Re: [Death To Religion] spirituality
- Maurice Said:
"One thing I have noticed is that, as a general rule, athiests tend
to behave more morally than believers... I think atheists behave more
morally because they know they must take personal responsibility for
their morality, whereas Christians can just go to confession or get
Then he said
"I want to point out that atheism is not a belief system. Believers
like to characterize it as such, but that is not the case. There is no
atheist creed to which atheists must subscribe; no dogmas, no
rituals, no articles of faith. Atheism is the freedom from such
things, and freedom from supernaturalism and superstition. But
individual atheists vary widely in what they find intellectually
acceptable. One on this group finds the idea of moral absolutes
acceptable, which astonishes me."
Atheists "behave... morally" even *more* morally than 'believers'.
Somehow they accomplish this despite a "wide variety" of that which
is "intellectually acceptable". And at the same time, you're
astonished over the idea of support for moral absolutes. There's a
pretty large logical conundrum there. Without a finite "set" of
morals, how can you measure (as in "more moral") the morality of one
kind over another?
You could be a UU - then you can invent whatever definition of
morality you wish and therefore your statement of you and your kind
being *more moral* than another kind would be true as can be (for
what it's worth). Oooops, that won't work either. I forgot about
dogma, superstition etc.
By inferrence, you seem to state that 'believers' are not free from
those rituals or dogmas, even superstitions. That characterizes every
religious order as having those attributes. That's an incorrect
attribution - and blatantly so.
You know, I'm always telling my kids "Behave will ya?". I guess
behavior is important afterall. Where do I get such a notion?????
Thank God for atheism then?
But on "articles of faith"? Just put your hand on the left side of
your chest, feel your heart beating, and understand that there's no
escape from faith as long as that machine's pumping man - like it or
Someone needs to rename this group 'Death To Logic' or better
yet 'Plllllease.... ANYTHING But GOD, ack!'.
- I see different spiritualities when I look at the hawk
with a snake in its mouth. What is the meaning of life
for the hawk and what is it for the snake?
Imagine the moment; hawk is laughing and creeking:
"God! thank you for the supper".
While snake is crying for its wounds and whistling:
"God! Where are you? Is this your justice? What is the meaning of my
life for you, dammit"
Think that the same snake was eating a funny frog last night!
The Frog which hunted that lovely butterfly you saw day before,
the colorful butterfly which made you think of beauties of life.
And continue to imagine;
A black bird eating vegetables on the ground and shouting
back to hawk:
"Killing is bad. Listen to me. I go to church. Killing is bad..."
Then a gun shot heard with echoes from surrounding trees.
Hawk falls off nearby with a bullet wound.
Baptised black bird laughs:
"I told ya! Listen to me. Killing is bad."
And another gun shot blowns up black bird's head
and human says: "I'm the god. The god of this Earth..."
Who is God? Who is Evil?
What is the meaning of life in Earth?
What is the spirit behind life in Earth?
Isn't it just the arena of survival.
Everyone is a victim of another one, survival of another one.
It's a bloody circle. Is that the same spirit you saw ???
You say, God is life itself for you, or life is God.
Is your God evil? Is it dangerous? Or is it under threat?
A life of a tinny butterfly is in great danger.
A frog can eat it if it doesn't die in 3 days.
Life of frog, life of snake, life of hawk are in danger too.
They are programmed to destroy each other for survival.
Is your life safe? Is this what you mean for God?
The whole life in Earth is in threat.
Universe is arena of survival. Against what? To God? Or to Evil?
Think of many huge meteors turning around the Sun and
every year several of them approaches to Earth.
There is an asteroid belt around the Sun, next to Earth,
consist of billions of small stones and dusts, it looks like
one huge meteroid destroyed the planet next to Earth
in the past. One could destroy the Earth in any future.
What is the meaning of God for eaten snake or killed sheep?
For a children dying of hunger, for his already dead mother?
or is she lucky not to see his child dying from hunger?
(by the way 24 thousands die every day from hunger)
What is the meaning of life in Earth in such damn situation?
Why life is in danger? On purpose? By fault?
Can those human beings survive anymore?
Can they destroy the life in Earth with their nukes
having capacity to destroy 12 more Earths?
Are humans Evil?
Or life is Evil and you think its God?
There is no single definition of Atheist, but in general,
Atheist does not believe in god or gods.
Some Atheists can believe other things.
I know some atheists who believe in astrology, mind reading, tarot,
teleportation, UFOs, djins, spirits, supernaturals etc...
There is no restriction in beliefs other than god.
But there are Atheist who are also Sceptics,
do not believe any system that can't be scientifically proven,
and questions everything that other people believes.
Mostly; Atheists are more reliable, moral, spiritual,
strong, self driven, sceptic, responsible, reasonable and
free people compare to believers.
What I have written about life does not bound or represent my
viewpoint of life, it was just questioning your beliefs
and create questions that hard to answer.
I love animals, humans, trees, birds, the nature and life in Earth.
I do not believe that they are created conciously by a god!
And I don't like religious people.
--- In firstname.lastname@example.org, "uuchild73034"
> Hello All!mere
> I have just joined this group and am interested in some feedback
> First, let me tell a little about myself. I am a member of a
> Unitarian Universalist congregation. I was raised in the Lutheran
> tradition, but always found that path to be, more or less, just
> mythology. I recently, within the last three years, felt that Idifference
> needed some type of spirituality in my, and my daughter's, life and
> started loking around at churches within my area.
> I discovered the Unitarians.
> I liked what they had to say about "the interdependent web of all
> existence," and "the free and responsible search for truth and
> meaning." I sensed logic in the humanist teachings and, yes, even
> the Christian/Judaic roots that UU's draw from.
> Personally, I consider myself, if one has to have a label, to be
> pagan. Mainly because, if categorizing, I am not a follower of any
> of the Abrahamic religions. Yet, I do feel a sense of divinity.
> Not "God" in the preconceived definition of the word, but "God" in
> the process and connection of Life.
> (The word "God" is very difficult for me to comprehend or convey
> since the word "God" has so many traditional attachments to it.)
> Anyway, to me, Life itself is "God." Life itself is divine.
> I have struggled, and continue to do so, with the notion of "God".
> Part of me "feels the spirit." I feel the spirit when I look at a
> child. I feel the spirit when I see a hawk flying with a snake
> writhing in its' talons. I feel the spirit when I make love. I feel
> the spirit when I am overwhelmed with laughter. I feel the spirit
> when I am among devout Christians, or Judeans, or Muslims, or
> Buddhists, or Taoists, or Wiccans, or Yorubans, or Atheists or any
> other belief system. I feel the spirit in the trees, and rocks, and
> stars, and clouds, and ...
> Okay, enough of this diatribe. My question to you is:
> Does someone who labels themselves as "atheist" have a type of
> spirituality to them? (Bear in mind that I see a distinct
> between spirituality and religion.)beyond
> At the church, for lack of a better word, that I attend there are
> quite a few professed atheists. These are some of the most
> spitritual people I know.
> They are loving and connected and happy. They seem to worship
> what any Christian is capable of. And, FYI, they embody thebless
> principles of Jesus far beyond ANY holy roller, evagelical, bible
> thumping, right-wing, fanatical, warrior for Christ, flag waving,
> anti-abortionist, homo-phobic idiot that I can think of.
> So,...what's the deal?
> What started this train of thought in my head was a conversation I
> had with a fellow worker who says he is "atheist."
> He, who perhaps is on his own journey of discovery, says that as an
> atheist he can not recognize or accept a spirituality. From what I
> can gather with conversation with him, "atheists" have no
> This, to me, seems pretty bleak.
> Maybe I'm wrong. Maybe it's just my Lutheran upbringing that still
> has a hold on me. Maybe Life is just a wondrous, endless chance for
> experience and change. But, isn't there SOMEHING?
> Okay, I'll end now.
> (By the way, I do the children's R.E, religious education, at the
> UU "church." I try to teach through stories. And I believe that ALL
> paths have a lesson to be learned. Atheism is a lesson that I have
> not touched on, yet. But, if it exisits, then it must be relevant
> and necessary.)
> Without thinking of belief, or creed, or faith, or religion...
> What is spirituality to you? Is there spritualtity?
> When you hear the phrase "higher power" what does that mean, if
> In a country that, unfortunately, seems to be governed by "God
> America," how do you justify and maintain, and explain to the(spirituality)
> ignorant masses, that "God" is an abberation?
> In this same country, that insists on misinterpreting our fore-
> fathers and mothers, how do you manage to impart the goodness
> (spirituality) and connection (spirituality) and love
> that is, in my mind, divinity?
> What is atheism?
> Is it just another label?
> I see Life as "God."
> What can I learn from you and what can I teach the children of the
> new world?
> (As a teaser: To me, the statement "I don't believe in "God" is
> admiting that there is a god to not believe in. Strange...)
> Please don't think that I am trying to convert or preach. I am
> merely curious and hungry for growth and understanding. I write a
> lot of children's stories and am always trying to expand on the
> wealth of life that exisits.
> With or without...Life goes on. And Life ALWAYS goes on. That, to
> me, is "God."
There was a young lady here who asked for some input
regarding atheism and some specific situations in her
life. I gave her mine. And now you waltz in and try
to piss all over it. Get an idea.
> pretty large logical conundrum there. Without aThe conundrum is "what were you thinking?" Let's see
> finite "set" of
> morals, how can you measure (as in "more moral") the
> morality of one
> kind over another?
now: without a finite set of inches, how can you
measure the inchness of one inch over another? I
suppose you think inches were handed down from some
god or built into the fabric of the universe rather
than being established by the big toe of some dead
British ruler. Your "measure" is arbitrary, therefore
relative. How would you find out how many inches your
brain weighs? There's no translation. But it's
entirely possible to determine the accuracy of
measurements in terms of the scales being used for
those measurements, and then to compare those
accuracies to determine which one might be the more
accurate. So what's the conundrum? If you subscribe
to a 10-point moral code but comply with only 5, and I
subscribe to a 12-point moral code but comply with 9,
who's "more moral?"
> You could be a UU - then you can invent whateverWhy would you measure try to measure the weight of
> definition of
> morality you wish and therefore your statement of
> you and your kind
> being *more moral* than another kind would be true
your brain in inches?
> By inferrence, you seem to state that 'believers'I'm sorry if I only "inferred" it. I'll state it
> are not free from
> those rituals or dogmas, even superstitions.
explicitly: Believers are not free of rituals, dogmas,
and superstitions. Is that better?
> characterizes everyYou're not really awake, are you? Those are *exactly*
> religious order as having those attributes. That's
> an incorrect
> attribution - and blatantly so.
the things that define a religion.
> You know, I'm always telling my kids "Behave willSo? Are you one of those parents who thinks good
> ya?". I guess
> behavior is important afterall. Where do I get such
> a notion?????
> Thank God for atheism then?
behavior includes strapping a bomb to your chest and
blowing innocent people up? Thank reason for atheism.
> But on "articles of faith"? Just put your hand onOh. I guess that answers my question. You're one of
> the left side of
> your chest, feel your heart beating, and understand
> that there's no
> escape from faith as long as that machine's pumping
> man - like it or
those neanderthals who don't take their kids to the
doctor when they need it. Get an idea, man.
> 'Plllllease.... ANYTHING But GOD, ack!'.Cool! The only thing you've said that comes close to
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