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Questions from a God fearing christian about Atheism

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  • wolfray@ymail.com
    Don t worry I m not going to try to preach to you, so please read the whole message. I have a few legit questions that should be important as it actually has
    Message 1 of 11 , Aug 5, 2009
      Don't worry I'm not going to try to preach to you, so please read the whole message. I have a few legit questions that should be important as it actually has an effect on our eternal destination. I know where my destination is (Heaven) because of my choice of belief. Likewise you also have a choice. So heres my questions.

      1. How do you explain away the authenticity (accuracy) of the Bible? Side note: Some of the best books to read about faith, christianity and the Bible are written by documented athiests who originally set out to write a book proving christianity a hoax. Lee Strobel and Josh McDowell come to mind. If you use the same three test rule (bibliographical test, internal evidence test, external evidence test) to determine the authenticity of ancient literature, the Bible is by far the most reliable book ever written.

      2. How do you explain away the crucifixion?

      3. How do you explain the empty tomb?

      4. How do you explain the resurrection?

      5. How do you explain fulfilled prophecy?

      6. How do you explain the completely changed lives of those who witnessed the risen Lord? (Disiples, Paul, etc.)

      7. Why wasn't christianity proven to be a hoax 2000 years ago? After all there were many just as you who despised Jesus and his message and they had him killed.

      I will conclude this post with several Bible verses for you to ponder and a short story.

      Mark 4:13 so that, "they may be ever seeing but never perceiving, and ever hearing but never understanding, otherwise they might turn and be forgiven!"

      Acts 5:38,39 Therefore, in the present case I advise you; Leave these men alone! Let them go! For if there purpose or activity is of human origin, it weill fail. But if it is from God, you will not be able to stop these men; you will only find yourselves fighting against God.

      Finally, three blind men were walking down a road and bumped into an elephant. The first grabbed its leg and said this must be a tree. The second grabbed the trunk and and said this must be a snake. The third grabbed the tusk and said this must be a spear. Moral of the story. The truth is the truth regardless of what we perceive. SO WHEN WE ARE TALKING ABOUT OUR ETERNAL DESTINATION YOU AND I HAD BETTER KNOW THE TRUTH. ALOT DEPENDS ON IT.

      I hope to have some good discussion. You are welcome to email me also. PLEASE don't try to blow smoke up my butt with any pshyo enlightment. I know of what I speak and you won't change my thinking with it.

      May God Bless
    • Richard Godwin
      Although I am a Christian (very liberal), I ll bite. ... From: To: Sent: Wednesday, August 05, 2009 7:27
      Message 2 of 11 , Aug 6, 2009
        Although I am a Christian (very liberal), I'll bite.

        ----- Original Message -----
        From: <wolfray@...>
        To: <deathtoreligion@yahoogroups.com>
        Sent: Wednesday, August 05, 2009 7:27 PM
        Subject: [Death To Religion] Questions from a God fearing christian about
        Atheism


        > 2. How do you explain away the crucifixion?

        I don't. I would say a probably, since it is supported what probably are
        genuine remarks of Josephus and Pliny (the Roman historian). A man named
        Jesus having a group of followers was crucified by the Romans.

        >
        > 3. How do you explain the empty tomb?

        Probably inauthentic, since there is no acceptable witness (only stories in
        an obviously polemic gospel), with no external evidence, either in writing
        or in artifact of some other kind. There is very high motive to invent it.

        >
        > 4. How do you explain the resurrection?

        Definitely not. Not only is there no witness, EVEN in the Bible, but no
        external evidence, and primarily because it violates what we know of the way
        nature operates, i.e. natural law. Also it very well follows the various
        myths of a dying and rising god, such as Mithra, Dionysius, and Apollonius.

        >
        > 5. How do you explain fulfilled prophecy?

        You need to specify that, and explain in each case how that would apply
        specifically to Jesus Christ.

        >
        > 6. How do you explain the completely changed lives of those who witnessed
        > the risen Lord? (Disiples, Paul, etc.)

        Happens all the time. But here you provide only the Bible, no external
        source. But there are external sources among the early Christians in
        history, you could mention. But primarily, this is not unique in history.

        >
        > 7. Why wasn't christianity proven to be a hoax 2000 years ago? After all
        > there were many just as you who despised Jesus and his message and they
        > had him killed.

        Probably because it's not a hoax, and because very few people despise Jesus
        and his message.

        Thank you for your additions, and surely it is a great temptation you give
        with the carrot of eternal glorious life after we die. I suspect very few
        people would want to go to hell. For sure there are a lot of "blind" people
        out there.

        Richard.

        >
        > I will conclude this post with several Bible verses for you to ponder and
        > a short story.
        >
        > Mark 4:13 so that, "they may be ever seeing but never perceiving, and ever
        > hearing but never understanding, otherwise they might turn and be
        > forgiven!"
        >
        > Acts 5:38,39 Therefore, in the present case I advise you; Leave these men
        > alone! Let them go! For if there purpose or activity is of human origin,
        > it weill fail. But if it is from God, you will not be able to stop these
        > men; you will only find yourselves fighting against God.
        >
        > Finally, three blind men were walking down a road and bumped into an
        > elephant. The first grabbed its leg and said this must be a tree. The
        > second grabbed the trunk and and said this must be a snake. The third
        > grabbed the tusk and said this must be a spear. Moral of the story. The
        > truth is the truth regardless of what we perceive. SO WHEN WE ARE TALKING
        > ABOUT OUR ETERNAL DESTINATION YOU AND I HAD BETTER KNOW THE TRUTH. ALOT
        > DEPENDS ON IT.
        >
        > I hope to have some good discussion. You are welcome to email me also.
        > PLEASE don't try to blow smoke up my butt with any pshyo enlightment. I
        > know of what I speak and you won't change my thinking with it.
        >
        > May God Bless
        >
        >
        >
        > ------------------------------------
        >
        > Yahoo! Groups Links
        >
        >
        >
      • bestonnet_00
        ... Would everything except the bible quotes do? :-) ... Any god that would send me to an eternal concentration camp for honestly picking the wrong belief is
        Message 3 of 11 , Aug 6, 2009
          --- In deathtoreligion@yahoogroups.com, "wolfray@..." <wolfray@...> wrote:
          >
          > Don't worry I'm not going to try to preach to you, so please read
          > the whole message.

          Would everything except the bible quotes do? :-)

          > I have a few legit questions that should be important as it
          > actually has an effect on our eternal destination. I know where my
          > destination is (Heaven) because of my choice of belief. Likewise
          > you also have a choice. So heres my questions.

          Any god that would send me to an eternal concentration camp for honestly picking the wrong belief is not a god that is worthy of worship (nor one that could be trusted to not send those who believe in it to the eternal concentration camp).

          > 1. How do you explain away the authenticity (accuracy) of the
          > Bible?

          The bible is full of contradictions, of both itself and reality.

          There is no need to explain the accuracy of an inaccurate book.

          > Side note: Some of the best books to read about faith, christianity
          > and the Bible are written by documented athiests who originally set
          > out to write a book proving christianity a hoax. Lee Strobel and
          > Josh McDowell come to mind.

          Those books are generally accepted to be so full of logical fallacies as to be worthless.

          If you already believe and just want confirmation of your beliefs then those books probably are pretty good, but if you want a good argument for belief then they aren't such a good thing (and there is very serious doubt as to whether any of them actually understood the arguments for there being no god).

          > If you use the same three test rule (bibliographical test, internal
          > evidence test, external evidence test) to determine the
          > authenticity of ancient literature, the Bible is by far the most
          > reliable book ever written.

          A book which flat out contradicts modern science and much of history is not by any means reliable, there are some good stories in the bible but it is not by any means a science or history textbook.

          > 2. How do you explain away the crucifixion?

          How do we know it even happened in the first place?

          > 3. How do you explain the empty tomb?

          What evidence other than the bible is there that there was even a tomb?

          > 4. How do you explain the resurrection?

          What evidence other than the bible is there for that?

          > 5. How do you explain fulfilled prophecy?

          Writing the prophecy after it has been fulfilled is a good way to appear accurate (and some prophecies are self-fulfilling as well).

          > 6. How do you explain the completely changed lives of those who
          > witnessed the risen Lord? (Disiples, Paul, etc.)

          If you make up a book of fiction you can have any characters life change for any reason you want.

          Besides, Christianity isn't the only religion on the planet, other religions claim much the same thing.

          > 7. Why wasn't christianity proven to be a hoax 2000 years ago?

          Because it didn't even exist 2000 years ago (with the most likely birth date of Jesus being around 4 BCE if he existed (which is unlikely) he'd have been only a teenager then).

          Most likely Christianity only appeared sometime after 70 CE based on other myths. The Jesus Christ character is likely to have been a combination of many other messiah claimants (of which there were a great many at that time) and some of the early Christians didn't even believe he really came to Earth (and that it all took place in a spiritual realm).

          > After all there were many just as you who despised Jesus and his
          > message and they had him killed.

          The bible says that but there is no actual evidence until generations after the alleged birth of Christ.

          > I know of what I speak and you won't change my thinking with it.

          In that case there may not be any point in arguing with you.
        • wolfray@ymail.com
          Thanks Richard for your answers. I sincerely appreciate the way you responded. Most of the time it is hateful, angry, mocking answers, which does not endear me
          Message 4 of 11 , Aug 7, 2009
            Thanks Richard for your answers. I sincerely appreciate the way you responded. Most of the time it is hateful, angry, mocking answers, which does not endear me to this type of discussion.

            I'm going to respond to your answers and if you feel so inclined you can do likewise. I could probably write a book.

            EMPTY TOMB
            -There were witnesses. Your dismissing them because of your prejudice. You have no right to discount a christian witness to an event or happening, anymore than I haver a right to dismiss an athiest's witness to an event or happening.
            -The tomb was sealed to ensure that His followers would not try to steal the body.
            -There were Roman guards in place to ensure that the tomb was not tampered with.
            -The body had been wrapped in linens and spices and they were still in place when the tomb was discovered empty.
            -No one disputed that the tomb was empty, only what happened to the body.

            RESURRECTION
            -No witnesses? There are at least 15 appearances listed in the Bible of the Risen Lord to over 500 people. (I guess there all smoking crack?)
            -You talk of natural law. Since you don't know and understand God then you have a limited ability to understand what he can do. God created the universe, we can't put him in our little box of limited understanding. He made natural law, so He can do anything (ie. raise people from the dead, perform miracles) as witnessed by hundreds if not thousands who saw Jesus (God) raise people from the dead and perform miracles.
            -We have to be able to agree on one thing. The only possible way for there to be a resurrection is that there has to be a God. So Jesus is either a liar or the Risen Lord. If it is a hoax how could it stand up to so much scrutiny over 2000 years and yet survive.
            FULFILLED PROPHECY - Just 2 quick examples. I could give hundreds.
            -Isaiah 7:14 Virgin birth. Written 700 years before it happened!!
            -Isaiah 9:6,7 Coming Messiah. Again 700 years prior. Liar or prophet?

            CHANGED LIVES
            -I'm talking about those in the Bible. Dicisples from cowardly wimps to martyr's. Paul from murdering christians to the greatest saint in the new testament. Question - would you die for your beliefs?

            So you admit it isn't a hoax. That's a start. In reality, this is very serious stuff. Whether I'm right or you are right, the MOST IMPORTANT THING IS TO SEEK THE TRUTH. Being wrong for eternity is not a good thing. Thanks again for your answers.

            RAY
            --- In deathtoreligion@yahoogroups.com, "Richard Godwin" <meta@...> wrote:
            >
            > Although I am a Christian (very liberal), I'll bite.
            >
            > ----- Original Message -----
            > From: <wolfray@...>
            > To: <deathtoreligion@yahoogroups.com>
            > Sent: Wednesday, August 05, 2009 7:27 PM
            > Subject: [Death To Religion] Questions from a God fearing christian about
            > Atheism
            >
            >
            > > 2. How do you explain away the crucifixion?
            >
            > I don't. I would say a probably, since it is supported what probably are
            > genuine remarks of Josephus and Pliny (the Roman historian). A man named
            > Jesus having a group of followers was crucified by the Romans.
            >
            > >
            > > 3. How do you explain the empty tomb?
            >
            > Probably inauthentic, since there is no acceptable witness (only stories in
            > an obviously polemic gospel), with no external evidence, either in writing
            > or in artifact of some other kind. There is very high motive to invent it.
            >
            > >
            > > 4. How do you explain the resurrection?
            >
            > Definitely not. Not only is there no witness, EVEN in the Bible, but no
            > external evidence, and primarily because it violates what we know of the way
            > nature operates, i.e. natural law. Also it very well follows the various
            > myths of a dying and rising god, such as Mithra, Dionysius, and Apollonius.
            >
            > >
            > > 5. How do you explain fulfilled prophecy?
            >
            > You need to specify that, and explain in each case how that would apply
            > specifically to Jesus Christ.
            >
            > >
            > > 6. How do you explain the completely changed lives of those who witnessed
            > > the risen Lord? (Disiples, Paul, etc.)
            >
            > Happens all the time. But here you provide only the Bible, no external
            > source. But there are external sources among the early Christians in
            > history, you could mention. But primarily, this is not unique in history.
            >
            > >
            > > 7. Why wasn't christianity proven to be a hoax 2000 years ago? After all
            > > there were many just as you who despised Jesus and his message and they
            > > had him killed.
            >
            > Probably because it's not a hoax, and because very few people despise Jesus
            > and his message.
            >
            > Thank you for your additions, and surely it is a great temptation you give
            > with the carrot of eternal glorious life after we die. I suspect very few
            > people would want to go to hell. For sure there are a lot of "blind" people
            > out there.
            >
            > Richard.
            >
            > >
            > > I will conclude this post with several Bible verses for you to ponder and
            > > a short story.
            > >
            > > Mark 4:13 so that, "they may be ever seeing but never perceiving, and ever
            > > hearing but never understanding, otherwise they might turn and be
            > > forgiven!"
            > >
            > > Acts 5:38,39 Therefore, in the present case I advise you; Leave these men
            > > alone! Let them go! For if there purpose or activity is of human origin,
            > > it weill fail. But if it is from God, you will not be able to stop these
            > > men; you will only find yourselves fighting against God.
            > >
            > > Finally, three blind men were walking down a road and bumped into an
            > > elephant. The first grabbed its leg and said this must be a tree. The
            > > second grabbed the trunk and and said this must be a snake. The third
            > > grabbed the tusk and said this must be a spear. Moral of the story. The
            > > truth is the truth regardless of what we perceive. SO WHEN WE ARE TALKING
            > > ABOUT OUR ETERNAL DESTINATION YOU AND I HAD BETTER KNOW THE TRUTH. ALOT
            > > DEPENDS ON IT.
            > >
            > > I hope to have some good discussion. You are welcome to email me also.
            > > PLEASE don't try to blow smoke up my butt with any pshyo enlightment. I
            > > know of what I speak and you won't change my thinking with it.
            > >
            > > May God Bless
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > > ------------------------------------
            > >
            > > Yahoo! Groups Links
            > >
            > >
            > >
            >
          • devasma
            You might have better luck using a source outside of the bible. Many dispute the bible s truth, and will not take but the bible says so! as a valid
            Message 5 of 11 , Aug 8, 2009
              You might have better luck using a source outside of the bible. Many dispute the bible's truth, and will not take "but the bible says so!" as a valid argument. Also - "you're" = "you are", "your" = "your". "There" = "there", "they're" = "they are".
              Personally, I think the most important thing is to seek knowledge. Your truth is not my truth is not Bestonnet's truth is not a Buddhist's truth is not a Muslim's truth is not a ... etc. Just because you say it is the truth, doesn't actually make it the truth.

              Devas

              --- In deathtoreligion@yahoogroups.com, "wolfray@..." <wolfray@...> wrote:
              >
              > Thanks Richard for your answers. I sincerely appreciate the way you responded. Most of the time it is hateful, angry, mocking answers, which does not endear me to this type of discussion.
              >
              > I'm going to respond to your answers and if you feel so inclined you can do likewise. I could probably write a book.
              >
              > EMPTY TOMB
              > -There were witnesses. Your dismissing them because of your prejudice. You have no right to discount a christian witness to an event or happening, anymore than I haver a right to dismiss an athiest's witness to an event or happening.
              > -The tomb was sealed to ensure that His followers would not try to steal the body.
              > -There were Roman guards in place to ensure that the tomb was not tampered with.
              > -The body had been wrapped in linens and spices and they were still in place when the tomb was discovered empty.
              > -No one disputed that the tomb was empty, only what happened to the body.
              >
              > RESURRECTION
              > -No witnesses? There are at least 15 appearances listed in the Bible of the Risen Lord to over 500 people. (I guess there all smoking crack?)
              > -You talk of natural law. Since you don't know and understand God then you have a limited ability to understand what he can do. God created the universe, we can't put him in our little box of limited understanding. He made natural law, so He can do anything (ie. raise people from the dead, perform miracles) as witnessed by hundreds if not thousands who saw Jesus (God) raise people from the dead and perform miracles.
              > -We have to be able to agree on one thing. The only possible way for there to be a resurrection is that there has to be a God. So Jesus is either a liar or the Risen Lord. If it is a hoax how could it stand up to so much scrutiny over 2000 years and yet survive.
              > FULFILLED PROPHECY - Just 2 quick examples. I could give hundreds.
              > -Isaiah 7:14 Virgin birth. Written 700 years before it happened!!
              > -Isaiah 9:6,7 Coming Messiah. Again 700 years prior. Liar or prophet?
              >
              > CHANGED LIVES
              > -I'm talking about those in the Bible. Dicisples from cowardly wimps to martyr's. Paul from murdering christians to the greatest saint in the new testament. Question - would you die for your beliefs?
              >
              > So you admit it isn't a hoax. That's a start. In reality, this is very serious stuff. Whether I'm right or you are right, the MOST IMPORTANT THING IS TO SEEK THE TRUTH. Being wrong for eternity is not a good thing. Thanks again for your answers.
              >
              > RAY
              > --- In deathtoreligion@yahoogroups.com, "Richard Godwin" <meta@> wrote:
              > >
              > > Although I am a Christian (very liberal), I'll bite.
              > >
              > > ----- Original Message -----
              > > From: <wolfray@>
              > > To: <deathtoreligion@yahoogroups.com>
              > > Sent: Wednesday, August 05, 2009 7:27 PM
              > > Subject: [Death To Religion] Questions from a God fearing christian about
              > > Atheism
              > >
              > >
              > > > 2. How do you explain away the crucifixion?
              > >
              > > I don't. I would say a probably, since it is supported what probably are
              > > genuine remarks of Josephus and Pliny (the Roman historian). A man named
              > > Jesus having a group of followers was crucified by the Romans.
              > >
              > > >
              > > > 3. How do you explain the empty tomb?
              > >
              > > Probably inauthentic, since there is no acceptable witness (only stories in
              > > an obviously polemic gospel), with no external evidence, either in writing
              > > or in artifact of some other kind. There is very high motive to invent it.
              > >
              > > >
              > > > 4. How do you explain the resurrection?
              > >
              > > Definitely not. Not only is there no witness, EVEN in the Bible, but no
              > > external evidence, and primarily because it violates what we know of the way
              > > nature operates, i.e. natural law. Also it very well follows the various
              > > myths of a dying and rising god, such as Mithra, Dionysius, and Apollonius.
              > >
              > > >
              > > > 5. How do you explain fulfilled prophecy?
              > >
              > > You need to specify that, and explain in each case how that would apply
              > > specifically to Jesus Christ.
              > >
              > > >
              > > > 6. How do you explain the completely changed lives of those who witnessed
              > > > the risen Lord? (Disiples, Paul, etc.)
              > >
              > > Happens all the time. But here you provide only the Bible, no external
              > > source. But there are external sources among the early Christians in
              > > history, you could mention. But primarily, this is not unique in history.
              > >
              > > >
              > > > 7. Why wasn't christianity proven to be a hoax 2000 years ago? After all
              > > > there were many just as you who despised Jesus and his message and they
              > > > had him killed.
              > >
              > > Probably because it's not a hoax, and because very few people despise Jesus
              > > and his message.
              > >
              > > Thank you for your additions, and surely it is a great temptation you give
              > > with the carrot of eternal glorious life after we die. I suspect very few
              > > people would want to go to hell. For sure there are a lot of "blind" people
              > > out there.
              > >
              > > Richard.
              > >
              > > >
              > > > I will conclude this post with several Bible verses for you to ponder and
              > > > a short story.
              > > >
              > > > Mark 4:13 so that, "they may be ever seeing but never perceiving, and ever
              > > > hearing but never understanding, otherwise they might turn and be
              > > > forgiven!"
              > > >
              > > > Acts 5:38,39 Therefore, in the present case I advise you; Leave these men
              > > > alone! Let them go! For if there purpose or activity is of human origin,
              > > > it weill fail. But if it is from God, you will not be able to stop these
              > > > men; you will only find yourselves fighting against God.
              > > >
              > > > Finally, three blind men were walking down a road and bumped into an
              > > > elephant. The first grabbed its leg and said this must be a tree. The
              > > > second grabbed the trunk and and said this must be a snake. The third
              > > > grabbed the tusk and said this must be a spear. Moral of the story. The
              > > > truth is the truth regardless of what we perceive. SO WHEN WE ARE TALKING
              > > > ABOUT OUR ETERNAL DESTINATION YOU AND I HAD BETTER KNOW THE TRUTH. ALOT
              > > > DEPENDS ON IT.
              > > >
              > > > I hope to have some good discussion. You are welcome to email me also.
              > > > PLEASE don't try to blow smoke up my butt with any pshyo enlightment. I
              > > > know of what I speak and you won't change my thinking with it.
              > > >
              > > > May God Bless
              > > >
              > > >
              > > >
              > > > ------------------------------------
              > > >
              > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
              > > >
              > > >
              > > >
              > >
              >
            • Richard Godwin
              ... From: To: Sent: Friday, August 07, 2009 7:28 PM Subject: [Death To Religion] Re: Questions from a God
              Message 6 of 11 , Aug 8, 2009
                ----- Original Message -----
                From: <wolfray@...>
                To: <deathtoreligion@yahoogroups.com>
                Sent: Friday, August 07, 2009 7:28 PM
                Subject: [Death To Religion] Re: Questions from a God fearing christian
                about Atheism


                > Thanks Richard for your answers. I sincerely appreciate the way you
                > responded. Most of the time it is hateful, angry, mocking answers, which
                > does not endear me to this type of discussion.
                >
                > I'm going to respond to your answers and if you feel so inclined you can
                > do likewise. I could probably write a book.

                R: Heaven forbid.

                >
                > EMPTY TOMB
                > -There were witnesses. Your dismissing them because of your prejudice. You
                > have no right to discount a christian witness to an event or happening,
                > anymore than I haver a right to dismiss an athiest's witness to an event
                > or happening.
                > -The tomb was sealed to ensure that His followers would not try to steal
                > the body.
                > -There were Roman guards in place to ensure that the tomb was not tampered
                > with.
                > -The body had been wrapped in linens and spices and they were still in
                > place when the tomb was discovered empty.
                > -No one disputed that the tomb was empty, only what happened to the body.

                R: So-called witnesses in obvious religious polemic and from
                psychologically oriented illusions are not witnesses sufficient for history.
                You believe them because of YOUR prejudice. Witness evidence must be judged
                by rules of history, not on their religion or because of their religion.
                Nothing is discounted a priori. History always admits of possibility.
                Probability is what is required.

                But let's look: How do we know "the tomb was sealed"? We don't unless we
                accept the writing of a polemical author a generation after the supposed
                fact based on some tradition passed along, and that isn't sufficient for
                history. We don't even know if there was a tomb. Ordinarily crucified
                individuals were left to rot or placed into a dump. A few were placed in
                tombs, but there is no sufficient evidence this one was. Roman guards offer
                no support; some say they may have gone asleep; nevertheless, it's only a
                report based on a tradition.

                Your other supposed evidences likewise are insufficient on the same basis.
                Overall, would you say a witness to a UFO landing, even currently rather
                than just a tradition report a generation later, justifies its truth as
                historical evidence? Wouldn't it be necessary for some disinterested people
                to come on the scene and take a look, then go up to it and examine it and
                those little green men coming out?

                Your biggest problem is establishing the historical reliability of the Bible
                as an ONLY witness to history. And that's a BIG 'un. The "empty tomb" is a
                story either that was transmitted through time, or made up by a community
                represented by the author, and that's all.

                >
                > RESURRECTION
                > -No witnesses? There are at least 15 appearances listed in the Bible of
                > the Risen Lord to over 500 people. (I guess there all smoking crack?)

                R: Yes, smoking cannabas. Seriously, such psychological illusions were very
                common during that time, still are somewhat. You should be aware of the
                many explanations of this! Not to mention these apparitions also were
                stories transmitted at least a generation before they are reported in the
                one and only one source, the Bible. 500 people is about as much
                exaggeration as two million people in the renouned "Exodus." In short,
                there is no historical reliability there, not to mention violation of
                natural laws.


                > -You talk of natural law. Since you don't know and understand God then you
                > have a limited ability to understand what he can do. God created the
                > universe, we can't put him in our little box of limited understanding. He
                > made natural law, so He can do anything (ie. raise people from the dead,
                > perform miracles) as witnessed by hundreds if not thousands who saw Jesus
                > (God) raise people from the dead and perform miracles.

                R: So now you have departed from your stated purpose of investigating
                history, to your worldview, the paradigm that involves supposed knowledge
                exactly the opposite of history. So here in midstream you have completely
                changed your purpose, right?

                > -We have to be able to agree on one thing. The only possible way for there
                > to be a resurrection is that there has to be a God. So Jesus is either a
                > liar or the Risen Lord. If it is a hoax how could it stand up to so much
                > scrutiny over 2000 years and yet survive.

                R: No. Theoretically any natural law could be violated, in which case
                scientists would have to revise their understandings and descriptions of
                such laws. The natural laws don't exist; they are only human means of
                understanding the persistent ways nature operates. So a deity would not be
                necessary for there to be a "human resurrection", as differentiated from
                rescusitation, i.e. really dead for a period of time, determined by the
                techniques of science. It would make no difference whether a deity is
                involved.

                You haven't even yet established historically there was a Jesus. But if
                there was, and if Jesus believed he would be resurrected, and he wasn't,
                that wouldn't mean he was lying; rather he was just deluded. After the
                supposed resurrection, that wasn't Jesus, right. The "Risen Lord" would
                have been of a different bodily form, like a ghost who could pass through
                walls and a closed door.

                It isn't a hoax, rather just one of many sincere religious "sightings" and
                beliefs. The time they last is irrelevant. However, you are wrong that it
                has stood up to "so much scrutiny", since is it roundly dismissed by the
                vast majority of scientists, and more people than the few who believe it;
                even back at the time it was reported in the gospels, only a very few people
                out of the other thousands believe it. The target of the stories was the
                Judeans of the time, and how many of them believed it? And even those who
                believe it don't for historical reliability, but rather "on faith," just as
                you do. Already you have abandoned your quest for history!


                > FULFILLED PROPHECY - Just 2 quick examples. I could give hundreds.
                > -Isaiah 7:14 Virgin birth. Written 700 years before it happened!!
                > -Isaiah 9:6,7 Coming Messiah. Again 700 years prior. Liar or prophet?

                R: Hundred aren't necessary. Isaiah reports a "young woman" (ha-almah in
                Hebrew), not a virgin, and the subject had nothing at all to do with the
                birth stories of Jesus. Again, there is no connection in the scripture
                between Isaiah's story and the NT birth stories, except the appropriation of
                it in the said Jesus stories, based on reinterpretation, called pesher or
                midrash. And the same for all of Isaiah. A messiah coming, yes. Jesus, no.
                That is, for the Jews, whom all this is about. Jesus did not meet the Jew's
                requirements for a messiah, and they roundly rejected it, right? Isaiah as
                prophet stands, not a liar.

                >
                > CHANGED LIVES
                > -I'm talking about those in the Bible. Dicisples from cowardly wimps to
                > martyr's. Paul from murdering christians to the greatest saint in the new
                > testament. Question - would you die for your beliefs?

                R: Think of the many changes lives, from religions throughout history, from
                national passion, from all sorts of beliefs. Or just self-willed, or from
                some very impressionable event in someone's history, and martyrdom is
                ubiquitous in all history, even current times. Of course still, all you
                have are polemic writings. Would you die for your so strong belief?

                >
                > So you admit it isn't a hoax. That's a start. In reality, this is very
                > serious stuff. Whether I'm right or you are right, the MOST IMPORTANT
                > THING IS TO SEEK THE TRUTH. Being wrong for eternity is not a good thing.
                > Thanks again for your answers.

                R: Never did I believe "generally" the Biblical stories were meant for the
                purpose of hoax. But some early Church Fathers told the people they should
                believe whether or not they are true. I realize you are worried about your
                eternity. But I'm not.

                So you have abandoned your quest for history. Are you ready to admit that??

                Richard.

                >
                > RAY
                > --- In deathtoreligion@yahoogroups.com, "Richard Godwin" <meta@...> wrote:
                >>
                >> Although I am a Christian (very liberal), I'll bite.
                >>
                >> ----- Original Message -----
                >> From: <wolfray@...>
                >> To: <deathtoreligion@yahoogroups.com>
                >> Sent: Wednesday, August 05, 2009 7:27 PM
                >> Subject: [Death To Religion] Questions from a God fearing christian about
                >> Atheism
                >>
                >>
                >> > 2. How do you explain away the crucifixion?
                >>
                >> I don't. I would say a probably, since it is supported what probably are
                >> genuine remarks of Josephus and Pliny (the Roman historian). A man named
                >> Jesus having a group of followers was crucified by the Romans.
                >>
                >> >
                >> > 3. How do you explain the empty tomb?
                >>
                >> Probably inauthentic, since there is no acceptable witness (only stories
                >> in
                >> an obviously polemic gospel), with no external evidence, either in
                >> writing
                >> or in artifact of some other kind. There is very high motive to invent
                >> it.
                >>
                >> >
                >> > 4. How do you explain the resurrection?
                >>
                >> Definitely not. Not only is there no witness, EVEN in the Bible, but no
                >> external evidence, and primarily because it violates what we know of the
                >> way
                >> nature operates, i.e. natural law. Also it very well follows the various
                >> myths of a dying and rising god, such as Mithra, Dionysius, and
                >> Apollonius.
                >>
                >> >
                >> > 5. How do you explain fulfilled prophecy?
                >>
                >> You need to specify that, and explain in each case how that would apply
                >> specifically to Jesus Christ.
                >>
                >> >
                >> > 6. How do you explain the completely changed lives of those who
                >> > witnessed
                >> > the risen Lord? (Disiples, Paul, etc.)
                >>
                >> Happens all the time. But here you provide only the Bible, no external
                >> source. But there are external sources among the early Christians in
                >> history, you could mention. But primarily, this is not unique in
                >> history.
                >>
                >> >
                >> > 7. Why wasn't christianity proven to be a hoax 2000 years ago? After
                >> > all
                >> > there were many just as you who despised Jesus and his message and they
                >> > had him killed.
                >>
                >> Probably because it's not a hoax, and because very few people despise
                >> Jesus
                >> and his message.
                >>
                >> Thank you for your additions, and surely it is a great temptation you
                >> give
                >> with the carrot of eternal glorious life after we die. I suspect very
                >> few
                >> people would want to go to hell. For sure there are a lot of "blind"
                >> people
                >> out there.
                >>
                >> Richard.
                >>
                >> >
                >> > I will conclude this post with several Bible verses for you to ponder
                >> > and
                >> > a short story.
                >> >
                >> > Mark 4:13 so that, "they may be ever seeing but never perceiving, and
                >> > ever
                >> > hearing but never understanding, otherwise they might turn and be
                >> > forgiven!"
                >> >
                >> > Acts 5:38,39 Therefore, in the present case I advise you; Leave these
                >> > men
                >> > alone! Let them go! For if there purpose or activity is of human
                >> > origin,
                >> > it weill fail. But if it is from God, you will not be able to stop
                >> > these
                >> > men; you will only find yourselves fighting against God.
                >> >
                >> > Finally, three blind men were walking down a road and bumped into an
                >> > elephant. The first grabbed its leg and said this must be a tree. The
                >> > second grabbed the trunk and and said this must be a snake. The third
                >> > grabbed the tusk and said this must be a spear. Moral of the story. The
                >> > truth is the truth regardless of what we perceive. SO WHEN WE ARE
                >> > TALKING
                >> > ABOUT OUR ETERNAL DESTINATION YOU AND I HAD BETTER KNOW THE TRUTH. ALOT
                >> > DEPENDS ON IT.
                >> >
                >> > I hope to have some good discussion. You are welcome to email me also.
                >> > PLEASE don't try to blow smoke up my butt with any pshyo enlightment. I
                >> > know of what I speak and you won't change my thinking with it.
                >> >
                >> > May God Bless
                >> >
                >> >
                >> >
                >> > ------------------------------------
                >> >
                >> > Yahoo! Groups Links
                >> >
                >> >
                >> >
                >>
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > ------------------------------------
                >
                > Yahoo! Groups Links
                >
                >
                >
              • wolfray@ymail.com
                There can t be a better source than the Bible. I don t know what type of research you do, but the evidence that the bible is authentic is overwhelming. The
                Message 7 of 11 , Aug 9, 2009
                  There can't be a better source than the Bible. I don't know what type of research you do, but the evidence that the bible is authentic is overwhelming. The same criteria used to determine any historical document is used on the bible as any other historical document and the evidence is overwhelming. Also there has never been one archeological find to refute an event in the bible. It is God's word. Truth is not relavant to what you believe. The truth is the truth. The sun will rise in the morning. That's true. If your blind you may not believe that there is a sun. Does that mean the blind man knows the truth.

                  You are exactly right in that the most important thing is to seek the truth. If your looking for it through the prism of what man writes then you are not going to find it. The history of man proves that. When have they ever got it right.

                  The difference between you and I is that I am saved and you are not. We're both broken sinners who needs salvation. Where do you think you are going to spend eternity.
                  --- In deathtoreligion@yahoogroups.com, "devasma" <devasma@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > You might have better luck using a source outside of the bible. Many dispute the bible's truth, and will not take "but the bible says so!" as a valid argument. Also - "you're" = "you are", "your" = "your". "There" = "there", "they're" = "they are".
                  > Personally, I think the most important thing is to seek knowledge. Your truth is not my truth is not Bestonnet's truth is not a Buddhist's truth is not a Muslim's truth is not a ... etc. Just because you say it is the truth, doesn't actually make it the truth.
                  >
                  > Devas
                  >
                  > --- In deathtoreligion@yahoogroups.com, "wolfray@" <wolfray@> wrote:
                  > >
                  > > Thanks Richard for your answers. I sincerely appreciate the way you responded. Most of the time it is hateful, angry, mocking answers, which does not endear me to this type of discussion.
                  > >
                  > > I'm going to respond to your answers and if you feel so inclined you can do likewise. I could probably write a book.
                  > >
                  > > EMPTY TOMB
                  > > -There were witnesses. Your dismissing them because of your prejudice. You have no right to discount a christian witness to an event or happening, anymore than I haver a right to dismiss an athiest's witness to an event or happening.
                  > > -The tomb was sealed to ensure that His followers would not try to steal the body.
                  > > -There were Roman guards in place to ensure that the tomb was not tampered with.
                  > > -The body had been wrapped in linens and spices and they were still in place when the tomb was discovered empty.
                  > > -No one disputed that the tomb was empty, only what happened to the body.
                  > >
                  > > RESURRECTION
                  > > -No witnesses? There are at least 15 appearances listed in the Bible of the Risen Lord to over 500 people. (I guess there all smoking crack?)
                  > > -You talk of natural law. Since you don't know and understand God then you have a limited ability to understand what he can do. God created the universe, we can't put him in our little box of limited understanding. He made natural law, so He can do anything (ie. raise people from the dead, perform miracles) as witnessed by hundreds if not thousands who saw Jesus (God) raise people from the dead and perform miracles.
                  > > -We have to be able to agree on one thing. The only possible way for there to be a resurrection is that there has to be a God. So Jesus is either a liar or the Risen Lord. If it is a hoax how could it stand up to so much scrutiny over 2000 years and yet survive.
                  > > FULFILLED PROPHECY - Just 2 quick examples. I could give hundreds.
                  > > -Isaiah 7:14 Virgin birth. Written 700 years before it happened!!
                  > > -Isaiah 9:6,7 Coming Messiah. Again 700 years prior. Liar or prophet?
                  > >
                  > > CHANGED LIVES
                  > > -I'm talking about those in the Bible. Dicisples from cowardly wimps to martyr's. Paul from murdering christians to the greatest saint in the new testament. Question - would you die for your beliefs?
                  > >
                  > > So you admit it isn't a hoax. That's a start. In reality, this is very serious stuff. Whether I'm right or you are right, the MOST IMPORTANT THING IS TO SEEK THE TRUTH. Being wrong for eternity is not a good thing. Thanks again for your answers.
                  > >
                  > > RAY
                  > > --- In deathtoreligion@yahoogroups.com, "Richard Godwin" <meta@> wrote:
                  > > >
                  > > > Although I am a Christian (very liberal), I'll bite.
                  > > >
                  > > > ----- Original Message -----
                  > > > From: <wolfray@>
                  > > > To: <deathtoreligion@yahoogroups.com>
                  > > > Sent: Wednesday, August 05, 2009 7:27 PM
                  > > > Subject: [Death To Religion] Questions from a God fearing christian about
                  > > > Atheism
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > > > 2. How do you explain away the crucifixion?
                  > > >
                  > > > I don't. I would say a probably, since it is supported what probably are
                  > > > genuine remarks of Josephus and Pliny (the Roman historian). A man named
                  > > > Jesus having a group of followers was crucified by the Romans.
                  > > >
                  > > > >
                  > > > > 3. How do you explain the empty tomb?
                  > > >
                  > > > Probably inauthentic, since there is no acceptable witness (only stories in
                  > > > an obviously polemic gospel), with no external evidence, either in writing
                  > > > or in artifact of some other kind. There is very high motive to invent it.
                  > > >
                  > > > >
                  > > > > 4. How do you explain the resurrection?
                  > > >
                  > > > Definitely not. Not only is there no witness, EVEN in the Bible, but no
                  > > > external evidence, and primarily because it violates what we know of the way
                  > > > nature operates, i.e. natural law. Also it very well follows the various
                  > > > myths of a dying and rising god, such as Mithra, Dionysius, and Apollonius.
                  > > >
                  > > > >
                  > > > > 5. How do you explain fulfilled prophecy?
                  > > >
                  > > > You need to specify that, and explain in each case how that would apply
                  > > > specifically to Jesus Christ.
                  > > >
                  > > > >
                  > > > > 6. How do you explain the completely changed lives of those who witnessed
                  > > > > the risen Lord? (Disiples, Paul, etc.)
                  > > >
                  > > > Happens all the time. But here you provide only the Bible, no external
                  > > > source. But there are external sources among the early Christians in
                  > > > history, you could mention. But primarily, this is not unique in history.
                  > > >
                  > > > >
                  > > > > 7. Why wasn't christianity proven to be a hoax 2000 years ago? After all
                  > > > > there were many just as you who despised Jesus and his message and they
                  > > > > had him killed.
                  > > >
                  > > > Probably because it's not a hoax, and because very few people despise Jesus
                  > > > and his message.
                  > > >
                  > > > Thank you for your additions, and surely it is a great temptation you give
                  > > > with the carrot of eternal glorious life after we die. I suspect very few
                  > > > people would want to go to hell. For sure there are a lot of "blind" people
                  > > > out there.
                  > > >
                  > > > Richard.
                  > > >
                  > > > >
                  > > > > I will conclude this post with several Bible verses for you to ponder and
                  > > > > a short story.
                  > > > >
                  > > > > Mark 4:13 so that, "they may be ever seeing but never perceiving, and ever
                  > > > > hearing but never understanding, otherwise they might turn and be
                  > > > > forgiven!"
                  > > > >
                  > > > > Acts 5:38,39 Therefore, in the present case I advise you; Leave these men
                  > > > > alone! Let them go! For if there purpose or activity is of human origin,
                  > > > > it weill fail. But if it is from God, you will not be able to stop these
                  > > > > men; you will only find yourselves fighting against God.
                  > > > >
                  > > > > Finally, three blind men were walking down a road and bumped into an
                  > > > > elephant. The first grabbed its leg and said this must be a tree. The
                  > > > > second grabbed the trunk and and said this must be a snake. The third
                  > > > > grabbed the tusk and said this must be a spear. Moral of the story. The
                  > > > > truth is the truth regardless of what we perceive. SO WHEN WE ARE TALKING
                  > > > > ABOUT OUR ETERNAL DESTINATION YOU AND I HAD BETTER KNOW THE TRUTH. ALOT
                  > > > > DEPENDS ON IT.
                  > > > >
                  > > > > I hope to have some good discussion. You are welcome to email me also.
                  > > > > PLEASE don't try to blow smoke up my butt with any pshyo enlightment. I
                  > > > > know of what I speak and you won't change my thinking with it.
                  > > > >
                  > > > > May God Bless
                  > > > >
                  > > > >
                  > > > >
                  > > > > ------------------------------------
                  > > > >
                  > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                  > > > >
                  > > > >
                  > > > >
                  > > >
                  > >
                  >
                • devasma
                  I didn t say it was important to seek the truth. I said to seek knowledge. These are not the same things. I don t need salvation, nor am I a sinner. I
                  Message 8 of 11 , Aug 9, 2009
                    I didn't say it was important to seek the truth. I said to seek knowledge. These are not the same things. I don't need salvation, nor am I a sinner. I would have to be religious to believe in sin, and I am not. But thanks for trying.
                    Truth is absolutely relevant to what you believe. How do you explain other religions who's truth differs from yours? They are just as certain that their truth is THE truth. Why are they wrong and you are right?
                    Devas

                    --- In deathtoreligion@yahoogroups.com, "wolfray@..." <wolfray@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > There can't be a better source than the Bible. I don't know what type of research you do, but the evidence that the bible is authentic is overwhelming. The same criteria used to determine any historical document is used on the bible as any other historical document and the evidence is overwhelming. Also there has never been one archeological find to refute an event in the bible. It is God's word. Truth is not relavant to what you believe. The truth is the truth. The sun will rise in the morning. That's true. If your blind you may not believe that there is a sun. Does that mean the blind man knows the truth.
                    >
                    > You are exactly right in that the most important thing is to seek the truth. If your looking for it through the prism of what man writes then you are not going to find it. The history of man proves that. When have they ever got it right.
                    >
                    > The difference between you and I is that I am saved and you are not. We're both broken sinners who needs salvation. Where do you think you are going to spend eternity.
                    > --- In deathtoreligion@yahoogroups.com, "devasma" <devasma@> wrote:
                    > >
                    > > You might have better luck using a source outside of the bible. Many dispute the bible's truth, and will not take "but the bible says so!" as a valid argument. Also - "you're" = "you are", "your" = "your". "There" = "there", "they're" = "they are".
                    > > Personally, I think the most important thing is to seek knowledge. Your truth is not my truth is not Bestonnet's truth is not a Buddhist's truth is not a Muslim's truth is not a ... etc. Just because you say it is the truth, doesn't actually make it the truth.
                    > >
                    > > Devas
                    > >
                    > > --- In deathtoreligion@yahoogroups.com, "wolfray@" <wolfray@> wrote:
                    > > >
                    > > > Thanks Richard for your answers. I sincerely appreciate the way you responded. Most of the time it is hateful, angry, mocking answers, which does not endear me to this type of discussion.
                    > > >
                    > > > I'm going to respond to your answers and if you feel so inclined you can do likewise. I could probably write a book.
                    > > >
                    > > > EMPTY TOMB
                    > > > -There were witnesses. Your dismissing them because of your prejudice. You have no right to discount a christian witness to an event or happening, anymore than I haver a right to dismiss an athiest's witness to an event or happening.
                    > > > -The tomb was sealed to ensure that His followers would not try to steal the body.
                    > > > -There were Roman guards in place to ensure that the tomb was not tampered with.
                    > > > -The body had been wrapped in linens and spices and they were still in place when the tomb was discovered empty.
                    > > > -No one disputed that the tomb was empty, only what happened to the body.
                    > > >
                    > > > RESURRECTION
                    > > > -No witnesses? There are at least 15 appearances listed in the Bible of the Risen Lord to over 500 people. (I guess there all smoking crack?)
                    > > > -You talk of natural law. Since you don't know and understand God then you have a limited ability to understand what he can do. God created the universe, we can't put him in our little box of limited understanding. He made natural law, so He can do anything (ie. raise people from the dead, perform miracles) as witnessed by hundreds if not thousands who saw Jesus (God) raise people from the dead and perform miracles.
                    > > > -We have to be able to agree on one thing. The only possible way for there to be a resurrection is that there has to be a God. So Jesus is either a liar or the Risen Lord. If it is a hoax how could it stand up to so much scrutiny over 2000 years and yet survive.
                    > > > FULFILLED PROPHECY - Just 2 quick examples. I could give hundreds.
                    > > > -Isaiah 7:14 Virgin birth. Written 700 years before it happened!!
                    > > > -Isaiah 9:6,7 Coming Messiah. Again 700 years prior. Liar or prophet?
                    > > >
                    > > > CHANGED LIVES
                    > > > -I'm talking about those in the Bible. Dicisples from cowardly wimps to martyr's. Paul from murdering christians to the greatest saint in the new testament. Question - would you die for your beliefs?
                    > > >
                    > > > So you admit it isn't a hoax. That's a start. In reality, this is very serious stuff. Whether I'm right or you are right, the MOST IMPORTANT THING IS TO SEEK THE TRUTH. Being wrong for eternity is not a good thing. Thanks again for your answers.
                    > > >
                    > > > RAY
                    > > > --- In deathtoreligion@yahoogroups.com, "Richard Godwin" <meta@> wrote:
                    > > > >
                    > > > > Although I am a Christian (very liberal), I'll bite.
                    > > > >
                    > > > > ----- Original Message -----
                    > > > > From: <wolfray@>
                    > > > > To: <deathtoreligion@yahoogroups.com>
                    > > > > Sent: Wednesday, August 05, 2009 7:27 PM
                    > > > > Subject: [Death To Religion] Questions from a God fearing christian about
                    > > > > Atheism
                    > > > >
                    > > > >
                    > > > > > 2. How do you explain away the crucifixion?
                    > > > >
                    > > > > I don't. I would say a probably, since it is supported what probably are
                    > > > > genuine remarks of Josephus and Pliny (the Roman historian). A man named
                    > > > > Jesus having a group of followers was crucified by the Romans.
                    > > > >
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > 3. How do you explain the empty tomb?
                    > > > >
                    > > > > Probably inauthentic, since there is no acceptable witness (only stories in
                    > > > > an obviously polemic gospel), with no external evidence, either in writing
                    > > > > or in artifact of some other kind. There is very high motive to invent it.
                    > > > >
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > 4. How do you explain the resurrection?
                    > > > >
                    > > > > Definitely not. Not only is there no witness, EVEN in the Bible, but no
                    > > > > external evidence, and primarily because it violates what we know of the way
                    > > > > nature operates, i.e. natural law. Also it very well follows the various
                    > > > > myths of a dying and rising god, such as Mithra, Dionysius, and Apollonius.
                    > > > >
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > 5. How do you explain fulfilled prophecy?
                    > > > >
                    > > > > You need to specify that, and explain in each case how that would apply
                    > > > > specifically to Jesus Christ.
                    > > > >
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > 6. How do you explain the completely changed lives of those who witnessed
                    > > > > > the risen Lord? (Disiples, Paul, etc.)
                    > > > >
                    > > > > Happens all the time. But here you provide only the Bible, no external
                    > > > > source. But there are external sources among the early Christians in
                    > > > > history, you could mention. But primarily, this is not unique in history.
                    > > > >
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > 7. Why wasn't christianity proven to be a hoax 2000 years ago? After all
                    > > > > > there were many just as you who despised Jesus and his message and they
                    > > > > > had him killed.
                    > > > >
                    > > > > Probably because it's not a hoax, and because very few people despise Jesus
                    > > > > and his message.
                    > > > >
                    > > > > Thank you for your additions, and surely it is a great temptation you give
                    > > > > with the carrot of eternal glorious life after we die. I suspect very few
                    > > > > people would want to go to hell. For sure there are a lot of "blind" people
                    > > > > out there.
                    > > > >
                    > > > > Richard.
                    > > > >
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > I will conclude this post with several Bible verses for you to ponder and
                    > > > > > a short story.
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > Mark 4:13 so that, "they may be ever seeing but never perceiving, and ever
                    > > > > > hearing but never understanding, otherwise they might turn and be
                    > > > > > forgiven!"
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > Acts 5:38,39 Therefore, in the present case I advise you; Leave these men
                    > > > > > alone! Let them go! For if there purpose or activity is of human origin,
                    > > > > > it weill fail. But if it is from God, you will not be able to stop these
                    > > > > > men; you will only find yourselves fighting against God.
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > Finally, three blind men were walking down a road and bumped into an
                    > > > > > elephant. The first grabbed its leg and said this must be a tree. The
                    > > > > > second grabbed the trunk and and said this must be a snake. The third
                    > > > > > grabbed the tusk and said this must be a spear. Moral of the story. The
                    > > > > > truth is the truth regardless of what we perceive. SO WHEN WE ARE TALKING
                    > > > > > ABOUT OUR ETERNAL DESTINATION YOU AND I HAD BETTER KNOW THE TRUTH. ALOT
                    > > > > > DEPENDS ON IT.
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > I hope to have some good discussion. You are welcome to email me also.
                    > > > > > PLEASE don't try to blow smoke up my butt with any pshyo enlightment. I
                    > > > > > know of what I speak and you won't change my thinking with it.
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > May God Bless
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > ------------------------------------
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > >
                    > > > >
                    > > >
                    > >
                    >
                  • bestonnet_00
                    ... There is no evidence whatsoever that the ancient Hebrews were ever slaves in Egypt, yet if the bible were correct that evidence would exist. There s also
                    Message 9 of 11 , Aug 10, 2009
                      --- In deathtoreligion@yahoogroups.com, "wolfray@..." <wolfray@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > There can't be a better source than the Bible. I don't know what
                      > type of research you do, but the evidence that the bible is
                      > authentic is overwhelming. The same criteria used to determine any
                      > historical document is used on the bible as any other historical
                      > document and the evidence is overwhelming. Also there has never
                      > been one archeological find to refute an event in the bible.

                      There is no evidence whatsoever that the ancient Hebrews were ever slaves in Egypt, yet if the bible were correct that evidence would exist.

                      There's also no evidence that the bible was even written at the time the events it describe occurred.

                      > It is God's word. Truth is not relavant to what you believe. The
                      > truth is the truth. The sun will rise in the morning. That's true.

                      The truth is that the god of the bible contradicts reality, if something contradicts reality then it is by definition not true.

                      > If your blind you may not believe that there is a sun. Does that
                      > mean the blind man knows the truth.

                      There are other ways of determining that the sun exists (though I don't know of anyone burnt at the stake for saying the sun doesn't exist).

                      > You are exactly right in that the most important thing is to seek
                      > the truth. If your looking for it through the prism of what man
                      > writes then you are not going to find it. The history of man proves
                      > that. When have they ever got it right.

                      We've tried many things, so far only science has come close to finding the truth (religion has failed quite miserably).
                    • Richard Godwin
                      ... From: To: Sent: Sunday, August 09, 2009 3:47 PM Subject: [Death To Religion] Re: Questions from a God
                      Message 10 of 11 , Aug 10, 2009
                        ----- Original Message -----
                        From: <wolfray@...>
                        To: <deathtoreligion@yahoogroups.com>
                        Sent: Sunday, August 09, 2009 3:47 PM
                        Subject: [Death To Religion] Re: Questions from a God fearing christian
                        about Atheism


                        > There can't be a better source than the Bible. I don't know what type of
                        > research you do, but the evidence that the bible is authentic is
                        > overwhelming. The same criteria used to determine any historical document
                        > is used on the bible as any other historical document and the evidence is
                        > overwhelming. Also there has never been one archeological find to refute
                        > an event in the bible.

                        Really??? What evidence. You talk a big talk, so now let's see some
                        walking. Give me your evidence.


                        It is God's word. Truth is not relavant to what you believe. The truth is
                        the truth. The sun will rise in the morning. That's true. If your blind you
                        may not believe that there is a sun. Does that mean the blind man knows the
                        truth.

                        The Vedas are much earlier, and probably more truth there. The sun doesn't
                        rise. Where do you come from?

                        >
                        > You are exactly right in that the most important thing is to seek the
                        > truth. If your looking for it through the prism of what man writes then
                        > you are not going to find it. The history of man proves that. When have
                        > they ever got it right.

                        R: So God wrote it? Did you see him do that? Is your God a genocidal
                        maniac as the Bible says?

                        >
                        > The difference between you and I is that I am saved and you are not. We're
                        > both broken sinners who needs salvation. Where do you think you are going
                        > to spend eternity.

                        R: I think you will die and be gone just like everyone else. What proof do
                        you have otherwise?--not something your God wrote. People fool themselves
                        all the time/

                        > --- In deathtoreligion@yahoogroups.com, "devasma" <devasma@...> wrote:
                        >>
                        >> You might have better luck using a source outside of the bible. Many
                        >> dispute the bible's truth, and will not take "but the bible says so!" as
                        >> a valid argument. Also - "you're" = "you are", "your" = "your". "There"
                        >> = "there", "they're" = "they are".
                        >> Personally, I think the most important thing is to seek knowledge. Your
                        >> truth is not my truth is not Bestonnet's truth is not a Buddhist's truth
                        >> is not a Muslim's truth is not a ... etc. Just because you say it is the
                        >> truth, doesn't actually make it the truth.

                        R: I think you should take it more easy with that crack you're smoking. It
                        might kill you, eternally dead.


                        >>
                        >> Devas
                        >>
                      • Clint
                        ... What else is packed more full of lies, contradictions, and exaggerations than the bible? It s definitely the best source.
                        Message 11 of 11 , Aug 15, 2009
                          wolfray@... wrote:
                          > There can't be a better source than the Bible.

                          What else is packed more full of lies, contradictions, and
                          exaggerations than the bible? It's definitely the best source.
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