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  • bestonnet_00
    ... Much of the scientific knowledge in the Qu ran was from the Greeks, there s nothing in it that people in that time would not have already thought. As for
    Message 1 of 2 , Jan 29, 2008
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      --- In deathtoreligion@yahoogroups.com, Martín Segovia <martsego@...>
      > By quoting scientific discoveries with a religious deformation and
      > by knowingly mistranslating words in their holy book, the Quran, to
      > make it say things ancient people couldn't possibly know, muslim
      > apologists show the typical dishonesty that fanaticism puts in those
      > poor people's minds, by which they don't hesitate to lie, cheat,
      > distort, invent, if it suits them to get gullible or troubled folks
      > to become converts to their faith.

      Much of the 'scientific' knowledge in the Qu'ran was from the Greeks,
      there's nothing in it that people in that time would not have already

      As for dishonesty, some religious people tend to be more interested in
      winning a convert then in honestly describing their religion.

      OTOH should the person who converted discover that they were lied to
      they are very likely to leave that religion (same when people are
      coerced to change religion as adults and then the coercion is removed).

      > If that were the case, as atheists it shouldn't trouble us since
      > lies, deceit, irrationality, bullying, threatening (with the fire
      > from hell), intolerance, repression, have been and are the marks of
      > most religions.


      > But in the case of islam, a fast growing religion in mainly poor and
      > underprivileged areas of the world (its growth in the west is really
      > mostly due to muslim families immigrating to western countries),
      > there are some points that should be made to warn people about what
      > a backward and repulsive belief it really is.

      The only reason Islam is growing so fast is because of fertility (and
      it isn't growing very fast in the west) with almost no one actually
      converting to it from other religions (and even then most of them are
      probably forced).

      > If you are going to accept the Quran, you will have to be guided by
      > laws (sharia) meant for primitive people with a profound contempt
      > for women, that will make you obey obsolete and barabarous rules
      > that nobody in the world today should accept, such as the right of
      > men to marry several wives but not the same right to women, that
      > people should be lashed, beheaded, stoned to death in public for
      > 'crimes' such as adultery, infidelity, promiscuity, or have their
      > hands cut off for a number of misdemeanors.

      Islam is about the only religion left in which the primitive laws
      actually are still expected to be followed. Christianity and Judaism
      both have a lot of crap in them but pretty much no one actually
      follows the rules in there (not even fundamentalist Christians or
      Orthodox Jews) and no one has been able to set up a state governed by
      biblical law (though certain idiots in the US are trying their best to
      do that) whereas there actually are Islamic states that have Sharia as
      their highest law (although even many of those have made some
      concessions to superior secular morality).

      > A barbaric religion (THE ONLY IN THE WORLD) that condemns you to
      > death if you are a muslim and decide to leave it or if you commit
      > acts of blasphemy against its prophet Muhammad or its god or the
      > Quran.

      Well Christianity and Judaism do that as well but right now they
      aren't really enforcing their old religious laws (though they used to
      and there are still some in the South of the US who are trying to).

      > No matter how many Al Ahzar muslim universities exist, maddrassas or
      > islamic schools, that shouldn't fool anybody: free discussion and
      > debate as in the west ARE NOTadmitted there, only blind and fanatic
      > acceptance of all in their book or Muhammad's delusional nonsense
      > (Quran) or you will be branded an unbeliever and be lynched by a
      > muslim mob. No exaggeration here, it has happened and still happens
      > in all muslim countries.

      True, I see no reason to dispute that.

      > A religion that can be used to cause impressionable young people to
      > blow themselves up in the hope to reach heaven as martyrs (by their
      > own holy writings they should go straight to hell for the murders of
      > innocent people they commit),

      Actually it doesn't matter, they are unbelievers and therefore can be
      killed with impunity (be careful here, the moderate Muslims whilst not
      a direct threat (and much better neighbours than the fundamentalists)
      are wrong when they say that Islam is a religion of peace).

      > a religion that helps the oppression of women, a religion that
      > denies people's reason and intelligence if that leads them away from
      > the fanatic belief.

      Sounds like a lot of other religions (though they don't have the kind
      of power that Islam has).

      > It's not surprising that people in Egypt (like the Egyptian who
      > comes here once in a while to preach and post muslim propaganda), a
      > country so poor and with such illiteracy that no wonder ignorance
      > and narrowly confined thinking reigns, if you live there and from
      > early childhood don't conform, not only your liberty but your very
      > life is at risk, or for pakistanis or indonesians or algerians or
      > people at similar levels of lack of freedom and political progress,

      Indonesia is somewhat better than the others (actually it's a lot
      better, women in Indonesia almost always show their faces) though
      still in need of serious improvement.

      Although there are still a lot of faith schools there.

      > then all such propaganda may sound convincing and very familiar,
      > but to unprejudiced and unbiased western ears who study all that
      > with an open mind, it's all so preposterous, silly, ridiculous and
      > unreal that it is really surprising they expect many converts in the
      > west except for the immigrants from muslim countries,

      They don't really get many converts in the west (just the Muslims who
      come over already brainwashed into Islam).

      > western snobs,

      Very few, much of the supposed left wing in the west is pro-Islam but
      that's not so much a liking of Islam as a hatred of capitalism (since
      radical Islam is about the only thing left that actually opposes

      Most of the left wingers that appear to be allies of Islam are only
      allies in the "the enemy of my enemy is my friend" way that the US was
      once an ally of Osama bin Laden not in that they actually like Islam.

      > black americans (many of therm in prisons) who will grasp
      > anything to spite their political system.

      Yeah, religious groups often like prisons because they have a captive
      audience (and if there are religious gangs in prison joining one can
      often be necessary to not get beaten up or raped) so you do see a lot
      of religious groups try to get their crap into prison (not just
      Islamic, there are a lot of Christian programmes in US prisons, some
      of which use coercion and quite a few of which have been ordered to
      stop by courts).

      > If such people were to actually read the Quran and the absurdities,
      > backward notions, anachronisms, crudities it contains, and read a
      > life of Muhammad to see what kind of manipulative and self-serving
      > man he was, besides being a dreamer and forger of 'revealed' truth
      > like so many other such 'gurus' before, not only there would not be
      > any more converts to that backward religion (islam) but it would
      > start to shrink and be reduced to a minimum level, because people
      > everywhere want to be free and believe and do what they want, not
      > what they are told to do, think and believe, which doesn't happen
      > due to coertion and repression and intimidation, the tools more of
      > a Mafia than those of a worthwhile institution.

      That seems to happen a lot when people actually do read it.

      It wouldn't surprise me if it had already happened in Iran (eventually
      the people there will kill the Mullahs are establish a legitimate

      > (who is not afraid like Rushdie, condemned to death for blasphemy)

      Sir Rushdie you mean?
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