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Re: [Death To Religion] Re: [Life To Religion] Hello.

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  • richard godwin
    ... From: a a To: Sent: Sunday, September 24, 2006 7:08 PM Subject: [Death To Religion] Re: [Life To
    Message 1 of 6 , Sep 25, 2006
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      ----- Original Message -----
      From: "a a" <Praesto12@...>
      To: <deathtoreligion@yahoogroups.com>
      Sent: Sunday, September 24, 2006 7:08 PM
      Subject: [Death To Religion] Re: [Life To Religion] Hello.


      > In response to your statement.
      > By this do you mean a discussion on the nature,reality
      > and possibility of miracles or of that which would be
      > considered supernatural?

      You do realize I would suppose that there are two different meanings of
      miracle: that which is very unusual and unexpected, a mystery, an event
      that is hard to understand or cannot be understood. An event that was
      caused by divine intervention in the world, in the sense of contravening
      natural laws. Example of the latter God causing the sun to "stand still".
      Note causality in the latter.

      Or do you want to discuss the
      > historical documentations of Christ or would you like
      > to look at the prophetic,or historical realities of
      > the jewish community or of the bible?

      There are no historical documentations of Christ, but only opinions of some
      of those referred to in the NT (but not Paul); the opinions are
      interpretations of Jesus. You should not be referring to Christ, but rather
      to the man, Jesus. There is no historical documentation about Jesus except
      in the NT, other than some oblique references in Pliny; those in Josephus
      are known to be interpolations by Christians who had his writings. The
      external evidence shows that a man named Jesus was crucified. The Jewish
      community soundly rejected Jesus as the Messiah and reject the new
      Christians. It appears the John community was kicked out of the synagogue.
      The OT has no reference to the man Jesus or the Christ. The NT writers, for
      the purpose of establishing an historical tradition, used the pesher method
      of interpreting the OT to prophesy Christ. If you wish we can talk about
      Isaiah's suffering servant.

      There are a number of definitions of myth. One is: explanation in story
      form what cannot adequately be expressed in any other way. Hence the genre
      myth, story-telling, has always been the most important genre in religious
      scriptures world-wide.

      Richard.
    • Dr. Newton Joseph
      ... From: a a To: Sent: Sunday, September 24, 2006 7:08 PM Subject: [Death To Religion] Re: [Life To
      Message 2 of 6 , Sep 25, 2006
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        ----- Original Message -----
        From: "a a" <Praesto12@...>
        To: <deathtoreligion@yahoogroups.com>
        Sent: Sunday, September 24, 2006 7:08 PM
        Subject: [Death To Religion] Re: [Life To Religion] Hello.


        > Well I'd first like to say that Cookie Cuter Christian
        > is an insult.
        >
        > I am not aware of Cookie Cutter Christian
        However I know about Cookie Cutter Christ's






        COOKIE CUTTER CHRIST'S

        Submitted by New 10.



        Let me put something out there to ponder regarding Jesus Christ -
        WHO WAS HE?
        - He was born of the virgin Maya, who was considered the "Queen of Heaven.
        He was of royal descent.
        He crushed a serpent's head.
        - He performed miracles and wonders, healed the sick, fed 500 men from a
        "small basket of cakes," and walked on water.
        - He abolished idolatry, was a "sower of the word," and preached "the
        establishment of a kingdom of righteousness."
        - He taught chastity, temperance, tolerance, compassion, love, and the
        equality of all.
        - He was transfigured on a mount.

        - He was crucified in a sin-atonement, suffered for three days in hell, and
        was resurrected.
        - He ascended to "heaven."
        HE WAS...BUDDHA




        WHO WAS HE?
        He contributed the name of Jesus Christ. He and his once-and-future
        Father, are frequently interchangeable in the mythos ("I and my Father are
        one").
        - He was born of the virgin Meri on December 25th in a cave/manger, with his
        birth being announced by a star in the East and attended by three wise men.
        - He was a child teacher in the Temple and was baptized when he was 30 years
        old. He was also baptized by "Anup the Baptizer," who becomes "John the
        Baptist."
        - He had 12 disciples.

        - He performed miracles and raised one man, el-Azar-us, from the dead.

        - He walked on water.

        - He was transfigured on the Mount.

        - He was crucified, buried in a tomb and resurrected.

        - He was also the "Way, the Truth, the Light, the Messiah, God's Anointed
        Son, the Son of Man, the Good Shepherd, the Lamb of God, the Word" etc.
        - He was "the Fisher," and was associated with the Lamb, Lion and Fish.

        - His personal epithet was "Iusa," the "ever-becoming son" of "Ptah," the
        "Father."
        - HE was called "the KRST," or "Anointed One," long before the Christians
        duplicated the story.
        - In the catacombs at Rome are pictures of Him as a baby being held by his
        virgin mother.
        HE WAS... the Egyptian God HORUS




        (The ancient Egyptians also adopted the cross as a religious symbol of
        their pagan gods. Countless Egyptians drawings depict themselves holding
        crosses in their hands. Among them, the Egyptian savior Horus is depicted
        holding a cross in his hand. He is also depicted as an infant sitting on his
        mother's knee with a cross on the seat they occupy. The most common of the
        crosses used by these pagan Egyptians, the crux ansata, was later adopted by
        the Christians)

        WHO WAS HE?
        - He was born on December 25th
        - He was considered a great traveling teacher and master.

        - He had 12 companions or disciples.

        - He performed miracles.

        - He was buried in a tomb.

        - After three days he rose again.

        - His resurrection was celebrated every year.

        - He was called "the Good Shepherd."

        - He was considered "the Way, the Truth and the Light, the Redeemer, the
        Savior, the Messiah."
        - He was identified with both the Lion and the Lamb.

        - His sacred day was Sunday, "the Lord's Day," hundreds of years before the
        appearance of Christ.
        - He had his principal festival on what was later to become Easter, at which
        time he was resurrected.
        - His religion had a Eucharist or "Lord's Supper."
        HE WAS... MITHRA
        "He who will not eat of my body and drink of my blood, so that he will be
        made on with me and I with him, the same shall not know salvation." An
        inscription to Mithras which parallels John 6:53-54. This inscription is
        inside the Vatican... in the tomb of saint peter.)




        WHO WAS HE?
        Born of a Virgin
        His father was a carpenter.
        His birth was attended by angels, wise men and shepherds, and he was
        presented with gold, frankincense and myrrh.
        - He was persecuted by a tyrant who ordered the slaughter of thousands of
        infants. He was of royal descent.

        - He was baptized in a river.

        - He worked miracles and wonders.

        - He raised the dead and healed lepers, the deaf and the blind.

        - He used parables to teach the people about charity and love.

        - "He lived poor and he loved the poor."

        - He was transfigured in front of his disciples.

        - In some traditions he died on a tree or was crucified between two thieves.

        - He rose from the dead and ascended to heaven.

        - He is called the "Shepherd God" and "Lord of lords," and was considered
        "the Redeemer, Firstborn, Sin Bearer, Liberator, Universal Word."
        - He is the second person of the Trinity, and proclaimed himself the
        "Resurrection" and the "way to the Father."
        - He was considered the "Beginning, the Middle and the End," ("Alpha and
        Omega"), as well as being omniscient, omnipresent and omnipotent. - His
        disciples bestowed upon him the title "Jezeus," meaning "pure essence."
        - He is to return to do battle with the "Prince of Evil," who will desolate
        the earth
        HE WAS... KRISHNA
        (The similarities between the Christian character and the Indian messiah are
        many. Indeed, Massey finds over 100 similarities between the Hindu and
        Christian saviors, and Graves, who includes the various noncanonical gospels
        in his analysis, lists over 300 likenesses. It should be noted that a common
        earlier English spelling of Krishna was "Christna," which reveals its
        relation to '"Christ." It should also be noted that, like the Jewish godman,
        many people have believed in a historical, carnalized Krishna)




        WHO WAS HE?

        - God was his father

        - He was born in a cave or cowshed.

        - A human woman, a virgin, was his mother.

        - His birth was prophesized by a star in the heavens.

        - At a marriage ceremony, he performed the miracle of converting water into
        wine.
        - He was powerless to perform miracles in his hometown.

        - His followers were born-again through baptism in water.

        - He rode triumphantly into a city on a donkey. Tradition records that the
        inhabitants waved palm leaves.
        - He had 12 disciples.

        - He was accused of licentious behavior.

        - He was killed near the time of the Vernal Equinox, about MAR-21.

        - He died "as a sacrifice for the sins of the world."

        - He was hung on a tree, stake, or cross.

        - After death, he descended into hell.

        - On the third day after his death, he returned to life.

        - The cave where he was laid was visited by three of his female followers.

        - He later ascended to heaven.

        - His titles: God made flesh. Savior of the world Son of God.

        - He is "God made man," and equal to the Father.

        - He will return in the last days.

        - He will judge the human race at that time.

        - Humans are separated from God by original sin. The god man's sacrificial
        death reunites the believer with God and atones for the original sin.
        HE WAS... OSIRIS-DIONYSUS

        There is eight religions with stories of a world
        savior, born of a virgin, associated with a cross, which dies and is
        resurrected. There are five of them here. There is also Quetzlcoatl of
        Mexico, Odin of Norse mythology, and Attis of Anatolian Turkey. Who knows,
        maybe there are more, but no
        one ever wrote them down. Talk about a universal archetype!

        Humans (western culture specifically) have to have an answer to why we are
        here to make us feel secure in our own skin. The idea of just being here,
        and how we got here not really being relevant goes against our make-up.
        Life begins with a Hero's Journey - birth. The cycle of the hero is as such
        - Departure, Initiation and Return. The story of countless religions
        "savior" depicts the same. Each one of us has at points in our lives made
        the hero's journey, sometimes small and occasionally large. Therefore it is
        something we can relate to. Most people cannot cope with the idea that
        their
        god is actually them self (as they are a part of everything) to they have to
        project that which they are not ready to accept onto their deity of choice.
        And each deity demonstrates the spiritual quest variation of the stages of
        the Hero's Journey (perhaps the most overarching archetype of them
        all--departure, initiation, return!)




        Does this superstition sound familiar?

        Ancient gods who died and were resurrected include:



        Mithras (Roman)

        Dionysius/Bacchus (Greco-Roman)

        Osiris (Egyptian)

        Inanna (Sumerian goddess)

        Lugh, Cernunnos, Arawn (Celtic)



        In addition, many shamanistic practices speak of the shaman dying and

        reconstructing himself, and there is pre-Christian vampire lore (Balinese, I

        think) that says a vampire rises three days after his death.
      • a a
        Good Richard, you re not wasting my time. Thank you, I truly want intelligent dialouge on this matter. Even if you were to define Miracles or to try to reduce
        Message 3 of 6 , Sep 25, 2006
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          Good Richard, you're not wasting my time. Thank you, I
          truly want intelligent dialouge on this matter.

          Even if you were to define Miracles or to try to
          reduce the definition of a Miracle to mystery and/or
          God(something I'm not in agreement about) then you
          would still be opening the possibility of the
          supernatural or a God or God, would you not, and if
          you were(which you'd have to be) then you would
          certainly not be in an affirmative position of A
          theism. Thus you would be limiting yourself to saying
          you don't know; a gnostic. From here you can try the
          word play the George H. Smith purposes and we can
          discuss that but at no time have you adequately
          supplied a reason for Atheism,nor for "a death to
          religion thinking," which implictedly it would be fair
          to assume you are and if you are not then I'm
          interested in what you are claiming to believe or not
          believe. Also, if you are, again, reducing (which is a
          fair word) the stature of the miraculous to that which
          is unusual,unexpected, or a mystery then again are you
          not disallowing the thinking which generally arises
          from pure naturalism/materialism(we can define in more
          detail if you'd like). If you can not rule out that a
          supernatural phenomena is occuring in producing or in
          relationship to this or these miracles then why would
          you need to give two definitions of the word? I'm not
          trying to use too many words, but am I conveying my
          message clearly?


          From dictionary.com

          an effect or extraordinary event in the physical world
          that surpasses all known human or natural powers and
          is ascribed to a supernatural cause.
          2. such an effect or event manifesting or considered
          as a work of God.
          3. a wonder; marvel.
          4. a wonderful or surpassing example of some quality:
          a miracle of modern acoustics.
          5. miracle play.



          n 1: any amazing or wonderful occurrence 2: a
          marvellous event manifesting a supernatural act of God
          www.dictionary.com

          As you did not specifically cite your definition I am
          left to ponder wether or not this is an arbitary
          definition given in order to form the conversation
          about what a miracle is in such a way that you feel
          youre dispelling the influence of God,but rather
          reducing the "miraculous" to a mystery and therefor
          prematurally implying that myself, the Christian, is
          left to say that something mysterious has occured-but
          there is no influence of the supernatural more or less
          of God and therefore, implictedly, naturalism is more
          logical, which would be premature at this point.

          Sorry, not trying to be wordy, let me respond to your
          other comments in another email. We can discuss the
          prior more if you'd like.
          >
          >>
          >
          >


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        • ladymayhem20
          Hello I m new to the group I realize I must not know what I am doing...lol anyway My name is Mary and this is the group for me for now anyway feel free to
          Message 4 of 6 , Oct 30, 2006
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            Hello I'm new to the group I realize I must not know what I am
            doing...lol anyway My name is Mary and this is the group for me for
            now anyway feel free to reply.
          • richardson4212
            i m new too. what s everyone want to talk about? murdering religion seems like an impossible task, but i m sure we will one day rid the world of ignorance!
            Message 5 of 6 , Nov 5, 2006
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              i'm new too. what's everyone want to talk about?

              murdering religion seems like an impossible task, but i'm sure we will
              one day rid the world of ignorance! ^_^
            • kensharp81
              What makes you so sure about that? Also, when you state rid the world of ignorance , are you merely referencing the ignorance tied to religions, or
              Message 6 of 6 , Nov 6, 2006
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                What makes you so sure about that? Also, when you state "rid the
                world of ignorance", are you merely referencing the "ignorance" tied
                to religions, or ignorance in general?

                --- In deathtoreligion@yahoogroups.com, "richardson4212"
                <richardson4212@...> wrote:
                >
                > i'm new too. what's everyone want to talk about?
                >
                > murdering religion seems like an impossible task, but i'm sure we
                will
                > one day rid the world of ignorance! ^_^
                >
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