Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Americas Next Target Has been Selected...

Expand Messages
  • proleus
    Apparently, Bush has decided to look into toppling the Iranian government. I suppose it was only a matter of time...
    Message 1 of 10 , May 25 4:36 PM
    • 0 Attachment
      Apparently, Bush has decided to look into toppling the Iranian
      government. I suppose it was only a matter of time...
    • aseltym
      Yes, the administrations statement about destabilizing Iran reminded me very much of what Condaleeza Rice said about Iraq during the Bush Campaign. With
      Message 2 of 10 , May 26 5:54 AM
      • 0 Attachment
        Yes, the administrations statement about destabilizing Iran reminded
        me very much of what Condaleeza Rice said about Iraq during the Bush
        Campaign. With almost the same language. So we are headed for what?
        Oil Barons of the Planet? I hope someone clever comes up with a
        cheap efficient energy source. At this rate they will have to start
        the draft up again.
        Miriam


        --- In deathtoreligion@yahoogroups.com, proleus <no_reply@y...> wrote:
        > Apparently, Bush has decided to look into toppling the Iranian
        > government. I suppose it was only a matter of time...
      • paul stevens
        Be afraid, be very afraid. Can the Bush administration really think this is a good policy? With no offense intended to Americans, the USa already has a poor
        Message 3 of 10 , May 26 12:30 PM
        • 0 Attachment
          Be afraid, be very afraid.
          Can the Bush administration really think this is a
          good policy?
          With no offense intended to Americans, the USa already
          has a poor reputation in much of the rest of the world
          for paying any attention to anyone else (Kyoto ain't
          good for American economy, we'll scrap it; American
          news papers show very little world news beyond that
          directly concerning American; the Americans i have
          meet have very little knowledge of the world outside
          the US (apologies if i have just meet the wrong
          Americans)).
          America could start to have more friends in the world
          and less enemies if it showed it was aware of other
          views and the rest of the world sometimes.
          I'm aware this post is going to be very unpopular, but
          coming from someone with an outside view of the US i
          have to say i'm not alone in my views by a long
          stretch.
          Reagrds,


          --- proleus <no_reply@yahoogroups.com> wrote: >
          Apparently, Bush has decided to look into toppling
          > the Iranian
          > government. I suppose it was only a matter of
          > time...
          >
          >

          __________________________________________________
          It's Samaritans' Week. Help Samaritans help others.
          Call 08709 000032 to give or donate online now at http://www.samaritans.org/support/donations.shtm
        • aseltym
          Well I, for one, agree with you completely. I think that anyone who demonstrates blind faith when believing what US Govt officials report to be the facts is
          Message 4 of 10 , May 27 6:36 AM
          • 0 Attachment
            Well I, for one, agree with you completely. I think that anyone
            who demonstrates "blind faith" when believing what US Govt officials
            report to be the facts is neither patriotic or well informed. This
            Govt just finished persuading a large majority of citizens into
            supporting an armed invasion of a sovereign nation based on what has
            turned out to be massively unreliable intelligence information from
            the CIA. I cringe when I hear the war being justified because we
            liberated the Iraqui's from an evil dictator because we are now
            almost solely responsible for the welfare of 25 million Iraqui people
            with little or no help from other nations or aid organizations from
            other countries because we alienated our former allies because we
            WOULD NOT admit that our purpose was anything other than self defense
            from iminent attack with WMD possessed and ready to use by Iraq.
            How many other nations do you think will be behind us with this
            one? Iranian officials are not known for having personal evil
            behaviour flaws like killing their peers or stealing oil money to
            build lavish personal palaces while neglecting a starving population.
            The idea that Govt in Iran needs to be overthrown because
            terrorists hide out there would be fine if the same were true with
            all govts, including our own, or if all countries were equally
            responsible for keeping their borders too tight for anyone to enter
            without Govt approval, especially our own!
            Miriam



            --- In deathtoreligion@yahoogroups.com, paul stevens
            <pjstevens47@y...> wrote:
            > Be afraid, be very afraid.
            > Can the Bush administration really think this is a
            > good policy?
            > With no offense intended to Americans, the USa already
            > has a poor reputation in much of the rest of the world
            > for paying any attention to anyone else (Kyoto ain't
            > good for American economy, we'll scrap it; American
            > news papers show very little world news beyond that
            > directly concerning American; the Americans i have
            > meet have very little knowledge of the world outside
            > the US (apologies if i have just meet the wrong
            > Americans)).
            > America could start to have more friends in the world
            > and less enemies if it showed it was aware of other
            > views and the rest of the world sometimes.
            > I'm aware this post is going to be very unpopular, but
            > coming from someone with an outside view of the US i
            > have to say i'm not alone in my views by a long
            > stretch.
            > Reagrds,
            >
            >
            > --- proleus <no_reply@yahoogroups.com> wrote: >
            > Apparently, Bush has decided to look into toppling
            > > the Iranian
            > > government. I suppose it was only a matter of
            > > time...
            > >
            > >
            >
            > __________________________________________________
            > It's Samaritans' Week. Help Samaritans help others.
            > Call 08709 000032 to give or donate online now at
            http://www.samaritans.org/support/donations.shtm
          • proleus
            ... anyone ... officials ... has ... people ... defense ... population. ... Well, considering that the United States is indirectly responsible for the current
            Message 5 of 10 , May 27 10:55 AM
            • 0 Attachment
              --- In deathtoreligion@yahoogroups.com, "aseltym" <aseltym@y...>
              wrote:
              > Well I, for one, agree with you completely. I think that
              anyone
              > who demonstrates "blind faith" when believing what US Govt
              officials
              > report to be the facts is neither patriotic or well informed. This
              > Govt just finished persuading a large majority of citizens into
              > supporting an armed invasion of a sovereign nation based on what
              has
              > turned out to be massively unreliable intelligence information from
              > the CIA. I cringe when I hear the war being justified because we
              > liberated the Iraqui's from an evil dictator because we are now
              > almost solely responsible for the welfare of 25 million Iraqui
              people
              > with little or no help from other nations or aid organizations from
              > other countries because we alienated our former allies because we
              > WOULD NOT admit that our purpose was anything other than self
              defense
              > from iminent attack with WMD possessed and ready to use by Iraq.
              > How many other nations do you think will be behind us with this
              > one? Iranian officials are not known for having personal evil
              > behaviour flaws like killing their peers or stealing oil money to
              > build lavish personal palaces while neglecting a starving
              population.
              > The idea that Govt in Iran needs to be overthrown because
              > terrorists hide out there would be fine if the same were true with
              > all govts, including our own, or if all countries were equally
              > responsible for keeping their borders too tight for anyone to enter
              > without Govt approval, especially our own!
              > Miriam
              >

              Well, considering that the United States is indirectly responsible
              for the current state of affairs within Iran (refering to out
              reinstatement of the monarchy in Iran after the civilians threw a
              coup then sucessfully did it again). So, in my opinion (by no means a
              universal one), the United States is the only country that has any
              right to topple that government, however small that right may be.
              (same goes for Cuba--hint).
            • aseltym
              BUT even if we had some responsibility in the way the govt of Iran turned hard core Islamic after the Shah was deposed do we have the right to go into other
              Message 6 of 10 , May 27 8:27 PM
              • 0 Attachment
                BUT even if we had some responsibility in the way the govt of Iran
                turned hard core Islamic after the Shah was deposed do we have the
                right to go into other countries and try to destabilize them and NOT
                expect other countries to do the same with their enemies or even with
                our govt? How many more global enemies can we afford to make by our
                military interventions into countries whose govts are not threatening
                us or anyone else but just are not run the way we choose to have them
                run? If the measure of threat posed by other countries is their
                inattention to border security then what kind of threat does our own
                govt confront us with under the current lax border situations we have?
                The current agitation seems to have something to do
                with "Intelligence Information" regarding the presence of Al-queda
                members in Iran. Excuse me, but hasnt the Bush Admin.
                practically blamed the whole "Lack of WMD in Iraq" on the same inept
                intelligence community?
                Other than that what is Iran doing that is so bothersome to the
                USA?
                Miriam



                --- In deathtoreligion@yahoogroups.com, proleus <no_reply@y...> wrote:
                > --- In deathtoreligion@yahoogroups.com, "aseltym" <aseltym@y...>
                > wrote:
                > > Well I, for one, agree with you completely. I think that
                > anyone
                > > who demonstrates "blind faith" when believing what US Govt
                > officials
                > > report to be the facts is neither patriotic or well informed.
                This
                > > Govt just finished persuading a large majority of citizens into
                > > supporting an armed invasion of a sovereign nation based on what
                > has
                > > turned out to be massively unreliable intelligence information
                from
                > > the CIA. I cringe when I hear the war being justified because we
                > > liberated the Iraqui's from an evil dictator because we are now
                > > almost solely responsible for the welfare of 25 million Iraqui
                > people
                > > with little or no help from other nations or aid organizations
                from
                > > other countries because we alienated our former allies because we
                > > WOULD NOT admit that our purpose was anything other than self
                > defense
                > > from iminent attack with WMD possessed and ready to use by Iraq.
                > > How many other nations do you think will be behind us with
                this
                > > one? Iranian officials are not known for having personal evil
                > > behaviour flaws like killing their peers or stealing oil money to
                > > build lavish personal palaces while neglecting a starving
                > population.
                > > The idea that Govt in Iran needs to be overthrown because
                > > terrorists hide out there would be fine if the same were true
                with
                > > all govts, including our own, or if all countries were equally
                > > responsible for keeping their borders too tight for anyone to
                enter
                > > without Govt approval, especially our own!
                > > Miriam
                > >
                >
                > Well, considering that the United States is indirectly responsible
                > for the current state of affairs within Iran (refering to out
                > reinstatement of the monarchy in Iran after the civilians threw a
                > coup then sucessfully did it again). So, in my opinion (by no means
                a
                > universal one), the United States is the only country that has any
                > right to topple that government, however small that right may be.
                > (same goes for Cuba--hint).
              • proleus
                ... Iran ... NOT ... with ... our ... threatening ... them ... own ... have? ... inept ... While I understand and generally agree with your arguments, I am
                Message 7 of 10 , May 27 10:40 PM
                • 0 Attachment
                  --- In deathtoreligion@yahoogroups.com, "aseltym" <aseltym@y...>
                  wrote:
                  > BUT even if we had some responsibility in the way the govt of
                  Iran
                  > turned hard core Islamic after the Shah was deposed do we have the
                  > right to go into other countries and try to destabilize them and
                  NOT
                  > expect other countries to do the same with their enemies or even
                  with
                  > our govt? How many more global enemies can we afford to make by
                  our
                  > military interventions into countries whose govts are not
                  threatening
                  > us or anyone else but just are not run the way we choose to have
                  them
                  > run? If the measure of threat posed by other countries is their
                  > inattention to border security then what kind of threat does our
                  own
                  > govt confront us with under the current lax border situations we
                  have?
                  > The current agitation seems to have something to do
                  > with "Intelligence Information" regarding the presence of Al-queda
                  > members in Iran. Excuse me, but hasnt the Bush Admin.
                  > practically blamed the whole "Lack of WMD in Iraq" on the same
                  inept
                  > intelligence community?
                  > Other than that what is Iran doing that is so bothersome to the
                  > USA?
                  > Miriam

                  While I understand and generally agree with your arguments, I am
                  inclined to believe that the world has much, much more to fear from a
                  completely unleashed United States than the United States has to fear
                  from the rest of the world. I will cite my reasons for this belief
                  toward the end of my post.

                  Iraq did need to be freed, 11 years ago, when we were first there, by
                  going when we did, we basicially were doing the unevitable. But by
                  putting it off for 10 years we made the Iraqi people resentful of us,
                  and by stagering with it for nearly a year made them even more so
                  resentful of us. I can understand their position towards us how ever
                  aggrivating it may be. In all honesty, it does not really matter
                  whether we find WMD in Iraq now because we have already removed
                  Saddaam from power. Nothing can correct that action and the United
                  States is not likely to face penalties from the UN because of it.

                  When I stated that I think the United States is the only country that
                  has the right (if there is any right at all) to Invade them, I stated
                  so under a "we made the mess and it is right that it be us that clean
                  up that mess". Considering the current climate in that region of the
                  world, I don't imagine that toppling the Iranian Government would
                  look that good to the our credentials, but who can tell. What I do
                  know is that we are probably going to set up some internal coup so it
                  will look like a native revolution. But agian we will see.

                  When people talk about America aggrivating the world with our
                  seemingly unbound agression towards anyone that "looks at us
                  crosseyed" (so to speak) they refer to increased levels of terrorism,
                  and they are correct, the more damage we do to their infrastructure,
                  the more terrorist acts they will do. But do not think it will stop
                  there. Every single terrorist act that is made against the United
                  States makes President Bush and our Armed Forces that much more
                  convinced that what they are doing is honorable and just. They will
                  make our country men fight that much harder and push that much more,
                  and worst of all, they will make Bush that much more likely to tell
                  off our allies and ignore the United Nations and bully smaller
                  nations until we are satisfied, which will be never.

                  If pushed into a corner, the United States is by far the most lethal
                  country this world has ever seen, and though I am convinced that if
                  we do go it alone and make all the nations turn against us (which is
                  a very real possibility--it happened to all the other great powers in
                  history) we will fight thinking that we are the good guys and the
                  world is trying to exterminate us so we will do everything in our
                  power to "break the back" of the world and even though the United
                  States would eventually loose by being sheerly outnumbered, the
                  extent of damage the world would see would be uncomprehensible.

                  In short, even though they would win, going agianst the United States
                  is a practically committing suicide and the world knows that.

                  One thing that we can all agree upon is that these are by far the
                  most interesting times our species has witnessed and there is lots
                  more to come...
                • aseltym
                  Yes, I agree with you also-I want to give longer reply tomorrow because I have been online 4 about 5 hrs and my neck and shoulders are screaming at me to STOP
                  Message 8 of 10 , May 28 12:31 AM
                  • 0 Attachment
                    Yes, I agree with you also-I want to give longer reply tomorrow
                    because I have been online 4 about 5 hrs and my neck and shoulders
                    are screaming at me to STOP TYPING!!! So, I better listen to them..
                    Miriam




                    --- In deathtoreligion@yahoogroups.com, proleus <no_reply@y...> wrote:
                    > --- In deathtoreligion@yahoogroups.com, "aseltym" <aseltym@y...>
                    > wrote:
                    > > BUT even if we had some responsibility in the way the govt of
                    > Iran
                    > > turned hard core Islamic after the Shah was deposed do we have
                    the
                    > > right to go into other countries and try to destabilize them and
                    > NOT
                    > > expect other countries to do the same with their enemies or even
                    > with
                    > > our govt? How many more global enemies can we afford to make by
                    > our
                    > > military interventions into countries whose govts are not
                    > threatening
                    > > us or anyone else but just are not run the way we choose to have
                    > them
                    > > run? If the measure of threat posed by other countries is their
                    > > inattention to border security then what kind of threat does our
                    > own
                    > > govt confront us with under the current lax border situations we
                    > have?
                    > > The current agitation seems to have something to do
                    > > with "Intelligence Information" regarding the presence of Al-
                    queda
                    > > members in Iran. Excuse me, but hasnt the Bush Admin.
                    > > practically blamed the whole "Lack of WMD in Iraq" on the same
                    > inept
                    > > intelligence community?
                    > > Other than that what is Iran doing that is so bothersome to
                    the
                    > > USA?
                    > > Miriam
                    >
                    > While I understand and generally agree with your arguments, I am
                    > inclined to believe that the world has much, much more to fear from
                    a
                    > completely unleashed United States than the United States has to
                    fear
                    > from the rest of the world. I will cite my reasons for this belief
                    > toward the end of my post.
                    >
                    > Iraq did need to be freed, 11 years ago, when we were first there,
                    by
                    > going when we did, we basicially were doing the unevitable. But by
                    > putting it off for 10 years we made the Iraqi people resentful of
                    us,
                    > and by stagering with it for nearly a year made them even more so
                    > resentful of us. I can understand their position towards us how
                    ever
                    > aggrivating it may be. In all honesty, it does not really matter
                    > whether we find WMD in Iraq now because we have already removed
                    > Saddaam from power. Nothing can correct that action and the United
                    > States is not likely to face penalties from the UN because of it.
                    >
                    > When I stated that I think the United States is the only country
                    that
                    > has the right (if there is any right at all) to Invade them, I
                    stated
                    > so under a "we made the mess and it is right that it be us that
                    clean
                    > up that mess". Considering the current climate in that region of
                    the
                    > world, I don't imagine that toppling the Iranian Government would
                    > look that good to the our credentials, but who can tell. What I do
                    > know is that we are probably going to set up some internal coup so
                    it
                    > will look like a native revolution. But agian we will see.
                    >
                    > When people talk about America aggrivating the world with our
                    > seemingly unbound agression towards anyone that "looks at us
                    > crosseyed" (so to speak) they refer to increased levels of
                    terrorism,
                    > and they are correct, the more damage we do to their
                    infrastructure,
                    > the more terrorist acts they will do. But do not think it will stop
                    > there. Every single terrorist act that is made against the United
                    > States makes President Bush and our Armed Forces that much more
                    > convinced that what they are doing is honorable and just. They will
                    > make our country men fight that much harder and push that much
                    more,
                    > and worst of all, they will make Bush that much more likely to tell
                    > off our allies and ignore the United Nations and bully smaller
                    > nations until we are satisfied, which will be never.
                    >
                    > If pushed into a corner, the United States is by far the most
                    lethal
                    > country this world has ever seen, and though I am convinced that if
                    > we do go it alone and make all the nations turn against us (which
                    is
                    > a very real possibility--it happened to all the other great powers
                    in
                    > history) we will fight thinking that we are the good guys and the
                    > world is trying to exterminate us so we will do everything in our
                    > power to "break the back" of the world and even though the United
                    > States would eventually loose by being sheerly outnumbered, the
                    > extent of damage the world would see would be uncomprehensible.
                    >
                    > In short, even though they would win, going agianst the United
                    States
                    > is a practically committing suicide and the world knows that.
                    >
                    > One thing that we can all agree upon is that these are by far the
                    > most interesting times our species has witnessed and there is lots
                    > more to come...
                  • tarrat47
                    Okay.... How about the U.S. versus Russia, or China, or France, or Germany, or Japan, or North Korea, ... or ALL of the above. Of course the U.S. is
                    Message 9 of 10 , Aug 14, 2003
                    • 0 Attachment
                      Okay.... How about the U.S. versus Russia, or China, or France, or
                      Germany, or Japan, or North Korea, ... or ALL of the above. Of
                      course the U.S. is justified. The U.S. is ALWAYS self-justified in
                      any pious bullying that it does.

                      ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                      > Well, considering that the United States is indirectly responsible
                      > for the current state of affairs within Iran (refering to out
                      > reinstatement of the monarchy in Iran after the civilians threw a
                      > coup then sucessfully did it again). So, in my opinion (by no means
                      a
                      > universal one), the United States is the only country that has any
                      > right to topple that government, however small that right may be.
                      > (same goes for Cuba--hint).
                    • proleus
                      ... or ... Wow, that one goes a while back. Why would we want to invade Russia, there is no incentive to gain from it plus we are strategic allies with them.
                      Message 10 of 10 , Aug 14, 2003
                      • 0 Attachment
                        --- In deathtoreligion@yahoogroups.com, "tarrat47" <tarrat47@y...>
                        wrote:
                        > Okay.... How about the U.S. versus Russia, or China, or France,
                        or
                        > Germany, or Japan, or North Korea, ... or ALL of the above. Of
                        > course the U.S. is justified. The U.S. is ALWAYS self-justified in
                        > any pious bullying that it does.

                        Wow, that one goes a while back.

                        Why would we want to invade Russia, there is no incentive to gain
                        from it plus we are strategic allies with them. China... too messy.
                        France, what would be the challenge? Germany-Japan-North Korea, been
                        there done that.

                        Given the choice between boldness and timidity, I would choose
                        boldness every single time. Mistakes made by boldness can be repaired
                        by more boldness, however, mistakes made by timidity can never be
                        fixed.. (if you can't read though the lines on that one, it basically
                        says that if the united states had not acted against Afghanistan or
                        Iraq, then the attacks would have escalated at a rate much higher
                        than they have so far-which from my opinion, isn't a whole lot).

                        As for the statement on Iran. Actions made by the American Government
                        at the time led to the current dictatorship in that country. Thus,
                        logic would conclude that if anyone were to take responsibility and
                        fix the problem, it should be the United States.
                      Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.