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Re: War is comming 3nd Reply by Tip

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  • Ricky Barnes
    ... Tip, I m inclined to believe your claim of experience with military intelligence but, because I too was in military intelligence (1980- 1995) it is easy to
    Message 1 of 15 , Mar 31 6:19 PM
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      --- In deathtoreligion@yahoogroups.com, Don Tipton
      <gizzard2003@y...> wrote:
      >
      > Hi eifion:
      > The US Agents that "are" spying don't talk about it now.
      > The ones that "were spies" write about it when they are old
      > coots like me. It doesn't bother me whether you think so or
      > not! Of course if you "have" or ever "had" any background in
      > Military Intelligence you could challenge me or others on a
      > point by point basis, which you haven't offered yet. Therfore
      > we must conclude that you are another loudmouth liberal out to
      > put down the USA. Oh yeah, "Stick it"
      > Tip

      Tip,

      I'm inclined to believe your claim of experience with military
      intelligence but, because I too was in military intelligence (1980-
      1995) it is easy to test your knowledge briefly to confirm the truth
      of your claim. I offer the following questions that you should be
      able to easily answer:

      1. Please give the full definition of "SCI".

      2. What is the significance of the words "UMBRA" AND "SPOKE"?

      3. The CIA produces principally one type of intelligence. What is
      it?

      4. Who is the DCI?

      5. How is George Meade significant to the intelligence community?

      6. The DIA is a DoD member of the IC. Give the shred-out of those
      acronyms.

      7. You haven't mentioned which service you were in. Give the number
      used by your military service for your classification.

      8. One of these questions should not be answered because to do so
      would reveal classified information. Which is it?

      9. The NSA/CSS is responsible principally for what type of
      intelligence?

      10. If you received foreign language training, where did you
      receive your training?

      If you can answer some of these I will be convinced of your claim.

      Thanks,

      Rick
    • Don Tipton
      Hi Rick: (Tip) Well well, another spook, eh? By your liberal post I seem to have underestimated you personally and professionally. Interestingly though we
      Message 2 of 15 , Apr 1, 2003
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        Hi Rick: (Tip)

        Well well, another spook, eh? By your liberal post I seem
        to have underestimated you personally and professionally.
        Interestingly though we are all either liberal thinking,
        conservative thinking or middle of the road by the inclination of
        developed personality. Aside from that I can't really say I care,
        but as you are aware my bent is to be a conservative.

        I will answer your queries though, as follows:

        1. The full definition of SCI, (Sensitive Compartmented Information)
        This is a way of "upgrading" certain profiled information or
        nomenclature, so only certain people may see or have access to it.

        2. The significance of UMBRA is, that part of any "plan or
        manifestation" which lies to the "center and is unseen" because of
        an overiding public acclaim to adopt that plan. It is sort of like
        the shadowy center of a sunspot, there is no detail in the center of
        the arrangment becaus it is concealed for some purpose. (The devil
        is in the details)

        SPOKE is the path that an Agent uses, to discover the real center
        of any proposal or plan, like the rungs of a ladder, going from one
        spoke to another till the end is in sight.

        3. the CIA produces "Foreign" intelligence, mostly of two types,
        HUMINT and SIGINT.

        4. The present DCI is Georgie Tenet and the best in my day was
        Richard Helms.

        5.

        6. The DEFENSE INTELLIGENCE ADMINISTRATION is a member of the
        American INTELLIGENCE COMMUNITY. Originally the CIA was supposed to
        supervise the collection and dissemination of all intelligence that
        every agency produces, but it didn't turn out that way.

        ONI and MI and AFMI have their own administrations and different
        goals, that CIA does not direct or command. There is a certain
        distrust between Military MI Agencies and the CIA BECAUSE OF AN
        EVENT CALLED THE BAY OF PIGS, AND A FORMER PROJECT MANAGER, RICHARD
        BISSELL. (Military vs Civilians)

        7. My branch was Army, but my unit was always Multi-service and
        there were only 19 in our group. (Our mentor was Admiral Rickover)
        I will not provide any ID Number to you or anyone else.

        8. (see # 7)

        9. THE NATIONAL SECURITY AGENCY is responsible for intercepting
        worldwide signals, and eavesdropping on wired and wireless systems.
        (SIGINT)

        10. I am not a linguist but my daughter is, she trained in
        California at Monterey.

        COMMENTARY: How do you feel about domestic spying? I did some of
        this as a military project if the group we interdicted had a foreign
        source and reported to that source. i.e The Aryan Nation in Idaho,
        at Hayden Lake, known as "neo Nazis" the heirarchy are actually
        communists, but the rank and file don't know it. (National Socialism
        is their economic system that ties to the political system broadly
        known as Marxism.

        Best regards,

        Tip


















        --- In deathtoreligion@yahoogroups.com, "Ricky Barnes"
        <RickyBarnes1960@h...> wrote:
        > --- In deathtoreligion@yahoogroups.com, Don Tipton
        > <gizzard2003@y...> wrote:
        > >
        > > Hi eifion:
        > > The US Agents that "are" spying don't talk about it now.
        > > The ones that "were spies" write about it when they are old
        > > coots like me. It doesn't bother me whether you think so or
        > > not! Of course if you "have" or ever "had" any background in
        > > Military Intelligence you could challenge me or others on a
        > > point by point basis, which you haven't offered yet. Therfore
        > > we must conclude that you are another loudmouth liberal out to
        > > put down the USA. Oh yeah, "Stick it"
        > > Tip
        >
        > Tip,
        >
        > I'm inclined to believe your claim of experience with military
        > intelligence but, because I too was in military intelligence (1980-
        > 1995) it is easy to test your knowledge briefly to confirm the
        truth
        > of your claim. I offer the following questions that you should be
        > able to easily answer:
        >
        > 1. Please give the full definition of "SCI".
        >
        > 2. What is the significance of the words "UMBRA" AND "SPOKE"?
        >
        > 3. The CIA produces principally one type of intelligence. What is
        > it?
        >
        > 4. Who is the DCI?
        >
        > 5. How is George Meade significant to the intelligence community?
        >
        > 6. The DIA is a DoD member of the IC. Give the shred-out of those
        > acronyms.
        >
        > 7. You haven't mentioned which service you were in. Give the
        number
        > used by your military service for your classification.
        >
        > 8. One of these questions should not be answered because to do so
        > would reveal classified information. Which is it?
        >
        > 9. The NSA/CSS is responsible principally for what type of
        > intelligence?
        >
        > 10. If you received foreign language training, where did you
        > receive your training?
        >
        > If you can answer some of these I will be convinced of your claim.
        >
        > Thanks,
        >
        > Rick
      • Ricky Barnes
        ... Hi Don. Thanks for taking the time to answer some of the questions. I realize you didn t have to really but it s nice to meet someone with integrity and
        Message 3 of 15 , Apr 2, 2003
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          --- In deathtoreligion@yahoogroups.com, "Don Tipton"
          <gizzard2003@y...> wrote:

          > Well well, another spook, eh? By your liberal post I seem
          > to have underestimated you personally and professionally.

          Hi Don.

          Thanks for taking the time to answer some of the questions. I
          realize you didn't have to really but it's nice to meet someone with
          integrity and very nice to meet another "spook." I've encountered
          several others online who made claims to knowledge of intelligence
          but all turned out to be total frauds.

          I'm not certain what you mean by "liberal post." My set of
          questions to you was the only thing I've posted lately and there
          wasn't anything liberal about it that I'm aware of. I am an
          objectivist both philosophically and politically so I don't consider
          myself liberal or conservative. I consider both of those "bents" to
          be statism in one form or another. I also don't belong to any
          political party for the same reasons.


          > 2. The significance of UMBRA is, that part of any "plan or
          > manifestation" which lies to the "center and is unseen" because of
          > an overiding public acclaim to adopt that plan. It is sort of like
          > the shadowy center of a sunspot, there is no detail in the center
          > of the arrangment becaus it is concealed for some purpose.
          > (The devil is in the details)
          >
          > SPOKE is the path that an Agent uses, to discover the real center
          > of any proposal or plan, like the rungs of a ladder, going from
          > one spoke to another till the end is in sight.


          I wasn't certain about asking this particular question because both
          of these "terms" were currently used when I was in the service and
          considering when you were involved they might not have been used
          then. This is the question I said should not be answered.


          > 7. My branch was Army, but my unit was always Multi-service and
          > there were only 19 in our group. (Our mentor was Admiral Rickover)
          > I will not provide any ID Number to you or anyone else.


          Actually, I wasn't asking for an ID number. I realize that is
          private and would never ask such a question. What I was referring
          to by "classification" was the number each of the services use to
          designate all of the particular specialties. For instance, all of
          the Army MI people I worked with were language specialists so their
          MOS was (If I remember correctly) 48G. In the Air Force my
          speciality was also language analysis and my AFSC (job
          classification) was 208XXX. I realize now that if your specialty
          was rare you might not have had an MOS like that but you might have
          and I was just curious if I'd recognize it.


          > 9. THE NATIONAL SECURITY AGENCY is responsible for intercepting
          > worldwide signals, and eavesdropping on wired and wireless
          > systems. (SIGINT)


          This was my last duty assignment before I left the Air Force.
          Considering the location of NSA, that was the relevancy of
          the "George Meade" question.


          > 10. I am not a linguist but my daughter is, she trained in
          > California at Monterey.


          Cool. I went to DLI in Monterey three times during my time in
          service for a year each time. It's a beautiful area and I wanted to
          settle there when I got out. Unfortunately the cost of living is
          through the roof. I contemplated applying for employment at DLI or
          the Naval Postgraduate School there in Monterey but instead opted to
          go into the Navy after I left the Air Force. I hope your daughter
          is safe and not in the middle east at the moment. I trained and
          worked with a lot of Arabic linguists during my service and I'll bet
          many of them are deep in the thick of this thing.


          > COMMENTARY: How do you feel about domestic spying? I did
          > some of this as a military project if the group we interdicted
          > had a foreign source and reported to that source. i.e The
          > Aryan Nation in Idaho, at Hayden Lake, known as "neo Nazis"
          > the heirarchy are actually communists, but the rank and file
          > don't know it. (National Socialism is their economic system
          > that ties to the political system broadly known as Marxism.


          Well, in civilian law enforcement it's called surveillance but I
          know what you're saying. I did some civilian-related language work
          with a civilian law enforcement agency in Washington DC for about
          four months involving foreign organized crime-related activity in
          the area. Interesting stuff but not near as cushy working
          environment as I had at NSA.

          As far as the U.S. military being involved in "spying" on U.S.
          citizens or U.S. persons whether within the borders of the U.S. or
          out, I know in my own work we went to great lengths to avoid even
          inadvertent collection of that type of information. On many
          occasions materials had to be immediately destroyed because of such
          inadvertent intercept. My feelings about that type of collection is
          that the collection and the analysis of it isn't so much a problem
          as what we do with the information once we have it. I realize many
          non-government sponsored organizations are a direct threat to "U.S.
          interests" and surveillance of those entities is warranted. It's a
          very fine line those in intel have to walk. It's not an easy job by
          an means which is why I found it so fascinating and why I stuck with
          it for fifteen years. I kick myself almost every day for not
          staying until retirement.

          Again, nice to meet you and, I hope your daughter is safe and well.

          Rick
        • Don Tipton
          Hi Rick: Tip Nice post, and thanks. Our daughter Ann was a paratrooper/Linguist for 7 yrs and served at Ft. Bragg, NC and Baumholder, Germany. She was
          Message 4 of 15 , Apr 2, 2003
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            Hi Rick: Tip
            Nice post, and thanks. Our daughter Ann was a paratrooper/Linguist for 7 yrs and served at Ft. Bragg, NC and Baumholder, Germany. She was medicaled out last year for having cracks in her knees. We live at Fredericksburg, VA now, but mostly in California, Vancouver, and Alaska where I was tracking the KGB interest in getting Alaska back during the period of 1978-9. They weren't interested in the oil. Russia has more oil than anyone, they are an environmental nightmare with it though.
            The KGB wanted to do a couple of neat things. 1.Slow down the emergency response time on Elmandorf AFB & Ft. Richardson, and get their agents easily into Canada and the US. My two specialties included being a "spook" inside some Law Enforcement Communities, at different times, and having all the preroggatives of both occupations all the time. ( I did this for many years and served at different times as, Prison Officer, Police Patrolman, County Special Investigator and in Alaska as an undercover A.G. Agent.)
            Because my particuclar assignments-classification there was no MOS and my unit was deployed from Antarctica to Minsk at Belarus, & Sverdlovsk in the Ural Mountain heavy Industrial Center of the USSR. (1965) I began as with commando & flight training in 1948 and sanitized in 1984. I had two cooling off periods, one in 1969 because the KGB had a photo of me and another of my double. and One in 1979 when we did a sweep of Soviet Agents in Anchorage, that were connecting with the Mafia out of Tuscon AZ. (The Bonanno Family) They began getting
            Narcotics on Ft. Richadson and Elmandorf by recruiting an MP by the name of Bob Hunt. First they got him in debt, then helped him out, then tried to get him in deeper. He took a couple of hits into the NCO & Officer Clubs, then turned to our side when he realized how he had been set up.
            This project was a ploy we used under the UMBRA description, for a while we weren't too sure what was the "scope of Soviet interest", as it turned out they had more than one goal hidden at the "center" of an otherwise simple and obvious lawbreaking activity, related to bootlegging, statewide.
            Mentioning Monterey again, I recall the gravesite o Major McLoughlin the gunfighter from the days he was in the Army. He and his daughter drove into California after he left the army, and this guy was a real pistoleer, better than the Earps or Johnny Ringo. He lost his shirt on na gold mining scheme at Oroville, CA. and had to flee to San Francisco where he met Wyatt Earp, a saloon keeper and boxing match speculator.
            McLaughlin bet on the Johnso-Firpo fight and Earp was the referee. The fight went against McLaughlin, and he went to his hotel, put on his twin ivory handled six guns and went to Earp's saloon. Earp was standing at the bar with his foot on a brass rail. McLaughlin called him out, then called him a lot more things, but Earp didn't budge from his turned back position.
            McLaughlin paid off his bets and left town comming to earth at Monterey. He kept all the boys away from his daughter and she committed suicide, and he died of a broken heart. They are both buried there with a wrought iron fence.
            Nice talking to you,
            Tip







            Ricky Barnes <RickyBarnes1960@...> wrote:--- In deathtoreligion@yahoogroups.com, "Don Tipton"
            <gizzard2003@y...> wrote:

            > Well well, another spook, eh? By your liberal post I seem
            > to have underestimated you personally and professionally.

            Hi Don.

            Thanks for taking the time to answer some of the questions. I
            realize you didn't have to really but it's nice to meet someone with
            integrity and very nice to meet another "spook." I've encountered
            several others online who made claims to knowledge of intelligence
            but all turned out to be total frauds.

            I'm not certain what you mean by "liberal post." My set of
            questions to you was the only thing I've posted lately and there
            wasn't anything liberal about it that I'm aware of. I am an
            objectivist both philosophically and politically so I don't consider
            myself liberal or conservative. I consider both of those "bents" to
            be statism in one form or another. I also don't belong to any
            political party for the same reasons.


            > 2. The significance of UMBRA is, that part of any "plan or
            > manifestation" which lies to the "center and is unseen" because of
            > an overiding public acclaim to adopt that plan. It is sort of like
            > the shadowy center of a sunspot, there is no detail in the center
            > of the arrangment becaus it is concealed for some purpose.
            > (The devil is in the details)
            >
            > SPOKE is the path that an Agent uses, to discover the real center
            > of any proposal or plan, like the rungs of a ladder, going from
            > one spoke to another till the end is in sight.


            I wasn't certain about asking this particular question because both
            of these "terms" were currently used when I was in the service and
            considering when you were involved they might not have been used
            then. This is the question I said should not be answered.


            > 7. My branch was Army, but my unit was always Multi-service and
            > there were only 19 in our group. (Our mentor was Admiral Rickover)
            > I will not provide any ID Number to you or anyone else.


            Actually, I wasn't asking for an ID number. I realize that is
            private and would never ask such a question. What I was referring
            to by "classification" was the number each of the services use to
            designate all of the particular specialties. For instance, all of
            the Army MI people I worked with were language specialists so their
            MOS was (If I remember correctly) 48G. In the Air Force my
            speciality was also language analysis and my AFSC (job
            classification) was 208XXX. I realize now that if your specialty
            was rare you might not have had an MOS like that but you might have
            and I was just curious if I'd recognize it.


            > 9. THE NATIONAL SECURITY AGENCY is responsible for intercepting
            > worldwide signals, and eavesdropping on wired and wireless
            > systems. (SIGINT)


            This was my last duty assignment before I left the Air Force.
            Considering the location of NSA, that was the relevancy of
            the "George Meade" question.


            > 10. I am not a linguist but my daughter is, she trained in
            > California at Monterey.


            Cool. I went to DLI in Monterey three times during my time in
            service for a year each time. It's a beautiful area and I wanted to
            settle there when I got out. Unfortunately the cost of living is
            through the roof. I contemplated applying for employment at DLI or
            the Naval Postgraduate School there in Monterey but instead opted to
            go into the Navy after I left the Air Force. I hope your daughter
            is safe and not in the middle east at the moment. I trained and
            worked with a lot of Arabic linguists during my service and I'll bet
            many of them are deep in the thick of this thing.


            > COMMENTARY: How do you feel about domestic spying? I did
            > some of this as a military project if the group we interdicted
            > had a foreign source and reported to that source. i.e The
            > Aryan Nation in Idaho, at Hayden Lake, known as "neo Nazis"
            > the heirarchy are actually communists, but the rank and file
            > don't know it. (National Socialism is their economic system
            > that ties to the political system broadly known as Marxism.


            Well, in civilian law enforcement it's called surveillance but I
            know what you're saying. I did some civilian-related language work
            with a civilian law enforcement agency in Washington DC for about
            four months involving foreign organized crime-related activity in
            the area. Interesting stuff but not near as cushy working
            environment as I had at NSA.

            As far as the U.S. military being involved in "spying" on U.S.
            citizens or U.S. persons whether within the borders of the U.S. or
            out, I know in my own work we went to great lengths to avoid even
            inadvertent collection of that type of information. On many
            occasions materials had to be immediately destroyed because of such
            inadvertent intercept. My feelings about that type of collection is
            that the collection and the analysis of it isn't so much a problem
            as what we do with the information once we have it. I realize many
            non-government sponsored organizations are a direct threat to "U.S.
            interests" and surveillance of those entities is warranted. It's a
            very fine line those in intel have to walk. It's not an easy job by
            an means which is why I found it so fascinating and why I stuck with
            it for fifteen years. I kick myself almost every day for not
            staying until retirement.

            Again, nice to meet you and, I hope your daughter is safe and well.

            Rick



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