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Re: Palestinians do not deserve statehood.

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  • proleus
    ... Americans ... the ... not ... is ... who ... little ... placed ... All it takes is a few bad eggs to spoil the dozen.
    Message 1 of 27 , Jun 15, 2002
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      > History is written by the victors. I'm sure that the Native
      Americans
      > and French settlers didn't call the Britsh Colonials 'freedom
      > fighters'. The British settlers took no quarter when dealing with
      the
      > French, the indigenous population, or any loyalists. Soldiers are
      not
      > the only ones who paid for the civil liberties we enjoy in the U.S.
      >
      > Killing non-combatants is never justified, and never achieves the
      > goals of the aggressor. Your generalization about the Palestinians
      is
      > not valid however. Only splinters of Palestinian militants have
      > engaged in attacks on Israeli citizens. The remaining militants
      > confine their attacks to the IDF. To imply that the few radicals
      who
      > attack civilians are state-supported is to imply that there is a
      > Palestinian government at all.
      >
      > Arafat is the nominal head of the Palestinian Authority, but the
      > machinery of government, the services it provides, and the funds it
      > is supposed to collect to support its' operation are all but gone.
      > Most of the Palestinian people live in refugee camps, and have
      little
      > opportunity to participate in the workings of the PA. Most
      > Palestinians hate Arafat for his corruption and the constant strife
      > he has brought into their lives by his refusal to bargain with the
      > Israeli government. But they would rather keep Arafat than be
      placed
      > back under Israeli control.
      >
      > The Palestinian people deserve the opportunity to live in peace, on
      > land of their own. Do not assume to punish an entire people for the
      > actions of a few.

      All it takes is a few bad eggs to spoil the dozen.
    • blackvelvetjesus
      ... U.S. ... Palestinians ... it ... gone. ... strife ... the ... on ... the ... If you choose that position, why aren t you decrying the Israeli people for
      Message 2 of 27 , Jun 15, 2002
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        --- In deathtoreligion@y..., proleus <no_reply@y...> wrote:
        >
        > > History is written by the victors. I'm sure that the Native
        > Americans
        > > and French settlers didn't call the Britsh Colonials 'freedom
        > > fighters'. The British settlers took no quarter when dealing with
        > the
        > > French, the indigenous population, or any loyalists. Soldiers are
        > not
        > > the only ones who paid for the civil liberties we enjoy in the
        U.S.
        > >
        > > Killing non-combatants is never justified, and never achieves the
        > > goals of the aggressor. Your generalization about the
        Palestinians
        > is
        > > not valid however. Only splinters of Palestinian militants have
        > > engaged in attacks on Israeli citizens. The remaining militants
        > > confine their attacks to the IDF. To imply that the few radicals
        > who
        > > attack civilians are state-supported is to imply that there is a
        > > Palestinian government at all.
        > >
        > > Arafat is the nominal head of the Palestinian Authority, but the
        > > machinery of government, the services it provides, and the funds
        it
        > > is supposed to collect to support its' operation are all but
        gone.
        > > Most of the Palestinian people live in refugee camps, and have
        > little
        > > opportunity to participate in the workings of the PA. Most
        > > Palestinians hate Arafat for his corruption and the constant
        strife
        > > he has brought into their lives by his refusal to bargain with
        the
        > > Israeli government. But they would rather keep Arafat than be
        > placed
        > > back under Israeli control.
        > >
        > > The Palestinian people deserve the opportunity to live in peace,
        on
        > > land of their own. Do not assume to punish an entire people for
        the
        > > actions of a few.
        >
        > All it takes is a few bad eggs to spoil the dozen.

        If you choose that position, why aren't you decrying the Israeli
        people for the actions of a few? Why discriminate between Israeli
        attacks on civilians and Palestinian attacks on civilians?

        Cameron
      • devas666
        You know all about bad eggs, eh Pro. But I guess you can t help yerself, you are american afterall. Goddess ... U.S. ... Palestinians ... it ... gone. ...
        Message 3 of 27 , Jun 15, 2002
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          You know all about bad eggs, eh Pro. But I guess you can't help
          yerself, you are american afterall.
          Goddess

          --- In deathtoreligion@y..., proleus <no_reply@y...> wrote:
          >
          > > History is written by the victors. I'm sure that the Native
          > Americans
          > > and French settlers didn't call the Britsh Colonials 'freedom
          > > fighters'. The British settlers took no quarter when dealing with
          > the
          > > French, the indigenous population, or any loyalists. Soldiers are
          > not
          > > the only ones who paid for the civil liberties we enjoy in the
          U.S.
          > >
          > > Killing non-combatants is never justified, and never achieves the
          > > goals of the aggressor. Your generalization about the
          Palestinians
          > is
          > > not valid however. Only splinters of Palestinian militants have
          > > engaged in attacks on Israeli citizens. The remaining militants
          > > confine their attacks to the IDF. To imply that the few radicals
          > who
          > > attack civilians are state-supported is to imply that there is a
          > > Palestinian government at all.
          > >
          > > Arafat is the nominal head of the Palestinian Authority, but the
          > > machinery of government, the services it provides, and the funds
          it
          > > is supposed to collect to support its' operation are all but
          gone.
          > > Most of the Palestinian people live in refugee camps, and have
          > little
          > > opportunity to participate in the workings of the PA. Most
          > > Palestinians hate Arafat for his corruption and the constant
          strife
          > > he has brought into their lives by his refusal to bargain with
          the
          > > Israeli government. But they would rather keep Arafat than be
          > placed
          > > back under Israeli control.
          > >
          > > The Palestinian people deserve the opportunity to live in peace,
          on
          > > land of their own. Do not assume to punish an entire people for
          the
          > > actions of a few.
          >
          > All it takes is a few bad eggs to spoil the dozen.
        • proleus
          ... Well excuse me... lets condem israel and force them to stop protecting their own citizens. Lets make it impossible for them to protect their people. That
          Message 4 of 27 , Jun 16, 2002
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            > If you choose that position, why aren't you decrying the Israeli
            > people for the actions of a few? Why discriminate between Israeli
            > attacks on civilians and Palestinian attacks on civilians?
            >
            > Cameron

            Well excuse me... lets condem israel and force them to stop
            protecting their own citizens. Lets make it impossible for them to
            protect their people.

            That is the stupidest think you can possibly think of doing. In doing
            so, you would not only condone the palestinian suicide bombings, but
            encourage them to continue. The palestinians are to immature of a
            people to be negotiated with on a civilised level. Violence is all
            they have ever known and is likely all they will ever know.
          • proleus
            ... Better to be an american than a worthless canadian.
            Message 5 of 27 , Jun 16, 2002
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              --- In deathtoreligion@y..., devas666 <no_reply@y...> wrote:
              > You know all about bad eggs, eh Pro. But I guess you can't help
              > yerself, you are american afterall.
              > Goddess

              Better to be an american than a worthless canadian.
            • blackvelvetjesus
              ... doing ... but ... Ariel Sharon, the current Prime Minister of Israel, was blacklisted from the Israeli government in 1982 following the massacre of Sabra
              Message 6 of 27 , Jun 16, 2002
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                --- In deathtoreligion@y..., proleus <no_reply@y...> wrote:
                >
                > > If you choose that position, why aren't you decrying the Israeli
                > > people for the actions of a few? Why discriminate between Israeli
                > > attacks on civilians and Palestinian attacks on civilians?
                > >
                > > Cameron
                >
                > Well excuse me... lets condem israel and force them to stop
                > protecting their own citizens. Lets make it impossible for them to
                > protect their people.
                >
                > That is the stupidest think you can possibly think of doing. In
                doing
                > so, you would not only condone the palestinian suicide bombings,
                but
                > encourage them to continue. The palestinians are to immature of a
                > people to be negotiated with on a civilised level. Violence is all
                > they have ever known and is likely all they will ever know.


                Ariel Sharon, the current Prime Minister of Israel, was blacklisted
                from the Israeli government in 1982 following the massacre of Sabra
                and Shatila refugee camps in Lebanon that he directed. It is
                remarkable how soon the Israelis forgot this disgrace when they
                elected him into office. His barbarous campaign into the refugee
                camps seems to be fueled by his personal feud with Chairman Arafat,
                and elevated with each horrible retaliation by Palestinian militants.

                The point is, the acts of Palestinian militants cannot be state-
                sponsored, because there is hardly a shell of government left in the
                Palestinian Authority. The actions of the Israeli Defense Force are
                state-sponsored, and are directed in the smae cruel manner that Nixon
                prosecuted the Vietnam conflict. The intent of my reply was that as
                the Palestinian militants who target civilians should be punished, so
                should the Israeli government for deliberate attacks on the
                Palestinian populace. This is only idealism however, because Israel
                remains the United States' most favored ally.

                The Israeli citizens need protection from militants and terrorists,
                not Palestinian schoolchildren, housewives, and doctors. Bulldozing
                the camps and firing rockets into Palestinian schools serves to
                create more militants that it intends to wipe out. Conversely, the
                continued suicide attacks on Israeli citizens have spawned a few
                zealous groups of Zionists, who I anticipate will begin commiting
                attacks on Palestinians.

                No one has the moral high ground. While disengagement is preferable,
                the use of limited warfare on both sides would help bring the
                conflict to a close. The cycle of revenge will only worsen.

                Your attitude towards the Palestinian people is sadly typical of
                fellow Americans. I am glad to continue this debate but fully expect
                you to learn nothing from it.

                Cameron
              • devas666
                You re so cute when yer pissed off. devas
                Message 7 of 27 , Jun 16, 2002
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                  You're so cute when yer pissed off.
                  devas

                  --- In deathtoreligion@y..., proleus <no_reply@y...> wrote:
                  > --- In deathtoreligion@y..., devas666 <no_reply@y...> wrote:
                  > > You know all about bad eggs, eh Pro. But I guess you can't help
                  > > yerself, you are american afterall.
                  > > Goddess
                  >
                  > Better to be an american than a worthless canadian.
                • devas666
                  All right, so Israel is completely justified. Hmm let s see here: - Israel quickly took 3/4 of palestine after the war, more than the UN had suggested, and
                  Message 8 of 27 , Jun 16, 2002
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                    All right, so Israel is completely justified. Hmm let's see here:

                    - Israel quickly took 3/4 of palestine after the war, more than the
                    UN had suggested, and against the wishes of the muslims who had
                    occupied palestine for 1300 years at that point.
                    - Israeli's take over muslim land by forcefully building houses on
                    occupied land.
                    - the israeli military often refuses to allow people through
                    checkpoints for medical emergencies.
                    - Israeli military demolitions muslim houses as retaliation, contrary
                    to Article 53 of Geneva convention, and Article 33 which forbids
                    collective punishment.
                    - the Israeli's have refused humanitarian aid through to the
                    palestinians.
                    - The GSS routinely tortures palestinian prisoners in violation of
                    the Convention Against Torture.

                    But really I'm sure none of this has anything to do with it. It is
                    because the palestinians are lowly creatures who should bow down to
                    their superiors and take what they've got coming for being bad, bad
                    little boys and girls.

                    DevasMa

                    --- In deathtoreligion@y..., proleus <no_reply@y...> wrote:
                    >
                    > > If you choose that position, why aren't you decrying the Israeli
                    > > people for the actions of a few? Why discriminate between Israeli
                    > > attacks on civilians and Palestinian attacks on civilians?
                    > >
                    > > Cameron
                    >
                    > Well excuse me... lets condem israel and force them to stop
                    > protecting their own citizens. Lets make it impossible for them to
                    > protect their people.
                    >
                    > That is the stupidest think you can possibly think of doing. In
                    doing
                    > so, you would not only condone the palestinian suicide bombings,
                    but
                    > encourage them to continue. The palestinians are to immature of a
                    > people to be negotiated with on a civilised level. Violence is all
                    > they have ever known and is likely all they will ever know.
                  • proleus
                    ... militants. ... the ... Nixon ... so ... preferable, ... expect ... Ok lets see if you are more intelligent than others here I will try to explain this to
                    Message 9 of 27 , Jun 17, 2002
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                      >
                      > Ariel Sharon, the current Prime Minister of Israel, was blacklisted
                      > from the Israeli government in 1982 following the massacre of Sabra
                      > and Shatila refugee camps in Lebanon that he directed. It is
                      > remarkable how soon the Israelis forgot this disgrace when they
                      > elected him into office. His barbarous campaign into the refugee
                      > camps seems to be fueled by his personal feud with Chairman Arafat,
                      > and elevated with each horrible retaliation by Palestinian
                      militants.
                      >
                      > The point is, the acts of Palestinian militants cannot be state-
                      > sponsored, because there is hardly a shell of government left in
                      the
                      > Palestinian Authority. The actions of the Israeli Defense Force are
                      > state-sponsored, and are directed in the smae cruel manner that
                      Nixon
                      > prosecuted the Vietnam conflict. The intent of my reply was that as
                      > the Palestinian militants who target civilians should be punished,
                      so
                      > should the Israeli government for deliberate attacks on the
                      > Palestinian populace. This is only idealism however, because Israel
                      > remains the United States' most favored ally.
                      >
                      > The Israeli citizens need protection from militants and terrorists,
                      > not Palestinian schoolchildren, housewives, and doctors. Bulldozing
                      > the camps and firing rockets into Palestinian schools serves to
                      > create more militants that it intends to wipe out. Conversely, the
                      > continued suicide attacks on Israeli citizens have spawned a few
                      > zealous groups of Zionists, who I anticipate will begin commiting
                      > attacks on Palestinians.
                      >
                      > No one has the moral high ground. While disengagement is
                      preferable,
                      > the use of limited warfare on both sides would help bring the
                      > conflict to a close. The cycle of revenge will only worsen.
                      >
                      > Your attitude towards the Palestinian people is sadly typical of
                      > fellow Americans. I am glad to continue this debate but fully
                      expect
                      > you to learn nothing from it.
                      >
                      > Cameron

                      Ok lets see if you are more intelligent than others here I will try
                      to explain this to you.

                      Suicide bombings are not cheap. It cost money to procure syntex;
                      expecially in Israel where it could cost as much as 20 times what it
                      would to procure anywhere else. People with money are needed to
                      sponsor the terror attacks. That money has to come from somewhere.

                      The reason that the Israelis whent plowing through jenin refugee camp
                      with buldozers was to weed out the terrorists. Jenin is world renound
                      as a source for Palestinian terrorists.

                      There is absolutely no physical proof that there was a massacre in
                      jenin. Even the United Nations says there was no massacre. I can tell
                      you what did happen though. The Israelis shot only at people who shot
                      at them first. That means that the only innocent persons killed would
                      have been people either foolish or scared enough to run through the
                      crossfire. I don't know what world you were raised in but when
                      someone shoots at you, your first objective is to kill them before
                      they kill you.

                      On top of all this, Israel has begun construction of a very large
                      wall 75 miles long along the border of the west bank. I saw the
                      starts of this thing and it is about 50 feet high, solid concrete
                      with electronic perimeter defenses. Some over there fear it will cut
                      off all relations between the sides, where others in the Israel
                      policical parties fear it may become a border for a future palestine.
                    • proleus
                      ... I try
                      Message 10 of 27 , Jun 17, 2002
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                        --- In deathtoreligion@y..., devas666 <no_reply@y...> wrote:
                        > You're so cute when yer pissed off.
                        > devas

                        I try
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