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Re: [Death To Religion] Hi

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  • praesto12
    Godwin, how are you doing brother? I don t think we will agree on anything? Will we? Man, I hope you have gotten out of the quasi-new age, quasi-atheism
    Message 1 of 202 , Sep 11, 2010
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      Godwin, how are you doing brother? I don't think we will agree on anything? Will

      Man, I hope you have gotten out of the quasi-new age, quasi-atheism thought that
      seemed to be infecting you!  

      Again, as you know by now, you have to define your terms. If by religion you
      mean spiritual expression  of a particular culture and community then I would
      agree. Catholics can kill in the name of their 'religion' . However if you mean
      a Christian attempting to love his neighbor, turn the other cheek and love God
      then I would have to disagree.  Jesus Christ is the answer my friend. I
      sincerely hope that you are doing well.  

      From: Richard Godwin <meta@...>
      To: deathtoreligion@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Sat, September 11, 2010 5:46:34 PM
      Subject: Re: [Death To Religion] Hi

      ""Bad ideas" in the hands of the wrong people can take over entire countries
      and lead to the death of millions"

      And so it is from religion.

      ----- Original Message -----
      From: "praesto12" <Praesto12@...>
      To: <deathtoreligion@yahoogroups.com>
      Sent: Saturday, September 11, 2010 12:50 PM
      Subject: Re: [Death To Religion] Hi

      I don't know if it's proselytizing if they are thinking about leaving the
      I believe you guys can kick me out of your "I hate God because I don't
      in him" group ?

      kaylee I'm just simply trying to talk to you via email. If I offended you
      then I

      I really really sense in you a frustration that I have too, which is Church
      people pretending to be "Christians" who hate people simply for the sake of
      hating them. I truly believe that atheism has nothing to offer you
      intellectually, and spiritually.

      I'm not just talking about my own experiences here. You can look at the
      of the most impactful Atheistic writers, from Darwin, Virigina wolf,
      Rand,Freud,Marx, Nietszche, Sartre, Camus extc. and see that the further one
      moves away from God the more despairing he/she becomes. Again, I was not
      a Christian, I'm just reading the writing on the wall. Atheism fails. When
      the bitterness and self righteousness fades Atheist are left with nothing.
      someone wants to drink poision then I will try not to let them, but the
      truth is
      that ideas can be more destructive than poision. Atheism, darwinism,
      extc are worse than poision. Poision can only kill the body of the person
      it. "Bad ideas" in the hands of the wrong people can take over entire
      and lead to the death of millions.

      From: bestonnet_00 <no_reply@yahoogroups.com>
      To: deathtoreligion@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Sat, September 11, 2010 12:12:43 PM
      Subject: Re: [Death To Religion] Hi

      We've had debates with him months ago.

      --- In deathtoreligion@yahoogroups.com, kaylee coats <sumluvlifilth@...>
      > Has he been doing this for awhile?
      > ________________________________
      > From: Clint <cy2600@...>
      > To: deathtoreligion@yahoogroups.com
      > Sent: Sat, September 11, 2010 7:50:59 AM
      > Subject: Re: [Death To Religion] Hi
      > Are you still proselytizing people? Jeebus fucking krist.
      > praesto12 wrote:
      > > Wow, I can really relate to what you are saying. I have to tell you
      > > though
      > > before we communicate anymore that I am not an Atheist. I was. I
      > > actually
      > > started off as an Atheist and became a Christian. I'm not a good one,
      > > but I
      > > try. I want to tell you that so that you don't feel that I'm trying to
      > > trick

      > > you. I come to these groups seeking debates and discussions.
      > >
      > >
      > > Evil is everywhere isn't it? And Hell does seem so intense doesn't it?
      > > It
      > >
      > > so unfair and brutal. Here's the thing though , you may not like it, you
      > > may

      > > feel anger at God, you may think that your thinking on the issue is
      > > "more
      > >
      > > but it's not really your place, and really God does not like it either.
      > > I
      > > don't think God likes to execute judgement on anyone. In fact I think
      > > he'd
      > > rather die a horrible death then see evil people be judged. That's the
      > > whole

      > > point of the cross.
      > >
      > > Check out Ezekiel 33:11. However I don't know how God can be righteous
      > > and
      > > not execute judgement on evil? Would you want a god like that? I hate
      > > evil
      > > personally. Read proverbs 8:13. I hate murderers, rapist, child
      > > molesters,
      > > death, abuse, all of it. I hate it with every bit of my soul and I will
      > > die
      > > fighting evil in anyway I can! But if there is no God, then there is no
      > > objective moral law. What I mean by that is w/o god morality is just a
      > > matter
      > >of
      > >
      > > choice. So the child molester is "right" because there is no moral
      > > standard
      > > compare him to. I don't agree with that. Evil is real. It is outside of
      > > me,
      > > is in me, and it is aware of what it's doing. To someone that believes
      > > in
      > > evolution evil is not real. It can't be. We are simply over articulate
      > > floating in an absurd abyss of despair and nothigness. Why would it
      > > matter if
      > >
      > > person kills a child, if the can get away with it? Because it's wrong?
      > > In a
      > > Darwinist world view, it is not. Nothing is right or wrong. If anything
      > > the
      > >more
      > >
      > > you can get for yourself the better off you are. Don't let your heart
      > > grow
      > > bitter.
      > >
      > >
      > > I'm sorry i dont' want to bog you down with a long email, but there's a
      > > lot
      > > be said. Ultimately I will say this. Rejecting God will not get you
      > > anywhere.
      > >
      > > Maybe you are not meant to become an Atheist, maybe you are meant to
      > > find
      > > different Christian to be around?
      > >
      > > I am sorry that your church and many churches do not try to talk to you
      > > intelligently or respectfully. maybe that's why you and I have begun
      > > talking?
      > > Read some C.S. Lewis, or Ravi Zacharias, or G.k. Chesterson. We can talk
      > > what you see as "conflicting" in the Bible.
      > >
      > >
      > > I also think that your issues with God are emotional, not intellectual.
      > > I
      > >think
      > >
      > > even if you find answers to all of your questions that you will still
      > > feel
      > > anger at God. I don't know why exactly. Do you feel like God is making
      > > people
      > > gay so that he can send them to hell? I have really thought the same
      > > thing
      > > before. But that's not the God of the Bible. I think being gay is about
      > > like
      > > straight guy that sleeps with a lot of women. Both are situations that
      > > may
      > > be how we are born. May be. ... but simply because I am born a certain
      > >
      > > if that is the case) my being born a certain way does not allow me to
      > > act on
      > >
      > > biological impulses. The rapist, or child molestar could make the same
      > >argument.
      > >
      > > I was born with....whatever...therefor I can ...whatever. I have a lot
      > > of
      > > compassion for gay people. I really really do. I think most have had
      > > some
      > > of issue with a parent. God is not gunning for gay people. God is not
      > > trying
      > >
      > > set people up to be knocked down. Consider the women at the well. She
      > > had 5
      > > husbands, she was not a jew, she really didn't have anything going for
      > > her.
      > > Read the gospel of John 4:1 -42. She was the lowest of the low , just
      > > like
      > > many "religious" people would say about gays, but here you have the son
      > > of
      > > creator of the whole universe, a perfect person, absolutely holy talking
      > > to
      > >this
      > >
      > > social reject.
      > >
      > >
      > > anyhow, we can discuss more. good luck.
      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


      Yahoo! Groups Links

      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Richard Godwin
      First, I didn t deny your Table of Nations. What I did say is that it is borrowed from Sumerian sources previously, and I indicated there is nothing special
      Message 202 of 202 , Sep 27, 2010
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        First, I didn't deny your Table of Nations. What I did say is that it is
        borrowed from Sumerian sources previously, and I indicated there is nothing
        special about genealogy as it is ubiquitous in religions. What do you think
        is significant about it? I don't see a statement of that from you. I don't
        see how logic is involved in this. Reason is, but not logic. Now: please
        state what you think is the significance of this Table of Nations or

        As to the DH, I already said Wellhausen's original view is roundly revised
        by all scholars, or we might say "honed." And I think you should have
        Wesselius in mind, but that doesn't matter. So you don't think "it will go
        the way" I think? How is that? Go what way? You surely need to explain
        that. Where do you see I am not open-minded, or is that just a technique you
        make for diversion? If you think my comments are rhetorical, please explain
        why specifically, i.e. in regard to what?

        I suggest you state your view, and if you wish you can respond to my
        comments. The questions are to bring out from you what you think it means
        and how you explain it in the process of scholarship. Or do you stop with
        Wellhausen? Just let me know.

        You brought it up: the DH. So don't excuse yourself by trying to put some
        ad hominem on me. That's both silly and completely unprofessional. I did
        get to the point, but evidently you can't see it. My opinion is that I do
        accept the DH so long as it is revised to be open to variations in the
        authorship of the various authors and to be for the Primary History rather
        than the Pentateuch, and that the dates of composition are second temple
        times, contrary to most of the DH'ers (although Freedman did admit this for
        most of the authors).

        You brought it up, so evidently you have your definition of the DH in mind:
        Please tell me what is your definition. Don't put the onus on me, because
        it's your topic. Then I'll respond to that. I am not a "fan" of
        Wellhausen, and neither is any other scholar, since his concept has been

        Your ad hominems against me have no relevance here. I suggest those remarks
        you make are only for cover up of something? What would that be?

        So please present your concept of the DH and your arguments. Perhaps I just
        jumped the gun on you. Let's begin again, and this time with YOU.

        All right?


        ----- Original Message -----
        From: "praesto12" <Praesto12@...>
        To: <deathtoreligion@yahoogroups.com>
        Sent: Monday, September 27, 2010 1:30 PM
        Subject: Re: [Death To Religion] Scholarship.

        My time here is whatever it is Godwin. And I am not your friend. You've
        the table of nations, make a ridiculous claim and do nothing to back it
        up. Geneology is not a borrowed motif, nor is the history narrative it caste
        upon mankind. Pay attention before you try to communicate. I readily admit
        limitations in understanding the totality of scripture, as anyone should .
        not the one that makes claims like " I read it all" therefor I know
        about it like you guys. I'm sorry, it's imply impossible. It's an illogical
        statement. to make. And yet, you guys make it frequently throwing logic out
        window. Y'all tend to hide behind your claims of logic, protecting a
        wounded heart. I digress.

        I'd love to go into Wellhausen, and as I've said if I dont know then I don't
        know, but I want to discuss this further. I don't think it will go the way
        think however. I don't see you as being open minded either, so perhaps these
        comments are rhetorical. You brought up many questions. Is there a specif
        one or
        a few that you would like to discuss? Or where you just trying to be a
        know-it-all prick and throw a bunch of question into one email. As I've said
        before get to the point. Let me make is simpler for you.

        Do you follow the Documentary Hypothesis?

        Pra: Define as you deem fit.

        your opinions on the matter?

        Pra: opinions and ideas, if there are specific terms you want to discuss
        then we

        Are you a fan of wellhausen.

        I'll elaborate more specifically for you. What scholarship do you buy into
        regards to either the Tanakh or New Testament? What academic garbage do you
        readily ingest to support your wacked out ideas?

        From: Richard Godwin <meta@...>
        To: deathtoreligion@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Tue, September 21, 2010 10:43:17 PM
        Subject: Re: [Death To Religion] Scholarship.

        I think your time here is short, my friend. I already agreed to discuss
        something in the Bible. Didn't you see that. What time periods do you think
        its parts were composed? for example. Something else of or in the Bible?
        You got nowhere with your Table of Nations, a motif borrowed from other
        societies. I suggest you are the one who doesn't understand the Bible. So
        show me you do.

        "Godwin, simple question . Do you follow the Documentary Hypothesis? What
        your opinions on the matter? Are you a fan of wellhausen?"

        AhHa, now there's something substantive from you. Very good, and we can
        discuss that. My answer depends on what one calls the DH. Wellhausen, as
        you should know, has been surpassed, so we don't need to discuss his
        introductionary theory (Jan-Wim Wesselius, right?). Do you agree? Let's to
        Friedman and Freedman. So you need to give us a definition of it, and tell
        me if it requires the Penteuch, or the Primary History to which it evolved,
        and will it require Friedman's dating? Or as revised in Freedman's dating?
        Does it have to be 4 sources, or can it be less? Do you accept
        archaeological evidence? Shall we consider Berossus and Manetho for
        collateral information? Will you accept the relevance of the Copenhagens
        (Thompson, Lemche, Whitfield), and Peter Davies of Sheffield?

        I suppose you are aware of Friedman's explanation in "Who Wrote the Bible",
        right? And you know of his own revision of that. And your know Freedman's
        revision. Right. So go with it. I await your full definition and
        description, as well as dating. I warn you: I am a revisionist (but in a
        different application than afore mentioned).

        I await your response.


        Sent: Tue, September 21, 2010 11:29:07 AM
        Subject: Re: [Death To Religion] Hi

        I'm ready for you on the Bible. Are you ready? But not the preachy stuff.
        Let's get down to the intellectual stuff. Also early Christian history, if
        you wish. Also different Christologies in the NT, if you wish.


        ----- Original Message -----
        From: "praesto12" <Praesto12@...>
        To: <deathtoreligion@yahoogroups.com>
        Sent: Monday, September 20, 2010 10:35 PM
        Subject: Re: [Death To Religion] Hi

        I do generally think that you guys lack knowledge about the Bible, Christ
        the Church. For many reasons. I also think this about myself. It's not an
        insult, but yes I do believe that.

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