Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

[Death To Religion] Re: Dear Hannah

Expand Messages
  • kschwiebert@prodigy.net
    I am sure that Jews around the world will be gratified to know of your respect for their imperfect religion. How very tolerant of you. ... people(antichrist).
    Message 1 of 104 , Feb 5, 2009
    • 0 Attachment
      I am sure that Jews around the world will be gratified to know of
      your respect for their imperfect religion. How very tolerant of you.


      --- In deathtoreligion@yahoogroups.com, a a <Praesto12@...> wrote:
      >
      >  I pray to God, literally, that Israel(the one beacon of hope in the
      > > middle east) never bows a knee to the contemporary Roman Kingdom
      > > that is E.U. or any other "global'' political body.
      >
      > Why would that be?
      >  
      > Because that would be an act of God's people bowing to Satan's
      people(antichrist).
      > In Scripture the Anti-Christ is going to come in an illusion of
      peace, as an "uniter."
      > The pretense of Peace through some political body other than a
      Christ centered view point will fail with horrible results. Just look
      at human history. This World, you, me and pretty much everything is
      broken and falling apart. Morally, Our hope to get out of this moral
      stupidity is to turn to something Greater than ourselves, which is God
      (Christ). You and I have no hope outside of that option, not buddha,
      not Dawkins, but Christ.
      >
      > Because you want the apocalypse to happen? You want the Jews to go
      to
      > war with the Arabs and get killed and sent to hell for not accepting
      > Jesus?
      >  
      > Truthfully I don't want anyone to go to hell, not even my enemies.
      Also, I do not know the final destiny of anyone but I pray that in
      this life and the one to come that they can find the peace,logic, and
      coherence that Christ brings. The Koran and Torah are powerful in
      many ways, but incomplete. We can't be prefect by our own deeds and
      neither can me or you. 
      >
      >
      >
      > > I am always impressed with the ease that Athiest label Religious
      as
      > irrational when in fact Atheism is blind,dangerous and literally
      > incoherent. The Jewish tradition, though often wrong, is incredibly
      > well read and intellectual and will out live every Atheist that is
      or
      > will live.
      >
      >
      > --- On Tue, 2/3/09, bestonnet_00 <no_reply@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
      >
      >
      > From: bestonnet_00 <no_reply@yahoogroups.com>
      > Subject: [Death To Religion] Re: Dear Hannah
      > To: deathtoreligion@yahoogroups.com
      > Date: Tuesday, February 3, 2009, 4:53 AM
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > --- In deathtoreligion@ yahoogroups. com, a a <Praesto12@ ..> wrote:
      > >
      > > I pray to God, literally, that Israel(the one beacon of hope in
      the
      > > middle east) never bows a knee to the contemporary Roman Kingdom
      > > that is E.U. or any other "global'' political body.
      >
      > Why would that be?
      >
      > Because you want the apocalypse to happen? You want the Jews to go
      to
      > war with the Arabs and get killed and sent to hell for not accepting
      > Jesus?
      >
      > Don't worry too much, the Israelis are figuring out what the real
      > reasons for much of the US support for them is (and even the hawks
      > there are distancing themselves from US ultra-Christians) .
      >
      > > I am always impressed with the ease that Athiest label Religious
      as
      > irrational when in fact Atheism is blind,dangerous and literally
      > incoherent. The Jewish tradition, though often wrong, is incredibly
      > well read and intellectual and will out live every Atheist that is
      or
      > will live.
      > >
      > > --- On Sun, 2/1/09, kschwiebert@ ... <schwbert_98@ ...> wrote:
      > >
      > >
      > > From: kschwiebert@ ... <schwbert_98@ ...>
      > > Subject: [Death To Religion] Re: Dear Hannah
      > > To: deathtoreligion@ yahoogroups. com
      > > Date: Sunday, February 1, 2009, 1:06 PM
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > Just to be clear, the only thing I am "anti" is theism, in all
      > > forms. Arabs are semites too, aren't they?
      > > Do you think it is possible for Jerusalem, at least the Old City,
      > > to become a UN Administrated "international city", in the
      interest of
      > > world peace?
      > > The West Bank is already teeming with "settlements"
      > > and "checkpoints" , so is a 2 state solution now impossible?
      Would
      > > these Israeli "settlers" be OK living under Palestinian rule? I
      doubt
      > > it. Would Israel force them to move back within the borders? Not
      > > likely.
      > > Given these seemingly intractable problems, what is the end game?
      > > LMAO? I had to look that one up. My point is this and I do not
      > > think it is funny. There is a difference between "Law" be it
      > > international law or domestic, and "documentation" biblical or
      > > archeological. The unbroken presence of Jews in the Holy Land,
      while
      > > interesting, is not a legal or moral argument. If it was, then
      there
      > > are dozens of other places on earth which could be "claimed".
      Let's
      > > start with Native Americans.
      > > In practical terms, our involvement in the Middle East is costing
      > > the USA a fortune and we are now bankrupt. We don't need to
      defend
      > > the supply lines for oil anymore. Surely the Arab states will be
      > > happy to continue the sale of it to us, since we consume 25% of
      the
      > > world supply. What remains is some kind of moral imperative
      because
      > > Israel is our ally and the "only democracy" in the region (not
      true
      > > anymore I guess since Iraq now votes). Israel risks losing the
      moral
      > > imperative if we keep seeing actions like the recent ones in
      Gaza,
      > > and if we do not see a good faith effort to bring an end to the
      > > Israel-Palestine issue. Cellphone cameras and the web give us a
      front
      > > row seat now. The USA pays a very heavy price for its support of
      > > Israel. Israel can easily defend itself, thanks to us. They have
      not
      > > had a credible threat since 1973, and we brokered their peace
      with
      > > Egypt.
      > > When will Israel start acting like an ally? When will non Jewish
      > > critics be allowed to state their opinion without being called
      anti-
      > > semitic? When will Jews who are also troubled with Israel's
      policies
      > > stop being labeled as "self-hating" ?
      > > Thanks for listening. I look forward to hearing your thoughts.
      > >
      > >
      > > --- In deathtoreligion@ yahoogroups. com, Hannah Miriam
      > > <baruch_emmet@ ...> wrote:
      > > >
      > > > kschwiebert wrote: Are you suggesting then that Jews do not
      suffer
      > > from the same
      > > > delusion, or that only some, less studious Jews are prone to
      it?
      > > >  
      > > > -------
      > > >  
      > > > I am saying that individual people are either more or less
      prone to
      > > delusion in these regards, and that, in some religions such as
      > > Judaism (as well as some Oriental forms), there is a reduced
      tendency
      > > for delusion and more of a tendency toward rational examination.
      > > >  
      > > > Other religions are not Christianity minus Christ... they are
      > > totally other religions.
      > > >  
      > > > -----
      > > >
      > > > kschwiebert wrote: How do you explain the many passages in The
      > > Torah where God is described as having human characteristics,
      such as
      > > emotion? Would Rabbinical
      > > > scholars say that this is all allegory?
      > > >  
      > > > -----
      > > >  
      > > > We often give storms and other natural events anthropomorphic
      > > qualities when describing them. Does that make the storm any less
      a
      > > storm? We attribute anthropomorphic emotional and motivational
      > > qualities to the other living creatures around us. Is a cat any
      less
      > > a cat because we label her behaviors based on our own emotions
      and
      > > motivations?
      > > >  
      > > > We use what we know as a base to describe what we do not know.
      > > Metaphor and simile are foundations for the learning of all
      abstract
      > > concepts.
      > > >  
      > > > Jews recognize that G-d is not definable... yet even saying
      that G-
      > > d is not definable, defines G-d in some way, and therefore is
      also
      > > inaccurate. There is no truly accurate language one can use when
      > > discussing G-d, because G-d is beyond the limits of our language.
      > > >  
      > > > For the purposes of understanding the relationship between the
      > > forms and events that are Created, their possible purposes, and
      our
      > > interactions with them, we anthropomorphize the whole thing. It
      gives
      > > us language with which to discuss, learn, and grow.
      > > >  
      > > > Therefore, you will hear Jews talk Torah in terms of the
      language
      > > being absolutely accurate... but it is within the context of how
      > > things relate to what we, as humans, need in order to live our
      lives
      > > as positively and constructively as possible.
      > > >  
      > > > ------
      > > >  
      > > > kschwiebert wrote: My problem with Judaism is two-fold. One, it
      is
      > > based on a
      > > > bloodline and is not welcoming to non-Semitic people. True, you
      can
      > > > convert to it, but those who do are still not fully accepted.
      > > >  
      > > > ------
      > > >  
      > > > The bloodline aspect has to do with how it all started, and
      because
      > > becoming Jewish is more than taking on a religion. Those who are
      not
      > > bloodline, who convert fully, are indeed welcomed. It is those
      > > seeking conversion, and who are recently converted, who are put
      > > through a wringer. And there is the Levitical line, required by
      Law
      > > to remain as pure as possible due to hereditary duties.
      > > >  
      > > > The key to understanding this whole thing is the story of Ruth,
      > > grandmother of David.
      > > >  
      > > > This apparent initial "hostility" to new converts is because
      any
      > > Gentile can be Noahide, regardless of their background and
      additional
      > > religious beliefs, and be righteous. Jews do not believe that one
      > > must be Jewish to be connected to the Divine. So why convert?
      > > >  
      > > > Becoming Jewish means taking on a heck of a lot more than some
      > > prayers and a point of view regarding the nature of the Divine.
      If
      > > someone wants it, they better want it really, really intensely.
      > > >  
      > > > ------
      > > >  
      > > > kschwiebert wrote:  Two, it has been conflated with politics,
      using
      > > unproven Biblical narratives to lay claim to lands which do not
      > > legally belong to them.
      > > >  
      > > > -------
      > > >  
      > > > LMAO!!!!! Well, now, that depends on who is telling the story,
      now,
      > > isn't it?
      > > >  
      > > > The difference being, that those seeking to contest Jewish
      claims
      > > of Jerusalem as home, are doing so with stuff that is heavily
      > > fictitionalized. .. then they project their own motivations and
      > > leaning toward fiction, on those they are are seeking to destroy.
      > > >  
      > > > The difference being, Jews have documentation and a continuum
      of
      > > family history, both from us and from those non-Jews who lived at
      > > those times, showing our ancestors were pervasive and ongoing in
      that
      > > land. Genetics studies, linguistic studies, and so on, all show
      the
      > > commonality of Jewish ancestry and a strong tie to the area
      > > around Jerusalem.  There are Jewish communities in Israel who
      never
      > > were forced into Diaspora in Roman times, too, that quietly
      welcomed
      > > their bretheren home with open arms starting in the 1800's when
      > > people started a steady, small stream of returning. The
      cohesiveness
      > > of the tales from around the world, by peoples separated by
      millenia
      > > of time, is pretty conclusive.
      > > >  
      > > > Anti-semites make up all sorts of stuff, in order to justify
      hating
      > > Jews. I would hope you are more intelligent than that.
      > > >  
      > > > ------
      > > >  
      > > > kschwiebert wrote: Not all Jews are Zionists, but this global
      > > flashpoint may consume all of us before it is resolved and
      frankly, I
      > > am a little tired of seeing my tax dollars going to blow small
      > > children to bits and keep Palestinians in what amounts to
      > > concentration camps.
      > > >  
      > > > -----
      > > >  
      > > > How sad that you fall so easily for propaganda from anti-
      Semites.
      > > >  
      > > > Modern Jews that are not "Zionists" tend to live in areas where
      > > they have lived safe, comfortable lives with few encounters with
      anti-
      > > Semitism... often acculturated to their local communities (e.g.
      > > American first, Jewish second)... and therefore do not see a need
      for
      > > a homeland since the community they live in is currently their
      home,
      > > safe and secure.
      > > >  
      > > > All it takes is a good dose of direct anti-Semitic real-life
      > > experience to change their minds, quickly now since those who
      turned
      > > a blind, disbelieving eye to the situation when it crops
      up, don't
      > > survive long.
      > > >  
      > > > And in the land itself...
      > > >  
      > > > Paelestians chose their situation... they started out with just
      > > about the same as the Jews in the 1940's and 1950's, and have
      spent
      > > their time whining and blowing things up, rather than building. 
      It
      > > is the other Moslem nations, egging them on, funding their
      > > extremists, and refusing to accept Jews as legitimate neighbors
      or
      > > even as people with the right to exist, that are causing the
      problems.
      > > >  
      > > > I'd suggest you actually check your facts somewhere other than
      Fox
      > > news and the BBC.
      > > >  
      > > > Hannah
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >  
      > > > "...Well, now that we have seen each other," said the
      Unicorn, "If
      > > you'll believe in me, I'll believe in you."
      > > > -- Through the Looking Glass by Lewis Carroll
      > > >  
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      > > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      > >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >
    • Richard Godwin
      Nope. I have no agenda. What agenda do you think I have. And apparently you have no sufficient answers to my refuting your arguments and the arguments I
      Message 104 of 104 , Feb 22, 2009
      • 0 Attachment
        Nope. I have no agenda. What agenda do you think I have. And apparently
        you have no sufficient answers to my refuting your arguments and the
        arguments I have given, about everything we have talked about. Why do you
        suppose? YOUR agenda?

        Richard.


        ----- Original Message -----
        From: "Hannah Miriam" <baruch_emmet@...>
        To: <deathtoreligion@yahoogroups.com>
        Sent: Sunday, February 22, 2009 9:49 AM
        Subject: [Death To Religion] Re: Dear Hannah


        Richard - you are projecting intent into my comments that it does not
        contain.

        You are blinded by your own agenda.

        Hannah


        "...Well, now that we have seen each other," said the Unicorn, "If you'll
        believe in me, I'll believe in you."
        -- Through the Looking Glass by Lewis Carroll





        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



        ------------------------------------

        Yahoo! Groups Links





        --------------------------------------------------------------------------------



        No virus found in this incoming message.
        Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
        Version: 8.0.237 / Virus Database: 270.11.2/1965 - Release Date: 02/21/09
        15:36:00
      Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.