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Re: [Death To Religion] spirituality

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  • twoedgedsword
    Maurice Said: One thing I have noticed is that, as a general rule, athiests tend to behave more morally than believers... I think atheists behave more morally
    Message 1 of 5 , Sep 15, 2003
      Maurice Said:

      "One thing I have noticed is that, as a general rule, athiests tend
      to behave more morally than believers... I think atheists behave more
      morally because they know they must take personal responsibility for
      their morality, whereas Christians can just go to confession or get
      baptized."

      Then he said

      "I want to point out that atheism is not a belief system. Believers
      like to characterize it as such, but that is not the case. There is no
      atheist creed to which atheists must subscribe; no dogmas, no
      rituals, no articles of faith. Atheism is the freedom from such
      things, and freedom from supernaturalism and superstition. But
      individual atheists vary widely in what they find intellectually
      acceptable. One on this group finds the idea of moral absolutes
      acceptable, which astonishes me."

      --
      OK:

      Atheists "behave... morally" even *more* morally than 'believers'.
      Somehow they accomplish this despite a "wide variety" of that which
      is "intellectually acceptable". And at the same time, you're
      astonished over the idea of support for moral absolutes. There's a
      pretty large logical conundrum there. Without a finite "set" of
      morals, how can you measure (as in "more moral") the morality of one
      kind over another?

      You could be a UU - then you can invent whatever definition of
      morality you wish and therefore your statement of you and your kind
      being *more moral* than another kind would be true as can be (for
      what it's worth). Oooops, that won't work either. I forgot about
      dogma, superstition etc.

      By inferrence, you seem to state that 'believers' are not free from
      those rituals or dogmas, even superstitions. That characterizes every
      religious order as having those attributes. That's an incorrect
      attribution - and blatantly so.

      You know, I'm always telling my kids "Behave will ya?". I guess
      behavior is important afterall. Where do I get such a notion?????
      Thank God for atheism then?

      But on "articles of faith"? Just put your hand on the left side of
      your chest, feel your heart beating, and understand that there's no
      escape from faith as long as that machine's pumping man - like it or
      not.

      Someone needs to rename this group 'Death To Logic' or better
      yet 'Plllllease.... ANYTHING But GOD, ack!'.
    • Lovejoe1
      I see different spiritualities when I look at the hawk with a snake in its mouth. What is the meaning of life for the hawk and what is it for the snake?
      Message 2 of 5 , Sep 18, 2003
        I see different spiritualities when I look at the hawk
        with a snake in its mouth. What is the meaning of life
        for the hawk and what is it for the snake?

        Imagine the moment; hawk is laughing and creeking:
        "God! thank you for the supper".
        While snake is crying for its wounds and whistling:
        "God! Where are you? Is this your justice? What is the meaning of my
        life for you, dammit"
        Think that the same snake was eating a funny frog last night!
        The Frog which hunted that lovely butterfly you saw day before,
        the colorful butterfly which made you think of beauties of life.

        And continue to imagine;
        A black bird eating vegetables on the ground and shouting
        back to hawk:
        "Killing is bad. Listen to me. I go to church. Killing is bad..."
        Then a gun shot heard with echoes from surrounding trees.
        Hawk falls off nearby with a bullet wound.
        Baptised black bird laughs:
        "I told ya! Listen to me. Killing is bad."
        And another gun shot blowns up black bird's head
        and human says: "I'm the god. The god of this Earth..."
        Who is God? Who is Evil?

        What is the meaning of life in Earth?
        What is the spirit behind life in Earth?
        Isn't it just the arena of survival.
        Everyone is a victim of another one, survival of another one.
        It's a bloody circle. Is that the same spirit you saw ???

        You say, God is life itself for you, or life is God.
        Is your God evil? Is it dangerous? Or is it under threat?

        A life of a tinny butterfly is in great danger.
        A frog can eat it if it doesn't die in 3 days.
        Life of frog, life of snake, life of hawk are in danger too.
        They are programmed to destroy each other for survival.
        Is your life safe? Is this what you mean for God?

        The whole life in Earth is in threat.
        Universe is arena of survival. Against what? To God? Or to Evil?
        Think of many huge meteors turning around the Sun and
        every year several of them approaches to Earth.
        There is an asteroid belt around the Sun, next to Earth,
        consist of billions of small stones and dusts, it looks like
        one huge meteroid destroyed the planet next to Earth
        in the past. One could destroy the Earth in any future.
        Ask yourself:
        What is the meaning of God for eaten snake or killed sheep?
        For a children dying of hunger, for his already dead mother?
        or is she lucky not to see his child dying from hunger?
        (by the way 24 thousands die every day from hunger)
        What is the meaning of life in Earth in such damn situation?
        Why life is in danger? On purpose? By fault?
        Can those human beings survive anymore?
        Can they destroy the life in Earth with their nukes
        having capacity to destroy 12 more Earths?
        Are humans Evil?
        Or life is Evil and you think its God?


        There is no single definition of Atheist, but in general,
        Atheist does not believe in god or gods.
        Some Atheists can believe other things.
        I know some atheists who believe in astrology, mind reading, tarot,
        teleportation, UFOs, djins, spirits, supernaturals etc...
        There is no restriction in beliefs other than god.
        But there are Atheist who are also Sceptics,
        do not believe any system that can't be scientifically proven,
        and questions everything that other people believes.

        Mostly; Atheists are more reliable, moral, spiritual,
        strong, self driven, sceptic, responsible, reasonable and
        free people compare to believers.

        What I have written about life does not bound or represent my
        viewpoint of life, it was just questioning your beliefs
        and create questions that hard to answer.
        I love animals, humans, trees, birds, the nature and life in Earth.
        I do not believe that they are created conciously by a god!
        And I don't like religious people.

        Good days.
        Cem



        --- In deathtoreligion@yahoogroups.com, "uuchild73034"
        <uuchild73034@y...> wrote:
        > Hello All!
        > I have just joined this group and am interested in some feedback
        > here.
        > First, let me tell a little about myself. I am a member of a
        > Unitarian Universalist congregation. I was raised in the Lutheran
        > tradition, but always found that path to be, more or less, just
        mere
        > mythology. I recently, within the last three years, felt that I
        > needed some type of spirituality in my, and my daughter's, life and
        > started loking around at churches within my area.
        > I discovered the Unitarians.
        > I liked what they had to say about "the interdependent web of all
        > existence," and "the free and responsible search for truth and
        > meaning." I sensed logic in the humanist teachings and, yes, even
        > the Christian/Judaic roots that UU's draw from.
        > Personally, I consider myself, if one has to have a label, to be
        > pagan. Mainly because, if categorizing, I am not a follower of any
        > of the Abrahamic religions. Yet, I do feel a sense of divinity.
        > Not "God" in the preconceived definition of the word, but "God" in
        > the process and connection of Life.
        > (The word "God" is very difficult for me to comprehend or convey
        > since the word "God" has so many traditional attachments to it.)
        > Anyway, to me, Life itself is "God." Life itself is divine.
        > I have struggled, and continue to do so, with the notion of "God".
        > Part of me "feels the spirit." I feel the spirit when I look at a
        > child. I feel the spirit when I see a hawk flying with a snake
        > writhing in its' talons. I feel the spirit when I make love. I feel
        > the spirit when I am overwhelmed with laughter. I feel the spirit
        > when I am among devout Christians, or Judeans, or Muslims, or
        > Buddhists, or Taoists, or Wiccans, or Yorubans, or Atheists or any
        > other belief system. I feel the spirit in the trees, and rocks, and
        > stars, and clouds, and ...
        > Okay, enough of this diatribe. My question to you is:
        > Does someone who labels themselves as "atheist" have a type of
        > spirituality to them? (Bear in mind that I see a distinct
        difference
        > between spirituality and religion.)
        > At the church, for lack of a better word, that I attend there are
        > quite a few professed atheists. These are some of the most
        > spitritual people I know.
        > They are loving and connected and happy. They seem to worship
        beyond
        > what any Christian is capable of. And, FYI, they embody the
        > principles of Jesus far beyond ANY holy roller, evagelical, bible
        > thumping, right-wing, fanatical, warrior for Christ, flag waving,
        > anti-abortionist, homo-phobic idiot that I can think of.
        > So,...what's the deal?
        > What started this train of thought in my head was a conversation I
        > had with a fellow worker who says he is "atheist."
        > He, who perhaps is on his own journey of discovery, says that as an
        > atheist he can not recognize or accept a spirituality. From what I
        > can gather with conversation with him, "atheists" have no
        > spirituality.
        > This, to me, seems pretty bleak.
        > Maybe I'm wrong. Maybe it's just my Lutheran upbringing that still
        > has a hold on me. Maybe Life is just a wondrous, endless chance for
        > experience and change. But, isn't there SOMEHING?
        > Okay, I'll end now.
        > (By the way, I do the children's R.E, religious education, at the
        > UU "church." I try to teach through stories. And I believe that ALL
        > paths have a lesson to be learned. Atheism is a lesson that I have
        > not touched on, yet. But, if it exisits, then it must be relevant
        > and necessary.)
        > Without thinking of belief, or creed, or faith, or religion...
        > What is spirituality to you? Is there spritualtity?
        > When you hear the phrase "higher power" what does that mean, if
        > anything?
        > In a country that, unfortunately, seems to be governed by "God
        bless
        > America," how do you justify and maintain, and explain to the
        > ignorant masses, that "God" is an abberation?
        > In this same country, that insists on misinterpreting our fore-
        > fathers and mothers, how do you manage to impart the goodness
        > (spirituality) and connection (spirituality) and love
        (spirituality)
        > that is, in my mind, divinity?
        > What is atheism?
        > Is it just another label?
        > I see Life as "God."
        > What can I learn from you and what can I teach the children of the
        > new world?
        > (As a teaser: To me, the statement "I don't believe in "God" is
        > admiting that there is a god to not believe in. Strange...)
        >
        >
        > Please don't think that I am trying to convert or preach. I am
        > merely curious and hungry for growth and understanding. I write a
        > lot of children's stories and am always trying to expand on the
        > wealth of life that exisits.
        >
        > With or without...Life goes on. And Life ALWAYS goes on. That, to
        > me, is "God."
        >
        > Sincerely,
        > Melody
      • Maurice Temples
        twoedgedsword: There was a young lady here who asked for some input regarding atheism and some specific situations in her life. I gave her mine. And now you
        Message 3 of 5 , Sep 20, 2003
          twoedgedsword:


          There was a young lady here who asked for some input
          regarding atheism and some specific situations in her
          life. I gave her mine. And now you waltz in and try
          to piss all over it. Get an idea.


          There's a
          > pretty large logical conundrum there. Without a
          > finite "set" of
          > morals, how can you measure (as in "more moral") the
          > morality of one
          > kind over another?

          The conundrum is "what were you thinking?" Let's see
          now: without a finite set of inches, how can you
          measure the inchness of one inch over another? I
          suppose you think inches were handed down from some
          god or built into the fabric of the universe rather
          than being established by the big toe of some dead
          British ruler. Your "measure" is arbitrary, therefore
          relative. How would you find out how many inches your
          brain weighs? There's no translation. But it's
          entirely possible to determine the accuracy of
          measurements in terms of the scales being used for
          those measurements, and then to compare those
          accuracies to determine which one might be the more
          accurate. So what's the conundrum? If you subscribe
          to a 10-point moral code but comply with only 5, and I
          subscribe to a 12-point moral code but comply with 9,
          who's "more moral?"


          > You could be a UU - then you can invent whatever
          > definition of
          > morality you wish and therefore your statement of
          > you and your kind
          > being *more moral* than another kind would be true

          Why would you measure try to measure the weight of
          your brain in inches?


          > By inferrence, you seem to state that 'believers'
          > are not free from
          > those rituals or dogmas, even superstitions.

          I'm sorry if I only "inferred" it. I'll state it
          explicitly: Believers are not free of rituals, dogmas,
          and superstitions. Is that better?


          That
          > characterizes every
          > religious order as having those attributes. That's
          > an incorrect
          > attribution - and blatantly so.

          You're not really awake, are you? Those are *exactly*
          the things that define a religion.


          > You know, I'm always telling my kids "Behave will
          > ya?". I guess
          > behavior is important afterall. Where do I get such
          > a notion?????
          > Thank God for atheism then?

          So? Are you one of those parents who thinks good
          behavior includes strapping a bomb to your chest and
          blowing innocent people up? Thank reason for atheism.


          > But on "articles of faith"? Just put your hand on
          > the left side of
          > your chest, feel your heart beating, and understand
          > that there's no
          > escape from faith as long as that machine's pumping
          > man - like it or
          > not.

          Oh. I guess that answers my question. You're one of
          those neanderthals who don't take their kids to the
          doctor when they need it. Get an idea, man.


          > 'Plllllease.... ANYTHING But GOD, ack!'.

          Cool! The only thing you've said that comes close to
          sense.


          Maurice

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