AFB At this time we made contact with a second intelligence officer in South Africa who spoke to Dr. Henry personally. This officer told us that he had seen and had access to a series of black and white photographs of the captured aliens and their craft and a 50 page telex message from Wright Patterson AFB relating to the recovery of the UFO He stressed how dangerous it would be to get the papers but stated that he would forward a set of the black and white photographs and a copy of the telex as soon as he was able. One of the named American personnel who was present at the retrieval was later spoken to at Wright Patterson AFB by Dr Henry at the OSI department. (Henry Will speak about this) ************************************ *** *** *** END OF PAGE 4 *** *** *** ************************************ Within 24 hours our informant staying with Dr. Henry received a telephone call from the head of South African Intelligence informing him that the mission was cancelled and telling him to report back to Military Headquarters Pretoria forthwith where he would face a Court Martial. I will now hand over to Dr. Henry who will tell you of the series of events which took place at his home and of the various telephone calls which were made and received in the next few days. I NOW HAND OVER TO DR HENRY WHO WILL TELL YOU OF TELEPHONE CONVERSATIONS MADE BOTH TO AND FROM HIS HOME BY INTELLIGENCE SOURCE CONNECTED WITH OUR INFORMANT. INCLUDING A CONVERSATION WITH AN INTELLIGENCE OFFICER IN SOUTH AFRICA WORKING IN THE TOP SECRET DOCUMENTS AREA. ************************************ *** *** *** END OF PAGE 5 *** *** *** ************************************ ________________ | | | picture of | | winged bird | | crest | |______________| S O U T H A F R I C A N A I R F O R C E THIS FILE HAS BEEN CLASSIFIED BY D.A.F.I. INFORMATION NOT TO BE DIVULGED - TOP SECRET ************************************ *** *** *** END OF PAGE 6 *** *** *** ************************************ This page has a star and the bird crest at the top The page appears to be a cover/abstract page A PCX file (graphic) of this page is available in the UFONET I file library. Hopefully a GIF version of the file will be available shortly. ************************************ *** *** *** END OF PAGE 7 *** *** *** ************************************ ************************************ *** *** *** 14 Pages of Material follow *** *** but we are unable to convert *** *** via OCR due to inter mixed *** *** handwriting on the pages *** *** *** ************************************ The transcript of my telephone Conversation with the Chief of Military Intelligence in South Africa, Aug. 1989 ------------------------------------------------------------- Henry: H General: X H: Mr. X X: Yah. H: Hello, I am calling from Hawaii X: Yes... H: I would like to ask you about this UFO crash in Kalahari. X: You what? H: A UFO crash in Kalahari dessert. (Talking rather loud) X: I can't hear you very well, just say it again. H: A UFO crash in Kalahari desert, May 1989. X: May 89 ( Thinking about my above comments). B: Yes. X: Who is speaking? H: This is Jonnathan speaking from Hawaii. X: What is your surname? H: Jonnathan Smith. X: (He repeats my name, giving the impression of writing it down)'O.K., so WHAT DO YOU WANT TO KNOW? H: I want to know where did it go eventually? X: I can't hear you. H: Where did it go eventually? Did it go to Wright Paterson, or you kept it in South Africa after it crashed. X: WHY DO YOU WANT TO KNOW? H: Well. I've been investigating UFOS for 20 yoars. X: I think you...you are talking to wrong person, whore did you get my number? H: Well, we have contacts to get numbers everywhere. X: I CAN NOT GIVE YOU THAT INFORMATION: I'VE NOT GOT IT. H: It crashed in May 89, and was shippad to Wright Paterson in June, am I correct X: (stammering) No....n....no, I am not sure, I don't thinkyou have got the RIGHT information, whera did you get that? H: Well, information comes to us from all over thr world. X: What kind of crash was it? (Remember I had alraady told him) H: It was an Unidentified Flying Object. X: In the Kalahari? H: Yes. X: 19...? H: 1989, Botswanna. X: Ah...Ah..h..., No, I haven't got that information. I think perhaps it is a rumour. H: I think I would be very much surprised if it was a rumour. ************************************ *** *** *** END OF PAGE 22 *** *** *** ************************************ ******* X: (Now trying to meddle the subject) So, What are you saying? You are sitting in Hawaii and you got that information. Where did you get that?? H: As I said, we are operating a UFO network. X: Well...Ah...well, I can not give you ANY FURTHER INFORMATION, I do not know anything about it. --------------------------------------------------------------------- ************************************ *** *** *** END OF PAGE 23 *** *** *** ************************************ ************************************ *** *** *** 3 Pages of Material follow *** *** but we are unable to convert *** *** via OCR due to inter mixed *** *** handwriting on the pages *** *** *** ************************************ These 3 pages consist of a transcript of the telephone conversation between Dr. Henry Azadehdel and Mr. L at Wright Patterson September 15,1989.
                    ===================================

                    From: samilitaryhistory.org/research.html

                    From: Paul Carolus
                    e-mail: ashwinc@...
                    Subject: UFO shot down in SWA
                    Date posted: 13 May 2002 I have heard about an incident that happened in SWA, where a UFO was shot down by a South African pilot. I would like to include this happening in a book that I am writing,and would appreciate it if anyone with any knowledge on the subject who was on active duty in SWA in the 1970s and 1980s,could mail me.
                  • John Beatty
                    OK, more hearsay over hearsay, with no attributable sources. Got anything original? Got any ideas as to why this is being kept so secret? Got any real answers
                    Message 9 of 19 , Dec 11, 2005
                      OK, more hearsay over hearsay, with no attributable
                      sources.

                      Got anything original?

                      Got any ideas as to why this is being kept so secret?
                      Got any real answers for any other questions?

                      Come back when you can provide something like real
                      answers, not just something someone made up and cannot
                      verify.

                      By the way, South Africa's frigates didn't join the
                      fleet until 1996. Between 1971 and 1996 the largest
                      vessels they possessed were missile patrol boats.


                      _________________________________
                      John D. Beatty, Milwaukee Wisconsin
                      AMCIVWAR.COM/AMCIVWAR.NET
                      "History is the only test for the consequences of ideas"

                      __________________________________________________
                      Do You Yahoo!?
                      Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
                      http://mail.yahoo.com
                    • odd_empire
                      I think you may be wasting your time with this guy. He did the same thing over on JREF. Every time someone asked him a question he pasted a bunch of tripe.
                      Message 10 of 19 , Dec 12, 2005
                        I think you may be wasting your time with this guy. He did the same
                        thing over on JREF. Every time someone asked him a question he pasted
                        a bunch of tripe. Then acted indignant that people refused to sit
                        around for day s and analyze his piles of junk. No matter how many
                        layers you peel from this stuff it just gets deeper and sillier.

                        Did you see the place he got that text-wad? There's a lifetime of
                        silly crap in there!

                        www.textfiles.com/ufo

                        The Odd Emperor
                        http://www.oddempire.org



                        --- In debunkingdebunkers@yahoogroups.com, John Beatty
                        <jdbeatty.geo@y...> wrote:
                        >
                        > OK, more hearsay over hearsay, with no attributable
                        > sources.
                        >
                        > Got anything original?
                        >
                        > Got any ideas as to why this is being kept so secret?
                        > Got any real answers for any other questions?
                        >
                        > Come back when you can provide something like real
                        > answers, not just something someone made up and cannot
                        > verify.
                        >
                        > By the way, South Africa's frigates didn't join the
                        > fleet until 1996. Between 1971 and 1996 the largest
                        > vessels they possessed were missile patrol boats.
                        >
                        >
                        > _________________________________
                        > John D. Beatty, Milwaukee Wisconsin
                        > AMCIVWAR.COM/AMCIVWAR.NET
                        > "History is the only test for the consequences of ideas"
                        >
                        > __________________________________________________
                        > Do You Yahoo!?
                        > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
                        > http://mail.yahoo.com
                        >
                      • antigray@cs.com
                        In a message dated 12/13/2005 6:30:07 AM Eastern Standard Time, ... Hi Odd, If you had read what I posted at jref you would know that I was posting the proof
                        Message 11 of 19 , Dec 13, 2005
                          In a message dated 12/13/2005 6:30:07 AM Eastern Standard Time, debunkingdebunkers@yahoogroups.com writes:
                          Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2005 21:56:10 -0000
                             From: odd_empire
                          Subject: Re: Re:Re: Re: Alien Disclosure For The Holidays

                          I think you may be wasting your time with this guy. He did the same
                          thing over on JREF. Every time someone asked him a question he pasted
                          a bunch of tripe. Then acted indignant that people refused to sit
                          around for day s and analyze his piles of junk. No matter how many
                          layers you peel from this stuff it just gets deeper and sillier. 

                          Did you see the place he got that text-wad? There's a lifetime of
                          silly crap in there!

                          www.textfiles.com/ufo

                          The Odd Emperor
                          http://www.oddempire.org


                          Hi Odd,
                          If you had read what I posted at jref you would know that I was posting the proof that the members there were asking for. From my experience at jref I came to the conclusion that some people there were close-minded and did not want to read the truth (so they did not read my posts), others were unable to read more than a few sentences due to acute attention span disorders (they would say give only short answers, they couldn't handle long ones), and others that had reading comprehension problems. They would read what I wrote and say, "How could "X and Y" be true be true as you say?" I had been really referring to "A and B" but they either were not able to grasp the subject, or wanted to be able to shoot holes in it by pretending I had said something else.
                            Many of the subjects in the articles, and persons that are on that "text file" site list, I have debunked myself. I have never used any text from that site. I never saw it before till you posted the URL. Once again you have suffered the shame of premature evaluation.  LOL
                          Art 
                        • odd_empire
                          ... Hey Art! ... posting the ... jref I came ... not want ... That s extremely prejudicial. You never really discussed anything at JREF. As I recall, all you
                          Message 12 of 19 , Dec 13, 2005
                            > Hi Odd,

                            Hey Art!

                            > If you had read what I posted at jref you would know that I was
                            posting the
                            > proof that the members there were asking for. From my experience at
                            jref I came
                            > to the conclusion that some people there were close-minded and did
                            not want
                            > to read the truth


                            That's extremely prejudicial. You never really discussed anything at
                            JREF. As I recall, all you did was (as I already mentioned) post wads
                            and wads of text files you got from god knows where and pleaded with
                            people to purchase your book. People at JREF are not interested in
                            some self-proclaimed "proof." They want to discuss evidence and
                            listen to opinions. You can't go in there saying "this is a fact"
                            without some evidence to back you up. Those people would eat you for
                            lunch and as a matter of fact, they did!

                            (so they did not read my posts), others were unable to read
                            > more than a few sentences due to acute attention span disorders
                            (they would say
                            > give only short answers, they couldn't handle long ones), and
                            others that had
                            > reading comprehension problems.

                            No, you did something that's referred to as scatter-shot debate.
                            Instead of answering a question you raised ten others. Your apparent
                            stratagem was to confuse the issue not clarify your own position
                            (which is what people at JREF were asking you to do.)



                            They would read what I wrote and say, "How
                            > could "X and Y" be true be true as you say?" I had been really
                            referring to "A
                            > and B" but they either were not able to grasp the subject, or
                            wanted to be able
                            > to shoot holes in it by pretending I had said something else.
                            >

                            Then you may not understand what was going on there. Most of the
                            people at JREF can grasp far more than you might believe. There are
                            some exceptions to be sure but for the most part, it's a rather sober—
                            well moderated place.


                            Many of the subjects in the articles, and persons that are on
                            that "text
                            > file" site list, I have debunked myself. I have never used any text
                            from that
                            > site. I never saw it before till you posted the URL. Once again you
                            have
                            > suffered the shame of premature evaluation. LOL
                            > Art
                            >


                            Well I must take issue with you here.

                            Is this not you?

                            From antigray@... Thu Dec 08 18:25:39 2005
                            Return-Path: <ANTIGRAY@...>
                            X-Sender: ANTIGRAY@...
                            X-Apparently-To: debunkingdebunkers@yahoogroups.com
                            Received: (qmail 53447 invoked from network); 9 Dec 2005 02:25:36 -
                            0000
                            Received: from unknown (66.218.66.172)
                            by m27.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 9 Dec 2005 02:25:36 -0000
                            Received: from unknown (HELO imo-m24.mx.aol.com) (64.12.137.5)
                            by mta4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 9 Dec 2005 02:25:36 -0000
                            Received: from ANTIGRAY@...
                            by imo-m24.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v38_r6.3.) id r.13c.212fd4db (48552)
                            for <debunkingdebunkers@yahoogroups.com>; Thu, 8 Dec 2005 21:25:27 -
                            0500 (EST)
                            Message-ID: <13c.212fd4db.30ca4516@...>
                            Date: Thu, 8 Dec 2005 21:25:26 EST

                            And is this not what you posted? The URL is plainly on the top of
                            your pasted text. Did you not post this?


                            www.textfiles.com/ufo/ossette.ufo
                            SPEECH FOR OSSETTE CONFERENCE SEPTEMBER, 1989. -----------------------
                            ----------------------- Start speech with the quotes from the MOD re
                            UFO not coming under the Official Secrets Act. Then quote the
                            American document. (Slide 1) The fact that we are such close allies.
                            Also if UFO
                            <<snip>>


                            So, question; how is it you say

                            <i>"I have never used any text from that site. I never saw it before
                            till you posted the URL. Once again you have suffered the shame of
                            premature evaluation. LOL
                            Art " </i>

                            When you clearly cut and pasted a large chunk of text from that page?
                            Are you mistaken? Are you deliberately lying? Is someone else using
                            your Yahoo account?

                            Inquiring minds want to know!


                            The Odd Emperor
                            http://www.oddempire.org
                          • John Beatty
                            ... that I was posting the proof that the members there were asking for. Here you have posted nothing but hearsay. Give us something original, a source that
                            Message 13 of 19 , Dec 13, 2005
                              >If you had read what I posted at jref you would know
                              that I was posting the proof that the members there
                              were asking for.

                              Here you have posted nothing but hearsay. Give us
                              something original, a source that can be chased down.

                              >From my experience at jref I came to the conclusion
                              that some people there were close-minded and did not
                              want to read the truth (so they did not read my
                              posts), others were unable to read more than a few
                              sentences due to acute attention span disorders (they
                              would say give only short answers, they couldn't
                              handle long ones), and others that had reading
                              comprehension problems.

                              This is fairly typical of the scam artist, to proclaim
                              that their audience has something wrong with them....

                              >They would read what I wrote and say, "How could "X
                              and Y" be true be true as you say?" I had been really
                              referring to "A and B" but they either were not able
                              to grasp the subject, or wanted to be able to shoot
                              holes in it by pretending I had said something else.

                              And again.

                              You have proven nothing. You have made a lot of
                              claims and backed them up with hearsay. You have no
                              proof of any of your assertions. Your entire book is
                              more than likely the same.

                              _________________________________
                              John D. Beatty, Milwaukee Wisconsin
                              AMCIVWAR.COM/AMCIVWAR.NET
                              "History is the only test for the consequences of ideas"

                              __________________________________________________
                              Do You Yahoo!?
                              Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
                              http://mail.yahoo.com
                            • John Beatty
                              Forgive my ignorance, but what s this JREF place? ... _________________________________ John D. Beatty, Milwaukee Wisconsin AMCIVWAR.COM/AMCIVWAR.NET History
                              Message 14 of 19 , Dec 13, 2005
                                Forgive my ignorance, but what's this JREF place?

                                --- odd_empire <no_reply@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

                                >
                                > > Hi Odd,
                                >
                                > Hey Art!
                                >
                                > > If you had read what I posted at jref you would
                                > know that I was
                                > posting the
                                > > proof that the members there were asking for. From
                                > my experience at
                                > jref I came
                                > > to the conclusion that some people there were
                                > close-minded and did
                                > not want
                                > > to read the truth
                                >
                                >
                                > That's extremely prejudicial. You never really
                                > discussed anything at
                                > JREF. As I recall, all you did was (as I already
                                > mentioned) post wads
                                > and wads of text files you got from god knows where
                                > and pleaded with
                                > people to purchase your book. People at JREF are
                                > not interested in
                                > some self-proclaimed "proof." They want to discuss
                                > evidence and
                                > listen to opinions. You can't go in there saying
                                > "this is a fact"
                                > without some evidence to back you up. Those people
                                > would eat you for
                                > lunch and as a matter of fact, they did!
                                >
                                > (so they did not read my posts), others were unable
                                > to read
                                > > more than a few sentences due to acute attention
                                > span disorders
                                > (they would say
                                > > give only short answers, they couldn't handle long
                                > ones), and
                                > others that had
                                > > reading comprehension problems.
                                >
                                > No, you did something that's referred to as
                                > scatter-shot debate.
                                > Instead of answering a question you raised ten
                                > others. Your apparent
                                > stratagem was to confuse the issue not clarify your
                                > own position
                                > (which is what people at JREF were asking you to
                                > do.)
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > They would read what I wrote and say, "How
                                > > could "X and Y" be true be true as you say?" I had
                                > been really
                                > referring to "A
                                > > and B" but they either were not able to grasp the
                                > subject, or
                                > wanted to be able
                                > > to shoot holes in it by pretending I had said
                                > something else.
                                > >
                                >
                                > Then you may not understand what was going on there.
                                > Most of the
                                > people at JREF can grasp far more than you might
                                > believe. There are
                                > some exceptions to be sure but for the most part,
                                > it's a rather sober—
                                > well moderated place.
                                >
                                >
                                > Many of the subjects in the articles, and persons
                                > that are on
                                > that "text
                                > > file" site list, I have debunked myself. I have
                                > never used any text
                                > from that
                                > > site. I never saw it before till you posted the
                                > URL. Once again you
                                > have
                                > > suffered the shame of premature evaluation. LOL
                                > > Art
                                > >
                                >
                                >
                                > Well I must take issue with you here.
                                >
                                > Is this not you?
                                >
                                > From antigray@... Thu Dec 08 18:25:39 2005
                                > Return-Path: <ANTIGRAY@...>
                                > X-Sender: ANTIGRAY@...
                                > X-Apparently-To: debunkingdebunkers@yahoogroups.com
                                > Received: (qmail 53447 invoked from network); 9 Dec
                                > 2005 02:25:36 -
                                > 0000
                                > Received: from unknown (66.218.66.172)
                                > by m27.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 9 Dec 2005
                                > 02:25:36 -0000
                                > Received: from unknown (HELO imo-m24.mx.aol.com)
                                > (64.12.137.5)
                                > by mta4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 9 Dec 2005
                                > 02:25:36 -0000
                                > Received: from ANTIGRAY@...
                                > by imo-m24.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v38_r6.3.) id
                                > r.13c.212fd4db (48552)
                                > for <debunkingdebunkers@yahoogroups.com>; Thu, 8 Dec
                                > 2005 21:25:27 -
                                > 0500 (EST)
                                > Message-ID: <13c.212fd4db.30ca4516@...>
                                > Date: Thu, 8 Dec 2005 21:25:26 EST
                                >
                                > And is this not what you posted? The URL is plainly
                                > on the top of
                                > your pasted text. Did you not post this?
                                >
                                >
                                > www.textfiles.com/ufo/ossette.ufo
                                > SPEECH FOR OSSETTE CONFERENCE SEPTEMBER, 1989.
                                > -----------------------
                                > ----------------------- Start speech with the quotes
                                > from the MOD re
                                > UFO not coming under the Official Secrets Act. Then
                                > quote the
                                > American document. (Slide 1) The fact that we are
                                > such close allies.
                                > Also if UFO
                                > <<snip>>
                                >
                                >
                                > So, question; how is it you say
                                >
                                > <i>"I have never used any text from that site. I
                                > never saw it before
                                > till you posted the URL. Once again you have
                                > suffered the shame of
                                > premature evaluation. LOL
                                > Art " </i>
                                >
                                > When you clearly cut and pasted a large chunk of
                                > text from that page?
                                > Are you mistaken? Are you deliberately lying? Is
                                > someone else using
                                > your Yahoo account?
                                >
                                > Inquiring minds want to know!
                                >
                                >
                                > The Odd Emperor
                                > http://www.oddempire.org
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >


                                _________________________________
                                John D. Beatty, Milwaukee Wisconsin
                                AMCIVWAR.COM/AMCIVWAR.NET
                                "History is the only test for the consequences of ideas"

                                __________________________________________________
                                Do You Yahoo!?
                                Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
                                http://mail.yahoo.com
                              • odd_empire
                                Oh no problem. The James Randi Educational Foundation. A kind of skeptics hangout. Uniformly despised by believers everywhere. http://www.randi.org/ The Odd
                                Message 15 of 19 , Dec 13, 2005
                                  Oh no problem. The James Randi Educational Foundation. A kind of
                                  skeptics hangout. Uniformly despised by believers everywhere.

                                  http://www.randi.org/

                                  The Odd Emperor
                                  http://www.odempire.org




                                  --- In debunkingdebunkers@yahoogroups.com, John Beatty
                                  <jdbeatty.geo@y...> wrote:
                                  >
                                  > Forgive my ignorance, but what's this JREF place?
                                  >
                                  > --- odd_empire <no_reply@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
                                  >
                                  > >
                                  > > > Hi Odd,
                                  > >
                                  > > Hey Art!
                                  > >
                                  > > > If you had read what I posted at jref you would
                                  > > know that I was
                                  > > posting the
                                  > > > proof that the members there were asking for. From
                                  > > my experience at
                                  > > jref I came
                                  > > > to the conclusion that some people there were
                                  > > close-minded and did
                                  > > not want
                                  > > > to read the truth
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > > That's extremely prejudicial. You never really
                                  > > discussed anything at
                                  > > JREF. As I recall, all you did was (as I already
                                  > > mentioned) post wads
                                  > > and wads of text files you got from god knows where
                                  > > and pleaded with
                                  > > people to purchase your book. People at JREF are
                                  > > not interested in
                                  > > some self-proclaimed "proof." They want to discuss
                                  > > evidence and
                                  > > listen to opinions. You can't go in there saying
                                  > > "this is a fact"
                                  > > without some evidence to back you up. Those people
                                  > > would eat you for
                                  > > lunch and as a matter of fact, they did!
                                  > >
                                  > > (so they did not read my posts), others were unable
                                  > > to read
                                  > > > more than a few sentences due to acute attention
                                  > > span disorders
                                  > > (they would say
                                  > > > give only short answers, they couldn't handle long
                                  > > ones), and
                                  > > others that had
                                  > > > reading comprehension problems.
                                  > >
                                  > > No, you did something that's referred to as
                                  > > scatter-shot debate.
                                  > > Instead of answering a question you raised ten
                                  > > others. Your apparent
                                  > > stratagem was to confuse the issue not clarify your
                                  > > own position
                                  > > (which is what people at JREF were asking you to
                                  > > do.)
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > > They would read what I wrote and say, "How
                                  > > > could "X and Y" be true be true as you say?" I had
                                  > > been really
                                  > > referring to "A
                                  > > > and B" but they either were not able to grasp the
                                  > > subject, or
                                  > > wanted to be able
                                  > > > to shoot holes in it by pretending I had said
                                  > > something else.
                                  > > >
                                  > >
                                  > > Then you may not understand what was going on there.
                                  > > Most of the
                                  > > people at JREF can grasp far more than you might
                                  > > believe. There are
                                  > > some exceptions to be sure but for the most part,
                                  > > it's a rather sober—
                                  > > well moderated place.
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > > Many of the subjects in the articles, and persons
                                  > > that are on
                                  > > that "text
                                  > > > file" site list, I have debunked myself. I have
                                  > > never used any text
                                  > > from that
                                  > > > site. I never saw it before till you posted the
                                  > > URL. Once again you
                                  > > have
                                  > > > suffered the shame of premature evaluation. LOL
                                  > > > Art
                                  > > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > > Well I must take issue with you here.
                                  > >
                                  > > Is this not you?
                                  > >
                                  > > From antigray@ Thu Dec 08 18:25:39 2005
                                  > > Return-Path: <ANTIGRAY@>
                                  > > X-Sender: ANTIGRAY@
                                  > > X-Apparently-To: debunkingdebunkers@yahoogroups.com
                                  > > Received: (qmail 53447 invoked from network); 9 Dec
                                  > > 2005 02:25:36 -
                                  > > 0000
                                  > > Received: from unknown (66.218.66.172)
                                  > > by m27.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 9 Dec 2005
                                  > > 02:25:36 -0000
                                  > > Received: from unknown (HELO imo-m24.mx.aol.com)
                                  > > (64.12.137.5)
                                  > > by mta4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 9 Dec 2005
                                  > > 02:25:36 -0000
                                  > > Received: from ANTIGRAY@
                                  > > by imo-m24.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v38_r6.3.) id
                                  > > r.13c.212fd4db (48552)
                                  > > for <debunkingdebunkers@yahoogroups.com>; Thu, 8 Dec
                                  > > 2005 21:25:27 -
                                  > > 0500 (EST)
                                  > > Message-ID: <13c.212fd4db.30ca4516@>
                                  > > Date: Thu, 8 Dec 2005 21:25:26 EST
                                  > >
                                  > > And is this not what you posted? The URL is plainly
                                  > > on the top of
                                  > > your pasted text. Did you not post this?
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > > www.textfiles.com/ufo/ossette.ufo
                                  > > SPEECH FOR OSSETTE CONFERENCE SEPTEMBER, 1989.
                                  > > -----------------------
                                  > > ----------------------- Start speech with the quotes
                                  > > from the MOD re
                                  > > UFO not coming under the Official Secrets Act. Then
                                  > > quote the
                                  > > American document. (Slide 1) The fact that we are
                                  > > such close allies.
                                  > > Also if UFO
                                  > > <<snip>>
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > > So, question; how is it you say
                                  > >
                                  > > <i>"I have never used any text from that site. I
                                  > > never saw it before
                                  > > till you posted the URL. Once again you have
                                  > > suffered the shame of
                                  > > premature evaluation. LOL
                                  > > Art " </i>
                                  > >
                                  > > When you clearly cut and pasted a large chunk of
                                  > > text from that page?
                                  > > Are you mistaken? Are you deliberately lying? Is
                                  > > someone else using
                                  > > your Yahoo account?
                                  > >
                                  > > Inquiring minds want to know!
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > > The Odd Emperor
                                  > > http://www.oddempire.org
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > _________________________________
                                  > John D. Beatty, Milwaukee Wisconsin
                                  > AMCIVWAR.COM/AMCIVWAR.NET
                                  > "History is the only test for the consequences of ideas"
                                  >
                                  > __________________________________________________
                                  > Do You Yahoo!?
                                  > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
                                  > http://mail.yahoo.com
                                  >
                                • James N. Dawson
                                  Art: I don t generally agree with John Beatty and Odd Empire on skepticism and what constitutes a reasonable theory of UFO s and other prima facie
                                  Message 16 of 19 , Dec 21, 2005
                                    Art:

                                    I don't generally agree with John Beatty and Odd Empire
                                    on "skepticism" and what constitutes a reasonable theory of UFO's and
                                    other prima facie unexplained phenomena, but in this particular case,
                                    I would have to say, from what I was able to plow through of them,
                                    your "textfiles" looked pretty much like "hearsay".

                                    They may provide some worthwhile leads for the full-time
                                    investigator, but they're not going to impress even a moderate
                                    disbeliever.

                                    This is what you'd need rather than a mere transcript of a phone
                                    call:

                                    A recording of the conversation itself that could be subjected to
                                    some kind of computer or other analysis.

                                    Video of the actual person saying these things, would be good (though
                                    not necessarily conclusive) evidence for me.

                                    As far as documents, you need something on official government
                                    stationary which you could scan and put on the net. Admittedly this
                                    could be faked, but it would be better than just a transcription. (I
                                    saw the Joe Nickels critique of the MJ-12 documents, and found them,
                                    as usual, pretty snide and shoddy. Stanton Friedman answered them
                                    well and convincingly---though these are seperate questions whether
                                    these documents are ultimately genuine.)

                                    I don't think saying that people are too stupid and lazy to read
                                    these textfiles is very convincing. I printed mine out and hoped to
                                    go through them myself, but boy, they are dense and unreadable. If
                                    you want people to read the evidence, you've got to make it a little
                                    easier, and paragraph breaks and section titles certainly would help
                                    to do that. Also, I don't understand the necessity of highlighting
                                    whole text. It defeats the whole purpose of hightlighting.

                                    In the final analysis, I'm not sure if trying to engage with the
                                    conventionalists (those who call themselves "skeptics" but are only
                                    skeptical toward anything that to them, on an emotional level, is out
                                    of the ordinary or a minority view, that doesn't adhere to a rigid
                                    Cartesian model of 17th century science, etc.) Since they seem to be
                                    demanding "absolute proof" for everything, you can never, even
                                    theoretically, satisfy them, because in forensics and even the hard
                                    science, there's always an element of doubt or uncertainty.

                                    So, I've pretty much come to the conclusion, arguing with such people
                                    is largely an exercise in futility, and the exact psychological
                                    motivations for their militant disbelief is perhaps something of a
                                    mystery in itself!

                                    James

                                    > ====================================
                                    >
                                    > www.textfiles.com/ufo/ossette.ufo
                                    > SPEECH FOR OSSETTE CONFERENCE SEPTEMBER, 1989.
                                    > ---------------------------------------------- Start speech with
                                    the quotes from the MOD re UFO not coming
                                    > under the Official Secrets Act. Then quote the American document.
                                    (Slide 1) The
                                    > fact that we are such close allies. Also if UFO don't come under
                                    the Official
                                    > Secrets Act why is it that so many are retained under the 30 year
                                    rule. I am
                                    > Tony Dodd and my friend is Dr. Henry Azadehdel. Both Dr. Henry and
                                    myself were
                                    > originally geared to speak about our own particular experiences in
                                    the UFO
                                    > field, but due to information which came to us several weeks ago in
                                    relation to
                                    > an alleged crashed UFO in South Africa, we have spent a
                                    considerable amount of
                                    > time engaged in an in depth investigation into the information
                                    received. Due
                                    > to the complex nature of the investigation both Dr. Henry and
                                    myself will take
                                    > turns to speak and will hopefully give you a picture of the
                                    sequence of
                                    > events as they occurred. You will be shown slides of certain
                                    documents which were
                                    > passed to us and also of the person who passed the information.
                                    Unfortunately
                                    > it has been necessary to blank out certain names and places but
                                    this has been
                                    > done to protect the identity of our informant who is no longer in
                                    this country.
                                    > He stated that he is a South African Air Force Intelligence Officer
                                    and would
                                    > be charged with Treason in his own country should his identity be
                                    revealed. I
                                    > have been corresponding with this man for a long time but was not
                                    aware of
                                    > his Intelligence Connections until the last few weeks. At this
                                    stage I would
                                    > point out as stated previously, that certain omissions have been
                                    made in the talk
                                    > we are about to give. It is of the utmost importance that our
                                    sources of
                                    > information are totally protected for their own safety. By
                                    protecting informants
                                    > in this way we hope that other Intelligence sources will come
                                    forward and
                                    > eventually the full picture of what is going on will emerge. If
                                    when we have
                                    > finished giving details of this incident there is time we will be
                                    happy to answer
                                    > questions but we reserve the right not to answer if we feel that
                                    our continuing
                                    > enquiries or source of information would be compromised.
                                    > ************************************ *** *** *** END OF PAGE 1 ***
                                    *** ***
                                    > ************************************ During the first week in July
                                    I received correspondence from Mr.
                                    > which stated that a UFO had crashed in the Kalahari Desert and ha
                                    been
                                    > recovered by a team of South African Military personnel to secret
                                    Air Force base. He
                                    > also informed me that two live alien entities had been found in the
                                    craft. The
                                    > information also stated that a group of American Military personnel
                                    had
                                    > arrived and had taken over the investigation. He stated that he
                                    would forward a
                                    > copy of the Official South African Top Secret document to me but
                                    would send i
                                    > later in a letter which would not contain any details of the sender
                                    in case the
                                    > letter was intercepted. (Slide 2) A week later I received the
                                    document which
                                    > consisted of five pages and was headed with the South African Air
                                    Force crest.
                                    > Every page of the document was marked Top Secret. (Slide 3) The
                                    story told by
                                    > the document was as follows: (Slide 4, 5, 6, 7, 8. At 1.45 pm on
                                    the 7th. May
                                    > 1989 a Naval Frigate of the South African navy was at sea when it
                                    contacted
                                    > Naval Headquarters to report an unidentified flying object on their
                                    radar scope,
                                    > heading towards the South African continent in a North Westerly
                                    direction at a
                                    > calculated speed of 5746 nautical miles per hour. This message was
                                    > acknowledged and confirmed that the object was also being tracked
                                    by airborne radar and
                                    > military ground radar installations. The object entered South
                                    African air
                                    > space at 1.52 PM and at this time radio contact was attempted but
                                    to no avail. As
                                    > a result two Mirage jet fighters were scrambled on an intercept
                                    course. At
                                    > 1.59pm. Squadron leader ------- the pilot of one of the Mirage
                                    fighters stated
                                    > over the intercom that they had radar and visual confirmation of
                                    the craft. The
                                    > order was given to arm and fire the Thor 2 experimental laser
                                    canon. This was
                                    > done. (Thor 2 is a Top Secret experimental beam weapon) The
                                    Squadron Leader
                                    > reported several blinding flashes emanating from the object which
                                    had started
                                    > wavering and it started to decrease speed and altitude at the rate
                                    of 3000 feet
                                    > per minute. It eventually crashed at a 25 degree angle into the
                                    dessert in
                                    > Botswana A recovery team was dispatched to the crash site where it
                                    was found that
                                    > the UFO was embedded in the side of a large crater in the sand. The
                                    sand in
                                    > the vicinity of the object was fused together due to the intense
                                    heat. One
                                    > telescopic leg protruded from the side of the craft as if caused by
                                    the impact.
                                    > Large recovery helicopters were flown to the site and the first one
                                    reaching the
                                    > scene overflew the object at a height of 500 feet and immediately
                                    stalled and
                                    > crashed. Five crew members were killed. It was found that vehicles
                                    > approaching the object also developed engine trouble due to an
                                    intense electro magnetic
                                    > field coming from the object. ************************************
                                    *** *** ***
                                    > END OF PAGE 2 *** *** *** ************************************
                                    Eventually a
                                    > paint like compound was received at the site and painted on the
                                    object which
                                    > appeared to neutralize the magnetic field. The object was
                                    eventually conveyed to
                                    > an Air Force Base and was taken to the sixth level underground. At
                                    this time
                                    > it was totally intact. Whilst this was going on the American Team
                                    from Wright
                                    > Patterson AFB arrived. Whilst the recovery team and scientists were
                                    mulling
                                    > over the object their attention was suddenly attracted to a noise
                                    from the side
                                    > of the craft. They noticed that an opening had appeared in the
                                    side. It was
                                    > doorway but had only opened to a small gap. Attempts were made to
                                    open the door
                                    > but without success so hydraulic pressure gear was used to force
                                    the door
                                    > open. As soon as the door opened two small alien entities staggered
                                    out an were
                                    > immediately arrested by security personnel present. A makeshift
                                    medical holding
                                    > area was set up. One of the entities appeared to be seriously
                                    injured but
                                    > doctors withdrew when one of them was attacked by one of the
                                    aliens. The attacked
                                    > doctor received severe deep scratches to the face and chest from
                                    the claws of
                                    > the alien. (Slide 8) Arrangements were made for the UFO and the
                                    aliens to be
                                    > transported to Wright Patterson AFB, Dayton Ohio; USA As a result
                                    of this
                                    > information a person who will remain unnamed telephoned the South
                                    African AFB where
                                    > the Mirage Fighters had been scrambled. This man was a Private
                                    Investigator
                                    > in America for many years and therefore well versed in speaking
                                    American. He
                                    > asked to be connected to Squadron Leader XXXXXXXXXX the
                                    conversation went as
                                    > follows: Is that Squadron Leader XXXXXXXXXXXXX REPLY Yes. QUESTION.
                                    This is
                                    > General Brunel speaking from Wright Patterson. I have the document
                                    in front of me
                                    > code named XXXXXXX REPLY. Yes. QUESTION. I am confused, this
                                    document does not
                                    > say how many times you fired at the object. REPLY. Who did you say
                                    you were
                                    > sir QUESTION. General Brunel, surely Squadron Leader it's a
                                    straight forward
                                    > question, how many times did you fire at the darn thing.
                                    > ************************************ *** *** *** END OF PAGE 3 ***
                                    *** ***
                                    > ************************************ REPLY. I fired once sir, could
                                    you hang on so that I can go to safe
                                    > phone. QUESTION. That won't be necessary Squadron Leader, you have
                                    told m what
                                    > I wanted to know goodbye. --------------------------------- In the
                                    meantime
                                    > military personnel were contacted in America to try to find out
                                    what was
                                    > happening at Wright Pattterson AFB. REPLY. Can't get any
                                    information about arrival
                                    > of UFO but established that Wright Patterson was put on Red Alert
                                    on 23rd.
                                    > June, 1989. (This is the day the UFO was proported to be shipped to
                                    Wright
                                    > Patterson.) --------------------------------------------------------
                                    ---------- On
                                    > July 31st. this year our informant arrived in this country and by
                                    prior
                                    > arrangement took up temporary residence with Dr. Henry. He informed
                                    us that he was on
                                    > route to Wright Patterson AFB on a military mission and would
                                    depart on the
                                    > 6th. August. He contacted the South African Embassy from Dr.
                                    Henry's home to let
                                    > them know where he was staying in case they needed to contact him.
                                    He later
                                    > made a sworn statement to us confirming his story. (Slide 9) He had
                                    photographs
                                    > taken with us (Slide 10. 11. 12.) We were informed that various
                                    hieroglyphics
                                    > were found inside the craft and stated that the military had been
                                    unable to
                                    > decipher them. (Slide 15) Dr. Will talk about this. He also did a
                                    drawing of the
                                    > interior of the craft and the general layout. He also showed us and
                                    permitted
                                    > us to photograph two NASA passes which were for his use at Wright
                                    Patterson
                                    > AFB At this time we made contact with a second intelligence officer
                                    in South
                                    > Africa who spoke to Dr. Henry personally. This officer told us that
                                    he had seen
                                    > and had access to a series of black and white photographs of the
                                    captured
                                    > aliens and their craft and a 50 page telex message from Wright
                                    Patterson AFB
                                    > relating to the recovery of the UFO He stressed how dangerous it
                                    would be to get
                                    > the papers but stated that he would forward a set of the black and
                                    white
                                    > photographs and a copy of the telex as soon as he was able. One of
                                    the named American
                                    > personnel who was present at the retrieval was later spoken to at
                                    Wright
                                    > Patterson AFB by Dr Henry at the OSI department. (Henry Will speak
                                    about this)
                                    > ************************************ *** *** *** END OF PAGE 4 ***
                                    *** ***
                                    > ************************************ Within 24 hours our informant
                                    staying with Dr.
                                    > Henry received a telephone call from the head of South African
                                    Intelligence
                                    > informing him that the mission was cancelled and telling him to
                                    report back to
                                    > Military Headquarters Pretoria forthwith where he would face a
                                    Court Martial. I
                                    > will now hand over to Dr. Henry who will tell you of the series of
                                    events
                                    > which took place at his home and of the various telephone calls
                                    which were made
                                    > and received in the next few days. I NOW HAND OVER TO DR HENRY WHO
                                    WILL TELL
                                    > YOU OF TELEPHONE CONVERSATIONS MADE BOTH TO AND FROM HIS HOME BY
                                    INTELLIGENCE
                                    > SOURCE CONNECTED WITH OUR INFORMANT. INCLUDING A CONVERSATION WITH
                                    AN
                                    > INTELLIGENCE OFFICER IN SOUTH AFRICA WORKING IN THE TOP SECRET
                                    DOCUMENTS AREA.
                                    > ************************************ *** *** *** END OF PAGE 5 ***
                                    *** ***
                                    > ************************************ ________________ | | | picture
                                    of | | winged bird | |
                                    > crest | |______________| S O U T H A F R I C A N A I R F O R C E
                                    THIS FILE
                                    > HAS BEEN CLASSIFIED BY D.A.F.I. INFORMATION NOT TO BE DIVULGED -
                                    TOP SECRET
                                    > ************************************ *** *** *** END OF PAGE 6 ***
                                    *** ***
                                    > ************************************ This page has a star and the
                                    bird crest at the
                                    > top The page appears to be a cover/abstract page A PCX file
                                    (graphic) of this
                                    > page is available in the UFONET I file library. Hopefully a GIF
                                    version of the
                                    > file will be available shortly.
                                    ************************************ *** ***
                                    > *** END OF PAGE 7 *** *** *** ************************************
                                    > ************************************ *** *** *** 14 Pages of
                                    Material follow *** *** but
                                    > we are unable to convert *** *** via OCR due to inter mixed *** ***
                                    handwriting
                                    > on the pages *** *** *** ************************************ The
                                    transcript
                                    > of my telephone Conversation with the Chief of Military
                                    Intelligence in South
                                    > Africa, Aug. 1989
                                    > -------------------------------------------------------------
                                    Henry: H General: X H: Mr. X X: Yah. H: Hello, I am calling from
                                    Hawaii X:
                                    > Yes... H: I would like to ask you about this UFO crash in Kalahari.
                                    X: You
                                    > what? H: A UFO crash in Kalahari dessert. (Talking rather loud) X:
                                    I can't hear
                                    > you very well, just say it again. H: A UFO crash in Kalahari
                                    desert, May 1989.
                                    > X: May 89 ( Thinking about my above comments). B: Yes. X: Who is
                                    speaking? H:
                                    > This is Jonnathan speaking from Hawaii. X: What is your surname? H:
                                    Jonnathan
                                    > Smith. X: (He repeats my name, giving the impression of writing it
                                    down)'O.K.,
                                    > so WHAT DO YOU WANT TO KNOW? H: I want to know where did it go
                                    eventually? X:
                                    > I can't hear you. H: Where did it go eventually? Did it go to
                                    Wright Paterson,
                                    > or you kept it in South Africa after it crashed. X: WHY DO YOU WANT
                                    TO KNOW?
                                    > H: Well. I've been investigating UFOS for 20 yoars. X: I think
                                    you...you are
                                    > talking to wrong person, whore did you get my number? H: Well, we
                                    have contacts
                                    > to get numbers everywhere. X: I CAN NOT GIVE YOU THAT INFORMATION:
                                    I'VE NOT
                                    > GOT IT. H: It crashed in May 89, and was shippad to Wright Paterson
                                    in June, am
                                    > I correct X: (stammering) No....n....no, I am not sure, I don't
                                    thinkyou have
                                    > got the RIGHT information, whera did you get that? H: Well,
                                    information comes
                                    > to us from all over thr world. X: What kind of crash was it?
                                    (Remember I had
                                    > alraady told him) H: It was an Unidentified Flying Object. X: In
                                    the Kalahari?
                                    > H: Yes. X: 19...? H: 1989, Botswanna. X: Ah...Ah..h..., No, I
                                    haven't got
                                    > that information. I think perhaps it is a rumour. H: I think I
                                    would be very much
                                    > surprised if it was a rumour. ************************************
                                    *** ***
                                    > *** END OF PAGE 22 *** *** *** ************************************
                                    ******* X:
                                    > (Now trying to meddle the subject) So, What are you saying? You are
                                    sitting in
                                    > Hawaii and you got that information. Where did you get that?? H: As
                                    I said, we
                                    > are operating a UFO network. X: Well...Ah...well, I can not give
                                    you ANY
                                    > FURTHER INFORMATION, I do not know anything about it.
                                    > --------------------------------------------------------------------
                                    - ************************************
                                    > *** *** *** END OF PAGE 23 *** *** ***
                                    ************************************
                                    > ************************************ *** *** *** 3 Pages of
                                    Material follow ***
                                    > *** but we are unable to convert *** *** via OCR due to inter mixed
                                    *** ***
                                    > handwriting on the pages *** *** ***
                                    ************************************ These
                                    > 3 pages consist of a transcript of the telephone conversation
                                    between Dr.
                                    > Henry Azadehdel and Mr. L at Wright Patterson September 15,1989.
                                    > ===================================
                                    >
                                    > From: samilitaryhistory.org/research.html
                                    >
                                    > From: Paul Carolus
                                    > e-mail: ashwinc@m...
                                    > Subject: UFO shot down in SWA
                                    > Date posted: 13 May 2002 I have heard about an incident that
                                    happened in SWA,
                                    > where a UFO was shot down by a South African pilot. I would like to
                                    include
                                    > this happening in a book that I am writing,and would appreciate it
                                    if anyone
                                    > with any knowledge on the subject who was on active duty in SWA in
                                    the 1970s and
                                    > 1980s,could mail me.
                                    >
                                  • odd_empire
                                    ... You know, much of this time I think arguing with jingoistic, insulting, over emoting irrationalists is a waste too. I do enjoy debating points of view
                                    Message 17 of 19 , Dec 24, 2005
                                      --- In debunkingdebunkers@yahoogroups.com, "James N. Dawson"
                                      <jamesndawson@y...> wrote:
                                      >
                                      > Art:
                                      >
                                      > I don't generally agree with John Beatty and Odd Empire
                                      > on "skepticism" and what constitutes a reasonable theory of UFO's and
                                      > other prima facie unexplained phenomena, but in this particular case,
                                      > I would have to say, from what I was able to plow through of them,
                                      > your "textfiles" looked pretty much like "hearsay".
                                      >
                                      > They may provide some worthwhile leads for the full-time
                                      > investigator, but they're not going to impress even a moderate
                                      > disbeliever.
                                      >
                                      > This is what you'd need rather than a mere transcript of a phone
                                      > call:
                                      >
                                      > A recording of the conversation itself that could be subjected to
                                      > some kind of computer or other analysis.
                                      >
                                      > Video of the actual person saying these things, would be good (though
                                      > not necessarily conclusive) evidence for me.
                                      >
                                      > As far as documents, you need something on official government
                                      > stationary which you could scan and put on the net. Admittedly this
                                      > could be faked, but it would be better than just a transcription. (I
                                      > saw the Joe Nickels critique of the MJ-12 documents, and found them,
                                      > as usual, pretty snide and shoddy. Stanton Friedman answered them
                                      > well and convincingly---though these are seperate questions whether
                                      > these documents are ultimately genuine.)
                                      >
                                      > I don't think saying that people are too stupid and lazy to read
                                      > these textfiles is very convincing. I printed mine out and hoped to
                                      > go through them myself, but boy, they are dense and unreadable. If
                                      > you want people to read the evidence, you've got to make it a little
                                      > easier, and paragraph breaks and section titles certainly would help
                                      > to do that. Also, I don't understand the necessity of highlighting
                                      > whole text. It defeats the whole purpose of hightlighting.
                                      >
                                      > In the final analysis, I'm not sure if trying to engage with the
                                      > conventionalists (those who call themselves "skeptics" but are only
                                      > skeptical toward anything that to them, on an emotional level, is out
                                      > of the ordinary or a minority view, that doesn't adhere to a rigid
                                      > Cartesian model of 17th century science, etc.) Since they seem to be
                                      > demanding "absolute proof" for everything, you can never, even
                                      > theoretically, satisfy them, because in forensics and even the hard
                                      > science, there's always an element of doubt or uncertainty.
                                      >


                                      You know, much of this time I think arguing with jingoistic,
                                      insulting, over emoting irrationalists is a waste too. I do enjoy
                                      debating points of view because frankly, I'm fascinated with people
                                      who think differently than I do. Not afraid of them like some people
                                      seem to be. Just fascinated.

                                      Most people strictly applying 17th century models of science are
                                      pretty crazy, you know. Witches, psychologists and other heretics
                                      should be burned at the stake. That kind of thing.

                                      Know anyone like that me-bucko? And I don't think anyone's demanding
                                      absolute proof here. Just a little evidence would be nice. What Art
                                      (and apparently you) think is evidence is not really, it's data and
                                      not very good data at that.


                                      > So, I've pretty much come to the conclusion, arguing with such people
                                      > is largely an exercise in futility, and the exact psychological
                                      > motivations for their militant disbelief is perhaps something of a
                                      > mystery in itself!

                                      It's also a lot easier to validate your own beliefs without us
                                      unbelievers mucking up the process. OK, I hear you! Skeptics are all
                                      stupid, skeptics are all evil. Skeptics should all be ignored.

                                      If you truly believe that, you yourself are following good old
                                      fashioned 17th century values. Check your history books on the
                                      conditions of early Renaissance Europe and see for yourself. Also, try
                                      arguing a point using non emotive language and see how skeptics react.


                                      You have a great holiday my man!
                                    Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.