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Re: [Death To Religion] Jews.

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  • a a
    ksch, I can see where the reasoning of  a Book written by a group about a group may be bias, and generally this is the case. But Scripture is the most
    Message 1 of 17 , Feb 13, 2009
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      ksch, I can see where the reasoning of  a Book "written" by a group about a group may be bias, and generally this is the case. But Scripture is the most brutally honest text I have seen, and there is nothing flattering about the Jews presented. IN fact, most of the Bible is about how the Jews or certain Jews completey fail their mission before God. Read more of it and you will see.

      --- On Fri, 2/13/09, Hannah Miriam <baruch_emmet@...> wrote:


      From: Hannah Miriam <baruch_emmet@...>
      Subject: [Death To Religion] Re: Dear Hannah
      To: deathtoreligion@yahoogroups.com
      Date: Friday, February 13, 2009, 12:28 PM






      kschweibert wrote:Does the fact that the Old Testement was written by the Hebrews,
      about the Hebrews, and for the Hebrews cause any concern that there
      might just be a hint of bias?
       
      -----
       
      ALL written information is written for the audience of the author, no matter what time and place. There is NO unbiased writing. Even user manuals for techology are biased... they only address the things that the company feels the end-user should consider when attempting to use the device.
       
      Ever compare British and American versions of the Revolution/Colonial Revolt?
       
      The question is not about the bias, the ommissions, or exaggerations. The question is the value to the end user.
       
      One should analyze Hebrew scripture the way one would a 4000 year old inscription in Egypt or Assyria. The same biases exist; it doesn't invalidate the document.
       
      And if one looks at the document closely, what emerges is the story of a family split by famine; one part goes into Egypt, the other stays put. Of the part that stays put, some stay true to Abrahamic monotheism, and some do not. When the Egyptian crew begins to reassimilate with the monotheistic branch of the people who stayed, there is civil war between the montheists and the polytheists, and the monotheists win.
       
      A rather interesting hint to this is the existence of Israel-tribe names, such as Dan, already referring to geographic/tribal areas in Canaan before Moses and Joshua.
       
      There are quite a few Jewish families who never left Palestine at the Roman diaspora and have stayed put there for the last 2000 years; good luck finding families that are Moslem/Christian Palestinians who could make the same claim... most are descended from families who immigrated to the area after the Roman destruction of Jerusalem.
       
      I'll also bet that if you go back in your own ancestry, and choose to return to one of the countries of which you predominantly descend, many people would welcome you if you explain why you are immigrating. .. coming home.
       
      There is only one place where Jews, as Jews, can truly have that happen... Israel.
       
      Hannah

       
      "...Well, now that we have seen each other," said the Unicorn, "If you'll believe in me, I'll believe in you."
      -- Through the Looking Glass by Lewis Carroll
       

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    • kschwiebert@prodigy.net
      ... I have read it, carefully. The self criticism is a central theme and there is a good reason for it. Jews lost their temple to invaders and had to come up
      Message 2 of 17 , Feb 13, 2009
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        --- In deathtoreligion@yahoogroups.com, a a <Praesto12@...> wrote:

        I have read it, carefully. The self criticism is a central theme and
        there is a good reason for it. Jews lost their temple to invaders and
        had to come up with reasons why god would let this happen to them. Of
        course, it was reasoned that some of them had failed to follow the
        laws that god had laid out for them. They broke the covenant.
        Obviously, if they were the "chosen people" god must have purposely
        allowed them to be overrun. It could not be that the Romans had a
        superior military, better technology, more money. It had to be in
        god's plan. The vast majority of the book is either explaining why
        this catastrophe happened, or developing prophecies about when and
        how the temple would be restored.

        Is that pretty much it or did I miss something important?

        My Professor was Dr. Ira Chernus. Google him, he was a great
        instructor.



        >
        > ksch, I can see where the reasoning of  a Book "written" by a group
        about a group may be bias, and generally this is the case. But
        Scripture is the most brutally honest text I have seen, and there is
        nothing flattering about the Jews presented. IN fact, most of the
        Bible is about how the Jews or certain Jews completey fail their
        mission before God. Read more of it and you will see.
        >
        > --- On Fri, 2/13/09, Hannah Miriam <baruch_emmet@...> wrote:
        >
        >
        > From: Hannah Miriam <baruch_emmet@...>
        > Subject: [Death To Religion] Re: Dear Hannah
        > To: deathtoreligion@yahoogroups.com
        > Date: Friday, February 13, 2009, 12:28 PM
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > kschweibert wrote:Does the fact that the Old Testement was written
        by the Hebrews,
        > about the Hebrews, and for the Hebrews cause any concern that there
        > might just be a hint of bias?
        >  
        > -----
        >  
        > ALL written information is written for the audience of the author,
        no matter what time and place. There is NO unbiased writing. Even
        user manuals for techology are biased... they only address the things
        that the company feels the end-user should consider when attempting
        to use the device.
        >  
        > Ever compare British and American versions of the
        Revolution/Colonial Revolt?
        >  
        > The question is not about the bias, the ommissions, or
        exaggerations. The question is the value to the end user.
        >  
        > One should analyze Hebrew scripture the way one would a 4000 year
        old inscription in Egypt or Assyria. The same biases exist; it
        doesn't invalidate the document.
        >  
        > And if one looks at the document closely, what emerges is the story
        of a family split by famine; one part goes into Egypt, the other
        stays put. Of the part that stays put, some stay true to Abrahamic
        monotheism, and some do not. When the Egyptian crew begins to
        reassimilate with the monotheistic branch of the people who stayed,
        there is civil war between the montheists and the polytheists, and
        the monotheists win.
        >  
        > A rather interesting hint to this is the existence of Israel-tribe
        names, such as Dan, already referring to geographic/tribal areas in
        Canaan before Moses and Joshua.
        >  
        > There are quite a few Jewish families who never left Palestine at
        the Roman diaspora and have stayed put there for the last 2000 years;
        good luck finding families that are Moslem/Christian Palestinians who
        could make the same claim... most are descended from families who
        immigrated to the area after the Roman destruction of Jerusalem.
        >  
        > I'll also bet that if you go back in your own ancestry, and choose
        to return to one of the countries of which you predominantly descend,
        many people would welcome you if you explain why you are
        immigrating. .. coming home.
        >  
        > There is only one place where Jews, as Jews, can truly have that
        happen... Israel.
        >  
        > Hannah
        >
        >  
        > "...Well, now that we have seen each other," said the Unicorn, "If
        you'll believe in me, I'll believe in you."
        > -- Through the Looking Glass by Lewis Carroll
        >  
        >
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      • Hannah Miriam
        kschwiebert wrote: It could not be that the Romans had a superior military, better technology, more money.   ...   Hmmm... Cyrus the Persian had a superior
        Message 3 of 17 , Feb 13, 2009
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          kschwiebert wrote: It could not be that the Romans had a
          superior military, better technology, more money.
           
          ------
           
          Hmmm... Cyrus the Persian had a superior military, better technology, and more money, and he restored Israel. lol!
           
          Lack of community-oriented ethical/moral behavior results in a decline that leaves any group open to corruption, reduced quality and quantity of productivity, and lowered defenses. That is what is documented repeatedly (because people never learn the first zillion times they go through something) in Hebrew scripture.
           
          Your mention of favorite instructor does indeed explain your biases. However, a Republican ivory tower in Colorado does not provide clear perspectives on the reality on the ground.
           
          I'd invite him to go live in Israel for a while, presenting himself as an Israeli wanting to live peacably with Palestinian neighbors, and see how long his current attitudes last.
           
          Hannah
           
           
           
           
          The failure in Roman times was not in ritual, but in intent and motivation. Which was warned about repeatedly in prior centuries... Michah, for example. People driven by social appearance rather than true spiritual and ethical focus weaken their community.
           


           
          "...Well, now that we have seen each other," said the Unicorn, "If you'll believe in me, I'll believe in you."
          -- Through the Looking Glass by Lewis Carroll
           




          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • kschwiebert@prodigy.net
          ... Mountains. I have been a liberal my entire life, much to may parent s dismay, and I have the cancelled checks to prove it. You can take a shot at Dr.
          Message 4 of 17 , Feb 14, 2009
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            --- In deathtoreligion@yahoogroups.com, Hannah Miriam
            <baruch_emmet@...> wrote:
            >
            > kschwiebert wrote: It could not be that the Romans had a
            > superior military, better technology, more money.
            >  
            >Boulder, circa 1977-1983, was known as the Berkeley of the Rocky
            Mountains. I have been a liberal my entire life, much to may parent's
            dismay, and I have the cancelled checks to prove it. You can take a
            shot at Dr. Chernus if you like, I am only pointing out that I have
            some formal education in these matters. I suppose any professor, once
            identified, can be pigeon-holed.

            As far as the point you are making about Cyrus the Great, I am afraid
            you have lost me. ------
            >  
            > Hmmm... Cyrus the Persian had a superior military, better
            technology, and more money, and he restored Israel. lol!
            >  
            > Lack of community-oriented ethical/moral behavior results in a
            decline that leaves any group open to corruption, reduced quality and
            quantity of productivity, and lowered defenses. That is what is
            documented repeatedly (because people never learn the first zillion
            times they go through something) in Hebrew scripture.
            >  
            > Your mention of favorite instructor does indeed explain your
            biases. However, a Republican ivory tower in Colorado does not
            provide clear perspectives on the reality on the ground.
            >  
            > I'd invite him to go live in Israel for a while, presenting himself
            as an Israeli wanting to live peacably with Palestinian neighbors,
            and see how long his current attitudes last.
            >  
            > Hannah
            >  
            >  
            >  
            >  
            > The failure in Roman times was not in ritual, but in intent and
            motivation. Which was warned about repeatedly in prior centuries...
            Michah, for example. People driven by social appearance rather than
            true spiritual and ethical focus weaken their community.
            >  
            >
            >
            >  
            > "...Well, now that we have seen each other," said the Unicorn, "If
            you'll believe in me, I'll believe in you."
            > -- Through the Looking Glass by Lewis Carroll
            >  
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            >
          • kschwiebert@prodigy.net
            ... Hannah-my objection is only related to using ancient scripture as a rationale for politics. I wish we had a Muslim guest here to debate, so you could see
            Message 5 of 17 , Feb 14, 2009
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              --- In deathtoreligion@yahoogroups.com, Hannah Miriam
              <baruch_emmet@...> wrote:
              >
              Hannah-my objection is only related to using ancient scripture as a
              rationale for politics. I wish we had a Muslim guest here to debate,
              so you could see there is no prejudice against any particualar
              religion, but against fundamentalists in general. They (Muslims) are
              far more objectionable, in my opinion, because of their stone-age
              attitude towards women and women's rights, among other things.
              This toxic brew of Jewish fundamentalists, Islamic radicals, and now
              Christian fundamentalists is leading us all off the cliff, and if
              secular people do not wake up and fight back, we will regret it
              someday. The Christian involvement in the conflict is, as you know,
              aimed at restoring Israel so the apocalypse can happen, and all their
              Jewish allies can be condemned to hell (unless they convert, of
              course). Strange bedfellows indeed.


              > kschwiebert wrote: It could not be that the Romans had a
              > superior military, better technology, more money.
              >  
              > ------
              >  
              > Hmmm... Cyrus the Persian had a superior military, better
              technology, and more money, and he restored Israel. lol!
              >  
              > Lack of community-oriented ethical/moral behavior results in a
              decline that leaves any group open to corruption, reduced quality and
              quantity of productivity, and lowered defenses. That is what is
              documented repeatedly (because people never learn the first zillion
              times they go through something) in Hebrew scripture.
              >  
              > Your mention of favorite instructor does indeed explain your
              biases. However, a Republican ivory tower in Coloado does not proide
              clear perspectives on the reality on the ground.
              >  
              > I'd invite him to go live in Israel for a while, presenting himself
              as an Israeli wanting to live peacably with Palestinian neighbors,
              and see how long his current attitudes last.
              >  
              > Hannah
              >  
              >  
              >  
              >  
              > The failure in Roman times was not in ritual, but in intent and
              motivation. Which was warned about repeatedly in prior centuries...
              Michah, for example. People driven by social appearance rather than
              true spiritual and ethical focus weaken their community.
              >  
              >
              >
              >  
              > "...Well, now that we have seen each other," said the Unicorn, "If
              you'll believe in me, I'll believe in you."
              > -- Through the Looking Glass by Lewis Carroll
              >  
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >
            • Richard Godwin
              ... From: Hannah Miriam To: Sent: Friday, February 13, 2009 10:59 PM Subject: [Death To Religion]
              Message 6 of 17 , Feb 14, 2009
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                ----- Original Message -----
                From: "Hannah Miriam" <baruch_emmet@...>
                To: <deathtoreligion@yahoogroups.com>
                Sent: Friday, February 13, 2009 10:59 PM
                Subject: [Death To Religion] Re: Jews.


                Hmmm... Cyrus the Persian had a superior military, better technology, and
                more money, and he restored Israel. lol!

                R: Apparently you don't know why Cyrus liberated the new generation which
                became called the Yehud. He wanted them to be a buffer against the
                threatening Egyptians. Furthermore, they were not really liberated or
                restored; they were a colony of Persia, under Persian rule. You missed all
                that, uh?

                Lack of community-oriented ethical/moral behavior results in a decline that
                leaves any group open to corruption, reduced quality and quantity of
                productivity, and lowered defenses. That is what is documented repeatedly
                (because people never learn the first zillion times they go through
                something) in Hebrew scripture.

                R: Baloney. The Bible clearly shows the presence of community-oriented
                people, albeit in more than one community, and there is very little
                reference to immorality except for adultery, not enough for any nation to
                self-destruct. The Bible shows the real sin of Israel was recognizing and
                worshiping other gods, idols, etc, and the emphasis on population increase
                inhibited by adultery. Furthermore, the Bible claims that their God himself
                caused the destruction of Jerusalem and exile of the people, loss of their
                land. He used Neb as his tool to destroy his people.

                Richard.
              • Hannah Miriam
                kschweibert wrote: As far as the point you are making about Cyrus the Great, I am afraid you have lost me. ------   ...   A gentile viewed as a messiah by
                Message 7 of 17 , Feb 15, 2009
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                  kschweibert wrote: As far as the point you are making about Cyrus the Great, I am afraid
                  you have lost me. ------
                   
                  -----
                   
                  A gentile viewed as a messiah by the Jewish people, for having restored Israel from the Babylonian exile. It isn't how large the army or other resources, it is what is done with it.
                   
                  Judaism has never viewed righteousness, nor Divine inspiration, to be limited to Jews.
                   
                  Nor disproportionate military forces to have anything to do with victory, although numbers do help (e.g. certain battles of the Maccabees, etc.).
                   
                   
                  Hannah


                   
                  "...Well, now that we have seen each other," said the Unicorn, "If you'll believe in me, I'll believe in you."
                  -- Through the Looking Glass by Lewis Carroll
                   




                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Hannah Miriam
                  Richard wrote: Apparently you don t know why Cyrus liberated the new generation which became called the Yehud. He wanted them to be a buffer against the
                  Message 8 of 17 , Feb 15, 2009
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                    Richard wrote: Apparently you don't know why Cyrus liberated the new generation which
                    became called the Yehud. He wanted them to be a buffer against the
                    threatening Egyptians.
                     
                    ------
                     
                    To each his own state of mind. Judah saw itself as free. Writers bias, remember?
                     
                    As an American, do you see yourself as a free person? By whose definition?
                     
                    -------
                     
                    Richard wrote: The Bible clearly shows the presence of community-oriented
                    people, albeit in more than one community, and there is very little
                    reference to immorality except for adultery, not enough for any nation to
                    self-destruct.
                     
                    -----
                     
                    Really. Does your wife know you view adultery as something that does not shake the very foundation of family and community?
                     
                    ----
                     
                    Richard wrote: The Bible shows the real sin of Israel was recognizing and
                    worshiping other gods, idols, etc, and the emphasis on population increase
                    inhibited by adultery.
                     
                    -----
                     
                    Now you're contradicting yourself. Those things are BIG deals... and adultery doesn't inhibit population increase, it inhibits stable family structure and a child's sense of identity.
                     
                    -----
                     
                    Richard wrote: Furthermore, the Bible claims that their God himself
                    caused the destruction of Jerusalem and exile of the people, loss of their
                    land. He used Neb as his tool to destroy his people.
                     
                    ----
                     
                    How is that contradicting anything I am saying?
                     
                    Hannah
                     


                     
                    "...Well, now that we have seen each other," said the Unicorn, "If you'll believe in me, I'll believe in you."
                    -- Through the Looking Glass by Lewis Carroll
                     




                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • Hannah Miriam
                    kschweibert wrote: My objection is only related to using ancient scripture as a rationale for politics.   ...   Unfortunately, then, politics runs on how
                    Message 9 of 17 , Feb 15, 2009
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                      kschweibert wrote: My objection is only related to using ancient scripture as a
                      rationale for politics.
                       
                      ------
                       
                      Unfortunately, then, politics runs on how groups define themselves and each other.
                       
                      Hannah


                      "...Well, now that we have seen each other," said the Unicorn, "If you'll believe in me, I'll believe in you."
                      -- Through the Looking Glass by Lewis Carroll
                       




                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • Richard Godwin
                      ... From: Hannah Miriam To: Sent: Sunday, February 15, 2009 9:51 AM Subject: [Death To Religion]
                      Message 10 of 17 , Feb 15, 2009
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                        ----- Original Message -----
                        From: "Hannah Miriam" <baruch_emmet@...>
                        To: <deathtoreligion@yahoogroups.com>
                        Sent: Sunday, February 15, 2009 9:51 AM
                        Subject: [Death To Religion] Re: Jews.


                        Richard wrote: Apparently you don't know why Cyrus liberated the new
                        generation which
                        became called the Yehud. He wanted them to be a buffer against the
                        threatening Egyptians.

                        ------

                        To each his own state of mind. Judah saw itself as free. Writers bias,
                        remember?

                        R: Yes of course, anywhere would be better than trapped in exile. btw not
                        Judah: They died out in exile; no Israelites. Those restored were called
                        the Yehud, the next generation. As stated in Isaiah, God refused to
                        liberate any Israelites. They weren't really free, but from the practical
                        standpoint they were, so as they toed the line.

                        As an American, do you see yourself as a free person? By whose definition?

                        R: Definitely free. I can go where I want to in this country or abroad.
                        I can move to Mexico (considered that), or Costa Rica (considered that). I
                        can say what I want to say (but not fire in a crowed theater), just as the
                        news media can. I can cuss the president out, burn the flag, be a
                        communist, Hitlerite, and on and on. That would be by anyone's definition;
                        yours too? How free do you think free is?

                        -------

                        Richard wrote: The Bible clearly shows the presence of community-oriented
                        people, albeit in more than one community, and there is very little
                        reference to immorality except for adultery, not enough for any nation to
                        self-destruct.

                        -----

                        Really. Does your wife know you view adultery as something that does not
                        shake the very foundation of family and community?

                        R: Adultery is practiced all the time by both Jews and Christians, by the
                        latter probably more than non-Christians. Sometimes is its approved in
                        particular families. Surely adultery is not viewed in modern times like it
                        was in Judaism, which based its prohibition on limiting population growth.
                        Remember the covenant: you shall multiply. How else to conquer the land
                        their God gave to them, and then hold it? They could have cared less for
                        the "outsiders": Jewish laws were meant only for them, their God's chosen
                        people. Kill all those foreigners.

                        ----

                        Richard wrote: The Bible shows the real sin of Israel was recognizing and
                        worshiping other gods, idols, etc, and the emphasis on population increase
                        inhibited by adultery.

                        -----

                        Now you're contradicting yourself. Those things are BIG deals... and
                        adultery doesn't inhibit population increase, it inhibits stable family
                        structure and a child's sense of identity.

                        R: Inhibiting stable family structure, etc. is inhibited by adultery: In
                        the Bible, such family values depended on not committing adultery.
                        -----

                        Richard wrote: Furthermore, the Bible claims that their God himself
                        caused the destruction of Jerusalem and exile of the people, loss of their
                        land. He used Neb as his tool to destroy his people.

                        ----

                        How is that contradicting anything I am saying?

                        R: You said because Israelites sinned, didn't obey their God. The point is
                        that the divine power of the people did them in, not their sins. Of course
                        you would say the God did that because of the sinning, and of course that is
                        the way the Bible rationalized it, as the cause. But the point remains it
                        was their covental God that did it.

                        Richard.

                        Hannah




                        "...Well, now that we have seen each other," said the Unicorn, "If you'll
                        believe in me, I'll believe in you."
                        -- Through the Looking Glass by Lewis Carroll





                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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                      • Hannah Miriam
                        Richard wrote: Those restored were called the Yehud, the next generation.   ...   Eh, your lack of knowledge of Hebrew is showing.   There is no J in
                        Message 11 of 17 , Feb 16, 2009
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                          Richard wrote: Those restored were called
                          the Yehud, the next generation.
                           
                          -----
                           
                          Eh, your lack of knowledge of Hebrew is showing.
                           
                          There is no "J" in Hebrew. "Yehudah" IS the tribe of Judah. You are mixing your scripture to suit your agenda, too. What possible Isaiah verses are you referring to?
                           
                          -----
                           
                          Richard wrote: Definitely free.
                           
                          ----
                           
                          The restored land of Judah made its own decisions. Yes, paid taxes. You do to, no? But had their own government, and made their own choices. Jews were free to travel, to do the work they chose for themselves, to speak their own language and in their own way.
                           
                          -----
                           
                          Richard wrote: Surely adultery is not viewed in modern times like it
                          was in Judaism, which based its prohibition on limiting population growth.

                          ------
                           
                          Ah, everyone's doing it, so it isn't such a bad deal... your wife knows you feel this way? ... and where the heck are you getting the idea that it limits population growth?
                           
                          It limits children's futures due to lack of a stable home life and steady resources.
                           
                          -----
                           
                          Richard wrote: You said because Israelites sinned, didn't obey their God. The point is
                          that the divine power of the people did them in, not their sins.
                           
                          -----
                           
                          What the heck is the "divine power of the people," and how would divine power as found in people be something that does a people in?
                           
                          What the heck do you think sin is?
                           
                          Hannah
                           


                           
                          "...Well, now that we have seen each other," said the Unicorn, "If you'll believe in me, I'll believe in you."
                          -- Through the Looking Glass by Lewis Carroll
                           




                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • Richard Godwin
                          ... From: Hannah Miriam To: Sent: Monday, February 16, 2009 6:34 AM Subject: [Death To Religion]
                          Message 12 of 17 , Feb 16, 2009
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                            ----- Original Message -----
                            From: "Hannah Miriam" <baruch_emmet@...>
                            To: <deathtoreligion@yahoogroups.com>
                            Sent: Monday, February 16, 2009 6:34 AM
                            Subject: [Death To Religion] Re: Jews.


                            Richard wrote: Those restored were called
                            the Yehud, the next generation.

                            -----

                            Eh, your lack of knowledge of Hebrew is showing.

                            There is no "J" in Hebrew. "Yehudah" IS the tribe of Judah. You are mixing
                            your scripture to suit your agenda, too. What possible Isaiah verses are you
                            referring to?

                            R: Your lack of knowledge is showing: Numerous historians and scholars
                            have written about this: the Yehud were a new generation from the no-longer
                            existing Israelites. I can point you to some writings on this if you want
                            to get educated on it.
                            -----

                            Richard wrote: Definitely free.

                            ----

                            The restored land of Judah made its own decisions. Yes, paid taxes. You do
                            to, no? But had their own government, and made their own choices. Jews were
                            free to travel, to do the work they chose for themselves, to speak their own
                            language and in their own way.

                            R: Not the restored land of Judah. The Yehud went to the Benjamin area,
                            then later up to Jerusalem where some people were living. They did mor than
                            pay taxes to Persia. They were controlled by Persia. Read your Bible!
                            They were self-controlled under the umbrella control of Persia, and in such
                            restricted as to what they could do. Read your Bible.

                            -----

                            Richard wrote: Surely adultery is not viewed in modern times like it
                            was in Judaism, which based its prohibition on limiting population growth.

                            ------

                            Ah, everyone's doing it, so it isn't such a bad deal... your wife knows you
                            feel this way? ... and where the heck are you getting the idea that it
                            limits population growth?

                            R: I didn't say everyone. In modern times adultery was not considered a
                            major sin; in the Bible it is THE major sin along with that other major sin:
                            idolatry, i.e. worshipping other gods: that would be like Yahweh's consort
                            Asherah, with much evidence at least many of the Judaists worshipped. No
                            wife for me. In the Bible records, adultery was a major sin because it
                            upset family stability, as I already said, and the God required high
                            population growth.

                            It limits children's futures due to lack of a stable home life and steady
                            resources.

                            R: In the Bible it was perceive by the covenant relationship to limit
                            children. Modern times are somewhat different.

                            -----

                            Richard wrote: You said because Israelites sinned, didn't obey their God.
                            The point is
                            that the divine power of the people did them in, not their sins.

                            -----

                            What the heck is the "divine power of the people," and how would divine
                            power as found in people be something that does a people in?

                            R: The divine power was Israel's God.

                            What the heck do you think sin is?

                            R: Considerably different in modern times than it was in ancient times, or
                            specifically in the Hebrew Bible, where the greatest sins were idolatry and
                            adultery, and these for practical purposes. You cannot impose modern ideas
                            of sin back onto ancient people, or especially as portrayed in the Bible.

                            Richard.

                            Hannah




                            "...Well, now that we have seen each other," said the Unicorn, "If you'll
                            believe in me, I'll believe in you."
                            -- Through the Looking Glass by Lewis Carroll





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                            18:09:00
                          • Hannah Miriam
                            Richard wrote: Your lack of knowledge is showing: Numerous historians and scholars have written about this: the Yehud were a new generation from the no-longer
                            Message 13 of 17 , Feb 19, 2009
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                              Richard wrote: Your lack of knowledge is showing: Numerous historians and scholars
                              have written about this: the Yehud were a new generation from the no-longer
                              existing Israelites.
                               
                              -----
                               
                              From what "academic" sources are you finding those "historians and scholars?" The things you post like this are primarily found in sources like Stormfront, and fundamentalist Christian groups. Totally made up to suit the agenda of those who want modern Jews to be pretenders rather than the real thing, so that they are easily villianized while the people doing it still can value the ancient Israelites.
                               
                              Your supposed fact is right up there with "navel oranges aren't oranges."
                               
                              Yehudim means "of the tribe of Judah."
                               
                              And you still haven't given the Isaiah verses that support your point, either.
                               
                              And if you keep saying "read your Bible" instead of giving direct quotes from that Bible that support your points, you're obfuscating.
                               
                              Persia allowed self-government, as in - set your own laws, governors, and style of living. Just cut us in on some of your crops and a bit of the trade profit. And send some warriors when I ask for them. Otherwise, be yourselves!
                               
                              ------
                               
                              Richard wrote: In modern times adultery was not considered a
                              major sin.
                               
                              -----
                               
                              By whose standards?
                               
                              -----
                               
                              Richard wrote:  In the Bible it was perceive by the covenant relationship to limit
                              children.
                               
                              -----
                               
                              Cite your verses, please.
                               
                              -----
                               
                              Richard wrote: You cannot impose modern ideas
                              of sin back onto ancient people, or especially as portrayed in the Bible.

                              -----
                               
                              You cannot impose fundamentalist Christian views of sin on the rest of the modern world.
                              http://www.jewishfamily.com/jc_a.php?text=/jc/holidays/yom_kippur/kids_and_sin.txt
                               
                               
                              Hannah


                               
                              "...Well, now that we have seen each other," said the Unicorn, "If you'll believe in me, I'll believe in you."
                              -- Through the Looking Glass by Lewis Carroll
                               




                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            • Richard Godwin
                              ... From: Hannah Miriam To: Sent: Thursday, February 19, 2009 4:55 AM Subject: [Death To Religion]
                              Message 14 of 17 , Feb 19, 2009
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                                ----- Original Message -----
                                From: "Hannah Miriam" <baruch_emmet@...>
                                To: <deathtoreligion@yahoogroups.com>
                                Sent: Thursday, February 19, 2009 4:55 AM
                                Subject: [Death To Religion] Re: Jews.


                                Richard wrote: Your lack of knowledge is showing: Numerous historians and
                                scholars
                                have written about this: the Yehud were a new generation from the no-longer
                                existing Israelites.

                                -----

                                From what "academic" sources are you finding those "historians and
                                scholars?" The things you post like this are primarily found in sources like
                                Stormfront, and fundamentalist Christian groups. Totally made up to suit the
                                agenda of those who want modern Jews to be pretenders rather than the real
                                thing, so that they are easily villianized while the people doing it still
                                can value the ancient Israelites.

                                R: There are a number of sources, but the ones I like best are from the
                                Copenhagen School, like Niels Peter Lemche, and Thomas Thompson, and the
                                Sheffield School, Philip Davies. These are on the absolutely opposite poll
                                of Christian Fundamentalism. And of course the primary resource is the Book
                                of Isaiah right there in your Bible. What do you mean by Jews as
                                "pretenders"? Pretending to be what?

                                Your supposed fact is right up there with "navel oranges aren't oranges."

                                Yehudim means "of the tribe of Judah."

                                R: The point is that the restored people were given the name Yehud,
                                regardless if the word is connected with Judah. You should know of Walter
                                Brueggemann. He is one of the most respected scholar on the HB and its
                                theology (his textbook for example: "Theology of the New Testament" in my
                                library), and for example he reviewed the book, "Approaching Yehud: New
                                Approaches to the Study of the Persian Period, edited by Jon L. Berquist,
                                for the Society of Biblical Literature. You can get this by googling. I
                                quote from the review beginning: "The word Yehud in the title is the term
                                used in documents from the fifth century BCE to refer to the territory in
                                and around Jerusalem that functioned as a colony of the Persian Empire. That
                                colony became the venue for the construction of Jewish identity and the
                                formation of a Judaism in which the inhabitants of the colony inescapably
                                engaged in a high-wire act of accommodation and resistance to the empire.
                                The book reflects an increasingly intense scholarly focus on the Persian
                                period of Judaism as the generative period for the formation of the Hebrew
                                Bible and the construction of Jewish identity." Yes, it is the Yehud who
                                wrote the HB, in the Persian post-exilic period, although some (like the
                                Copenhagens) think it was written in the Hellenistic period.


                                And you still haven't given the Isaiah verses that support your point,
                                either.

                                R: I thought you knew your Bible.

                                And if you keep saying "read your Bible" instead of giving direct quotes
                                from that Bible that support your points, you're obfuscating.

                                Persia allowed self-government, as in - set your own laws, governors, and
                                style of living. Just cut us in on some of your crops and a bit of the trade
                                profit. And send some warriors when I ask for them. Otherwise, be
                                yourselves!

                                R: It is apparent that Cyrus, known for his peace-making perspective and
                                abilities, led these people to believe they were being "restored" in order
                                to extend his influence throughout the area, especially against the
                                Egyptians. Of course, one could say "hoodwinked" the Jews, and if you read
                                Ezra-Nehemiah carefully you will see how he exercised his power over them
                                with strong restrictions, and also from Darius. The Yehud served Persian
                                purposes of hegemony and protection. Again as I said, they were allowed
                                self-government, but only as they would be useful to the Persians and
                                followed their directions.

                                Richard.


                                Hannah



                                "...Well, now that we have seen each other," said the Unicorn, "If you'll
                                believe in me, I'll believe in you."
                                -- Through the Looking Glass by Lewis Carroll





                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



                                ------------------------------------

                                Yahoo! Groups Links





                                --------------------------------------------------------------------------------



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                                20:55:00
                              • Hannah Miriam
                                Richard wrote: You should know of Walter Brueggemann.   ...   Yep, like I thought... fundamentalist Christian.   ... Richard wrote: I thought you knew your
                                Message 15 of 17 , Feb 21, 2009
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                                  Richard wrote: You should know of Walter
                                  Brueggemann.
                                   
                                  ----
                                   
                                  Yep, like I thought... fundamentalist Christian.
                                   
                                  ----
                                  Richard wrote: I thought you knew your Bible.

                                  ----
                                   
                                  You're still obfuscating.
                                   
                                  Hannah


                                  "...Well, now that we have seen each other," said the Unicorn, "If you'll believe in me, I'll believe in you."
                                  -- Through the Looking Glass by Lewis Carroll
                                   




                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                • Richard Godwin
                                  ... From: Hannah Miriam To: Sent: Saturday, February 21, 2009 6:23 AM Subject: [Death To Religion]
                                  Message 16 of 17 , Feb 21, 2009
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                                    ----- Original Message -----
                                    From: "Hannah Miriam" <baruch_emmet@...>
                                    To: <deathtoreligion@yahoogroups.com>
                                    Sent: Saturday, February 21, 2009 6:23 AM
                                    Subject: [Death To Religion] Re: Jews.


                                    Richard wrote: You should know of Walter
                                    Brueggemann.

                                    ----

                                    Yep, like I thought... fundamentalist Christian.

                                    R: WRONG. He is far from a fundamentalist.

                                    Richard.
                                  • Richard Godwin
                                    Hannah didn t continue with the Yehud, but I thought I would explain more fully: The Yehud, as a Babylonian province (the Neo-Babylonians), replaced the
                                    Message 17 of 17 , Feb 21, 2009
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                                      Hannah didn't continue with the Yehud, but I thought I would explain more
                                      fully:

                                      The Yehud, as a Babylonian province (the Neo-Babylonians), replaced the
                                      Kingdom of Judah, from the Babylonian invasion. There were no "Yehudim of
                                      Judah" except as referring to former Judah. So then the Yehud was
                                      Babylonian Judah, with only about 40,000 inhabitants, this after loss of 60%
                                      or more (some say 75%) of the population of Judah (formerly 110,000) before
                                      Babylonian rule. The elite--priests, scribes, leaders--were deported into
                                      exile in Babylon. Some fled to Elephantine in Egypt where they set up a
                                      synagogue.

                                      There is very little historical or archaeological evidence for the period of
                                      Babylonian rule, just before the exile, or afterwards--just some pottery
                                      sherds that really reveal no useful information as to the history (However,
                                      the International conference held at the University of Heidelberg, held in
                                      April of last year promised some "new" archaeological and epigraphic, etc.
                                      evidence, but I haven't seen anything on this. I should look). But the best
                                      evidence, figurines, involves practices of both Judaists and the Yehudim
                                      worshipping the goddess Asherah, consort of Yahweh, although this was
                                      strictly forbidden. In the Babylonian period they also were called
                                      "Yahwists," of the Yahweh cult. For the post-exilic period, the "house of
                                      Yahu" inscription, dated to the fourth century BCE and discovered south and
                                      west of Yehud, indicates at least that a temple of YHWH was located in this
                                      area. But of course we do not know what kind of cultic practices were
                                      practiced at this temple.


                                      There is only biblical historiography, primarily 2 Kings and Jeremiah,
                                      showing that the Neo-Babylonians established Mizpah as the new provincial
                                      seat of Babylonian Yehud prior to the destruction of Jerusalem, and they
                                      prohibited the resettlement of Jerusalem and environs. In the Persian
                                      period the southern boundary of the province of Yehud was marked by a row of
                                      forts, and they registered the local population for purposes of taxation and
                                      conscription. But seemingly there was no marking of boundaries on the other
                                      sides.

                                      In exile, Cyrus's decree allowed the Jews, the following generation of the
                                      Yehud, to move to Benjamin, and thence to Jerusalem to rebuild the temple,
                                      with probably only a few thousand, mostly priests, but this alleged return
                                      left no imprint in the archaeological data or in demographic evidence, and
                                      there is no way to establish a date for the new settlement in Jerusalem and
                                      its environs. There is only the alleged edict in Ezra 1 to be an
                                      ideologically motivated fulfillment of the prediction in Isa 44:28 that
                                      Cyrus would rebuild the temple. During the exile there was a small
                                      population of the Yehud allowed to stay and not be exiled. So there were
                                      some Yehud Judaists (using Yehudim of Judah) who went into exile (probably
                                      most stayed, not many as most died), and Yehud Judeans who were "restored."
                                      These became the post-exilic 2nd Temple "Jews" referred to in the gospels,
                                      representing Jesus addressing them as "ioudaios", which should be translated
                                      Judeans instead of Jews.

                                      For background history, with some extra-biblical evidence, Assyrians
                                      controlled the area, and when Assyria was forced to withdraw from the
                                      Levant, Egypt quickly filled in the power vacuum. There were economic and
                                      strategic interests for Egypt's control of the region. Later, Babylon also
                                      developed strong interest in the Levant, so Babylon became a competitor with
                                      Egypt. Both empires wanted control over it for stability, each one against
                                      the other superpower as well as for gaining economic benefits. Egypt and
                                      Babylon were contenders for the Levant, and their struggle brought about the
                                      decline of Judah, signaled by the death of Josiah (according to the Bible).
                                      When pressures from Egypt increased, Babylon conquered the small kingdoms in
                                      the Levant, including Judah, so they could rule over the region with
                                      absolute control. The Babylonians attempted to create a buffer zone between
                                      Egypt and themselves.

                                      This outlines the continuity between the end of the Iron Age kingdom of
                                      Judah and the Babylonian Yehud province. The Book of Jeremiah (having gone
                                      through several redactions) addresses the end of the kingdom of Judah,
                                      during the Babylonian exile, and finally upon the return to Zion. The
                                      struggle between Egypt and Babylon lays the groundwork for the late seventh
                                      century, and the sixth century situation of the kingdom of Judah.

                                      Richard.
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